Denon DBP-4010UDCI - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1244 Old 03-29-2011, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

Hear ya too !

All have our budgets and means to work within. I justify my avp as a cost saving ! Hehe prior to it was getting new avrs etc just about every year. Getting the avp has kept me upgrade free the last 3 years. And if it's update comes will likely keep me upgrade free another three years. Way I look at it even if get 5 years out of it, it's paid itself off ! The justifications we use hehe

Seriously regardless what we have all that's important we happy and content with it , no further justification required.

I just try to update one piece of hardware each year! Usually it is a fairly recent good performer, used if possible. This year I purchased a used Denon 3930 that was well cared for. I liked it so much that I purchased the 4010 to replace both my 3930 and 83SE. I was lucky to sell both the 3930 and 83SE within hours after they were listed for sale. It does make sense to purchase gear that is highly regarded on the AVS forums, lots of good help from the guys here. Also, makes them easy to sell when it is time to upgrade.
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post #812 of 1244 Old 03-29-2011, 05:18 PM
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Hello,
That is such awesome news that the 5308 and the A1 will soon offer XT32 and 3D Passthrough. In this era of Components that seem to be obsolete within a year with no provisions for upgrades, I gotta give it up to Denon for continuing to offer Feature Upgrades to preexisting Models.

Truly is a win-win as it saves Denon a fortune in Development Costs from building a brand new product while simultaneously offering the latest Features to 4 year old Components and giving a major boost to Resale Value.

I realize with the Disaster which afflicted Japan makes speculating on when these upgrades will be available might seem callous, but bringing in additional Revenue from the Upgrade can only help in Japan's Recovery.
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post #813 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 10:06 AM
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I am inquiring as I do not have this player.

Is it possible to run the Denon Link to the AVR and component video cables directly to the TV. I have an old Sony KV-34HS510 CRT.

Does there need to be an HDMI cable in the mix?
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post #814 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by classicrecording View Post

I am inquiring as I do not have this player.

Is it possible to run the Denon Link to the AVR and component video cables directly to the TV. I have an old Sony KV-34HS510 CRT.

Does there need to be an HDMI cable in the mix?

You need a HDMI cable for the DL4 features, you don't need HDMI for DL3 and older features. So you basically only need HDMI for the newer Bluray lossless audio formats. And of course the AVR would need to be one of the more recent DL4 capable units for this to matter.
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post #815 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 04:13 PM
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I already got mine. everything is connected properly abd the cd works just fine thru DL4. However, it does not decode bluray audio format, it only shows multi cha in on the front panel of my 5308 even if the DL4 is disconnected from my player. Also, I already did the initialize but still the format is showing multi chan in. I need HELP.

By the way, when I called denon for help i was told that he can't fix the problem and someone will call me soon regarding the issue.
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post #816 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 05:23 PM
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You have to read the manual for specifics. Since I'm on the road now, I can only point you to some general areas.

Even if you set the HDMI output to bitstream, by default, the 4010 still sends out decoded to MPCM because of secondary audio (ie PinP commentaries etc). There's an Audio button iirc that allows you to send main audio only (instead of main+secondary). That will enable bitstream out on HDMI.

Hope this helps.
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post #817 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 06:57 PM
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One thing more, I called the store from where I bought this unit just to ask help from their technician. As the result, I was told that the hdmi portion of the unit is deffective. So they will exchange the unit. In so far as I wanted to fix the issue soon, I started to read the manual and found out on page 32 that the audio mode must be on the HD audio output to get bluray signal and fix the problem.
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post #818 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

You have to read the manual for specifics. Since I'm on the road now, I can only point you to some general areas.

Even if you set the HDMI output to bitstream, by default, the 4010 still sends out decoded to MPCM because of secondary audio (ie PinP commentaries etc). There's an Audio button iirc that allows you to send main audio only (instead of main+secondary). That will enable bitstream out on HDMI.

Hope this helps.

Thank you so much for your help.That really helps a lot too. But I have another question here. My question is: How come that the word denon link is not showing up on the front panel of my avr whenever I playback bluray, only when I play cd, dvd and the like except for bluray. I also noticed that the three blue lights on the 4010 like 24 link, Denon Link and clock, are all lit. Am I missing something?
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post #819 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 07:21 PM
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Here is another question. Before I started operating this machine, I did firmwere update first. Then I decided to do the initialize to restore everything to the factory settings. Will that mean that firmwere update is not included in the factory settings? Please reply.
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post #820 of 1244 Old 03-31-2011, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by @@@@@ View Post

Thank you so much for your help.That really helps a lot too. But I have another question here. My question is: How come that the word denon link is not showing up on the front panel of my avr whenever I playback bluray, only when I play cd, dvd and the like except for bluray. I also noticed that the three blue lights on the 4010 like 24 link, Denon Link and clock, are all lit. Am I missing something?

Again, check the manual

The DenonLink light only appears in certain modes. Not all of them.
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post #821 of 1244 Old 04-01-2011, 03:46 AM
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Denon Link will only show for sources that use it. CD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD. Blu-ray will only use Denon link for the clock control. The three blue lights will be lit on the front of the 4010 when utilizing DL4 w/blu.

Firmware updates are not affected by an initialize.
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post #822 of 1244 Old 04-01-2011, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by greensonor View Post

Denon Link will only show for sources that use it. CD, SACD, DVD-A, DVD. Blu-ray will only use Denon link for the clock control. The three blue lights will be lit on the front of the 4010 when utilizing DL4 w/blu.

Firmware updates are not affected by an initialize.

Thank you for this info. I think I got it.
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post #823 of 1244 Old 04-01-2011, 05:20 PM
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This forum is much, much, much better off than the technical support team of denon. I once again found out that most of their technicians are clueless about their products. One question I asked of them was " Where is the lip sync adjustment of this bluray(4010)? he said "there is no lip sync feature for that player according to manual I am holding." Aren't they great? Yes great pain in my neck.

Nevertheless, I am now enjoying myself listening to this great machine. I noticed that the video resolution betwwen this(4010) and 3800 bdci are the same but their sound qualities are not. 4010 ( via DL4) is better than 3800 (via HDMI) in my openion. Also, I used WOW to calibrate the video and audio of my 4010 due to the fact that it is showing lip sync issues. This dics really help
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post #824 of 1244 Old 04-02-2011, 03:01 AM
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If you own avr 5308 is connected to 4010 via DL4, what input mode (such as auto, denon link, external or analogue on your 5308) do you leave your avr connected to? The reason why I am asking this question is because I want to know if there is really a big difference in sound quality among my players like 2930 (via DL3), 3910 ( via DL3), 3800 (via Ext'l/HDMI) and 4010 (via DL4). If there is no night and day difference in their musical sound quality, then I will make my decision whether to keep it or say bye bye to it for good and replace it with denon-a1udci for another adventure in this super, duper, mega expensive habby. Please reply.
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post #825 of 1244 Old 04-02-2011, 05:30 AM
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I have mine connected in a weird way. I have the HDMI for blu-ray and I use the DL for SACD/DVD-A & CD as second input source on my receiver. Also use analog input for CD as well. I've listened to music on the different inputs, switching between inputs and it all sounds great. Analog sounds clean, warm and defined. DL sounds similar but (to my ears) with a tad less warmth as you lose that initial analog conversion. I have a Denon 2900 in my second system and feel the 4010 sounds much better.
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post #826 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

I love my sacds as well. and sacds do sound excellent over the 4010 west. thing is there will be plenty that argue no benefit with sacd just as many will say nothing to be gained with denon link. each to their own

ps I can remember a time too when there were quite a few sacds around and people not really knowing much about them. unfortunately no longer the case. they seem to demand some silly money on ebay for those out of print. but yeah a few labels still releasing titles at reasonable money.


Hey Al -

I'm hoping you or someone else here may know the answer to this. I've decided to go for the 4010 after all, to get the Denon Link functionality, as a better safe than sorry sort of measure. My question is really about the Denon AVR-5308 and the AVP and how they process a DSD stream from the player. I know that the unconverted DSD stream can be transmitted to the 5308 and AVP, but I plan to use bass management and EQ in the 5308, which means the DSD signal will have to be converted to PCM within the 5308 first. But at what bit depth and sampling rate? Do the 5308 and AVP downconvert to 16bit / 44.1KHz, or do they convert to 24/88.1 or 24/96 PCM for processing? Since the DBP-4010 downconverts to 16/44.1 when transferring decoded SACD via HDMI, I’m wondering if the 5308 and AVP do the same internally?
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post #827 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 07:19 PM
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I got my 4010 days ago and I noticed that there only a slight difference betwwen my 3910 and 4010 (via hdmi) in terms of musical sound qualities. I am thinking of returning this unit. However, I got this brand new with more than 40% off the original price plus 18mos to pay with no interest plus free shipping. That's what is keeping me from giving up this machine. I hope that I am making a right decision.
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post #828 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by @@@@@ View Post

I got my 4010 days ago and I noticed that there only a slight difference betwwen my 3910 and 4010 (via hdmi) in terms of musical sound qualities. I am thinking of returning this unit. However, I got this brand new with more than 40% off the original price plus 18mos to pay with no interest plus free shipping. That's what is keeping me from giving up this machine. I hope that I am making a right decision.

@@@@ - sent you a PM to get referral to the dealer you bought from.
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post #829 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

My question is really about the Denon AVR-5308 and the AVP and how they process a DSD stream from the player.

Have you updated the firmware?

I recall there was a paid firmware update that added:
DenonLink4 and MultiEQ XT

http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/...-OM-E_207A.pdf

Page 50 and Page 71

I believe if you enable room correction/EQ etc, DSD is converted to PCM and the display says DIRECT. Otherwise you should see DSD Direct or DSD Multi Direct


"When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes, the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals.
DSD DIRECT is shown on the display when playing DSD 2-channel signals in the DIRECT mode. DSD MULTI DIRECT is shown on the display when playing DSD multi--channel signals in the DIRECT mode.
The DSD signal may not be output depending on the equipment that is connected.For further details, refer to the user manual for the equipment being used."
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post #830 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

Have you updated the firmware?

I recall there was a paid firmware update that added:
DenonLink4 and MultiEQ XT

http://usa.denon.com/DocumentMaster/...-OM-E_207A.pdf

Page 50 and Page 71

I believe if you enable room correction/EQ etc, DSD is converted to PCM and the display says DIRECT. Otherwise you should see DSD Direct or DSD Multi Direct


"When playing DSD signals in the DIRECT or PURE DIRECT mode, the DSD signals are converted as such into analog signals. When playing in other surround modes, the DSD signals are first converted into PCM format, then into analog signals.
• “DSD DIRECT” is shown on the display when playing DSD 2-channel signals in the DIRECT mode. “DSD MULTI DIRECT” is shown on the display when playing DSD multi--channel signals in the DIRECT mode.
• The DSD signal may not be output depending on the equipment that is connected.For further details, refer to the user manual for the equipment being used."

Hi Woof - yes, I'm running current firmware in my AVR-5308, and I've read the quoted info you posted, but I want to know the specific bit depth and sample rate used for the internal conversion of DSD to PCM within the AVR-5308. Is DSD converted to 44.1, 88.1, or 96KHz?
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post #831 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post


Hey Al -

I'm hoping you or someone else here may know the answer to this. I've decided to go for the 4010 after all, to get the Denon Link functionality, as a better safe than sorry sort of measure. My question is really about the Denon AVR-5308 and the AVP and how they process a DSD stream from the player. I know that the unconverted DSD stream can be transmitted to the 5308 and AVP, but I plan to use bass management and EQ in the 5308, which means the DSD signal will have to be converted to PCM within the 5308 first. But at what bit depth and sampling rate? Do the 5308 and AVP downconvert to 16bit / 44.1KHz, or do they convert to 24/88.1 or 24/96 PCM for processing? Since the DBP-4010 downconverts to 16/44.1 when transferring decoded SACD via HDMI, I'm wondering if the 5308 and AVP do the same internally?

Hi Tim, you always have the tough questions don't you !

I've only ever run with dsd over dl. And don't have player anymore so can't test to tell you sorry. But what I'd suggest is check if al24 processing is lit up will tell you that's the mode being used ie that it is 24 96khz or 24/192khz. There probably no other means of telling you what else is being done internally. Be very surprised being down resd in the 5308.

A good move re the 4010 I think. At the moment really unless needing 3d it's definitely the pick of the denons in my opinion.

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post #832 of 1244 Old 04-04-2011, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

Hi Tim, you always have the tough questions don't you !

I've only ever run with dsd over dl. And don't have player anymore so can't test to tell you sorry. But what I'd suggest is check if al24 processing is lit up will tell you that's the mode being used ie that it is 24 96khz or 24/192khz. There probably no other means of telling you what else is being done internally. Be very surprised being down resd in the 5308.

A good move re the 4010 I think. At the moment really unless needing 3d it's definitely the pick of the denons in my opinion.

LOL. I'm like that hard-hitting investigative reporter that all the politicians try to avoid.

I think you are on to something, but I don't think that the AL24 indicator tells me what I'm after. To the best of my knowledge, AL24 is Denon's marketing term for their upsampler. So whether the internal signal is 44.1 or 96KHz, AL24 will uprez it to 24/192KHz and the AL24 indicator will be lit. What we still don't know is the internal conversion bit depth and sampling rate before AL24 is applied, unless I'm missing something.

I was thinking that I could could check the signal status section within the AVR-5308's GUI, but that will only confirm that the input is DSD, not what is done to the DSD signal once converted to PCM.

PS: No interest in 3D on my end. I have a hard time keeping the image focused, and I find the trade-offs to be greater than the benefit. Audio quality is more important to me.
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post #833 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 02:27 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

LOL. I'm like that hard-hitting investigative reporter that all the politicians try to avoid.

I think you are on to something, but I don't think that the AL24 indicator tells me what I'm after. To the best of my knowledge, AL24 is Denon's marketing term for their upsampler. So whether the internal signal is 44.1 or 96KHz, AL24 will uprez it to 24/192KHz and the AL24 indicator will be lit. What we still don't know is the internal conversion bit depth and sampling rate before AL24 is applied, unless I'm missing something.

I was thinking that I could could check the signal status section within the AVR-5308's GUI, but that will only confirm that the input is DSD, not what is done to the DSD signal once converted to PCM.

PS: No interest in 3D on my end. I have a hard time keeping the image focused, and I find the trade-offs to be greater than the benefit. Audio quality is more important to me.

tim your quite right, al24 is just the processing, it doesnt mean anything else is not happening to the signal. and yes the gui signal info though fantastic for showing incoming signal properties wont tell you how the signal being handled.

dont think have an answer for you am afraid. might just have to use the ears as test. ie pure dsd into the 5308 with no post processing vs dsd converted to pcm with post processing and decide which sounds better to your ears.

alternatively worth asking denon support as a question. but likely you will get denonese answer that doesnt help !

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post #834 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 06:37 AM
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alternatively worth asking denon support as a question. but likely you will get denonese answer that doesnt help !

Yeah, I was going to suggest the same thing, but it's very unlikely that the support people will truly understand the question. If they do understand the question, it's probably even less likely that they'll have the info needed to answer it accurately. This is the sort of thing that they'd probably have to go to the engineers who designed it for an answer and it's reasonably likely that they don't have this sort of access for what is essentially (from their point of view as they aren't diagnosing a problem) a casual question. That said, it wouldn't hurt to ask and see what sort of response you get.
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post #835 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 09:36 AM
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Hey guys -

Thanks for trying. I've sent the question to Denon via there on-line help service, but as you've both stated, I have VERY little hope that I will ge the answer from them. The US customer service dept simply doesn't have knowledge to answer this kind of question.
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post #836 of 1244 Old 04-05-2011, 09:37 PM
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Alebonau -

I've been meaning to ask, why did you part with your 4010?
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post #837 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 12:49 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Alebonau -

I've been meaning to ask, why did you part with your 4010?

Tim, it was a mistake, I had a very busy year last year, starting a new job and with both family and kids meaning went through a patch of quite a few months without even watching a movie. Actually put both my avp and 4010 up for sale. from lack of use, thought going to waste. fortunately came to my senses before selling the avp, but was too late on the 4010.

things eased up around christmas time with the new job, and settling in there, plus ordered a ton of movies that enjoyed over the chrismas break really back in things. something really regret now selling the 4010 ! it definitely is a lovely pairing with the avp.

I'm using the sony 5000es we had in the bedroom system, missing multichannel music and both sacd, dvda. plus the sony as beaut as it is, is distinctly not quite at the realm the way the denon was.

I definitely do see a denon universal back in my system at some stage. but for now I'll sit back see how things pan out new model wise and all that. have ordered a oppo 95 in the mean time to tide me over, but thats taking its bloody time for us locally too, if takes too much longer might get fed up waiting

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post #838 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 09:14 AM
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Hey guys -

Thanks for trying. I've sent the question to Denon via there on-line help service, but as you've both stated, I have VERY little hope that I will ge the answer from them. The US customer service dept simply doesn't have knowledge to answer this kind of question.

Tim ;Ive no definitive answer either but 2 points tell me it probably isnt downrezed ; if the 5308 is an equivalent to the A11XV [it must be close] converts @ 88.2hz it seems ; note the 1791 and 1796 bb dacs used which differentiate your avr from giving a better correlation ;

http://groups.google.com/group/surro...log-processing

The other thing is an earlier denon universal had both i-link and one of denons proprietary version of the same - dl3 . Cant imagine their proprietary version of firewire would come of worse than firewire which presumably feeds the dacs straight lpcm as its bandwidth allows 24/96 Even less dl4 possibly ..
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post #839 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

Tim, it was a mistake, I had a very busy year last year, starting a new job and with both family and kids meaning went through a patch of quite a few months without even watching a movie. Actually put both my avp and 4010 up for sale. from lack of use, thought going to waste. fortunately came to my senses before selling the avp, but was too late on the 4010.

things eased up around christmas time with the new job, and settling in there, plus ordered a ton of movies that enjoyed over the chrismas break really back in things. something really regret now selling the 4010 ! it definitely is a lovely pairing with the avp.

I'm using the sony 5000es we had in the bedroom system, missing multichannel music and both sacd, dvda. plus the sony as beaut as it is, is distinctly not quite at the realm the way the denon was.

I definitely do see a denon universal back in my system at some stage. but for now I'll sit back see how things pan out new model wise and all that. have ordered a oppo 95 in the mean time to tide me over, but thats taking its bloody time for us locally too, if takes too much longer might get fed up waiting

I completely understand. I did something similar with my Classe gear. Felt I had too much money into something I wasn't using all that much, which was made worse by the fact that I was having all sorts of technical problems. I sold it all off and replaced it with the Denon gear. There is some regret there, but high-end Denon stuff is no slouch. Just not quite as sexy or prestigious as the Classe.
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post #840 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 09:20 PM
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Since the 4010 does not decode flac files, I was looking for a way to stream flac from my PC to my Denon AVR. I use JRiver Media Player 15 via my laptop which is connected by HDMI to my 46" plasma. So, I use the PC/display to operate JRiver via wireless KB & Mouse (JRiver remote is available). What is really cool is my Musical Fidelity V-Link, Asychronous 24/96 via USB to SPDIF Coax/Toslink to my Denon AVR, has very little or no jitter! This translates to Audiophile 24/96 through my receiver using AL24 processing. I have several 24/96 "HDTrack" albums, and I started ripping some CD's to flac. I had put off PC streaming, glad I did, the V-Link just became available. Playing CD's from my PC to my AVR, now sounds as good or better that a CD played from my 4010. Just an FYI, especially good with an AVR with AL24, and some of the higher end Denon BB DAC's out there! The V-Link basically acts as an external sound card/SPDIF out, a good one at that.
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