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post #961 of 1244 Old 12-25-2011, 02:05 PM
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Merry XMas.

I am doing DSP on everything because Direct sucks in my room. So everything gets converted to PCM, it's just a matter of where.

My point above was that I can't sort out any common denominator which explains why DL3 sounds better than plain ol' HDMI but DL4 does not. It would be one thing if everything bitstreamed didn't show any SQ improvement, like BluRay. But DSD sounds better over DL than HDMI.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #962 of 1244 Old 12-26-2011, 01:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Merry XMas.

I am doing DSP on everything because Direct sucks in my room. So everything gets converted to PCM, it's just a matter of where.

My point above was that I can't sort out any common denominator which explains why DL3 sounds better than plain ol' HDMI but DL4 does not. It would be one thing if everything bitstreamed didn't show any SQ improvement, like BluRay. But DSD sounds better over DL than HDMI.

Can only think that DL 1-3 has the sound sent over the DL whilst with Blu-rays the sound is sent over the HDMI but the clock is sent to the player from the AVR via the DL which is totally different.
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post #963 of 1244 Old 12-26-2011, 06:07 AM
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^Yes that's right. That could help explain some of my results. Remember that despite 3 Blu lights on the player, there is NO indication of "DenonLink" when using DL4 on my AVR A100. With DL3 there are 2 Blu lights on the player and two lit indicators on the AVR A100 FPD: a little DenonLink light (like the AL24 light) AND the AVRA100 FPD reads DenonLink in large LED letters.

That leaves me with these possible conclusions:

1. DL4 provides no real-world benefit (it's basically marketing "BS"). The DL lights on the AVR are simply not triggered when audio is not present in the DL connection-clock info alone simply doesn't trigger the lights in the AVR because of a minor FW design flaw.

OR

2. DL4 itself is not properly functioning in my AVR or player. So that could mean
a. I don't yet have DL4 working yet because of some settings
(user error) in my system OR
b. Denon has screwed something up in either the AVR A100 (or possibly
the DBP A100) in a major way so DL4 isn't operational for my gear

That I didn't see/hear improvements in SQ/PQ with regular DVD but I did hear SQ improvements with DVDA may be my testing error.

I'll contact Denon CS on this when I get a chance.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #964 of 1244 Old 12-26-2011, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Yes that's right. That could help explain some of my results. Remember that despite 3 Blu lights on the player, there is NO indication of "DenonLink" when using DL4 on my AVR A100. With DL3 there are 2 Blu lights on the player and two lit indicators on the AVR A100 FPD: a little DenonLink light (like the AL24 light) AND the AVRA100 FPD reads DenonLink in large LED letters.

That leaves me with these possible conclusions:

1. DL4 provides no real-world benefit (it's basically marketing "BS"). The DL lights on the AVR are simply not triggered when audio is not present in the DL connection-clock info alone simply doesn't trigger the lights in the AVR because of a minor FW design flaw.

OR

2. DL4 itself is not properly functioning in my AVR or player. So that could mean
a. I don't yet have DL4 working yet because of some settings
(user error) in my system OR
b. Denon has screwed something up in either the AVR A100 (or possibly
the DBP A100) in a major way so DL4 isn't operational for my gear

That I didn't see/hear improvements in SQ/PQ with regular DVD but I did hear SQ improvements with DVDA may be my testing error.

I'll contact Denon CS on this when I get a chance.

There is no indication on the AVR as it is only providing clock to the player over the DL and the player will indicate whether it is getting the clock or not ( third light).

As far as AVR is concerned it is getting audio over HDMI so there will be no DenonLink shown on the AVR display.

So, you have not mis-configured; it is working properly. If you cannot hear a difference then there is no noticeable difference. The intention is to reduce jitter and I suspect the HDMI connection on the Denon does not have significant jitter; hence the SQ difference would not be significant.
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post #965 of 1244 Old 12-27-2011, 05:23 AM
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This makes sense. So DL4 takes the jitter which has been reduced to insignificant by other effective means and reduces it even further.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #966 of 1244 Old 12-27-2011, 08:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greensonor View Post

I couldn't get to the lens. I opened it up and decided it would be a nightmare to take apart. So I closed her back up, opened up the drawer and stuck the straw from the air can in there and blasted away. Sounds crazy, I know, but I went from not being able to play any blu-ray disc I put in to no problems at all after I did that in a matter of seconds.

Chris

I came to the same conclusion, but you get to see how well put together the beast is. My 4010 has worked really well for me- not the fastest machine around, but easily the best I've ever used.
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post #967 of 1244 Old 12-27-2011, 02:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

This makes sense. So DL4 takes the jitter which has been reduced to insignificant by other effective means and reduces it even further.

That is my take
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post #968 of 1244 Old 12-27-2011, 05:14 PM
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Just curious.

The DBP-4010UD comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT2015 processing.

The DBP-2012UD comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT2015 processing.

The DBP-2010 comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT1030 processing

It appears that the 4010UD and 2012UD share the same ABT2015 video processor. For upscaling of standard DVD, how do these three players compare? Is the performance in standard DVD playback between the 4010UD and 2012UD similar? I presume the 4010UD and 2012UD will have a better picture quality than the 2010 in DVD playback?

Any advice appreciated.
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post #969 of 1244 Old 12-28-2011, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilberttv View Post

I came to the same conclusion, but you get to see how well put together the beast is. My 4010 has worked really well for me- not the fastest machine around, but easily the best I've ever used.

Yup, a very well put together machine. It is slow but I really don't mind. Aside from that I really can't complain. I have no use for streaming or 3D so I am pretty content with this player right now.

Chris
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post #970 of 1244 Old 12-30-2011, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ryder_78 View Post

Just curious.

The DBP-4010UD comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT2015 processing.

The DBP-2012UD comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT2015 processing.

The DBP-2010 comes with Anchor Bay VRS ABT1030 processing

It appears that the 4010UD and 2012UD share the same ABT2015 video processor. For upscaling of standard DVD, how do these three players compare? Is the performance in standard DVD playback between the 4010UD and 2012UD similar? I presume the 4010UD and 2012UD will have a better picture quality than the 2010 in DVD playback?

Any advice appreciated.

I'm pretty sure the 4010 uses the anchor bay 2010 chip, same for the OPPO 83. The 2012 uses the 2015 anchor bay. I think the 4010 is the best on SD DVD out of the 4010, OPPO 83, and the 2012. The OPPO is already excellent on SD DVD, but the Denon somehow gives a more refined, detailed picture with better dimension- the difference is'nt huge but I noticed it. I can't imagine SD DVD looking much better than it does on the 4010. I guess this will vary by your screen size, my screen is 40". On Bluray the differences are very small, all 3 are great. The 4010 has better audio and far superior made in Japan build quality- I have all 3 machines right now but will probably be selling the OPPO. I have not experienced any "freezing" issues on the 4010 as some others have. I have not done any "firmware" updates. It has never been connected to the internet. I run it 2 channel analog to a headphone amp.
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post #971 of 1244 Old 01-02-2012, 07:25 PM
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When I compared my Oppo 83 to the 4010, one of the things that I noticed was a lack of noise in dark scenes (like Chris Botti's first concert Bluray) and also a lack of banding in graduated shades. Both were very noticeable on the Oppo.
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post #972 of 1244 Old 01-08-2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

^Yes that's right. That could help explain some of my results. Remember that despite 3 Blu lights on the player, there is NO indication of "DenonLink" when using DL4 on my AVR A100. With DL3 there are 2 Blu lights on the player and two lit indicators on the AVR A100 FPD: a little DenonLink light (like the AL24 light) AND the AVRA100 FPD reads DenonLink in large LED letters.

That leaves me with these possible conclusions:

1. DL4 provides no real-world benefit (it's basically marketing "BS"). The DL lights on the AVR are simply not triggered when audio is not present in the DL connection-clock info alone simply doesn't trigger the lights in the AVR because of a minor FW design flaw.

OR

2. DL4 itself is not properly functioning in my AVR or player. So that could mean
a. I don't yet have DL4 working yet because of some settings
(user error) in my system OR
b. Denon has screwed something up in either the AVR A100 (or possibly
the DBP A100) in a major way so DL4 isn't operational for my gear

That I didn't see/hear improvements in SQ/PQ with regular DVD but I did hear SQ improvements with DVDA may be my testing error.

I'll contact Denon CS on this when I get a chance.



The third light lights up on blu rays only, when hdmi and dl4 are used together to reduce the minimal jitter .What happens is, clock info is passed from the master clock in the processor to the player via dl4 and synchronises it .Nothing else is taking place , and it happens in blu ray only.
It is clearly stated in the manual.
On dsd reproduction the two blue leds light up only.

Limits established to be exceeded.
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post #973 of 1244 Old 01-23-2012, 04:25 AM
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Tried the sequence posted originally by awbh much earlier on this thread, tried reseating the cables, no daggone third light!

Anything else to try????
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post #974 of 1244 Old 01-23-2012, 05:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jomark911 View Post

The third light lights up on blu rays only, when hdmi and dl4 are used together to reduce the minimal jitter .What happens is, clock info is passed from the master clock in the processor to the player via dl4 and synchronises it .Nothing else is taking place , and it happens in blu ray only. It is clearly stated in the manual. On dsd reproduction the two blue leds light up only.

Thanks, but that's all been quite clear to me for some time. I don't see how it sheds any light on my findings. For BluRay I have 3 lights on the player but no SQ or PQ improvement with DL vs plain ol vanilla HDMI; in addition the DenonLink light on the AVR does not light up and the FPD on the AVR says DTS Master or whatever, not DenonLink. For music discs there are 2 blu lights on, there is obvious audible SQ improvement over HDMI; in addition the DenonLink light on the AVR does light up and the FPD on the AVR says DenonLink. To me that suggests either DL jitter elimination has no real world discernible effect on BluRay (ie it's marketing only and of no value) or something is wrong in the process somewhere.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #975 of 1244 Old 01-23-2012, 05:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorO View Post

Tried the sequence posted originally by awbh much earlier on this thread, tried reseating the cables, no daggone third light! Anything else to try????

I've done a search for "third light" on the thread as I initially had difficulty as well. You have found and followed this great post by awbh. Perhaps something in this post or mebbe this one will help.
Note: If you have a Kuro display see this and this.

Not that it really matters...

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #976 of 1244 Old 01-23-2012, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Thanks, but that's all been quite clear to me for some time. I don't see how it sheds any light on my findings. For BluRay I have 3 lights on the player but no SQ or PQ improvement with DL vs plain ol vanilla HDMI; in addition the DenonLink light on the AVR does not light up and the FPD on the AVR says DTS Master or whatever, not DenonLink. For music discs there are 2 blu lights on, there is obvious audible SQ improvement over HDMI; in addition the DenonLink light on the AVR does light up and the FPD on the AVR says DenonLink. To me that suggests either DL jitter elimination has no real world discernible effect on BluRay (ie it's marketing only and of no value) or something is wrong in the process somewhere.

I am on the same page as you for the most.

I believe there is improvement re jitter elimination but the benefit diminishes as the source jitter reduces and/or a store-and-forward process is used.

To me jitter reduction should be of more benefit when decoding direct to analog from the input source as the source clock and destination clocks are not in sync.

Once one goes to a store-and-forward process, ala convert from DTS/Dolby...ect to PCM and then apply post processing, ala Audyssey, then I believe there is no benefit in clock synchronization.

This would suggest that even music in PCM or DSD may not gain as much from clock synchronization if post processing is applied. Then again unsure what post processing is done in real time and what uses store and forward processes.

DSD Direct and Pure Direct should definitely benefit from DL technology; and possibly PCM/DSD source on CD's,Blu-ray's...ect. There may be some benefit also when Audyssey is applied if done in real time.

Would not expect much benefit if any when decoding DTS or Dolby as they are decoded to PCM and then post processing is applied so it definitely uses a store-and-forward process.

Could be wrong but this is my take on things.
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post #977 of 1244 Old 01-24-2012, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

I've done a search for "third light" on the thread as I initially had difficulty as well. You have found and followed this great post by awbh. Perhaps something in this post or mebbe this one will help.
Note: If you have a Kuro display see this and this.

Not that it really matters...

Thanks. One trick pulled out was changing the order of powering up the devices. Still no third blue light, tho
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post #978 of 1244 Old 01-24-2012, 05:28 PM
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Ah well, it's not like your really missing anything IME.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #979 of 1244 Old 01-26-2012, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dilberttv View Post

I'm pretty sure the 4010 uses the anchor bay 2010 chip, same for the OPPO 83. The 2012 uses the 2015 anchor bay. I think the 4010 is the best on SD DVD out of the 4010, OPPO 83, and the 2012. The OPPO is already excellent on SD DVD, but the Denon somehow gives a more refined, detailed picture with better dimension- the difference is'nt huge but I noticed it. I can't imagine SD DVD looking much better than it does on the 4010. I guess this will vary by your screen size, my screen is 40". On Bluray the differences are very small, all 3 are great. The 4010 has better audio and far superior made in Japan build quality- I have all 3 machines right now but will probably be selling the OPPO. I have not experienced any "freezing" issues on the 4010 as some others have. I have not done any "firmware" updates. It has never been connected to the internet. I run it 2 channel analog to a headphone amp.

the denon 4010 uses the 2015 chip. Its a great player but very unreliable.
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post #980 of 1244 Old 01-26-2012, 06:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woof Woof View Post

When I compared my Oppo 83 to the 4010, one of the things that I noticed was a lack of noise in dark scenes (like Chris Botti's first concert Bluray) and also a lack of banding in graduated shades. Both were very noticeable on the Oppo.

The denon uses DPIC [denon pixel image correction] reduces banding.
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post #981 of 1244 Old 01-26-2012, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usman24 View Post

the denon 4010 uses the 2015 chip. Its a great player but very unreliable.

In which way is it unreliable.

I have had one for 2 years without incident and only 2 titles gave me grief out of 500 Blu-rays played. Both fixed with a firmware update.
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post #982 of 1244 Old 02-19-2012, 06:04 PM
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I have my 4010 connected to a 2 channel DAC capable of 24bit/192kHz input with a coaxial digital cable. I am wanting to output the downmixed DTS-HD-MA soundtracks at their maximum bit depth/sampling rate, however on discs I know are 24/96, I am still only getting 48kHz at the DAC (shown on display). I have the digital output set to downmix 2 channel stereo. Am I missing something?

Thanks, Ben
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post #983 of 1244 Old 02-19-2012, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bpchia View Post

I have my 4010 connected to a 2 channel DAC capable of 24bit/192kHz input with a coaxial digital cable. I am wanting to output the downmixed DTS-HD-MA soundtracks at their maximum bit depth/sampling rate, however on discs I know are 24/96, I am still only getting 48kHz at the DAC (shown on display). I have the digital output set to downmix 2 channel stereo. Am I missing something?

Thanks, Ben

DTS HD MA cannot be sent via SPDIF.
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post #984 of 1244 Old 02-20-2012, 02:05 AM
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Woof Woof, I meant a downmixed 2ch PCM 24bit/96kHz.
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post #985 of 1244 Old 02-20-2012, 09:14 AM
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Page 27 of manual

Digital Out
Set·the·audio·signal·of·digital· audio·output.·
(you are asked to refer to pg 17 to see how different codecs are handled)

Bitstream:·
Outputs·a·bitstream·signal.·Converts·Dolby·TrueHD,·Do lby·Digital·Plus·to·Dolby·Digital,·and·DTS-HD·to·DTS·for·output.·

PCM :·
Output·the·downmixed·audio·signal·to·2ch·LPCM.

PCM Down Sampling :·
Convert·sampling·frequency·audio·greater·than·48·kHz ·to·a·48·kHz·2ch·LPCM·audio·output·signal.

•When·outputting·CD,·etc.·to·a·digital·recording·dev ice·such·as·the·CD· recorder,·convert·to·PCM·or·PCM·down·sampling.
• When·a·disc·with·recorded·Linear·PCM·or·PPCM·(Packe d·PCM)·is·played· back,·this·outputs·Linear·PCM·irrespective·of·the·se tting




In Pg 17:
Any of the HD codecs get downgraded to Downmix LPCM
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post #986 of 1244 Old 02-21-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usman24 View Post

the denon 4010 uses the 2015 chip. Its a great player but very unreliable.

Thanks for the info, I have been thinking all this time that the Oppo 83 and the 4010 use the same anchor bay upscaler. Maybe luck of the draw, but my Denon has worked pretty well for me since I got it.
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post #987 of 1244 Old 02-21-2012, 12:15 PM
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^The video quality appears quite similar to the Oppo83 IME (great for both BlRay and DVD) but I'm no videophile.

Yours is no special "luck" as AFAIK the model is indeed reliable. If it wasn't this thread would be peppered with complaints, as these forums disproportionately attract folks with problems looking for solutions.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #988 of 1244 Old 03-26-2012, 07:22 AM
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Can anyone direct me to an online authorized retailer with a decent price on this unit? The 100th anniversary units seem less expensive from what I can find thus far. I'm a stickler, and want the brushed metal look to match my 4311. Thanks!
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post #989 of 1244 Old 03-26-2012, 10:14 AM
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^Hi. See this post for authorized e-tailers you could contact. Not authorized=no OEM warranty. There is a list of authorized dealers and auth on-line dealers right on the DEnon website.

Not that it matters to you, but the only A100 players listed I've seen for less are not the DBPA100 but the lower-priced DVD player.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #990 of 1244 Old 03-26-2012, 03:14 PM
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My 4010 has decided to stop playing most of my blu-ray discs. I keep getting the no disc error. Some have played previously. I am waiting on a quote for repair. Luckily I found a local, authorized repair shop. Unluckily, my unit is OOW and am looking at a 350 to 450 dollar repair bill. The service guy told me Denon won't authorize any repair of the drive mech, only a replacement. He also mentioned that they like to replace the HDMI board as well for whatever reason. Not happy and hope they come back with a reasonable price.
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