Official PS3-Slim Master Thread-Post all comments and questions here! - Page 19 - AVS Forum
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post #541 of 1011 Old 10-10-2009, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"What would you do with it? Scale it so it fits your TV?"

Good question. One doesn't get the chance the way it currently works.

Sony makes the decision for you.

Being new to the game and having not played with previous firmwares it looks like Sony has taken some very useful stuff out of the current firmware. Stuff that were nice features/options that are no longer available.

In other words nothing new about my observations and asking the question what is Sony thinking?

I was really asking. What would you do with it? I really can't see why one would want 1440x960 native output. And what processor are you using that will take that resolution and "do stuff" with it? Most HDTVs don't take that resolution.
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post #542 of 1011 Old 10-10-2009, 02:47 PM
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"What would you do with it?"

I understand what you are asking. Its a great question. I'm asking the same question. Wouldn't it be nice if we could figure that out. And more than that IF its the case that as an output it is practically unusable, then again, what is Sony thinking?

Even if I took the time to find out if my display could take it as an input, why bother? My display actually takes some very odd inputs since it is also able to connect directly to a pc. Several other displays do the same thing as well with odd input resolutions because of the pc inputs, multi-synch capability, etc.

Once you figure out that no matter what you might be able to use it for that "might" becomes irrelevant because Sony already settles the issue by turning it into 1080 the interest in tracking down possibilities kinda goes away hey?

Its just goofy and I keep coming back to "What is Sony thinking?"

E.B. White said, "I arise in the morning torn between a desire to improve the world and a desire to enjoy the world. This makes it hard to plan the day."
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post #543 of 1011 Old 10-14-2009, 03:56 PM
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So has anyone figured out some mods to stop the higher fan speed from turning on?

My slim is pretty much silent for the first 20-30 mins and then the fan kicks it up a notch and it's noticebly louder (still not as loud as my old fat mind you)

I have already propped it up a couple inches since I felt it gets really hot on the bottom, but that didn't help enough. I've been thinking about drilling some holes in the case to give it more ventilation, or even going as far as putting some high quality thermal grease on the processors cause from the guides I've seen on taking it apart they use pretty crap grease to begin with.
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post #544 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by THE DU3C3 View Post

You may be encountering the same bitstream issue that some Pioneer owners are experiencing. (See linked thread below) They've had varying success by cycling through the audio options on the disc. For instance switching from TrueHD to Dolby Digital then back to TrueHD. Like I said this only works with some. At this point there is no solution unless Sony or Pioneer release some sort of firmware update to correct the problem. Your only option at this point is to use the internal decoders in the PS3 and output LPCM.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1176517

I have the 2009 SC-25 and I have the PS3 Slim DTS-HD issue as well. TrueHD seems to be fine. It's so disappointing these problems with neither side acknowledging the issue. On Sony's side, its so isolated they do not care, only seems to affect Pioneer AVRs. On the Pioneer side, will they even care since it only affects PS3 Slims?? Man this sucks, oh well I guess its incentive to buy the Oppo BD player, x-mas is coming... I am trying to look on the bright side of things but this really is BS regardless of whether it is Sony or Pioneer.

Also, on my Pioneer, PCM is sooo not equal to bitstream (hence me getting a slim) PCM on my SC-25 is at least 5db lower than bitstream, verified using an SPL meter. So all in all I honestly feel like I wasted a ton of money on my SC-25, now I am stuck with it for years to come.
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post #545 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 12:20 PM
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It's so disappointing these problems with neither side acknowledging the issue. On Sony's side, its so isolated they do not care, only seems to affect Pioneer AVRs. On the Pioneer side, will they even care since it only affects PS3 Slims??

It's not the only time this has happened. The TivoHD has a very similar issue with Onkyo x05 series AVRs. Neither company acknowledges or has addressed the issue. I hope you guys have better luck.

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Also, on my Pioneer, PCM is sooo not equal to bitstream (hence me getting a slim) PCM on my SC-25 is at least 5db lower than bitstream, verified using an SPL meter.

Nobody ever suggested that the two modes produced equal volume. Volume difference alone is not an indicator of sound quality. It's an indicator that you need to use the volume control.

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post #546 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 02:10 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

It's not the only time this has happened. The TivoHD has a very similar issue with Onkyo x05 series AVRs. Neither company acknowledges or has addressed the issue. I hope you guys have better luck.

Yeah, I sadly, expect the same, so either Oppo, or LG 390 here I come

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Nobody ever suggested that the two modes produced equal volume. Volume difference alone is not an indicator of sound quality. It's an indicator that you need to use the volume control.

I have read literally hundreds of post that say they are the same thing. Maybe data wise they are, but what would account for the difference in volume?
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post #547 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

I have read literally hundreds of post that say they are the same thing. Maybe data wise they are, but what would account for the difference in volume?

The difference in the position of the volume control.

Seriously.

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post #548 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The difference in the position of the volume control.

Seriously.

Not to mention something the AVR itself may be introducing.
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post #549 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

The difference in the position of the volume control.

Seriously.

Sigh.

I am saying why would there be a difference at say -15 for both PCM vs Bitstream... because that is what I have measured. At a constant volume of -15 under reference, PCM is 5 db lower than bitstream on my AVR. To get the same volume level I on PCM as I do in bitstream, I have to raise the volume to -10. Understant now?
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post #550 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 05:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

Sigh.

I am saying why would there be a difference at say -15 for both PCM vs Bitstream... because that is what I have measured. At a constant volume of -15 under reference, PCM is 5 db lower than bitstream on my AVR. To get the same volume level I on PCM as I do in bitstream, I have to raise the volume to -10. Understant now?

I think everybody understands. But we don't understand why it is such a problem to move the volume knob 5 dB?

When I listen to Bluray movies I use a way louder (reference) volume then when I am just watch a sitcom. So the volume control is moving anyways. As long as your AVR isn't noisy, why do you care about the volume level?

There are a lot of potential reasons why this volume difference could happen. * Player reasons would be that SONY has to lower the decoded volume to allow for the potential secondary audio mixing you may be doing for Profile 1.1 content.
* AVR manufacture might not have taken the time to make sure the PCM levels are maintained correctly. You will have the volume issue anyways when you play a disc that the only HD audio track is PCM (most of the early releases had PCM HD audio tracks.)
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post #551 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

Sigh.

I am saying why would there be a difference at say -15 for both PCM vs Bitstream... because that is what I have measured. At a constant volume of -15 under reference, PCM is 5 db lower than bitstream on my AVR. To get the same volume level I on PCM as I do in bitstream, I have to raise the volume to -10. Understant now?

I understood you the first time. There are many reasons for a difference in level. The same as there are differences in level amongst all your other sources, and even from one disc to the next.

The point is that a difference in level is not an indicator of a difference in quality, and that the only practical impact is that you have to adjust the volume control, which is usually necessary when changing sources or discs anyway.

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post #552 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rdclark View Post

I understood you the first time. There are many reasons for a difference in level. The same as there are differences in level amongst all your other sources, and even from one disc to the next.

The point is that a difference in level is not an indicator of a difference in quality, and that the only practical impact is that you have to adjust the volume control, which is usually necessary when changing sources or discs anyway.

I did a bit of research found some posts about an LFE bug with Pioneer AVR's (everything seems to affect Pioneer for some reason) so it made me think something is wrong with my AVR, but yes you all are correct, just raise the volume. I am engineer by trade so I want to know why PCM is different than bitstream but I guess, as mentioned, there are a number of reasons the two are not the same, volume wise... I guess all the posts I read about the two being equal are from a data point of view, not volume.
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post #553 of 1011 Old 10-16-2009, 07:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

Yeah, I sadly, expect the same, so either Oppo, or LG 390 here I come



I have read literally hundreds of post that say they are the same thing. Maybe data wise they are, but what would account for the difference in volume?

get the pioneer 51fd.. it is uber cheap every where right now and it bitstreams perfectly to the 05/07
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post #554 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 08:20 AM
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I posted this in another thread, but I think I found why I have a 4-5db difference in volume with pcm vs bitstream:

Sometimes it's good to be obsseive and also talk to experts like Roger Dressler, he had me run noise from the PS3 using bitstream and pcm, results were that all channels were 4-5db lower not just LFE. Some more research yielded:

Quote:


There's been a certain level of hysteria about Dialnorm from members of the audiophile community, who misunderstand its purpose and functioning, and believe that it fundamentally alters the soundtracks encoded with it. In actuality, Dialnorm does not affect a movie soundtrack any more than raising or lowering the Volume setting on your receiver does. Contrary to common misconception, Dialnorm does not "boost" the dialogue relative to the rest of the sound mix, or in any way alter the track's dynamic range. A Dialnorm-encoded soundtrack has the exact same peaks and valleys as a soundtrack without Dialnorm; it's just that the Dialnorm track will contain an extra flag in the metadata telling the receiver to either increase or decrease its entire volume scale globally before playback, so that all movies start on the same scale. And it only does this once at the start of the movie; it does not cause fluctuations after the movie begins.

from http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1233

I notice when I bistream I get the dialog normlization +4 readout on the AVR, with PCM that flag is not set leading to the overall lower volume. Once you volume adjust for it, all things are pretty much equal.

I hope this assumption is correct
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post #555 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:01 AM
 
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I notice when I bistream I get the dialog normlization +4 readout on the AVR, with PCM that flag is not set leading to the overall lower volume. Once you volume adjust for it, all things are pretty much equal.

I was trying to bite my keyboard here, but anyway...

PCM does not have anything like dialnorm. Decoders in AVRs and processors are designed for a default dialnorm setting of -27 dBfs. The maximum setting for dialnorm, in other words, not using any attenuation with dialnorm, sets the audio level at -31 dBfs. When you see a reading on an AVR that indiactes "+4 dialnorm" or something like that, it means the dialnorm of that track has ben set at +4 over the default setting of -27. This means no attenuation is being applied by the decoder.

If dialnorm was the reason for hearing a difference in level between a Dolby/DTS bitstream and a raw PCM stream, the difference would be the Dolby/DTS track would play at a LOWER relative volume than the PCM. Not the other way around.

Back to the topic...there are a number of people who use only a basic theoretical knowledge of general digital technology to base their opinion that decoding Dolby/DTS in a player and sending PCM to an AVR is the same thing as sending the data in native bitstream form to be decoded in the AVR. These people have usually not done any sort of real world comparison themselves instead clinging to their own flawed reasoning and dismissing other people's real experience that there is an audible difference.

The simple fact is, modern AVRs process PCM and native bitstream differently. Different players use different decoders. There are different HDMI chips (transmitters and receivers) employed in these devices. In other words, there are far too many variables in this process to simply say, "bits are bits" and any difference one hears is either a simple volume difference, or worse, all in your mind.

I don't claim to be a scientist. This theory has not been tested under laboratory conditions. In the absence of hard science, we have only practical application and collected observation. While I do not claim to be an expert, I do have decades of critical listening experience with a huge variety of hardware and software. I've compared literally dozens of HD DVD and Blu-ray players and at least a half dozen AVRs. The main speakers in my system are reference grade studio monitors that are very revealing. I know what I hear. I don't need someone who hasn't even been in the room to tell me what is going on. When they have some hard science that proves their position over that of people who have actually listened to the differences, then we will have a substantive discussion. Until then, RobBas, don't let anyone tell you what you do or don't hear.
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post #556 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobBas View Post

I posted this in another thread, but I think I found why I have a 4-5db difference in volume with pcm vs bitstream:

Sometimes it's good to be obsseive and also talk to experts like Roger Dressler, he had me run noise from the PS3 using bitstream and pcm, results were that all channels were 4-5db lower not just LFE. Some more research yielded:



from http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/1233

I notice when I bistream I get the dialog normlization +4 readout on the AVR, with PCM that flag is not set leading to the overall lower volume. Once you volume adjust for it, all things are pretty much equal.

I hope this assumption is correct

you are dedicated to finding the reason that is for sure..nice research although you are obsessing.. lol
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post #557 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted by hdtv47lg70 View Post

you are dedicated to finding the reason that is for sure..nice research although you are obsessing.. lol

According to that guys article I thought I found the answer but apparently I made someone want to bite his keyboard

I need to let it go, its a moot point, the Slim Bistreams (with the DTS-HD hiccup) just fine and my system has never sounded better. Nice to hear my SVS Ultra shake the house again, 4-5db is noticeable.
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post #558 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert George View Post

When they have some hard science that proves their position over that of people who have actually listened to the differences, then we will have a substantive discussion. Until then, RobBas, don't let anyone tell you what you do or don't hear.

Very glib, but of course that's not what's happening.

There is no denial of the differences people hear. But there is a desire to explain it, and to avoid labeling things "superior" when they are simply different.

Differences in level alone, as you certainly know, are not an indicator of superiority or inferiority -- although as with everything in this complex field, can result in a signal that works more or less well with the associated equipment.

There is a strong bias, especially amongst younger listeners buying their first systems, in favor of "louder equals better." And I'm not talking about the psychoacoustic phenomenon whereby subtle increases in level produces perceived superiority. Rather, I refer to a belief that something that plays louder is literally of better quality for that reason alone.

It is this sort of misconception that I'm interested in addressing.

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post #559 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 12:57 PM
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The alternative to real science is not collective observation. In the absence of real science, collected observation carries exactly the same weight than if there was real science (which is, not evidence). I don't know how suddenly it should carry more weight just because no science has been done on it. In the absence of real science, you do real science!
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post #560 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 02:29 PM
 
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There is no denial of the differences people hear. But there is a desire to explain it, and to avoid labeling things "superior" when they are simply different.

"Difference" is objective, "superior" is subjective. Objectively, we can hear a difference in bitstreamed audio decoded in the AVR compared to externally decoded audio sent to the AVR in PCM form. Whether an individual perceives that difference as better or worse is subjective. Anecdotally, I have not seen anyone claim the difference is worse using bitstream.

WHY there is a difference is the subject of further research. No matter the outcome of that research, one's perception is what it is. If I perceive bitstreamed audio sounds better to me on my system, then it does.

And it does.
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post #561 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 02:34 PM
 
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The alternative to real science is not collective observation.

I didn't say it was.

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In the absence of real science, collected observation carries exactly the same weight than if there was real science (which is, not evidence).

I disagree. Practical observation is a perfectly valid component of scientific research. Obviously observation alone is not all that is necessary to draw legitimate conclusions.
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post #562 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 02:43 PM
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Just to be clear, I am not perceiving anything, there is a 4db measureable difference between PCM and Bitstream on all channels using the PS3 Slim and a Pioneer SC-25. SQ wise, when volume adjusted, they measure and sound the same. I just would like to know why, but as mentioned it can be one, or a combonation of many things. Simple answer is raise the volume if you PCM.
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post #563 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 06:34 PM
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The timing of this post may be interesting given the debate between bitstream and LPCM, but I do have a somewhat interesting problem related to bitstream and would love anyone's insight.

For some reason, when I bitstream a Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD track, I get a pretty significant video lag on my setup (Samsung LN52B750, Denon 2310ci, PS3 Slim, all HDMI). Now video lag may seem strange when talking about bitstreaming, but hear me out...

So I have no audio sync problems with HD cable, DVDs, etc. Also, if I switch the audio output to Linear PCM, the audio sync problem disappears. The lip sync function on the AVR doesn't seem to make a difference. And I doubt it's the television, as I'm not experiencing a lag anywhere else (and have tried viewing Blu-rays with the "game mode" on to minimize any video processing with no success).

This is the 2nd slim I have tried, and am now debating returning it again and leaving the PS3 land all together. I don't want this post to seem like I'm getting into the debate between bitstream and LPCM, but to see if anyone has experienced this as well, if this is a known issue, if there's a potential fix, if I'm off my rocker, etc.

Thanks in advance for any help!
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post #564 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 07:09 PM
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No problem with my Denon 3808 and PS3 slim when bitstreaming or sending PCM.

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post #565 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 07:16 PM
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No issues with my Denon 989 and the slim when bitstreaming or sending pcm either. Have you tried a different hdmi input on the 2310?

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post #566 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:03 PM
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I think it's pretty clear that the Slim doesn't have any issues with either Denon or Onkyo.

I've had an issue on another brand with PCM over HDMI, and it sounded like crap. This was verified with a calibration disk and a SPL meter. That AVR has gone to the retirement home and that brand in no longer considered.

The Slim with FW 3.01 rocks with either the new lossless codecs, Bitstream or on Blu Ray disks that are encoded LCPM on my Onkyo 906.

Nice Stuff!
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post #567 of 1011 Old 10-18-2009, 09:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiguy View Post

The timing of this post may be interesting given the debate between bitstream and LPCM, but I do have a somewhat interesting problem related to bitstream and would love anyone's insight.

For some reason, when I bitstream a Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD track, I get a pretty significant video lag on my setup (Samsung LN52B750, Denon 2310ci, PS3 Slim, all HDMI). Now video lag may seem strange when talking about bitstreaming, but hear me out...

So I have no audio sync problems with HD cable, DVDs, etc. Also, if I switch the audio output to Linear PCM, the audio sync problem disappears. The lip sync function on the AVR doesn't seem to make a difference. And I doubt it's the television, as I'm not experiencing a lag anywhere else (and have tried viewing Blu-rays with the "game mode" on to minimize any video processing with no success).

This is the 2nd slim I have tried, and am now debating returning it again and leaving the PS3 land all together. I don't want this post to seem like I'm getting into the debate between bitstream and LPCM, but to see if anyone has experienced this as well, if this is a known issue, if there's a potential fix, if I'm off my rocker, etc.

Thanks in advance for any help!

problem solved denon to > pioneer
samsung to > lg
let me know how this solution works!!

that is interesting though.. you get no lag from the lpcm but lag with the bitstream? i am interested in finding out the solution to this one...

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I think it's pretty clear that the Slim doesn't have any issues with either Denon or Onkyo.

I've had an issue on another brand with PCM over HDMI, and it sounded like crap. This was verified with a calibration disk and a SPL meter. That AVR has gone to the retirement home and that brand in no longer considered.

The Slim with FW 3.01 rocks with either the new lossless codecs, Bitstream or on Blu Ray disks that are encoded LCPM on my Onkyo 906.

i had issue with ps3 lpcm to my denon 1910.. it sounded weak pure and simple weak...

i had an old yamaha v995 that introduced me to the world of bitstreaming.. for me bitstreaming of high defintion codec's core track ONLY via optical sounded much more robust versus multi channel lpcm via hdmi from the ps3 to the denon 1910...
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post #568 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by hdtv47lg70 View Post

problem solved denon to > pioneer
samsung to > lg
let me know how this solution works!!

i had issue with ps3 lpcm to my denon 1910.. it sounded weak pure and simple weak...

I will agree that if the Slim does the decoding to LCPM, it sounds weak.
If I'm playing a PCM track from a Blu Ray, it sounds as good as a DTS MA bitstreamed.

Nice Stuff!
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post #569 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 06:42 PM
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I will agree that if the Slim does the decoding to LCPM, it sounds weak.
If I'm playing a PCM track from a Blu Ray, it sounds as good as a DTS MA bitstreamed.

i am assuming you mean if the blu ray source audio is uncompressed pcm? i dont think i ever tried a disc with that. i have seen them though.
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post #570 of 1011 Old 10-19-2009, 07:46 PM
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When watching a DVD in my PS3, it plays just fine. But when the movie ends, my screen goes blank. If I manually turn off the PS3 and turn it back on, the PS3 reappears on the TV.

I have my PS3 located by my TV, and all of my "gear" is in a cabinet on another wall. The PS3 (slim) is connected to my Onkyo 886 via HDMI and the HDMI run is about 35 feet (Monoprice). I have another 35 foot HDMI (Monoprice) cable going from the 886 to my Sony KDS-XBR1 60 HDTV.

Before I go thru the hassle of unhooking everything, puting the pS3 in the same cabinet my Pre-Pro is located, and using a shorter 4 foot HDMI cable and reconnecting the PS3, is there anything else I can check?

Because of logistics, this would be a troublesome option.
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