Blu-ray Players that support Closed Captions as well as Subtitles - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 06-05-2009, 04:07 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

I don't have a list, but my impression is that ability is rare in Blu-ray and DVD players. It might be easier to make a list of players that do decode CC over HDMI.

We're in the market for a new disc player -- really a whole new home theater system (though admittedly low-end -- we're trying to keep the total for sound system and Blu-ray player under $800). However, due to my wife's hearing disability, we need closed captions and subtitles.

Our current DVD player supports subtitles, of course, but some discs, like Dexter Season 2, when you select Closed Captioning from the menu, put up a note saying that the video supports Closed Captioning (specifically) and that we should enable Closed Captioning in the disc player. Our old player doesn't support subtitles over HD outputs. We really want to make sure whatever we end up buying handles both scenarios, without having to resort to watching DVDs via composite connections.

I have been keeping my eye on the Sony BDV-E500 or BDV-E800, but it isn't out yet, and so there is no one to ask, yet. I did check the Sony BDP-S360 manual, and saw nothing that gave me any reason to believe it would serve the need. However, the message quoted above is a reply to a message that seems to indicate that the Sony BDP-350 does.

Just to be clear: What we are all looking for is clear confirmation that a Blu-ray player (I want it to be a Blu-ray player) that plays DVDs, DVDs that do not have subtitles, but does support closed captions (like Dexter Season 2), supports the closed captions through HD connections. If you have confirmed that with a player, please let us know. Thanks!
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post #2 of 18 Old 06-05-2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

We're in the market for a new disc player -- really a whole new home theater system (though admittedly low-end -- we're trying to keep the total for sound system and Blu-ray player under $800). However, due to my wife's hearing disability, we need closed captions and subtitles.

Our current DVD player supports subtitles, of course, but some discs, like Dexter Season 2, when you select Closed Captioning from the menu, put up a note saying that the video supports Closed Captioning (specifically) and that we should enable Closed Captioning in the disc player. Our old player doesn't support subtitles over HD outputs. We really want to make sure whatever we end up buying handles both scenarios, without having to resort to watching DVDs via composite connections.

I have been keeping my eye on the Sony BDV-E500 or BDV-E800, but it isn't out yet, and so there is no one to ask, yet. I did check the Sony BDP-S360 manual, and saw nothing that gave me any reason to believe it would serve the need. However, the message quoted above is a reply to a message that seems to indicate that the Sony BDP-350 does.

Just to be clear: What we are all looking for is clear confirmation that a Blu-ray player (I want it to be a Blu-ray player) that plays DVDs, DVDs that do not have subtitles, but does support closed captions (like Dexter Season 2), supports the closed captions through HD connections. If you have confirmed that with a player, please let us know. Thanks!

Good luck with this. The question gets asked rather often and a list of players, both DVD and Blu-ray, that transmit CC over HDMI would be very useful.

They industry really dropped the ball on this one, which is odd given all the effort that went into making CC data. And I don't know why the ADA doesn't come into it.

See:

-Bill

Review older films here: 1979 and earlier | 1980s | 1990s | Combined reviews: Strange Picture Scroll
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post #3 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 02:43 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Specifically, disc player manufacturers dropped the ball, and the US government dropped the ball by failing to impose regulations on disc players that would require that the support both closed captions and subtitles. Furthermore, the US government dropped the ball by failing to impose regulations on disc distributors requiring them to support whichever approach (subtitles or captions) that they regulated equipment manufacturers must support (i.e., both if they wanted, but frak they could have just picked one, and mandated support for it, in the equipment and in the media).

The thread you referenced contains a good bit of cluelessness, AFAIC, blaming cabling for a problem that is properly the exclusive blame of the disc player manufacturers and government regulation of disc players.
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post #4 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 09:23 AM
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Sorry, my mistake. I posted in Oppo 83 comparison thread the other day. I had my Sony BDP-S350 hooked up via HDMI for audio but component for video. Closed captions at 480i worked fine. But I switched video to HDMI and I must have thought I had used closed captions via HDMI but apparently not. I bought an Oppo 83 and was going to return it because I thought it lacked HW to decode closed captions via HDMI. Oppo correctly told me that CC won't work over HDMI. So I hooked my Sony video back up via HDMI and confirmed no closed captions. Apparently component is your best option at moment.
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post #5 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
 
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Unless we can find a disc player that supports CC as well as subtitles.
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post #6 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

I did check the Sony BDP-S360 manual, and saw nothing that gave me any reason to believe it would serve the need.

I have a BDP-S360 and can confirm that it does do subtitles on BD over HDMI. Unfortunately I do not understand the distinction between closed captioning and subtitles, so I can not be helpful in that regard. I can tell you that it has never failed to display English subtitles on any BD that I have played on it over HDMI.
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post #7 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
 
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The distinction between closed captions and subtitles is very important, because many DVDs of television series (specifically) do not have subtitles. I don't know about BDs, but I suspect that they have the same problem as DVDs in this regard, but I can only give you concrete examples with DVDs: Specifically, with Smallville Season 5, or Dexter Season 1 or Dexter Season 2, are you able to see the closed captions? (The other seasons of Smallville, both before Season 5 and after Season 5, had English subtitles, but Season 5 only had foreign language subtitles, but no English.)
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post #8 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

The distinction between closed captions and subtitles is very important, because many DVDs of television series (specifically) do not have subtitles. I don't know about BDs, but I suspect that they have the same problem as DVDs in this regard, but I can only give you concrete examples with DVDs: Specifically, with Smallville Season 5, or Dexter Season 1 or Dexter Season 2, are you able to see the closed captions? (The other seasons of Smallville, both before Season 5 and after Season 5, had English subtitles, but Season 5 only had foreign language subtitles, but no English.)

Ok, I did a little research on CC vs. subtitles, and I see that CCs are decoded by the TV, not the BD/DVD player. Apparently they are only sent over the composite (RF) channel, not over HDMI. I have not played any TV series discs on the BDP-S360, so I can not say from experience what would happen with that type of disc, but I am pretty sure that CC would not be sent over HDMI.
EDIT: The BDP-S360 has a composite video (yellow) output jack but no RF output jack.
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post #9 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SillyConVal View Post

Ok, I did a little research on CC vs. subtitles, and I see that CCs are decoded by the TV, not the BD/DVD player. Apparently they are only sent over the composite (RF) channel, not over HDMI. I have not played any TV series discs on the BDP-S360, so I can not say from experience what would happen with that type of disc, but I am pretty sure that CC would not be sent over HDMI.
EDIT: The BDP-S360 has a composite video (yellow) output jack but no RF output jack.

CC will go over s-video and component 480i also.

-Bill

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post #10 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
 
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Originally Posted by SillyConVal View Post

Ok, I did a little research on CC vs. subtitles, and I see that CCs are decoded by the TV, not the BD/DVD player.

That is inconsistent with the intent of the HDMI specification:
Quote:


With the advent of digital TV and the introduction of digital HDTV services (cable, satellite, etc.) the responsibility of decoding CC has been taken away from the TVs and put into the various Set Top Boxes (STB) that are required for the majority of the digital HDTV services.


http://www.hdmi.org/news_events/index.aspx#CC So the Blu-Ray player should decode the CC, and introduce the captions as an overlay included in the video signal that is put out of the player. At least that's the ideal we're looking for. Why bother with the added expense of Blu-Ray discs if you're going to use 480i video connections?
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post #11 of 18 Old 06-06-2009, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

That is inconsistent with the intent of the HDMI specification:
http://www.hdmi.org/news_events/index.aspx#CC So the Blu-Ray player should decode the CC, and introduce the captions as an overlay included in the video signal that is put out of the player. At least that's the ideal we're looking for. Why bother with the added expense of Blu-Ray discs if you're going to use 480i video connections?

component should give you 1080i, correct? maybe not with cc though...
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post #12 of 18 Old 06-07-2009, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
 
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If the captions are already part of the video, it doesn't matter what output being used.

There is a tool for TiVo To Go, T2SAMI. It reads the captioning data, creates an overlay, and applies it to the video steam, so that now the video stream has open captions. Presumably, that is what the devices are supposed to do. The law requires this of STBs and DVRs, so there is no reason to think disc players would be unable to do the same, if they were fitted with the same bits that facilitate this within STBs and DVRs. There simply aren't enough folks who are hearing impaired, so not enough folks who would represent enough of a demand for this to be satisfied.
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post #13 of 18 Old 06-07-2009, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post

So the Blu-Ray player should decode the CC, and introduce the captions as an overlay included in the video signal that is put out of the player. At least that's the ideal we're looking for. Why bother with the added expense of Blu-Ray discs if you're going to use 480i video connections?

The DishNetwork VIP722 DVR does display CCs over HDMI for live & recorded programs such as CNN, etc.

To the OP: If you are interested in whether the Sony BDP-S360 will display CCs over HDMI, I suggest you go to the following forum and ask your question there:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1126056&page=7
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post #14 of 18 Old 08-01-2012, 04:53 PM
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If you want cc and you also want hd you have to hook up 2 players. Play all your subtitled content through the blu-ray via hdmi and then add a 2nd blu-ray or cheapie dvd player and hook the video directly to your tv using either composite or component so the tv itself can decode the cc. This is the only way I have found to work without buying a $2,000.00 box.
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post #15 of 18 Old 08-01-2012, 05:08 PM
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If you are using Handbrake to convert DVD video to media files such as MKV format, I recently discovered that it will convert closed captions to SRT subtitles which many Blu-ray players and other devices will support.

I'm sure there are other utilities to do the same thing.

That's a lot of work if you're not already doing it, though.

-Bill

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post #16 of 18 Old 08-02-2012, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by sloephuck View Post

If you want cc and you also want hd you have to hook up 2 players. Play all your subtitled content through the blu-ray via hdmi and then add a 2nd blu-ray or cheapie dvd player and hook the video directly to your tv using either composite or component so the tv itself can decode the cc. This is the only way I have found to work without buying a $2,000.00 box.

Two players needn't be required. I have my Oppo 93's HDMI connected to an HDMI input on my Panasonic plasma and its component cables connected to component inputs on the same set. I ordinarily select the HDMI input on the TV. If there are no subtitles available on a given disc, I'll switch to component to see if captions are present. If there are none, I'll go back to HDMI and do the best I can. If you're using a receiver, that will complicate things, I'm sure.
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post #17 of 18 Old 12-08-2014, 01:54 PM
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Not a matter or being enough people with hearing impairments, though that is about 10% of the population, and about 40% of us, who will lose hearing significantly as we age, and many foreign language speakers who use captions to help them learn and understand English, and many hearing people in families with hearing impaired people, and many people who the captions help when people on screen are whispering or mumbling ... let's see that brings us to almost everybody can benefit from captions from time-to-time.

More importantly, it is required by law, to accommodate those with hearing impairments.

Differences between closed captions (CC), subtitles, and Subtitles for the Deaf and Hearing impaired (SDH)

in general, closed captions and subtitles are designed for deaf and hearing impaired people to replace not just language, but also sounds (doorbells, gunshots, explosions, rustling in the bushes, etc.).

Subtitles in general only replace language.

Closed Captioning has been around for a very long time, and most broadcast programs are required to provide Closed Captions. Televisions (over 13"), since 1993, sold in the United States are required to provide a decoder for Closed Captions for programs broadcast over the airwaves (antenna).

Recorded media, like VHS and DVD generally contained Closed Captions, and the television would decode it.

The advent of the HDMI cable, which does not carry the closed caption embedded in the composite signal changed the way many televisions dealt with captioning. On most older televisions (1990s-early 2000s), if you played a DVD through any of the inputs on the television, the television would decode that closed captioning information from that DVD (or VHS). Recent televisions moved the closed caption decoder so it ONLY decodes signals from the antenna (broadcast), despite that there is no additional cost to design and manufacture the decoder downstream so it could decode signals from component, composite, and the antenna - I guess they assumed everyone would be using HDMI and subtitles for the hearing impaired (which means they assume we are going to throw out all of our old DVDs - my uncle still has some VHS tapes even).

Anyway, since HDMI does not transmit the encoded closed caption information and most newer televisions don't decode video sources (only broadcast sources), and many new televisions only have HDMI inputs for our a/v devices, that means that they only way to get the closed captions from our older DVDs to the new televisions is to decode them before sending them up the HDMI cable, so they become part of the picture/video (as someone else said, "open captions" or un-encoded).

Is this issue important? It is to those of us who live with, visit, invite, or socialize with deaf or hearing impaired people and would like to enjoy watching movies together. It should be important to hearing people, since a good number of you will suffer significant hearing loss as you/we age. It should be important to many foreign speaking immigrants, and to those of you who keep complaining that immigrants should learn the "American" language.

Why some people dismiss this as unimportant because it only serves a minority (a minority who cannot perceive sound), I can not begin to fathom the shallowness of those minds. It should be important for everyone who has any sense of community and fairness!
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post #18 of 18 Old 12-08-2014, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bicker1 View Post
The distinction between closed captions and subtitles is very important, because many DVDs of television series (specifically) do not have subtitles. I don't know about BDs, but I suspect that they have the same problem as DVDs in this regard, but I can only give you concrete examples with DVDs: Specifically, with Smallville Season 5, or Dexter Season 1 or Dexter Season 2, are you able to see the closed captions? (The other seasons of Smallville, both before Season 5 and after Season 5, had English subtitles, but Season 5 only had foreign language subtitles, but no English.)
Yes. I bought the entire Smallville series, and for season 5, we either had to play it on our old TV in the bedroom connected to our old BD/DVD player over component video, or play it on our computer, using the caption decoder in the computer's video player (then it could go to the TV over VGA or HDMI, no matter). Unlike our older TV in the bedroom, the new TV in our living room would not decode the captions from our old player, not even over component video cables. (so obviously they've moved the decoder circuit so it only works with signals from the antenna/cable connection.
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