Blu Ray Player Synthetic and Real World Tests Comparisons - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 856 Old 12-25-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

avman09,

A properly calibrated larger screen does make a difference. I have seen this with my own eyes. I agree with your comment about the original resolution being 480i, but the rub is which player does a better job of upconverting/scaling this material and some players do it better than others.


Respectfully,
Willie

I would say some players do it far better than others.
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post #542 of 856 Old 12-25-2009, 09:12 PM
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What according to you is the difference between "high quality 7.1 audio" and "7.5 pcm/bs with 7.1"? What do you mean by "high quality"?
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post #543 of 856 Old 12-25-2009, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Ruined View Post

I would say some players do it far better than others.

With all due respect I have also seen them with my eyes and I came to the conclusion that while it is true that some players 'do it better' (as to 'far' it depends on how you define 'far') in lab tests, in real world watching DVDs on a 50 to 55" screen I fail to see noticeable differences between my players that include BD, HDDVD, DVD players. There is no point debating who is right about this unless properly conducted comparison tests are done. For a larger screen I suppose players such as the Oppo and other high end products by Pioneer, Sony, Marantz and Denon can in fact do better. I just thought the differences won't be too dramatic as the resolution is still limited to the original 480i.

I just acquired a BDP-320. Subjectively I actually prefer the PS3 for DVDs though I am sure in a blind test I won't be able to pick out the player every time. I also believe that since there are enough people telling us how good the Oppo is, plus the fact we know it produced the best test results, it has now got into our head such that when we finally pay the $500, we bound to 'see' the best PQ that we have already been pre programmed to see.

I am only expressing my own opinion and experience so people know not everyone share the same experience. I do have 20/20 eye sight when corrected with glasses so for those who have different opinions and experiences let's just agree to disagree.
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post #544 of 856 Old 12-26-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

With all due respect I have also seen them with my eyes and I came to the conclusion that while it is true that some players 'do it better' (as to 'far' it depends on how you define 'far') in lab tests, in real world watching DVDs on a 50 to 55" screen I fail to see noticeable differences between my players that include BD, HDDVD, DVD players. There is no point debating who is right about this unless properly conducted comparison tests are done. For a larger screen I suppose players such as the Oppo and other high end products by Pioneer, Sony, Marantz and Denon can in fact do better. I just thought the differences won't be too dramatic as the resolution is still limited to the original 480i.

I just acquired a BDP-320. Subjectively I actually prefer the PS3 for DVDs though I am sure in a blind test I won't be able to pick out the player every time. I also believe that since there are enough people telling us how good the Oppo is, plus the fact we know it produced the best test results, it has now got into our head such that when we finally pay the $500, we bound to 'see' the best PQ that we have already been pre programmed to see.

I am only expressing my own opinion and experience so people know not everyone share the same experience. I do have 20/20 eye sight when corrected with glasses so for those who have different opinions and experiences let's just agree to disagree.

avman09,

I do understand your point and it does have validity. It also depends on how educated (knowing what to look for or having the real world content to see the differences) the viewer is. I know in a lot of reviews the reviewer uses real world content (scenes from Gladiator, Seabiscuit and Star Trek: Insurrection) to point out these differences. So when viewing this content either the player handles it or it doesn't. This is why reviewers use real world content to validate the synthetic tests for the most part. There are player short comings that may never be seen by a viewer based on what he or she watches.

As far as the $500.00 I have no placebo effect or pre programming, since I own a player that cost more than the Oppo. If spending $500.00 causes a person to see something that may not be there, then what would spending $4.5K get you.

I'm not here to convince anyone. I was just stating what I have visually observed. There is no right or wrong; just different opinions. Also, my vision is 20/15 uncorrected.


Respectfully,
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post #545 of 856 Old 12-26-2009, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

As far as the $500.00 I have no placebo effect or pre programming, since I own a player that cost more than the Oppo. If spending $500.00 causes a person to see something that may not be there, then what would spending $4.5K get you.

So I guess you may actually agree that for viewers who watch a DVD movie as a whole, instead of looking for the differences in certain scenes they may not notice the difference in PQ resulted from upscaling. Now I assume we are only talking about comparing players that are known, and have been tested to perform reasonably well based on both synthetic test and real world performances. By the way, I do own a Denon player that I paid over $1,500 a few years ago and it is a bad enough performer that I can see the difference without looking for it. It was a good thing that my purchase decision at the time was solely based on its audio capabilities.

Thanks for being open minded and I fully realize my comments are solely based on my own subjective observations with limited reliability as I did not, and could not even do any side by side comparisons.
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post #546 of 856 Old 12-27-2009, 08:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

Thanks a lot, now I am going to be up all night reading this massive thread! I have now flipped between my 4 players many times now and the PS3 is definitely holding its own. I have never seen an Oppo in action but if there is a bet between the Oppo and my PS3 I would bet my money on no one can tell them apart in a properly conducted test using real world DVD movies instead of specially designed test materials. I am so confident because in watching some well recorded DVDs if the PQ gets any better it will have to be BD. It is that good on my 50" Kuro. I really don't believe a larger screen would make any difference because no matter how good the Oppo is, it is still only upconverting/scaling from an orignal resolution that is 480i.

just ran the ps3 through the sd tests in S&M's disc. it struggled with nearly all cadences including 2:3:2:3. Real-world performance was better than the tests suggest; there was some aliasing apparent - refer back to kill shot - beginning of chapter 2, jaggies apparent on bumper of cadillac, but it did pass the screen door edge enhancement torture test in chapter 3. more to come.
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post #547 of 856 Old 12-27-2009, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

just ran the ps3 through the sd tests in S&M's disc. it struggled with nearly all cadences including 2:3:2:3. Real-world performance was better than the tests suggest; there was some aliasing apparent - refer back to kill shot - beginning of chapter 2, jaggies apparent on bumper of cadillac, but it did pass the screen door edge enhancement torture test in chapter 3. more to come.

Many thanks to you Winston, you are the best, always come through!!
As an EE myself, I fully respect the validity test results. Having said that, I think AV nuts (me included with full confession) aside, most people will have hard time not seeing the great job their PS3 can do to their DVD collections.

I watched Master and Commander last night on it, the PQ and SQ were fantastic, no less than any of my other players including the newly acquired 320.

Regardless, I have absolutely no regrets on the 320 purchase. It is a good feeling while watching DVD, knowing that the player is among the best that money can buy. I just haven't stopped being surprised by the PS3 yet. Talk about low expectation (on the PS3 based on reviews/test results), that must have been the real trick that has worked well on me so far.
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post #548 of 856 Old 12-27-2009, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

Many thanks to you Winston, you are the best, always come through!!
As an EE myself, I fully respect the validity test results. Having said that, I think AV nuts (me included with full confession) aside, most people will have hard time not seeing the great job their PS3 can do to their DVD collections.

As an EE, you probably appreciate the energy savings in using a player like the Pioneer compared to that PS3...

CLau
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post #549 of 856 Old 12-27-2009, 08:44 PM
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As an EE, you probably appreciate the energy savings in using a player like the Pioneer compared to that PS3...

You are right. 90% of the time I use my DVD player to play DVD's. I only use the PS3 when I want to sit down and watch movies such as Alien 1 through 4, Die Hard etc., so I don't have to get up and change disc every two hours. I have no excuse, just lazy, but thanks for reminding me about the energy consumption. Savings aside, I should do my part in conserving energy.
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post #550 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 03:54 PM
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Hi Winston,

I know you're the Master at this stuff, any idea who the OEM is for this HP BD-2000?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...7BBTkwCjCECjCE

Edit: Searching around, a couple of posters on a Costco forum site seem to believe it's made by Liteon. I wonder if it's just the drive made by Liteon???

Thanks,
Mike T

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post #551 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mike-tee View Post

Hi Winston,

I know you're the Master at this stuff, any idea who the OEM is for this HP BD-2000?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...7BBTkwCjCECjCE

Edit: Searching around, a couple of posters on a Costco forum site seem to believe it's made by Liteon. I wonder if it's just the drive made by Liteon???

Thanks,
Mike T

apologies - it may very well be a liteon. the back panel is reminiscent of the jvc and the lg save the figure 8 power cord
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post #552 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mike-tee View Post

Hi Winston,

I know you're the Master at this stuff, any idea who the OEM is for this HP BD-2000?
http://www.tigerdirect.com/applicati...7BBTkwCjCECjCE

Edit: Searching around, a couple of posters on a Costco forum site seem to believe it's made by Liteon. I wonder if it's just the drive made by Liteon???

Thanks,
Mike T

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

apologies - it may very well be a liteon. the back panel is reminiscent of the jvc and the lg save the figure 8 power cord

Looks like one of the many Funai clones. However, the C7/C8 IEC connector (figure 8 power cord) is very typical of Panasonic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_con..._C8_connectors

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post #553 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 06:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

Looks like one of the many Funai clones. However, the C7/C8 IEC connector (figure 8 power cord) is very typical of Panasonic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_con..._C8_connectors

the figure 8 makes me think it might be related to the lg bd370 and jvc xv bp1 with a mediatek chip. any idea if a b&m store is going to carry it?

just downloaded the manual - not a figure 8. the remote does not look funai after further review.
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post #554 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

the figure 8 makes me think it might be related to the lg bd370 and jvc xv bp1 with a mediatek chip. any idea if a b&m store is going to carry it?

just downloaded the manual - not a figure 8. the remote does not look funai after further review.

The HP also doesn't internally decode DTS-HD MA. The plot thickens!

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post #555 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 06:32 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EWL5 View Post

The HP also doesn't internally decode DTS-HD MA. The plot thickens!

the front mounted usb port pulls me back to a jvc/lg/nad/mediatek deal, but can't sort out why it can't decode dts hd ma. funai loves sd cards and is very panasonicish in its design all the way from the magnavox to denon.
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post #556 of 856 Old 12-28-2009, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

the figure 8 makes me think it might be related to the lg bd370 and jvc xv bp1 with a mediatek chip. any idea if a b&m store is going to carry it?

just downloaded the manual - not a figure 8. the remote does not look funai after further review.

Costco has it listed on their site for under $140. I could not tell if it was another Funai clone, Momitsu clone or something else. If it has any relationship with the JVC BP1 with Mediatek chip, that's a good thing and it comes in at a nice pricepoint offering a 1yr warranty on both parts/labor. I believe the JVC only offers 90 days on the labor but correct me if I'm wrong. Also, if HP is actually going to support it, they should be very good with updates.

Strange that they omitted DTS-MA internal decoding on this player. I wonder how much money that really saves the manufacturers?

Edit: Just took a look at the manual and got a file error while navigating the pages. The file error made reference to Liteon BD-8520, tried a Google and coudn't find anything further on that model number. I do like the look of the menu layout and it appears that there are some decent video processing/tweaking options. Maybe this player is worth a closer look.

Mike T

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post #557 of 856 Old 12-29-2009, 06:35 AM - Thread Starter
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couldd the hp be what cnet was describing?
http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10155795-1.html
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post #558 of 856 Old 12-29-2009, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

My ranking in regard to performance is as follows:
1. Oppo BDP-83; 2. Marantz BD7004/Denon BDP-2010CI; 3. Pioneer 23FD/320/51; 4. Samsung BDP-2550/Sony BDP-S1000ES; * PIONEER KURO UPSCALING BASELINE * 5. JVC XV-BP1; 6. LG BH200/Marantz BD5004; 7. Denon DBP-1610/LG BD390;/PS3 Slim 8. Denon 2500/Harman Kardon BDP1; 9. Marantz BD7003/Onkyo DV BD507/Denon 1800/Onkyo DV BD606; 10. Panasonic DMP BD60/80/35/55K; 11. Samsung BDP-3600; 12. LG BD370; 13. Sherwood BDP5003; 14: Pioneer BDP-120

Hello Winston, what does *PIONEER KURO.......BASELINE* mean? Did you mean you rank the upscaler of the Kuro TV set 4th., along with the 2550 and S1000ES?

Thanks.
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post #559 of 856 Old 12-29-2009, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

Hello Winston, what does *PIONEER KURO.......BASELINE* mean? Did you mean you rank the upscaler of the Kuro TV set 4th., along with the 2550 and S1000ES?

Thanks.

sorry if this is not clear; i tried to provide a baseline for how well my tv upscales/deinterlaces 480i content.
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post #560 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 02:04 AM
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Looks like Denon has not done anything regarding speed in the 2010 series? 36 seconds vs. 13 to 16 seconds on the faster units? Granted there are some taking 40+ seconds... Yuck... if I *had* to pick a player today, I guess I'd go with the Oppo since its generally the fastest. Not a big Oppo fan, but Denon just can't get these players right.
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post #561 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 07:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Looks like Denon has not done anything regarding speed in the 2010 series? 36 seconds vs. 13 to 16 seconds on the faster units? Granted there are some taking 40+ seconds... Yuck... if I *had* to pick a player today, I guess I'd go with the Oppo since its generally the fastest. Not a big Oppo fan, but Denon just can't get these players right.

It does appear Denon's central focus on this round of players was not massive speed improvement. It appears that the Denon 1610 and 2010 are built by an OEM in China - likely Funai as was the 1800. It's my believe allbeit largely conjecture that they share basic componentry with this current generation of panasonics. They have nicer drive mechanisms, higher end audio sections and the 2010 obviously has ABT video processing.
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post #562 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Looks like Denon has not done anything regarding speed in the 2010 series? 36 seconds vs. 13 to 16 seconds on the faster units? Granted there are some taking 40+ seconds... Yuck... if I *had* to pick a player today, I guess I'd go with the Oppo since its generally the fastest. Not a big Oppo fan, but Denon just can't get these players right.

SledgeHammer,

You may want to consider one of the LG's or the JVC -XV-BP1 if you have a speed requirement. Also, can you elaborate on your comment Not a big Oppo fan? I would hate to see you reluctantly purchase the Oppo. (lol)


Respectfully,
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post #563 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

SledgeHammer,

You may want to consider one of the LG's or the JVC -XV-BP1 if you have a speed requirement. Also, can you elaborate on your comment Not a big Oppo fan? I would hate to see you reluctantly purchase the Oppo. (lol)


Respectfully,
Willie

Well, lol, I'm a bit [too] anal about my HT equipment. I used to have a Sony ES DVD player with a 2 SECOND layer change. That annoyed me to no end. To have a 2 second pause in the middle of a movie. I upgraded to what I have now, the Denon DVD-3930CI. It definitely solved the layer change problem, but it removed (or never implemented) the awesome Play-Stop-Play trick that jumped right to the movie (the Sony ES had that). The DVD-3930CI is pretty slow when it comes to menus and disc start up. You know, going from drawer close to going through all the menus, previews, FBI warnings, etc. Seems like it takes forever to go through all those.

I want a fast machine, so that would limit me to JVC, LG or Oppo at the moment. As I mentioned in my original post, I would pick the Oppo out of those 3, but I would do so reluctantly .

I dunno, Oppo just seems like a 4th or 5th tier brand to me. I know everybody who has one loves it and says it plays everything with no problems. It definitely beats the LG and the JVC in terms of looks, but it doesn't beat the Denons in terms of looks . Thats just a personal taste thing.

Like I said, anal, I know . I'm not purchasing any of the machines yet since this is 1st gen BDLive, so hopefully the next gen will see some speed improvements. Denon has never been too performance centric, but I'm betting the Oppo kicked their butts in terms of sales #'s.
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post #564 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Well, lol, I'm a bit [too] anal about my HT equipment. I used to have a Sony ES DVD player with a 2 SECOND layer change. That annoyed me to no end. To have a 2 second pause in the middle of a movie. I upgraded to what I have now, the Denon DVD-3930CI. It definitely solved the layer change problem, but it removed (or never implemented) the awesome Play-Stop-Play trick that jumped right to the movie (the Sony ES had that). The DVD-3930CI is pretty slow when it comes to menus and disc start up. You know, going from drawer close to going through all the menus, previews, FBI warnings, etc. Seems like it takes forever to go through all those.

I want a fast machine, so that would limit me to JVC, LG or Oppo at the moment. As I mentioned in my original post, I would pick the Oppo out of those 3, but I would do so reluctantly .

I dunno, Oppo just seems like a 4th or 5th tier brand to me. I know everybody who has one loves it and says it plays everything with no problems. It definitely beats the LG and the JVC in terms of looks, but it doesn't beat the Denons in terms of looks . Thats just a personal taste thing.

Like I said, anal, I know . I'm not purchasing any of the machines yet since this is 1st gen BDLive, so hopefully the next gen will see some speed improvements. Denon has never been too performance centric, but I'm betting the Oppo kicked their butts in terms of sales #'s.

SledgeHammer,

Oppo Digital is a small company, but they are far from a 4th or 5th tier brand. I've owned several of their products over the past 2.5 years and I've been nothing but pleased. I don't imagine that people are spending between $499.00 and $899.00 on a 4th or 5th tier brand.(lol) However, you must do what makes you comfortable. If speed is spearheading this purchase, then I would take the Oppo out of the equation, because in my opinion you would be buying more player than you need unless you have other reasons for considering the Oppo. Also, I wouldn't get too hung up on the looks (subjective) of any player, because it could lead you to a bad buying decision. Of all the players I own I hope to never have a problem, but if there is to be a problem I hope it's with the Oppo, because of their superb (not perfect) customer service.


Respectfully,
Willie

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post #565 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

sorry if this is not clear; i tried to provide a baseline for how well my tv upscales/deinterlaces 480i content.

Thanks, I wonder if anyone has ever put the Kuro displays through some of the same tests done on BD players.
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post #566 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 08:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by avman09 View Post

Thanks, I wonder if anyone has ever put the Kuro displays through some of the same tests done on BD players.

i have...there results are good, but not oustanding in respects of obscure cadences
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post #567 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

i have...there results are good, but not oustanding in respects of obscure cadences

I am not surprised as my DVD/BD players do seem to work a little, but noticeably better than the Pro-111FD in real world performance. So in this case real world performance is consistent with synthetic test scores, at least to my eyes. I have only one player that definitely cannot do as good a job.
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post #568 of 856 Old 12-30-2009, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

Oppo Digital is a small company, but they are far from a 4th or 5th tier brand. I've owned several of their products over the past 2.5 years and I've been nothing but pleased. I don't imagine that people are spending between $499.00 and $899.00 on a 4th or 5th tier brand.(lol) However, you must do what makes you comfortable. If speed is spearheading this purchase, then I would take the Oppo out of the equation, because in my opinion you would be buying more player than you need unless you have other reasons for considering the Oppo. Also, I wouldn't get too hung up on the looks (subjective) of any player, because it could lead you to a bad buying decision. Of all the players I own I hope to never have a problem, but if there is to be a problem I hope it's with the Oppo, because of their superb (not perfect) customer service.

Well, the DVD-3930CI was a $1200 DVD player . I am actually looking for speed + stability + reliability + picture quality + audio quality + looks. The total package. In terms of my criteria, I think the Oppo meets everything except the looks which is subjective obviously. Its not an ugly machine. The JVC and LG are ugly .

I guess I'll keep an eye on the BluRay and see what happens. Definitely not a high priority purchase at the moment.

Thanks for your input.
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post #569 of 856 Old 12-31-2009, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Well, the DVD-3930CI was a $1200 DVD player .

Ouch! I paid quite a bit more for the lesser 3910 and it is now my worst player for DVD upscaling (to 1080i only). I read the test results for both players and I recall the 3910 did just as well as the 3930 and in fact was among the top 5 or so, except it does not do 1080p. So I may conclude that the 3910 is a player that represents how far apart synthetic and real world tests could mean to human eyes. On the other hand, I still wonder if it is just my player (bought brand new) or other users share the same experience too. It isn't that it is bad, in fact it does do a decent job, but I could see visble improvements if I let the Kuro display or even the receiver (4308 Faroudja) do the upconversion.

Now I assume the 3930 is top notch as it has the Reon on board. I say 'assume' as oppose to should be' because if you look at the synthetic test results and stick with 1080i, the 3910 is just as good or slightly better (by memory, can't find that comparison table anymore).
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post #570 of 856 Old 12-31-2009, 01:49 PM - Thread Starter
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random one - anyone ever owned/tested a yamaha player? they are expensive for their featureset; curious...
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