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post #61 of 1244 Old 10-05-2009, 06:02 PM
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If I select this player, I will be pairing it to a 3808ci. As that AVR is only DL3, will I still be able to pass DSD signals via the DenonLink?

My thought here is that DL4 is only necessary for passing the advanced Blu-ray codecs, which I could get around by using HDMI. In essence, music via DL, and movies via HDMI...
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post #62 of 1244 Old 10-05-2009, 06:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

If I select this player, I will be pairing it to a 3808ci. As that AVR is only DL3, will I still be able to pass DSD signals via the DenonLink?

My thought here is that DL4 is only necessary for passing the advanced Blu-ray codecs, which I could get around by using HDMI. In essence, music via DL, and movies via HDMI...

you betcha--should work fine
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post #63 of 1244 Old 10-05-2009, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post


Based upon DACs, the OPPO could have arguably the better analog two channel output via a dedicated Cirrus Logic CS4398 two channel DAC, .


AJ


hmmmmmm....
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post #64 of 1244 Old 10-06-2009, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

As do I. For that reason, I am interested in the Denon exclusively because I am also in the market for a Denon AVR (or pre/pro) w/ Denon Link 4th, which is the primary digital audio/video advantage the Denon has over the OPPO. The OPPO is no slouch in regards to build quality, but the Denon does appear to get the better of the OPPO there, too. Otherwise, both players implement the same Anchor Bay ABT2010 video processing solution. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, yes?

Based upon DACs, the OPPO could have arguably the better analog two channel output via a dedicated Cirrus Logic CS4398 two channel DAC, while the Denon could be the superior player for analog multichannel output, as its multiple discrete Burr Brown PCM-1796 two channel DACs should trump the lone Cirrus Logic CS4382 eight channel DAC in the OPPO.



Correct. Marantz has no Denon Link equivalent. On very select (and, necessarily, paired) equipment, Sony incorporates HATS, and Pioneer includes PQLS, respectively -- both IEEE 1394 based (i.e. FireWire or i.Link) secure, clock controlled digital links. Other similar digital audio interfaces are limited largely to the uber high end (e.g. Meridian, dCS).

AJ

analog output is not just down to particular dac used. yeah the oppo though it might use certain chip for dac. it is the implementation that counts for analog. I see nothing worth mentioning in the oppos analog stage or its power supply implementation thats about equivalent to a $50 dvd player. you can do a lot better over analog for 2ch than the oppo infact even your very budget cd player from the likes of cambridge or nad is a better option. but hey I'm sure we'll here all sorts or howls and claims from the oppo brigade but what else would you expect !

as you mention if going the way of a denon avr the 4010 would particularly good choice with its capablity over denon link

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post #65 of 1244 Old 10-06-2009, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

but hey I'm sure we'll here all sorts or howls and claims from the oppo brigade but what else would you expect !

Well, I own an Oppo, but I'm not about to "howl" about anything. It's a very-nice little player, a very good value (a tremendous value in the "universal" category), but that's really all I would have to say about it.

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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

as you mention if going the way of a denon avr the 4010 would particularly good choice with its capablity over denon link

I'm sure Denon Link makes the 4010 very attractive for users of a Denon AVR or A/V preamp, but I don't buy into the idea that that's the only reason one should show interest in the 4010 or its Marantz cousin (not that you suggested such a thing, but others have). The DBP-4010 and UD8004 both appear to be beautifully built, reference-quality players, albeit well into the realm of diminishing returns. (Which is to say nothing of the collosal DVD-A1 and UD9004.)
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post #66 of 1244 Old 10-06-2009, 06:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Denophile View Post


hmmmmmm....

When your name is Denophile (which ostensibly means "Denon lover"), you might lack some distance & objectivity.

Plenty prefer the CS4398 to the PCM1796. For example, Marantz, which many consider generally superior to Denon, employs the CS4398 in nearly all of its SACD players.

Additionally, the OPPO player in question maintains a dedicated, optimized analog two channel signal path, while (correct me if I am wrong) the Denon player does not.

Does that alleviate some of your confusion?

AJ
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post #67 of 1244 Old 10-06-2009, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

analog output is not just down to particular dac used. yeah the oppo though it might use certain chip for dac.

That is why I said "Based on DACs..." which limited the scope of the comparison. Did you read my post w/ thorough comprehension?

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Originally Posted by alebonau View Post

it is the implementation that counts for analog. I see nothing worth mentioning in the oppos analog stage or its power supply implementation thats about equivalent to a $50 dvd player. you can do a lot better over analog for 2ch than the oppo infact even your very budget cd player from the likes of cambridge or nad is a better option.

What do you know about the OPPO analog stage? To each his own, but many think that the OPPO is an excellent two channel player.

AJ
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post #68 of 1244 Old 10-06-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

My thought here is that DL4 is only necessary for passing the advanced Blu-ray codecs, which I could get around by using HDMI. In essence, music via DL, and movies via HDMI...

The interesting thing about Denon Link 4th is that all audio data that requires HDMI 1.3 still travels over HDMI. Only the reference clock travels over Denon Link 4th.

But Denon Link (3rd or 4th) is really overkill for lossy & lossless codecs. Link jitter does not detrimentally affect compressed data streams, which must be decompressed and reclocked (at the intended LPCM sampling rate) in the decoder.

So, by my understanding, the primary benefit of Denon Link 4th is limited to LPCM on BD (either native on disc or decoded in player), as those synchronous data streams can be subject to the adverse effects of link jitter.

AJ
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post #69 of 1244 Old 10-07-2009, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

The interesting thing about Denon Link 4th is that all audio data that requires HDMI 1.3 still travels over HDMI. Only the reference clock travels over Denon Link 4th.

But Denon Link (3rd or 4th) is really overkill for lossy & lossless codecs. Link jitter does not detrimentally affect compressed data streams, which must be decompressed and reclocked (at the intended LPCM sampling rate) in the decoder.

So, by my understanding, the primary benefit of Denon Link 4th is limited to LPCM on BD (either native on disc or decoded in player), as those synchronous data streams can be subject to the adverse effects of link jitter.

AJ

I see. My concern was sending SACD over HDMI, owing to that ominous tidbit from the manual:
Super Audio CD audio signals are output at 44.1 kHz/16-bit when the HDMI output is used. In essence, I would prefer an HDMI-only solution, but that does not seem possible if I want the full effects of SACD. This led to my concern that because my AVR (3808ci) is only DL3, I might have a problem passing SACD DSD over DLink.
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post #70 of 1244 Old 10-07-2009, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post

In essence, I would prefer an HDMI-only solution, but that does not seem possible if I want the full effects of SACD. This led to my concern that because my AVR (3808ci) is only DL3, I might have a problem passing SACD DSD over DLink.

If you are concerned about Denon Link compatibility w/ your previous generation AVR, just configure the Denon player to use only Denon Link 3rd:



AJ
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post #71 of 1244 Old 10-07-2009, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

If you are concerned about Denon Link compatibility w/ your previous generation AVR, just configure the Denon player to use only Denon Link 3rd:

Correct - DL3 will support SACD at full resolution. The SACD problem will exist only with receivers / processors that don't have a DL3 or DL4 connection.
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post #72 of 1244 Old 10-07-2009, 08:33 AM
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Hello,
This looks like an excellent player. Very glad to see that it is manufactured in Japan and therefore built in house. As opposed to the 2500 and 3800 which were outsourced to Funai in China.

I owned a 2500BTCI and while loved the styling, the lack of Source Direct, caused me to return it. The 4010 looks worth its asking price. Would have been even more ninja had they kept the Realta chipset, but the one it has is quite good. Great to see that it offers DSD and DVD-A
Cheers,
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post #73 of 1244 Old 10-08-2009, 02:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

If you are concerned about Denon Link compatibility w/ your previous generation AVR, just configure the Denon player to use only Denon Link 3rd:

AJ

Ah, well that is very good news then, no obstacles here. I just hope there will be region-free firmware available shortly after release. That is one of my favorite features on my 3910.
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post #74 of 1244 Old 10-08-2009, 03:59 AM
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I think that the very same procedure for dvd regionfree you used on the 3910 will do the same on the A1UD
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post #75 of 1244 Old 10-17-2009, 09:14 AM
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This unit is up on Crutchfield website...

http://signature.crutchfield.com/S-t...-4010UDCI.html

Available 11/05


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post #76 of 1244 Old 10-17-2009, 08:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DreamCatcher View Post

This unit is up on Crutchfield website...

http://signature.crutchfield.com/S-t...-4010UDCI.html

Available 11/05


Sounds good, but I just tried to sign up for 'send me an e-mail when available' at the 4010 page on the Crutchfield site, and it doesn't let me. Oh well.

I'll still save my pennies waiting to see what happens on 11/5.

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post #77 of 1244 Old 10-24-2009, 09:10 PM
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It's here!!!!!!!!!!!! I picked up this unit today from my dealer here in Socal that I pre-ordered from in early August. Very solid construction and made in Japan with a Sept.09 build, so these are coming guys. Tray mechanism is very quiet and smooth. The color GUI is similar to my Denon AVP, but nicer. Had a little trouble with the 3rd light for the clock control, but did quick searched on the A1UD thread and got the issue reolved. Have not done much except for some listening of an SACD and the sound is superb via DL4 to the AVP. Currently watching Bluray of Transformers 2 and it looks/sounds great.
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post #78 of 1244 Old 10-25-2009, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maison View Post

It's here!!!!!!!!!!!! I picked up this unit today from my dealer here in Socal that I pre-ordered from in early August. Very solid construction and made in Japan with a Sept.09 build, so these are coming guys. Tray mechanism is very quiet and smooth. The color GUI is similar to my Denon AVP, but nicer. Had a little trouble with the 3rd light for the clock control, but did quick searched on the A1UD thread and got the issue reolved. Have not done much except for some listening of an SACD and the sound is superb via DL4 to the AVP. Currently watching Bluray of Transformers 2 and it looks/sounds great.

Im curious is the BD loading times faster??

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post #79 of 1244 Old 10-25-2009, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Maison View Post

It's here!!!!!!!!!!!! I picked up this unit today from my dealer here in Socal that I pre-ordered from in early August....

Thanks for the report. Do you have any experience with the OPPO 83, for comparison purposes? It will be interesting to see how the Denon stacks up, and if the large price differential is justified.
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post #80 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 03:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maison View Post

It's here!!!!!!!!!!!! I picked up this unit today from my dealer here in Socal that I pre-ordered from in early August. Very solid construction and made in Japan with a Sept.09 build, so these are coming guys. Tray mechanism is very quiet and smooth. The color GUI is similar to my Denon AVP, but nicer. Had a little trouble with the 3rd light for the clock control, but did quick searched on the A1UD thread and got the issue reolved. Have not done much except for some listening of an SACD and the sound is superb via DL4 to the AVP. Currently watching Bluray of Transformers 2 and it looks/sounds great.

sounds fantastic maison, look forward to reading more as to how you find it

do post more of your thoughts and impressions of the unit.

am a fellow denon avp owner myself, very keen to know how you find the 4010 with it.

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post #81 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 05:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

The interesting thing about Denon Link 4th is that all audio data that requires HDMI 1.3 still travels over HDMI. Only the reference clock travels over Denon Link 4th.

But Denon Link (3rd or 4th) is really overkill for lossy & lossless codecs. Link jitter does not detrimentally affect compressed data streams, which must be decompressed and reclocked (at the intended LPCM sampling rate) in the decoder.

So, by my understanding, the primary benefit of Denon Link 4th is limited to LPCM on BD (either native on disc or decoded in player), as those synchronous data streams can be subject to the adverse effects of link jitter.

AJ

All of it makes Denon Link 4th kind of a "dud"? I mean it is only applicable for those who have processors which cannot handle DD True HD and DTS-HD MA via bitstream and support only PCM. But then the HDMI SACD limitation in the Denon player makes it undesirable. So, you're better off in this case using the analog outs (assuming you cannot use DL3 or DL2).
In the end I cannot really understand the value proposition of DL4.
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post #82 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

All of it makes Denon Link 4th kind of a "dud"? I mean it is only applicable for those who have processors which cannot handle DD True HD and DTS-HD MA via bitstream and support only PCM. But then the HDMI SACD limitation in the Denon player makes it undesirable. So, you're better off in this case using the analog outs (assuming you cannot use DL3 or DL2).
In the end I cannot really understand the value proposition of DL4.

I am a Denon avp owner as well. I have been waiting for this device to become available.
But now, I have cold feet. Is there any reason to unload 2k for a player that will not make any difference over other machines if the signal stays in digital domain up to the end when bitstreamed to the avp?
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post #83 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I am a Denon avp owner as well. I have been waiting for this device to become available.
But now, I have cold feet. Is there any reason to unload 2k for a player that will not make any difference over other machines if the signal stays in digital domain up to the end when bitstreamed to the avp?

orologio I spoke to a member who tried the DL4 (avp owner also) and he basically could not hear the difference between the HDMI and the DL 4

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post #84 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 06:23 AM
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I mean it is only applicable for those who have processors which cannot handle DD True HD and DTS-HD MA via bitstream and support only PCM.

Incorrect - Denon Link 4th only works on compatible Denon receivers and processors, such as the AVP which can all handle DD True HD and DTS-HD MA decoding. If you have a processor that can't bitstream these formats, it isn't going to have Denon Link 4th support either.
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Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

But then the HDMI SACD limitation in the Denon player makes it undesirable. So, you're better off in this case using the analog outs (assuming you cannot use DL3 or DL2).
In the end I cannot really understand the value proposition of DL4.

If you don't have a compatible Denon Link 3 or 4 processor or receiver, my opinion is that the SACD limitation makes this player and the DVD-A1 a poor choice for anyone who wants to use a digital connection and cares about SACD. Likewise, the mega priced Marantz player is a poor choice unless you only want to use the analog outputs - since it doesn't have Denon Link 4th, the SACD limitation applies across the board if you're using the digital outputs. If you only want to use the analog outputs on these players, then this limitation isn't really an issue.
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post #85 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orologio View Post

I am a Denon avp owner as well. I have been waiting for this device to become available.
But now, I have cold feet. Is there any reason to unload 2k for a player that will not make any difference over other machines if the signal stays in digital domain up to the end when bitstreamed to the avp?

For me the appeal of this unit is that with one box it would replace the 2930 denon link capable universal player & 5000es bd player. Whether a competant bd player the Sony is yet to be proven I guess. I have No doubt of it's capability as a DVD player and universal player for sacs DVD and the like over denon link. it's only on the bd side I wonder given demons previous bd player efforts. Not something I'd give up the awesome Sony to find out.

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post #86 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 07:48 AM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Incorrect - Denon Link 4th only works on compatible Denon receivers and processors, such as the AVP which can all handle DD True HD and DTS-HD MA decoding. If you have a processor that can't bitstream these formats, it isn't going to have Denon Link 4th support either.

Right, it is even worse, DL4 is only applicable to Denon Link processors/AVRs which shortens the applicability considerably.
Quote:


If you don't have a compatible Denon Link 3 or 4 processor or receiver, my opinion is that the SACD limitation makes this player and the DVD-A1 a poor choice for anyone who wants to use a digital connection and cares about SACD. Likewise, the mega priced Marantz player is a poor choice unless you only want to use the analog outputs - since it doesn't have Denon Link 4th, the SACD limitation applies across the board if you're using the digital outputs. If you only want to use the analog outputs on these players, then this limitation isn't really an issue.

Couldn't agree more, it seems to me Denon is providing DL4 as a differentiation if you are a Denon-all customer, but even so it is questionable because you need to use PCM in the player (since bitstreaming is "jitterless" in theory).
If you do not have a Denon AVR/processor then I agree analog out seems to be the best option for this player.
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post #87 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

Right, it is even worse, DL4 is only applicable to Denon Link processors/AVRs which shortens the applicability considerably.

That's what I said, just with different words .
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Originally Posted by sergiohm View Post

but even so it is questionable because you need to use PCM in the player (since bitstreaming is "jitterless" in theory).

I believe that's incorrect - the whole need for DL4 (as opposed to DL3) is for the bitstreamed lossless formats, so DL4 IS for DD True HD and DTS MA, despite the fact that those formats should be jitterless as you say. My understanding is that DL3 can actually handle everything else.
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post #88 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 10:10 AM
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Ok with theory. But in practicality I ask: is bitstreaming jitterless?
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post #89 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 10:12 AM
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orologio I spoke to a member who tried the DL4 (avp owner also) and he basically could not hear the difference between the HDMI and the DL 4

Thanks Franin, that reinforces my doubts... "unfortunately"
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post #90 of 1244 Old 10-26-2009, 10:22 AM
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thanks franin, that reinforces my doubts... "unfortunately"

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