Your Opinion on Firmware Updates, Now and In the Future - Page 3 - AVS Forum
View Poll Results: What is the Future of Firmware Updates?
I love Firmware Updates, they make my machine better, Keep them constantly coming 0 0%
Firmware Updates are simply a necessity due to the inconsistencies of a new format 0 0%
Firmware Updates should only be for videophiles, A Player should be able to play all discs 0 0%
Whats a Firmware Update??? 0 0%
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post #61 of 74 Old 04-26-2010, 01:49 PM
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I'm just glad my 3 BD players do not require firmware updates any more to play new duscs (the the Oppo gets updates for added features). My Panny BD-10 hasn't had an update in 2 years and my Denon almost a year.

I think players with BD_live seem to be the troublesome ones... My Panny and Denon are not 2.0 (thankfully). My Oppo is but I've never wasted my time checking out the extra goodies.

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post #62 of 74 Old 04-26-2010, 06:10 PM
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I own a Sony bdp-s370. This model played AVCHD dvds created by SONY VEGAS software prior to update to 473 firmware. When attempting to play these disk after update "CANNOT PLAYBACK THIS DISK" is displayed onscreen. I picked up a second bdp-s370 and attempt to play my AVCHD disk. Fresh out of the box it played every AVCHD I own (about 12). Then I connect it to the internet, did the firmware update, and the new BDP-S370 quit playing my AVCHD disk would no longer play, displaying on screen "CANNOT PLAYBACK THIS DISK". It obvious that the firmware removes the abililty to play AVCHD DVD's. The reason I purchased this Blueray player was it's abililty to play AVCHD DVD's. I have NEVER had a manufacturer remove functionality from a product after I take it out of the box and take it home.... Is that LEGAL????
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post #63 of 74 Old 04-27-2010, 01:27 AM
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Even as a geek who has updated the firmware on their Pioneer 51 at least 5 times, I'm not that keen on buying Avatar in part because I'm sick and tired of updating my player. Wonder how many others feel the same way?

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post #64 of 74 Old 04-27-2010, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

Even as a geek who has updated the firmware on their Pioneer 51 at least 5 times, I'm not that keen on buying Avatar in part because I'm sick and tired of updating my player. Wonder how many others feel the same way?

Not many. Since almost everyone can update via the Internet it's pretty much painless or even invisible.
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post #65 of 74 Old 04-27-2010, 07:15 AM
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Well I've got Avatar but I haven't tried to play it on my first Gen Panasonic BD-10a player. After I heard that most need a update to play it I checked out Panasonic online and they have the last update I did for it from late 2008 that is supposed to help with some game on disk for cars and a few other minor things.
It seems to work OK in my PC BD burner so if worse comes to worse I'll just rip the ISO and play it through my media player for now.
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post #66 of 74 Old 04-27-2010, 07:39 AM
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DRM-Ravaged Avatar DVDs May Not Work On Blu-ray Playershttp://consumerist.com/2010/04/drm-r...y-players.html

"Bought Avatar Blu-ray today along with ten gazillian other people. Only problem is that the digital rights mgmt or copy protection seems to be causing errors on a large number of players (even with updated firmware). Comments are pilling up on the web (see amazon link below). Nice job Fox, keep law abiding cash paying customers from viewing their DVDs so you can keep a few people from ripping copies to their iPods for road trips...."

Who knows if this will lead to change on updates?
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post #67 of 74 Old 04-27-2010, 10:34 AM
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Well I took the disk and put it in the Panasonic BD-10a that I mentioned and it took FOREVER to load all the way but it played beautifully once up and running so maybe it's some BD live issue or something that the newer players recognize and have issues with.
I'm running that update from 2008 I mentioned above and no problems so far just very slow to load
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post #68 of 74 Old 04-28-2010, 07:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Not many. Since almost everyone can update via the Internet it's pretty much painless or even invisible.

Doesn't that reduce BluRay to phone home DRM?

Couldn't BD-Live/BluRay internet connectivity be used on future BluRay discs to require an internet connection to get a license (probably BD+ related) to view a disc every time it is inserted, regardless of firmware issues?
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post #69 of 74 Old 04-30-2010, 12:16 PM
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'Avatar' Blu-ray Consumers Can't Watch DVD

An unusual glitch has angered some "Avatar" Blu-ray owners. For these unlucky people, since the disc won't play on their Blu-ray players, their new "Avatar" DVD serves no real purpose other than to sit idly on the coffee table.

"When 3 out of 3 players in my house (Denon, Samsung and PC) won't play it, then 20th Century Fox should be slapped with losses on this one," said one irritated customer.

In reality, the disc works fine; the problem stems from the Blu-ray players themselves. In order to run optimally, the firmware for these fancy DVD machines needs to be updated regularly via a download from the Web. ("Firmware" is the program that controls the performance of an electronic device, which would be, in this case, the playback of a Blu-ray disc.) If a Blu-ray player owner doesn't have a home Internet connection, the chances are good the player's firmware will be out of date. Thus making "Avatar" -- a movie that prides itself on being presented with only the most cutting edge of technology -- unplayable with the older firmware.

Unfortunately, people without an Internet connection probably aren't reading this particular story -- or the hundreds of other pieces instructing new Blu-ray player owners on how to upgrade. So they're not aware of the root of a problem. But while they may not have home access to the Internet, they likely do have a telephone. And they've been using their phone to flood retailers with angry calls.

Still, that only seems to be part of the problem for "Avatar" owners.

It appears the main culprit concerning playback issues with "Avatar" is, ironically, the disc's DRM (digital rights management). DRM, which is the very technology meant to prevent bootleggers from illegally copying the film, is the very technology preventing people who actually paid for the disc from watching the film. Even with updated firmware, a lot of Blu-ray players weren't prepared for these security measures.

Despite the security problems, bootleggers are having a field day. Pirated copies of "Avatar," according to Los Angeles Times, were available as early as January.
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post #70 of 74 Old 05-01-2010, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wytchone View Post

'Avatar' Blu-ray Consumers Can't Watch DVD


In reality, the disc works fine; the problem stems from the Blu-ray players themselves. In order to run optimally, the firmware for these fancy DVD machines needs to be updated regularly via a download from the Web. .

Most ridiculous comment I've ever heard from a consumer electronics "journalist". The previous paragraph mentions THREE separate makes/models of players that didn't work with the Avatar BD!? The Avatar BD thread clearly demonstrates the depth and breath of the problem across all makes and models of BD players.

It's NOT the fault of the hardware makers.

Even if a player technically "plays" the Avatar BD disc, ever increasing load times and random glitches (timeline popping up, subtitle issues, etc) are NOT acceptable. Moving forward, BD+ and related firmware updates required to support it will only make these issues worse.

I've read lots of reports in discussions all over the net that firmware updates didn't "take" the first try, and anywhere from 1-3 hours elapsed before the BD player was updated with current firmware and their Avatar disc could play!? This is NOT acceptable.

My Mom does not have broadband internet. My sister in law doesn't have broadband internet. Neither are technological recluses nor unable to afford it. Redbox is doing so well for a reason- large numbers of people don't want to download huge files, stream video in a browser, or simply don't want to pay the extortionate broadband rates charged in the US. A CE device CANNOT assume a high speed internet connection. Period.

Additionally, I guess BluRay players won't be in cars, or portables, or at homes without any access to broadband whether wanted or not (like my vacation home)...

...and getting a firmware CD ROM in the mail everytime a hot/popular movie is released is NOT acceptable.
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post #71 of 74 Old 05-02-2010, 10:18 PM
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Does anyone know someone at a Blu-ray player company that knows the specifics of the problems with the Avatar disc? Is it the BD+ copy protection or something else?

I looked at DVD copy protection and if the studios are doing the same thing with Blu-ray copy protection, the problem is not with the Blu-ray standard but with the intentional violation of the standards by the studios.

The BD+ standard is an evolving encryption scheme. When people get a red screen and can't play a Blu-ray disc from the start, it sounds like BD+ blocking them. DVDs have a simpler encryption scheme called CSS. CSS was broken a while ago so studios have created methods to foil DVD copy programs by violating specifications and putting erroneous information on DVDs.

You can see a simple example of this if you look at a movie DVD on your PC. Look for a directory called VIDEO_TS. On a copy protected disk, there may be 50 to 100 files in there. Add up the size of all the files. 50 GBytes? 100 GBytes? How is that possible when a dual layer DVD can only hold 8 GBytes? Intentionally bad disc info. This kind of crap extends all the way down to individual video frames. How can they do this?

All the information on a DVD is not essential for playing back the video. There is redundant info that only comes into play when there are errors from things like scratches and fingerprints. DVD copy programs check this redundant info to verify they are copying a video correctly. The bad info confuses them and they end up messing up the copy. You get jumps in the video, blocky video, wrong audio, and other problems. For a DVD player to play back a video correctly, it actually has to ignore the extra info on the DVD.

The early versions of BD+ encryption have already been broken and haven't slowed down the pirates much. I suspect the studios have started putting bad info on the latest Blu-ray discs to try to fool the copy programs like they do with DVDs. But they only end up screwing up Blu-ray players trying to follow the specs.

It would be helpful if someone from the Blu-ray player side could confirm or deny my suspicions.
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post #72 of 74 Old 05-04-2010, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kwarner View Post

Does anyone know someone at a Blu-ray player company that knows the specifics of the problems with the Avatar disc? Is it the BD+ copy protection or something else?

It would be helpful if someone from the Blu-ray player side could confirm or deny my suspicions.


I think the anecdotal evidence strongly suggests the Avatar issue is BD+ related.

Whether the Avatar BD also introduces intentional errors/defects on the disc like some DVD copy protections use is anyone's guess.
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post #73 of 74 Old 04-27-2012, 08:11 AM
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Do all BR player require firmware updates to play recent discs.....
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post #74 of 74 Old 04-27-2012, 08:58 AM
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The only correct answer is "maybe". When a studio releases a disc with a revised copy protection method (aka DRM = Digital Rights Management), that disc will have problems playing players manufactured before that DRM method was devised. Fox tends to do this more often than other studios. E.g. I didn't have to update the firmware in my Pioneer BDP-120 until I tried to play the BD of Fringe season 3.

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