Blu Ray Player Synthetic and Real World Tests Comparisons - Page 22 - AVS Forum
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post #631 of 856 Old 01-21-2010, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

I just was wondering.

The audio scores are not based on any actual testing just features?

I wonder if there are any audio quality differences.

over hdmi, not really. analogue, yes obviously.

my ratings have roughly a 25% swing based upon quality. i wanted to keep as much subjective debate out of the ratings, thus favored featureset as 75% of the score. read here for more info:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post17834186

as for the digital is digital debate, see my comment here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17937444
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post #632 of 856 Old 01-23-2010, 12:00 AM
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Hey Winston,

Are you planning to test out the new Denon DBP-4010UDCI? Curious if they fixed any of the ongoing issues like performance .
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post #633 of 856 Old 01-24-2010, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post

Hey Winston,

Are you planning to test out the new Denon DBP-4010UDCI? Curious if they fixed any of the ongoing issues like performance .

No, but pricey for me and out of the easy reach of a B&M store. Count on me checking it out in nine months when it's cleared out at $579!
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post #634 of 856 Old 01-24-2010, 02:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Mini Review of a certain new player and test results.
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post #635 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 05:05 AM - Thread Starter
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After enjoying the performance of the Oppo BDP-83 from the first EAP, I jumped on the invitation to be a beta tester for the Oppo BDP-80, officially released today. As a brief preface, I was impressed by the performance of the 83 in basic A/V parameters and also the thought and detail into the function of the player on softer issues.

The BDP-80 is the 83’s little brother still offering universal playback and blazing speed, but lacking the ABT 2010 video processor and a number of other higher end features such as 24fps conversion of dvds, dedicated stereo outputs, high end DACs, aluminum front fascia, backlit remote, etc. The 80 has a lower profile in its case and in faux feet similar to the Pioneer BDP-320. I mention this in part to look, but also due to the nature of cooling in this player. The vents are found on the bottom of the player and I do not believe there is a fan. That said, after many hours of use, I never found any heat issues, but some might want to consider avoiding placing this above another component emanating heat.

Like the 83, the disc tray is center-mounted, but the display is located to the left with similar light blue led display. The display is a bit more limited, but very much adequate in displaying relevant information. In addition to the rear USB point, a second more access-friendly port is on the left of the front fascia. I used this to play jpegs numerous time and found it as intuitive and easy to use as the 83. One can update firmware via this port or via Oppo’s servers from the internet. I found both methods easy and quick.

The player is not as heavy and the tray has a bit more give than the 83 as one would expect, but still feels substantial and is far from noisy. It does not exude quite the visual stature of the 83 – partly due to its lower profile. The design of both Oppo blu ray players is conservative and under-stated, but might not have the outright sex appeal of some of its marantz and pioneer competitors. That said, Oppo’s focus appears to be less on the look of the player and more the raw performance, which is a perfect segue into performance.
The player is nearly immediately responsive when powered off. I timed two to three seconds for the tray to eject when powered off. The Oppo logo splashes on the screen shortly thereafter and is ready to begin loading after roughly 11 seconds.

The GUI is identical in basic layout to the 83, but lacks some of the submenus of the 83. Some of the lacking features like dvd 24fps conversion do not appear in the menu and some of the video adjustment menu options are lacking (limited to Brightness, Contrast, Hue, Saturation, and Sharpness). Good news is it can be overlaid of the video, but does lack the cool side-by-side mode of the 83.

In respects of pure blu ray performance, the player offers excellent playback as most other blu ray players. I am of the school that bd at 1080p 24fps is nearly identical to all players for most people in normal viewing conditions. DVD is obviously another story and that is the $54 question – how does dvd upconversion performance compare to the 83 and other players? The short answer is excellent. While I think most folks will be able to spot differences between the 80 and 83 on larger displays, the 80 is an incredibly capable player on dvd. I will mention that motion is very fluid, which I believe most people will feel gives the image the realistic perception to the point of trite terms like 3D-like. The Player avoids deinterlacing errors in synthetic tests, and most importantly, in real world content. I will mention that the player did fail my Killshot screen door test like its big brother, showing significant moiré from the screendoor. That said, the I struggled to find any jaggies in realworld content and can confidently say this player offers nearly error-free playback. Were I to attempt to separate the two siblings in respects of dvd performance, I believe the 80 lacks some detail reproduction and edge enhancement the 83 offers. Once again, the benefit of the 83 is directly correlated to the size of your display in my opinion. I connected the two players to the 40” sony lcd in my bedroom and struggled to spot differences. On my 50” kuro, there were differences, but they were more incremental than clear and distinguishable. Overall, the dvd upconversion is excellent without a doubt and I will qualify that statement that the quality is excellent regardless of pricepoint. I would not lament the loss of 24fps conversion on dvds – I have this feature disabled on my Oppo 83 and opted not to use it on previous Panasonic players with a similar feature.

Compared to other players in its price range (Denon DBP-1610, Pioneer BDP-320, and LG BD390), only the Pioneer could keep pace on dvd with the Oppo BDP-80 in my humble opinion. The Pioneer BDP-320 and Oppo have slightly different images – the Oppo’s native image is more similar to the Pioneer with the progressive motion option dialed up. Both images are very good, but algorithms must take different turns in the way they get from 480i to 1080p. The Pioneer looks more film-like, the Oppo adds more fluidity that provides a greater nuance of depth. Keep in mind, the differences overall are a lot more subtle than I have described. I did notice that in realworld material, I ended up dialing up the brightness of the oppo and the Pioneer ever so slightly. For example, disc three of Deadwood Season 3 offers a few scenes in the interior of the saloons in dark lighting. The dialing up of brightness revealed hair that was really slicked, dark brown and not just jet black. This may have been more display oriented as my 9G non-elite Kuro lacks a lot of tweaking menus outside of the service menu. Overall, I would consider the dvd upconversion of the Oppo 80 and Pioneer 320 both as excellent, only surpassed by the Oppo 83.

The 80 offers a zoom function that allows one to stretch an image either horizontally by a third or vertically by a third. The function also allows for complete magnification of the image by a third, a half, and possibly one more size that my memory has neglected. The 83’s zoom function is superior in my humble opinion in options alone and possibly video quality.

Operational speed on this player is excellent. Hands down, it is one of the fastest I have tested. It loaded Casino Royale and Dark Knight in the 16-18 second ranges. These times are identical to the 83 and are only bested by the LG 390 and Samsung 3600. The player’s response to remote commands is excellent as well. The speed section is where there is little comparison between the Pioneer 320 and Oppo 80.

In respects of audio, the BDP-80 offers 7.1 ch analogue outputs and can decode internally lossless codecs. I found that I preferred two channel music on the 83, but the difference was slight and not apparent on every cd I played. I find the analogue section to be very competent – I will defer to some of the audiophiles for more commentary – audio is too damn subjective to wade too deep for me.

One can easily imagine the question will arise of “should I get the Oppo 80 or the 83? Is the 83 worth the extra $210?” Like most things, there is no easy answer. Oppo’s website’s product page is very clear that the Oppo 80 is not intended for large displays. While the term large is not quantified, I can offer that the differences apparent on my 50” plasma were less distinguishable if not indistinguishable on my 40” bedroom lcd. The 83 offers some features that might be critical for potential buyers outside of the overall video improvement the ABT 2010 might offer and the audio quality the higher end DACs bring. If your primary use of a player is BDs in a purely digital setup, the cost of the 83 might not be the best allocation of funds. If you have a considerable dvd library, a larger display, or a legacy receiver, the Oppo 83 (or even 83SE in the case of the last) might be the best bet.

There were many that hoped for an HDMI only version of the 83 in the 80. Candidly, I think Oppo gave most of us a lot more in the 80. It is a player in its own right with more versatility for a larger market of users. While the ABT2010 would be wonderful, its benefits are limited on normal displays and Oppo has enough sense to realize a transport only player would either cannibalize 83 sales, or with the cost of the abt chip, offer only a slightly less expensive player that would be out of reach for many buyers.

I feel this mini-review would be remiss if I did not mention market position and value. The latter is clear – there are few other players that offer the dvd performance, speed, and universal playback of SACD and DVD-A at this price point. When you factor in industry-leading service and product support, the Oppo 80 is a very compelling product for folks who can appreciate what it offers. That said, this product is not for everyone – a lot of the marketplace is comprised of folks sitting behind uncallibrated lcds in torch mode that will never showcase the video quality of this player. The wider marketplace of $300 players is marked by what I would consider non-core features like streaming and wifi connections on which mass-market reviewers like Cnet sometimes place too much importance in my humble opinion.

The basic reality is that while these features are not of utmost importance to those looking for excellent A/V performance at the $500 mark, they might be more critical for your average consumer whose budget is limited. While this might be a bit apostate to most A/V sensibilities, I would honestly rather have Pandora streaming over SACD/DVD-A playback in most cases…kids and wives tend to shift the paradigm from dark side of the moon to Christmas Rock Mix on Pandora.

All in all, this player is an exceptional value. Its video performance, speed, universal playback, and softer Oppo-esque features make this one of the leaders in the under $300 mark for those looking for high quality video and audio at a reasonable price. The only other player I would say that offers so much feature for such little cost is the Pioneer BDP-320, which is painfully slow compared to the Oppo and lacks DVD-A and SACD playback for roughly $60 less. These two remain my top picks in the under $300 market. I point this out solely because the biggest complement paid to Oppo’s work has always been BDP-83’s (and now the BDP-80) role as the venerable benchmark against players ranging from $250 to $5000. This player’s entrée at $290 will inevitably put pressure on more well-known brand name manufacturers like Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, Harman Kardon, and Yamaha to release players that offer more value, better performance, or both.

Oppo, well done on the BDP-80.
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post #636 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 05:53 AM
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Thanks Winston! I think you pretty much covered most of the bases folks may have some questions on, especially differences between this and the 83. Now if they would only read this and not flood the owner's thread for which they aren't!

Much appreciated and thanks again. Now only if Oppo would accept orders. I'm glad I didn't lose sleep like some have done though waiting and checking constantly.
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post #637 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:19 AM
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Thanks Winston

My question is like most likely the same as many other people..which is for those with "larger displays" mine being a 58" Samsung 650 series plasma,is the difference in the SD up-conversion enough to warrant going with the 83 over the 80..I would love to see some screen shots if it is that noticeable.

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post #638 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mac11700 View Post

Thanks Winston

My question is like most likely the same as many other people..which is for those with "larger displays" mine being a 58" Samsung 650 series plasma,is the difference in the SD up-conversion enough to warrant going with the 83 over the 80..I would love to see some screen shots if it is that noticeable.

Mac

I think you will begin to see the difference, but I don't know if you will necessarily see $200's worth. I have the 50" version of your tv and can notice some detail, but a lot of that is candidaly hinged on viewing distance and eyesight.

Screen shots are deceptive and misleading in my humble opinion. While they show detail, they cannot effectively show jaggies, moire, or motion. That, and my photography skills are crap!
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post #639 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac11700 View Post

Thanks Winston

My question is like most likely the same as many other people..which is for those with "larger displays" mine being a 58" Samsung 650 series plasma,is the difference in the SD up-conversion enough to warrant going with the 83 over the 80..I would love to see some screen shots if it is that noticeable.

Mac

I think it is going to depend on the individual - how much standard DVD viewing the screen gets, how picky they are about the picture quality on those standard DVD's, and how big a deal the extra $210 is for them. In making a final read through my BDP-80 review this morning, I came across a statement in my conclusion that said I would still recommend the BDP-83 for folks looking for a reference-grade BD player. The BDP-80 did remarkably well, though.

I had been planning to hold my BDP-80 review until I saw the OPPO home page update. I suspect that will not happen for at least another hour or so (it's still 6:50AM on the west coast), but what the heck - we know it's coming and Winston has already posted a very good review, so I may as well follow his lead. Here is my BDP-80 review.

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post #640 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:50 AM
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Winston: You did not comment on playback of data files from burned discs or thumb drives. Is that because you did not have time or is it that you don't value this aspect?

I am particularly interested in whether the new Oppo can play high level (5.1) mkv files without the pixelating problems seen on the JVC VX BP1. Also just what kind of data files the player fully supports or does not support....in practice..not in specs.

Thanks.

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post #641 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Screen shots are deceptive and misleading in my humble opinion. While they show detail, they cannot effectively show jaggies, moire, or motion. That, and my photography skills are crap!

I agree - both on the difficulty of using static screen shots to show differences in video performance and in my limitations in getting really good screen shots of a video display in my den.

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post #642 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by fafner View Post

I am particularly interested in whether the new Oppo can play high level (5.1) mkv files without the pixelating problems seen on the JVC VX BP1. Also just what kind of data files the player fully supports or does not support....in practice..not in specs.

The best place to start for that is Bill's BDP-83 FAQ, as the two share the same file support capabilities. Unfortunately, my library of audio and video files is not the most format-diverse, and I haven't tried the kind of MKV files you are asking about on either player.

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post #643 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

In respects of pure blu ray performance, the player offers excellent playback as most other blu ray players. .

Any comments (or can you test) setting the 80 to output 720p? I have a 720p projector and I'm curious as to whether I will get better performance on 1080p blu-ray discs, with the 80 downscaling (as opposed to my projector).
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post #644 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by gonk View Post

The best place to start for that is Bill's BDP-83 FAQ, as the two share the same file support capabilities. Unfortunately, my library of audio and video files is not the most format-diverse, and I haven't tried the kind of MKV files you are asking about on either player.

I checked the FAQ page but am looking for specific results on the 80 since I would hope that data playback would be better/more consistant on a new Oppo model.

Thanks.

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post #645 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by fafner View Post

I checked the FAQ page but am looking for specific results on the 80 since I would hope that data playback would be better/more consistant on a new Oppo model.

Thanks.

fafner

Media file support is identical on the two players. The players use the same decoder chip and I'm sure OPPO is using the same software for media files on both.

-Bill
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post #646 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 07:18 AM
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Media file support is identical on the two players. The players use the same decoder chip and I'm sure OPPO is using the same software for media files on both.

-Bill

Thanks. I guess that means that any firmware update for the 83 in this area would also be applicable to the 80.

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post #647 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 07:21 AM
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Thanks. I guess that means that any firmware update for the 83 in this area would also be applicable to the 80.

fafner

Not the same actual firmware, but the subroutines used inside the firmware.

I would expect media file support to stay parallel between the two players in the future.

-Bill
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post #648 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 09:41 AM
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The wider marketplace of $300 players is marked by what I would consider non-core features like streaming and wifi connections on which mass-market reviewers like Cnet sometimes place too much importance in my humble opinion.

The basic reality is that while these features are not of utmost importance to those looking for excellent A/V performance at the $500 mark, they might be more critical for your average consumer whose budget is limited. While this might be a bit apostate to most A/V sensibilities, I would honestly rather have Pandora streaming over SACD/DVD-A playback in most cases…kids and wives tend to shift the paradigm from dark side of the moon to Christmas Rock Mix on Pandora.

the above is an excellent and interesting point. I actually don't think (and in a way your final statement supports this idea) that Cnet places too much importance on these "non core" features, as for the majority of typical consumers they are actually more important. If you compare the universe of people looking for a "pure" high end movie player with SACD support to the universe of people with Netflix subscriptions who are casual movie viewers and will enjoy the convenience of streaming Pandora/Netflix/Youtube much more than SACD support.... well, I know which universe is larger!

The dilemma for me is that I absolutely DO want those features (Pandora/Netflix) but I also want an inexpensive player with source direct (so I can utilize the ABT scaler in my Denon 2310CI) or at least quality DVD upscaling on its own accord. But this seems to be the magical combination that is missing.... none of the inexpensive players with Pandora/Neflix type features offer source direct (or even top notch scaling), and ironically it's all the players with outstanding internal scaling that offer source direct, when it is less needed!

The good news is that I have a 50" plasma display and I agree with Winston that scaling differences at this screen size are miniscule and difficult to see. I think anything from 50" on down qualifies as "smaller screens" when it comes to noticing the difference between "good" and "great" in SD upscaling.... larger flat screens it probably becomes a little more important but still difficult to see depending on viewing distance... and I think the differences are only REALLY noticeable with large-screen PJ setups (100" +) when quality scaling of SD DVD can become very important.

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post #649 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 09:48 AM
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The dilemma for me is that I absolutely DO want those features (Pandora/Netflix) but I also want an inexpensive player with source direct (so I can utilize the ABT scaler in my Denon 2310CI) or at least quality DVD upscaling on its own accord. But this seems to be the magical combination that is missing.... none of the inexpensive players with Pandora/Neflix type features offer source direct (or even top notch scaling), and ironically it's all the players with outstanding internal scaling that offer source direct, when it is less needed!

The Samsung P2550 offers Netflix, Pandora, and HQV Reon scaling applicable to both DVD and NetFlix. Refurbs can be had around $150 + SH. Not the fastest player, build-quality is pretty pedestrian, and a few batches have had their share of QC issues, but it's been a solid player for me (now in bedroom use) and seems to meet your Netflix/Pandora + Higher-end Scaling criteria.

Also, with most players some clever remote macro programming can emulate source direct... with a Harmony it wouldn't be difficult at all to set up a different activity for DVD vs BluRay and let it select the output resolution.

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post #650 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 10:26 AM
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That would be one painful macro unless there is a direct button access to "output resolution" or something.... I would rather just change the setting by hand

I also have an issue in that my TV can't accept 480i over HDMI, and thus the EDID info gets propagated to my AVR and then the source device refuses to output 480i over HDMI because the AVR tells it the TV can't accept it... but that's neither here nor there, not really relevant to this thread.

You are correct that the Sammy 2500/2550 is the best option for what I described, however I am held back by (1) operational speed and (2) so many complaints of bad QC, HDMI problems, and flaky Sammy BDP's choking on discs.

Anyway, it's not a huge deal as thankfully, at my screen size, I can't see that much difference between scalers anyway....

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post #651 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 10:36 AM
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Personally I find it quite surprising that Oppo did not choose to include Netflix with the new player... that capability seems to becoming more of a default with the newer players............... or so it appears when you glance through the 2010 players.

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post #652 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 10:42 AM
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Personally I find it quite surprising that Oppo did not choose to include Netflix with the new player... that capability seems to becoming more of a default with the newer players............... or so it appears when you glance through the 2010 players.

The niche they're going for is those looking for a budget player with source direct and/or inexpensive Universal BD player with SACD/DVD-A. Those usually (but not always) aren't the same folks looking for streaming content. Also, I would expect DLNA support to be forthcoming which would open up streaming content via transcoding DLNA servers like TVersity and PlayOn.

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post #653 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 10:58 AM
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Steven,

1. I think you mentioned this elsewhere but, have you seen any video or audio differences in players when bitstreaming audio and watching blu ray?

2. Do you fall on either side of the pcm/bitstream argument?

I currently run bitstream to an onkyo 805 but being a first gen HD audio receiver their is a potential DTS bomb threat.
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post #654 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:16 AM
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1.) No, and no.
2.) I'm not a big user of bonus featured, but PCM allows for on-board decoding of two streams necessary for features like PIP secondary commentary. Based on NO difference in performance, if only for the odd chance that I MIGHT use one of these features, I usually setup using PCM. I'm not the type who feels the needs to see the DTS-HD or TrueHD light display on my AVR.

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post #655 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:29 AM
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Thank you. The general consensus I have read (from people who even care about details like this) is that bitstream has some unknown pop or quality to the bass when done A/B. Then again that is not everyone, just the people who care distinguish between the two
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post #656 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post

The niche they're going for is those looking for a budget player with source direct and/or inexpensive Universal BD player with SACD/DVD-A. Those usually (but not always) aren't the same folks looking for streaming content. Also, I would expect DLNA support to be forthcoming which would open up streaming content via transcoding DLNA servers like TVersity and PlayOn.


Hmmmm

Perhaps I am flunking Marketing 101 here... but that seems like a pretty "tiny" niche to me.

Personally I consider myself a bit of a "nut" as I have a dedicated HT... which already puts us out on a small branch... but personally even though I have many thousands of dollars tied up in electronics I have never owned either a SACD or a DVD-A.

It is hard for me to imagine that there are that many folks that are "into" SACD or DVD-A that could not afford the 83. If those codecs are that important to someone surely they would pony up the bucks necessary to support that particular addiction.

I would have thought Oppo would have targeted the broader market with this "new" player.

I owned three of Oppo's 973H models and enjoyed them quite thoroughly... however I recently sold my older PS3 so I could update to a BD player that supported the newer audio codecs via Bitstream.

Quality upscaling of SD-DVD's would be nice (as I am using a 135" screen) but I have an HD-DVD (HD-XA2 & A35) player that is quite capable and everything runs through a DVDO iScan Duo anyway... so I think I pretty much have the SD part handled.

I was just hoping for a BD player from Oppo (that had streaming support) because I think their Customer Support is absolutely first rate!

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post #657 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post

Thank you. The general consensus I have read (from people who even care about details like this) is that bitstream has some unknown pop or quality to the bass when done A/B. Then again that is not everyone, just the people who care distinguish between the two

You're decoding compressed (whether lossy or lossless) digital bits to uncompressed digital bits. Regardless of where it's decoded, it's passed bit-for-bit in the digital domain. There would have to be some poorly designed hardware or software involved to get this wrong, and the algorithms are provided by Dolby & DTS, so that's pretty much set in stone.

I'd question the validity of any A/B test that can discern a difference in the two with the same equipment and source material.

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post #658 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:39 AM
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I'm not the type who feels the needs to see the DTS-HD or TrueHD light display on my AVR.

Com'on Stephen...........

Those lights look so "cool" ......... at least if I open up the cabinet to check and see if they are on!

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post #659 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:40 AM
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Hmmmm

Perhaps I am flunking Marketing 101 here... but that seems like a pretty "tiny" niche to me.

Personally I consider myself a bit of a "nut" as I have a dedicated HT... which already puts us out on a small branch... but personally even though I have many thousands of dollars tied up in electronics I have never owned either a SACD or a DVD-A.

It is hard for me to imagine that there are that many folks that are "into" SACD or DVD-A that could not afford the 83. If those codecs are that important to someone surely they would pony up the bucks necessary to support that particular addiction.

I would have thought Oppo would have targeted the broader market with this "new" player.

I owned three of Oppo's 973H models and enjoyed them quite thoroughly... however I recently sold my older PS3 so I could update to a BD player that supported the newer audio codecs via Bitstream.

Quality upscaling of SD-DVD's would be nice (as I am using a 135" screen) but I have an HD-DVD (HD-XA2 & A35) player that is quite capable and everything runs through a DVDO iScan Duo anyway... so I think I pretty much have the SD part handled.

I was just hoping for a BD player from Oppo (that had streaming support) because I think their Customer Support is absolutely first rate!

Eliminating the cost associated with ABT2010 imemdiately targets a broader market than the -83. My comments about SACD/DVD-A were very much "and/or"... not just "and". They now have a player that appeals to those with:

Smaller Screens

and/or

External Video Processing

and/or

Lower Budgets

and/or

Any of the above + the desire for SACD/DVD-A

While still a much smaller market than what the Sony/Panasonic/Samsung/big-box-brand of your choice is targeting, you can see there are several enthusiast niches that the -80 hits upon.

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post #660 of 856 Old 01-25-2010, 11:41 AM
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I'd question the validity of any A/B test that can discern a difference in the two with the same equipment and source material.

absolutely, I have never heard of ANY well setup A/B comparison that heard a difference. there should absolutely zero difference (in theory) and things like "unknown pop" only tend to appear when the A/B tests are not blind

IMHO there is no "argument", they are identical. Find me a correctly controlled A/B test in which a difference appears, and then we can talk.

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