ps3 blu ray judder 24p, any better players? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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I've a ps3 that I'm using for blu ray playback, but have noticed that there is a significant amount of judder in panning scenes. My tv's a 9th gen 50" kuro. I've read in a few online forums that some standalone players offer a better picture without this "judder". I'm not quite sure if they just output the pic at 50hz (with a 104% speedup or not, or use a pulldown method) I was just wondering if anyone knows which players these are?

On the kuro side, it accepts 24p and is supposed to scale it to 72 hz. I have however tried all the different drive and purecinema modes to no avail. The judder's still there. Can anyone help!? Moreover, I'm pretty convinced it's the PS3, as I put on band of brothers (with 24p mode on the ps3 turned off) and played the pic at 1.5 times and the motion was silky smooth. I suspect that it must have been outputting at 1080/50.

Any help or comments are much much appreciated!
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post #2 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 10:00 AM
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Ive got the same type thing on my ps3. I always just thought it was the 120hz frame interpolation mode I have activated on my projector causing the hiccups but since I have been using a Pioneer 51fd the pic is way smoother so it must have been the ps3 all along.
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post #3 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 10:33 AM
 
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Is this just 24fps judder, or is there actually judder in the picture beyond that? The PS3 doesn't have any judder issues when outputting 24p beyond the inherent 24fps judder which will be present on all film content because it's only 24fps.
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post #4 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I can't tell whether it's ps3 related or not, as I don't have a 2nd player to compare it with. The pioneer has a 72hz mode, which "should" make it appear smoother for a 24p source.

Any dvds being fed to it play silky smooth, as are any 1080p games coming from the ps3. What's really baffling me is that when I switch off the 24p BD compatibility on the PS3, and set the play speed to 1.5x using the remote it plays very very smoothly. Absolutely no judder at all! So, on that basis I suspect it's not a prob with the pioneer. I might try and get my hands on another player and see what happens..
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post #5 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 01:46 PM
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After going back and forth from ps3 and pio 51fd on certain scenes that had the noticeable judder it appears the judder is in the encode so I think your ps3 is fine. For instance, one scene in bolt I noticed it and switched over to other player and it had it in same spot as well.
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post #6 of 10 Old 06-06-2009, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks very much for testing that.
Was kinda hoping it was going to be the PS3, as this judder issue is none too pleasant to watch. So I guess unless some manufacturer decides to incorporate an "on the fly" 104% speedup (as SKYHD satellite does here in the UK) into their Blu-ray players, then it'll just have to do. Either that or I'll wait till there's a bluray player out there that can do a good job of pulling down 24p to 50/60hz conversion.
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post #7 of 10 Old 06-07-2009, 01:46 AM
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There is no reason at all why you want a player to do 24p to 25p speedup even if you're from region B.

The 9G Kuro can display 24p input at 60Hz (2:3 pulldown) or evenly as 72Hz (3:3) depending on what mode is set. For 25p/50i material it can display as 60Hz (!) or evenly as 75Hz (3:3). You're covered for 60Hz, 72Hz and 75Hz. So there is no advantage whatsoever in 24p to 25p speedup and you have additional audio speedup pitch problem.

No DVD player does NTSC to PAL speedup in any case - it just doesn't make any sense to do it.

UK TV has to broadcast at 50Hz but that is a different consideration from your needs. Displaying 25p material in 50Hz is similar to 24p to 48Hz in cinemas or 72Hz in your plasma in that they are all even multiples of the source framerate.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #8 of 10 Old 06-07-2009, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

There is no reason at all why you want a player to do 24p to 25p speedup even if you're from region B.

The 9G Kuro can display 24p input at 60Hz (2:3 pulldown) or evenly as 72Hz (3:3) depending on what mode is set. For 25p/50i material it can display as 60Hz (!) or evenly as 75Hz (3:3). You're covered for 60Hz, 72Hz and 75Hz. So there is no advantage whatsoever in 24p to 25p speedup and you have additional audio speedup pitch problem.

No DVD player does NTSC to PAL speedup in any case - it just doesn't make any sense to do it.

UK TV has to broadcast at 50Hz but that is a different consideration from your needs. Displaying 25p material in 50Hz is similar to 24p to 48Hz in cinemas or 72Hz in your plasma in that they are all even multiples of the source framerate.

I understand the 3:2 pulldown for 60hz and the fact that the KURO will convert to 72hz. However the 72hz mode has definite judder (albeit less than not using the purecinema advance mode). However, with SKYHD the broadcast over here at 50 Hz (with the 104% speedup) and the 1080 pictures are silky smooth (absolutely no trace of judder at all). So, if one could convert to 104% as SKY does, then that could possibly solve the problem.

So, when the Kuro is displaying HD material it puts the rate up to 100Hz. That's why I'm interested in a player that could do the 25p conversion. In comparison to blu-ray, the motion from satellite is basically miles ahead.

Or, can anyone recommend a bluray player that somehow outputs a smooth picture at 60hz? Then there'd be no need for the pulldown by the TV??
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post #9 of 10 Old 06-07-2009, 01:44 PM
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If the European Kuro displays 50i input as 100Hz as you say I suspect it is only doubling or repeating the frames, not doing frame interpolation (inserting new frames like LCDs) which I think you are alluring to. Are you sure how it does it? The new Panasonics doing 96Hz for example are believed to be repeating 24p frames four times, not generating 72 new frames.

Unless you are comparing the same film, same encode and the same panning sequence between Blu-ray and SkyHD then just saying the latter is smooth doesn't mean much. On top of that, you don't know for sure what processing SkyHD has done to the source.

Over here most people prefer a natural film look against a video look with motion interpolation, despite the inherent limitation of low 24 frame-rate.

player that offers "Motion plus/enhance?"

Which Blu-ray Players have a motion interpolation option?

White Paper - The Big Judder Problem and the Overhyping of 24p

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #10 of 10 Old 06-08-2009, 08:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Cheers for the links!
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