Denon DBP-4010UDCI - Page 29 - AVS Forum
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post #841 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djwobbrock View Post
Since the 4010 does not decode flac files, I was looking for a way to stream flac from my PC to my Denon AVR. I use JRiver Media Player 15 via my laptop which is connected by HDMI to my 46" plasma. So, I use the PC/display to operate JRiver via wireless KB & Mouse (JRiver remote is available). What is really cool is my Musical Fidelity V-Link, Asychronous 24/96 via USB to SPDIF Coax/Toslink to my Denon AVR, has very little or no jitter! This translates to Audiophile 24/96 through my receiver using AL24 processing. I have several 24/96 "HDTrack" albums, and I started ripping some CD's to flac. I had put off PC streaming, glad I did, the V-Link just became available. Playing CD's from my PC to my AVR, now sounds as good or better that a CD played from my 4010. Just an FYI, especially good with an AVR with AL24, and some of the higher end Denon BB DAC's out there! The V-Link basically acts as an external sound card/SPDIF out, a good one at that.
dj -

I hear yah, I've been using a mac mini as a music server for a few years now, and I'm glad to see that more companies are providing ways to get the most out of PC audio. I'm using the Halide Bridge Asynch USB to SPDIF converter, which is pretty cool because they managed to squeeze all the circuitry into a small case on the back of the connector. A nice and tidy high-tech solution.

I can't imagine using a single disc player for music listening anymore.
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post #842 of 1244 Old 04-06-2011, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Thanks Al. The way I read that description is that you must decode in the player and output as PCM to the AVR for DL4 to work with HD audio. Which is neither here nor there I suppose, since technically it shouldn't matter if the player or the AVR is doing the decoding.

However, I've recently learned that bitstreamed audio (DTS, DD, DTHD, DTSMA) aren't prone to the higher levels of jitter found with PCM signals anyway (because the data is decoded and reclocked by the AVR / Processor), so something like DL4 is overkill when bitstreaming these audio formats between player and AVR. Now that I think about it, maybe the lower jitter levels are why some people prefer the sound of having the AVR / Processor do the decoding rather than having a conventional player do it?

Just to play devil's advocate to my own post , I found a reasonable argument on another forum for why something like Denon Link could theoretically improve the jitter performance of bit-streamed HD audio.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/blogs...er-jitter.html
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post #843 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 12:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post
Just to play devil's advocate to my own post , I found a reasonable argument on another forum for why something like Denon Link could theoretically improve the jitter performance of bit-streamed HD audio.

http://www.avforums.com/forums/blogs...er-jitter.html
tim good you have found some discussion on topic you were looking for, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the thread by amirm is well worth a read with also some discussion on this topic, have posted a link

advanced topics in HD audio
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=960826

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post #844 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post
tim good you have found some discussion on topic you were looking for, as mentioned earlier in this thread, the thread by amirm is well worth a read with also some discussion on this topic, have posted a link

advanced topics in HD audio
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=960826
I took your advice and read through an entire thread on jitter where Amirm was a key contibutor, and that thread is where I got the link to the AVForum post talking about the possibility of bitstream jitter.

I like Amirm's posting style. Factual, no grandstanding, and level headed. He pretty much summed up that jitter is a non-issue for most people most of the time, but if you are going after that last 5% of performance, it is one area to look into.

I'm going to keep the 4010 regardless of the affect of DL4, as I just like knowing that there is one less variable that could be negatively affecting sound quality, and I wan't a really well-built player that matches my AVR.

BTW - I recently discovered that Amirm runs a local hi-fi shop here in Seattle. Apparently he is an ex-MicroSoft guy, and has quite a bit of technical experience (obvious from his posts) and he has been involved in all sorts of scientific testing of codecs and other sound technologies. I might just have to go see him in person.
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post #845 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post
I like Amirm's posting style. Factual, no grandstanding, and level headed. He pretty much summed up that jitter is a non-issue for most people most of the time, but if you are going after that last 5% of performance, it is one area to look into.
Some of my favourite posts from Charles Hansen Tim including what it takes to emulate the dl4 jitter reduction in a regular hdmi 1.3 arc avr

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17706885
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17706975
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17782595
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post #846 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post
I took your advice and read through an entire thread on jitter where Amirm was a key contibutor, and that thread is where I got the link to the AVForum post talking about the possibility of bitstream jitter.

I like Amirm's posting style. Factual, no grandstanding, and level headed. He pretty much summed up that jitter is a non-issue for most people most of the time, but if you are going after that last 5% of performance, it is one area to look into.

I'm going to keep the 4010 regardless of the affect of DL4, as I just like knowing that there is one less variable that could be negatively affecting sound quality, and I wan't a really well-built player that matches my AVR.

BTW - I recently discovered that Amirm runs a local hi-fi shop here in Seattle. Apparently he is an ex-MicroSoft guy, and has quite a bit of technical experience (obvious from his posts) and he has been involved in all sorts of scientific testing of codecs and other sound technologies. I might just have to go see him in person.
yeah that thread is a beauty, he really goes to some pains to explain.

and not just any microsoft guy, was the official microsoft insider for hddvd, right up until the demise of the format. I too noticed this store he is behind. good to hear he is still involved in av in some fashion. do visit if get the chance, and let us know what he is like and what the store is all about

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post #847 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

dj -

I hear yah, I've been using a mac mini as a music server for a few years now, and I'm glad to see that more companies are providing ways to get the most out of PC audio. I'm using the Halide Bridge Asynch USB to SPDIF converter, which is pretty cool because they managed to squeeze all the circuitry into a small case on the back of the connector. A nice and tidy high-tech solution.

I can't imagine using a single disc player for music listening anymore.

From what I have read, the Halide Bridge Asynch USB to SPDIF does a very good job transfering from PC. I looked at this device as an option also, but the V-Link for 1/3 the cost of the Halide Bridge was a better choice for my budget. I considered purchasing a DAC, but I already have that in my Denon AVR, and I don't travel with my laptop. Also, I have a very good tube headphone amp that has a PC input.
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post #848 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 08:21 AM
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I've tried a number of USB-SPDIF implementations, and the best ones are invariably the asynchronous USB ones.

And of the asynchronous ones I played with (W4S DAC2/M2Tech Evo/Ayre QB9.Wavelink HS), the Ayre/HS is really very very good. Ayre licences the Wavelength async USB code for the QB9
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post #849 of 1244 Old 04-07-2011, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

yeah that thread is a beauty, he really goes to some pains to explain.

and not just any microsoft guy, was the official microsoft insider for hddvd, right up until the demise of the format. I too noticed this store he is behind. good to hear he is still involved in av in some fashion. do visit if get the chance, and let us know what he is like and what the store is all about

He's over at "Whats best forums" and is one of its founders if not the founder of the site!
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post #850 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Tim ;Ive no definitive answer either but 2 points tell me it probably isnt downrezed ; if the 5308 is an equivalent to the A11XV [it must be close] converts @ 88.2hz it seems ; note the 1791 and 1796 bb dacs used which differentiate your avr from giving a better correlation ;

http://groups.google.com/group/surro...log-processing

The other thing is an earlier denon universal had both i-link and one of denons proprietary version of the same - dl3 . Cant imagine their proprietary version of firewire would come of worse than firewire which presumably feeds the dacs straight lpcm as its bandwidth allows 24/96 Even less dl4 possibly ..

BTW - Thanks for posting this info and sorry for not responding sooner. I asked Denon what the sampling rate and bit depth are for DSD to PCM conversion in the AVR-5308, and their response for the time being is 16/48KHz. I tend not to trust the info they provide though, and I've asked them to provide the source of the info and, thanks to your post, I also referenced the 88.2KHz conversion stated in the manual of the AVR-4806 to challenge their information.
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post #851 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 12:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Some of my favourite posts from Charles Hansen Tim including what it takes to emulate the dl4 jitter reduction in a regular hdmi 1.3 arc avr

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17706885
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17706975
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17782595

Interesting. So HDMI has the tech built-in to the spec to manage the audio timing, yet no one uses it. With all of the criticism of HDMI audio jitter, you would have thought that someone would have taken advantage of the Audio Rate Control channel by now. If only for the specmanship. Charles made that last post back in 2009 and I still haven't heard of anyone using ARC for better HDMI audio performance.
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post #852 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 07:36 PM
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I think Pioneer (PQLS?) and Sony (HATS?) both implement the ARC on HDMI but I only recall reading about this when Kal reviewed the Sony ES SACD player (with HDMI out) that needed to be partnered with a matching Sony AVR. Not sure if Pioneer has a universal or SACD/DVDA player than can do PQLS tho and in all likelihood, you would need to match it to a Pioneer AVR that supported it.

So I guess there's no difference in the way Denon implements theirs, I guess, except that used the DL cable for an external clock control.

http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/30517/44382
Hmm.. apparently, someone did manage to get a Pioneer BDP and a Sony AVR to work in HATS/PQLS.
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post #853 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 07:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

I think Pioneer (PQLS?) and Sony (HATS?) both implement the ARC on HDMI but I only recall reading about this when Kal reviewed the Sony ES SACD player (with HDMI out) that needed to be partnered with a matching Sony AVR. Not sure if Pioneer has a universal or SACD/DVDA player than can do PQLS tho and in all likelihood, you would need to match it to a Pioneer AVR that supported it.

So I guess there's no difference in the way Denon implements theirs, I guess, except that used the DL cable for an external clock control.

http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/30517/44382
Hmm.. apparently, someone did manage to get a Pioneer BDP and a Sony AVR to work in HATS/PQLS.

Yes Sony hats goes way back to days of ilink, cd & sacd was what it was for. The new version just going over hdmi. Pioneer also had hats back in the day also over ilink, would do cd, sacd and dvda, the 969 and 989 players examples of universal players. Pioneer has no universal players using pqls these days. It's only for cd. Now days the Sony 5400es is also only for cd/sacd. None of the systems today are compatible with each other. Denon is only one I know of using audio rate control, for all disc/audio formats. Being proprietary, don't expect it will ever be compatible with another makers product.

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post #854 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 09:16 PM
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Yes Sony hats goes way back to days of ilink, cd & sacd was what it was for. The new version just going over hdmi. Pioneer also had hats back in the day also over ilink, would do cd, sacd and dvda, the 969 and 989 players examples of universal players. Pioneer has no universal players using pqls these days. It's only for cd. Now days the Sony 5400es is also only for cd/sacd. None of the systems today are compatible with each other. Denon is only one I know of using audio rate control, for all disc/audio formats. Being proprietary, don't expect it will ever be compatible with another makers product.

Did you even read the link?

Quote:


Yes, I have several confirmations, none from Pioneer or Sony, that PQLS and HATS are the same.

They aren't talking about the older iLink based older PQLS/HATS but the HDMI ARC version.
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post #855 of 1244 Old 04-08-2011, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

I think Pioneer (PQLS?) and Sony (HATS?) both implement the ARC on HDMI but I only recall reading about this when Kal reviewed the Sony ES SACD player (with HDMI out) that needed to be partnered with a matching Sony AVR. Not sure if Pioneer has a universal or SACD/DVDA player than can do PQLS tho and in all likelihood, you would need to match it to a Pioneer AVR that supported it.

So I guess there's no difference in the way Denon implements theirs, I guess, except that used the DL cable for an external clock control.

http://www.sa-cd.net/showthread/30517/44382
Hmm.. apparently, someone did manage to get a Pioneer BDP and a Sony AVR to work in HATS/PQLS.

Good to get current info on this. Thanks for bringing me up to speed.
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post #856 of 1244 Old 04-09-2011, 12:42 AM
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Did you even read the link?

.

Chill petal ! No ones cramping your style

I didn't read all 24 pages no , just the page linked and there the poster indicates clearly they werent really sure hats was enabled, infact he clarified as per the manual It doesn't mean hats is necessarily being used,

Quote:


I just read pg. 126 of the Sony STR-DA6400ES user manual. The H.A.T.S. indicator does NOT indicate that the device connected has implemented HATS/PQLS/ARC. The indicator simply means that it has been turned ON in the STR-DA6400ES AV receiver.

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They aren't talking about the older iLink based older PQLS/HATS but the HDMI ARC version.

No I'm mentioning ilink because you mentioned you were wondering if pio has a sacd/davda universal , my point was you need to look back to the older ilink pio universals, eg the 969 and 989, if sacd/dvda what your looking for. There's nothing current, and the denon is only one I know that does all disc and audio formats with jitter minimization.

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post #857 of 1244 Old 04-09-2011, 02:28 AM
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Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

BTW - Thanks for posting this info and sorry for not responding sooner. I asked Denon what the sampling rate and bit depth are for DSD to PCM conversion in the AVR-5308, and their response for the time being is 16/48KHz. I tend not to trust the info they provide though, and I've asked them to provide the source of the info and, thanks to your post, I also referenced the 88.2KHz conversion stated in the manual of the AVR-4806 to challenge their information.

Can only agree Tim ; doesnt make a lot of sense when you have al24 dac upsampling to downrez dsd I can understand the circuitry of a bd player necessitating one or the other more easily . To clarify the pqls situation I had a pio51hd a while ago and it had 2ch pqls for cd ;the next gen [ before they started with the sharp ce associated ones] had multichannel hdmi1.3 arc pqls with matching avrs . Not universals though as Al said

Charles iirc said at one stage there may be a firmware upgrade to make a dx5 compatible with a pio avr with ARC but nothing has been seen so never go on chances [ burnt integra dtr10.5 owner ].
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Can only agree Tim ; doesnt make a lot of sense when you have al24 dac upsampling to downrez dsd I can understand the circuitry of a bd player necessitating one or the other more easily . To clarify the pqls situation I had a pio51hd a while ago and it had 2ch pqls for cd ;the next gen [ before they started with the sharp ce associated ones] had multichannel hdmi1.3 arc pqls with matching avrs . Not universals though as Al said

Charles iirc said at one stage there may be a firmware upgrade to make a dx5 compatible with a pio avr with ARC but nothing has been seen so never go on chances [ burnt integra dtr10.5 owner ].

yes pioneer are out of the disc player business now, so note really going to see anything bar rebranded cheapo sharp BD players

and regards sony theyre sacd centric so never ever going to see a universal from them dvda capable. they also seem to have this ability to make really nice players and walk away from them. their 5400es was their last effort, but only cd/sacd rather than a universal that did BD as well. If they had done a follow up on their very nice 5000es BD player adding Sacd capability to it, I reckon it would have been a very popular player. but they walked out on that one too. who knows they might do a universal playing return to it one day, but seems to for now theyve returned back to the forgetable cheapy plastic players that appeals to the mass market

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post #859 of 1244 Old 04-11-2011, 01:02 PM
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Can only agree Tim ; doesnt make a lot of sense when you have al24 dac upsampling to downrez dsd I can understand the circuitry of a bd player necessitating one or the other more easily . To clarify the pqls situation I had a pio51hd a while ago and it had 2ch pqls for cd ;the next gen [ before they started with the sharp ce associated ones] had multichannel hdmi1.3 arc pqls with matching avrs . Not universals though as Al said

Charles iirc said at one stage there may be a firmware upgrade to make a dx5 compatible with a pio avr with ARC but nothing has been seen so never go on chances [ burnt integra dtr10.5 owner ].

cwt - thanks to the info you provided on the AVR-4806 conversion rate, Denon US is going to consult with Denon Japan for the answer on the AVR-5308. I'll report back when I get the answer.
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post #860 of 1244 Old 05-25-2011, 02:15 AM
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Is there no way to update the firmware other than an internet connection?
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post #861 of 1244 Old 05-25-2011, 01:16 PM
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Contact Denon Customer Service and they should be able to send you a CD.
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post #862 of 1244 Old 06-18-2011, 07:06 AM
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Friends!

DBP-4010UDCI with New firmware! Does anyone know what's new?
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post #863 of 1244 Old 06-18-2011, 04:15 PM
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Not sure But I'm downloading it now 34Min it says to DL but should be quicker. I've had issues with several BD's not playing. I'll let everyone know what I find out. Thanks for posting there was a update.

Tony
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post #864 of 1244 Old 06-19-2011, 04:05 AM
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Is the new update still region locked (for DVD's)?
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post #865 of 1244 Old 06-19-2011, 04:02 PM
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Friends!

DBP-4010UDCI with New firmware! Does anyone know what's new?

Will just be fixes and thanks, off to download now!

Re DVD Region free, It won't happen!

I have not noticed any problems with old release but can check if anyone tells me the disc they were having problems with, given I have it of course.
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post #866 of 1244 Old 06-23-2011, 12:14 PM
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Contact Denon Customer Service and they should be able to send you a CD.

In days of old (think 5910), yes, but when I asked the question for our 4010due to our lousy internet service, they said it would have to go to a dealer
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post #867 of 1244 Old 07-14-2011, 06:46 AM
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I have a chance to get the 4010 at a good price from my local dealer. It will be paired with my 5398 AVR. My dealer suggested using only HDMI with Denon Link, letting the receiver do all the decoding. I'm curious to hear other opinions, i.e., if I'm sacrificing anything my not going analog our as well.
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post #868 of 1244 Old 07-15-2011, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave's not Here View Post

I have a chance to get the 4010 at a good price from my local dealer. It will be paired with my 5398 AVR. My dealer suggested using only HDMI with Denon Link, letting the receiver do all the decoding. I'm curious to hear other opinions, i.e., if I'm sacrificing anything my not going analog our as well.

Probably not as the 5398 should have equal or better DACS than the 4010 and you will have jitter free with Denon Link.
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post #869 of 1244 Old 07-21-2011, 06:41 PM
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Hey guys. I have an AVR A100, which is DL4 and an OppoBDP83SE. I must say the system sounds great for BR (I do bitstreamed), SACD (I do DSD sent to A100 for decoding) and DVDA, all via HDMI. Most redbook CDs are a big step down for SQ, though exceptionaly well-recorded ones sound decent. I've been reading this thread and elsewhere and would appreciate some help. I do not care about DACs or video processing in the player, I'm looking for the best digital transport/transmission to my AVR.
Questions:
1. Would Denon Link offer audibly better SQ than what I have?
2. If so, does that apply to some media (such as RBCDs) more than others (BR)? If so, could you recommend a DL3 capable player that would fit the bill?
3. If not, are there less expensive DL4 capable players than this one? IOW how cheap is the buy-in?
TIA
edit: please see post below

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #870 of 1244 Old 07-23-2011, 05:35 AM
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If interested, see here.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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