Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 13 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #361 of 1445 Old 02-11-2010, 10:28 PM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

BD Players will be out of date in 5 years if not sooner especially where as I can buy a nice monoblock that will last me 10 years and don't have to worries about it.

I disagree. A good monoblock should last more like 50 years. A good pair of Marantz 9's are around 45 years old now and still going strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Plus using the Oppo as a transport with an SSP-800 is all I need, I wish you luck in selling them.

Someday somebody will build a really good SSP. Then you will be able to hear what you have been missing. One way to get an idea of the difference is to just compare in stereo. Take the two-channel output of the Ayre DX-5 and run it through a good preamp (either Ayre or tubes is the safest bet). Then compare that against the Oppo and your SSP in two-channel mode.

While you are at it, you can compare the picture quality. The differences here will be more subtle. But for those with the desire for the best, the difference will be worth it.
Charles Hansen is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #362 of 1445 Old 02-12-2010, 04:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
kucharsk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Louisville, CO
Posts: 3,955
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 38 Post(s)
Liked: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

I disagree. A good monoblock should last more like 50 years. A good pair of Marantz 9's are around 45 years old now and still going strong.

Is that really true?

I would think the design life of electrolytic capacitors would mean that at the least a recap would be required every 15-20 years or so barring components that are actually defective in manufacture.

It would be comforting to know, for example, that a pair of MX-Rs would be the "last amplifier I would ever need to buy" (at my age, an amp that lasts 50 years would very likely outlast me), but at least in my experience so far the life of electrolytics and the cost to recap have been the limiting factors. (Keeping in mind that my audio system does run 24/7.)

Obviously you've far more experience than I in this area, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on it. (Feel free to PM me if you believe my question is too far off-topic for this thread.)
kucharsk is online now  
post #363 of 1445 Old 02-12-2010, 10:06 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sharp1080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern Calif
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by wse View Post

Thanks for the details,

$10K for a Blu Ray player that is based on Oppo is interesting, Even so I have the gren to do so I am not sure it is a wise purchase.

BD Players will be out of date in 5 years if not sooner especially where as I can buy a nice monoblock that will last me 10 years and don't have to worries about it.

Plus using the Oppo as a transport with an SSP-800 is all I need, I wish you luck in selling them.


I have not gone out and purchased an Oppo BD83 yet to compare sonically against my present Panasonic BD30 and Ayre CX7e that I have connected to the new Classe SSP-800 I placed into my own system last Tuesday. I have done a side to side comparison between my own Panasonic BD30 and Ayre CX7e respectively and there's no comparison between the two when playing back CD's in 2 channel mode thru them both. The Ayre was connected using balanced I/C's, Synergistic Research resolution reference in case anyone really cares! The Panasonic was connected using HDMI into the Classe. Both connections were passed thru the Classe's DSP board so there was no claimed mismatch due to the XLR's being hotter than HDMI or any other suspected possible interactions. Charles, if I can somehow rationlize that by buying the DX 5 I'll have the "best of both worlds" I'll definitely buy this unit. I have not found a Blu Ray player yet that matches the CX7e for CD playback! There in itself lies my particular problem.
Sharp1080 is online now  
post #364 of 1445 Old 02-12-2010, 01:39 PM
Senior Member
 
Tim Wiens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 208
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Charles, I'm anxiously awaiting the DX-5. Available next month? It will replace my C-5xeMP and Sony PS3 plus allow me to start transitioning to computer audio. On the latter issue I have a question. To connect the computer (in an adjacent room) with the DX-5, I would have to run the USB cable about 20 feet, part of which would be parallel to some AC lines in the wall. I imagine this wouldn't be optimal. And I understand that you aren't a big fan of transmitting the signal wirelessly.

In a previous post you suggested an optical USB cable. Have you or anyone at Ayre tried these? I see two types: One with the power supply at the receiving end. This isn't appealing since I would be plugging a switching power supply into the same circuit as my KX-R / DX-5 (besides which I have no unused AC outlet). The other has the power supply at the computer end, which would be great, and has a wire carrying DC to the receiving end. Would this second version work well, or do you think the wire carrying the DC would undo the benefits of isolation that optical provides?

Thanks

Auraliti PK90-USB > Ayre DX-5 > Ayre KX-R > Ayre MX-R > YG Kipod II Signature Passive
Tim Wiens is offline  
post #365 of 1445 Old 02-13-2010, 02:41 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by kucharsk View Post

I would think the design life of electrolytic capacitors would mean that at the least a recap would be required every 15-20 years or so barring components that are actually defective in manufacture.

Not really sure, as none of our amps are 50 years old yet!

The caps are rated for silly short times. If you go and look at the specs, they are usually rated for somewhere between 2000 and 4000 hours. But that is only six months of continuous use!!! Clearly they last longer than that. I think part of the disconnect is that the rated lifespan is under the worst-case conditions -- maximum temperature and maximum ripple current.

Occasionally we get an old power amp that needs new caps because one (or more) has started bulging and/or leaking. By old, I mean ten to fifteen years old. But it's not like they all fail. We built around 2000 of our first amp, the V-3, and it runs pretty hot. I would say that the failure rate has been a few percent at most.

The other thing that I've heard is that over time the electrolyte dries out and the capacitors lose some capacity. I'm not sure how you would check for that. Would it sound worse? Maybe. Would you notice it if it happened over a period of years? Maybe.

But it's no big deal for us to check it here. We could just compare the ripple voltage to a new unit and replace any caps that needed it. I think in real life that electrolytics will last between 20 and 50 years, which is why I put that number in my previous post. It's possible that they would last 100 years, but they haven't been around that long....
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #366 of 1445 Old 02-13-2010, 02:51 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharp1080 View Post

I have not found a Blu Ray player yet that matches the CX7e for CD playback! There in itself lies my particular problem.

All of our optical disc players share a common design approach. All have current-output DAC chips with discrete current-to-voltage converters, zero feedback circuitry, discrete zero-feedback power supply regulators, fully balanced from the DAC to the analog outputs, and so forth.

Currently we make two disc players, the CX-7eMP and the C-5xeMP. We are about to add the DX-5. Those are in order of sonic performance. The reasons for this are as follows:

CX-7eMP to C-5xeMP:

a) Fully discrete analog circuitry.
b) Higher quality film capacitors.
c) Higher quality resistors.
d) Higher quality PCB material.
e) Double-regulated power supplies.

The main improvement of the DX-5 over the C-5xeMP for playing optical discs is that the DX-5 has the Equilock circuitry that we developed for the MX-R's. You will notice an appreciable sonic improvement from the DX-5 compared to the CX-7eMP. If you don't yet have the MP upgrade installed, the improvement will be even greater.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #367 of 1445 Old 02-13-2010, 03:13 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wiens View Post

Charles, I'm anxiously awaiting the DX-5. Available next month?

I would say one to two months from now, as a best guess. We have ordered all of the parts and have started building players, but there are two boards that were giving us fits -- the HDMI Audio Output board and the 192 kHz capable USB input board. (Plus we have some more firmware to write.)

As we were working on the HDMI Audio board we kept figuring out ways to make it perform at a higher level. The main thing is to keep the jitter on the audio signal as low as possible, whether or not Audio Rate Control is engaged. So we figured out a system where the unit will sense when it is connected to a powered HDMI sink (SSP). Then an ultra-low-jitter master clock on the HDMI Audio board will take over, shutting down the analog audio outputs and providing the master clock for the player. It was just finished today and sent to the board house to order the first 100 pieces.

Achieving 192 kHz on USB is pretty much a "bleeding edge" task. The chips that can do that are brand new and require a lot of custom programming. The biggest problem is that the programming tools are also brand new and tend to be on the buggy side. We have lost a lot of blood, but we are getting close. We hope to have that working properly within a week so that we can order those boards also. Once we get that ordered, we should be able to ship within a month or so. But don't forget that we already have over 100 units on back-order, so it could take a while to get your player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wiens View Post

And I understand that you aren't a big fan of transmitting the signal wirelessly.

In a previous post you suggested an optical USB cable. Have you or anyone at Ayre tried these? I see two types: One with the power supply at the receiving end. This isn't appealing since I would be plugging a switching power supply into the same circuit as my KX-R / DX-5 (besides which I have no unused AC outlet).

Wireless tends to degrade the sound of your system, as it is a major source of RFI that gets into all of your cables, interconnects, and house's internal AC wiring. It also has trouble keeping up with the data rates of 192 kHz audio. I definitely recommend a wired connection.

We haven't tried an optical USB cable yet. If you want to take the easy route, use one that is powered by the computer. The USB input has circuitry that is also powered by the computer. Then there is a bank of opto-isolators that keeps the computer noise out of the audio circuitry. So there are actually three separate (galvanically isolated) grounds in the unit -- video, audio, and computer.

But everything makes a difference, and it might make a small improvement to power the receiver end with a linear power supply. So if you are hard-core and want to get the absolute best, you might try the powered style and replace the switching power supply with a linear wall-wart.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #368 of 1445 Old 02-13-2010, 09:52 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Sharp1080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern Calif
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

All of our optical disc players share a common design approach. All have current-output DAC chips with discrete current-to-voltage converters, zero feedback circuitry, discrete zero-feedback power supply regulators, fully balanced from the DAC to the analog outputs, and so forth.

Currently we make two disc players, the CX-7eMP and the C-5xeMP. We are about to add the DX-5. Those are in order of sonic performance. The reasons for this are as follows:

CX-7eMP to C-5xeMP:

a) Fully discrete analog circuitry.
b) Higher quality film capacitors.
c) Higher quality resistors.
d) Higher quality PCB material.
e) Double-regulated power supplies.

The main improvement of the DX-5 over the C-5xeMP for playing optical discs is that the DX-5 has the Equilock circuitry that we developed for the MX-R's. You will notice an appreciable sonic improvement from the DX-5 compared to the CX-7eMP. If you don't yet have the MP upgrade installed, the improvement will be even greater.

Thank you Charles. Back in December I had asked Brian Berdan to send my CX-7e back to the factory for the MP update but there was a waiting list for updating the CX-7e. That was my original plan and now I 'm reading that you plan on releasing the DX-5 this year. Not cheap but since I've been happy with my CX-7e I can get that and more with a DX-5. Plus the added fact I do watch movies and music videos in the Blu ray format. Dolby Tru HD and DTS-MA sound pretty good to my ears.
Sharp1080 is online now  
post #369 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 09:48 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Bulldogger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Clinton,MS
Posts: 6,683
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

Not really sure, as none of our amps are 50 years old yet!

The caps are rated for silly short times. If you go and look at the specs, they are usually rated for somewhere between 2000 and 4000 hours. But that is only six months of continuous use!!! Clearly they last longer than that. I think part of the disconnect is that the rated lifespan is under the worst-case conditions -- maximum temperature and maximum ripple current.

Occasionally we get an old power amp that needs new caps because one (or more) has started bulging and/or leaking. By old, I mean ten to fifteen years old. But it's not like they all fail. We built around 2000 of our first amp, the V-3, and it runs pretty hot. I would say that the failure rate has been a few percent at most.

The other thing that I've heard is that over time the electrolyte dries out and the capacitors lose some capacity. I'm not sure how you would check for that. Would it sound worse? Maybe. Would you notice it if it happened over a period of years? Maybe.

But it's no big deal for us to check it here. We could just compare the ripple voltage to a new unit and replace any caps that needed it. I think in real life that electrolytics will last between 20 and 50 years, which is why I put that number in my previous post. It's possible that they would last 100 years, but they haven't been around that long....

Charles what do you think of thermatrack or something like that, transistors?

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
Bulldogger is online now  
post #370 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 12:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
dicey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SoCal
Posts: 555
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

So we figured out a system where the unit will sense when it is connected to a powered HDMI sink (SSP). Then an ultra-low-jitter master clock on the HDMI Audio board will take over, shutting down the analog audio outputs and providing the master clock for the player.

How will this work out for people who plan on using both analog and HDMI outputs simultaneously? I plan on connecting the analog outs to my stereo preamp and the HDMI to my AVR.

I guess my question is that if the HDMI is connected but not actively being used, will it still mute the analog outputs?

You are all WEIRDOS! - Sam the Eagle
dicey is offline  
post #371 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 12:37 PM
AVS Special Member
 
robena's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,682
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Charles,

When you announced your player, I thought that it had been a very smart move to wait for a stable and perfectly working platform like the Oppo before investing into making an high-end player.

But now, 3D is coming, and Oppo is saying (I think) that their player won't be upgradable to support it.

It seems that your player is in that aspect going to be obsolete very soon.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Robert
robena is offline  
post #372 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 12:49 PM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

Charles what do you think of thermatrack or something like that, transistors?

Transistors should have a very long lifespan, as long as they aren't abused. Take a MOSFET for example (although we don't use them much anymore). They have only two failure mechanisms:

a) They get so hot that the silicon fuses. This is typically at 150 C, or close to 300 F. We design our parts to run very conservatively. We like to limit our designs to a maximum temperature of 70 C, or less than half the maximum. Even with an overload like a short circuit shouldn't damage things.

b) The gate-source voltage gets too high and the oxide insulating layer punctures. This would never happen in a forward conducting state, but it could happen in a reverse direction. However, it is easily avoided by using a zener diode to protect the gate.

A bipolar transistor has one major additional mode. This is called "secondary breakdown". Many transistors will go into thermal runaway when they get hot and self-destruct. When a bipolar transistor gets too hot, there are very small areas of local thermal runaway called "hot spots". This occurs when the transistor has both a large current and a large voltage across it.

Our designs avoid this completely as we use a balanced bridge output stage. This allows us to use half the supply voltage that would normally be required to achieve a given output power. For example, the MX-R (our most powerful amp at 300 watts) has rail voltages of +/-38 volts, but the output transistors are rated at 260 volts.

There are other failure mechanisms, also. But overall, properly designed solid-state electronics should last many decades.

You mentioned ThermalTrak transistors. This is On Semiconductor's name for a power transistor designed specifically for audio power amplifiers that has a built-in diode to sense the temperature of the device, which then allows for more accurate control of the bias. We were the first company to use these, followed shortly by McIntosh and Crown, and later by Audio Research. It turns out that the first batches of these had some sort of defect that would affect the voltage across the diode. This in turn would cause the amplifier to overheat and then shut down. In our case, the trigger point was 45 C, far, far from the parts' rated maximum of 150 C so there was no fear of damage to any of the other parts. They finally "tracked" (pun intended) the problem down and now the parts are quite reliable. That is the main failure mode in a well-designed solid-state product -- bad batches of raw parts.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #373 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 12:57 PM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by dicey View Post

How will this work out for people who plan on using both analog and HDMI outputs simultaneously? I plan on connecting the analog outs to my stereo preamp and the HDMI to my AVR.

I guess my question is that if the HDMI is connected but not actively being used, will it still mute the analog outputs?

If you simply turn your AVR off, it will turn off the DX-5's HDMI audio output and it's master clock. This will return control to the audio master clocks and turn the analog outputs back on.

But both outputs can't be used at the same time. The only way to do that would be to lower the performance of one output or the other. There can only be one master clock and it has to come from either the HDMI audio board (which runs at 74.25 MHz for 720p) or the analog audio circuitry (which runs at either 22.5792 MHz for CD or 24.576 MHz for DVD and Blu-Ray). You can convert the audio clock to the video clock (or vice-versa) with a PLL, but that adds jitter. Other companies may do that, but that is not the Ayre way. We will not sacrifice performance simply to add features.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #374 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 01:17 PM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by robena View Post

But now, 3D is coming, and Oppo is saying (I think) that their player won't be upgradable to support it.

Uhhh.....

3-D is definitely coming to movie theaters. I have seen two so far -- Up and Avatar. When I saw Avatar, they had a preview for Pirahna - 3D!!

I think it will be a very long time (if ever) before it comes to your house.

Think about what we have so far:

a) The Blu-Ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced a spec, but they haven't actually released it.

b) There were four prototype BD players at CES.

That's about it....

There are no titles you can buy.
There are no displays you can buy.
There are no players you can buy.
There is no system that has been proposed for broadcasting.
There is no system that has been proposed for satellite.
There is no system that has been proposed for cable.
All systems developed so far require special glasses.

Then even if all of these hurdles are overcome, you will have to replace every single component in your system (display, player, cable box, satellite box). The cost will be far higher. (The talk at CES was that the Blu-Ray players would cost several thousand dollars.) How many people are going to do that so they can watch Pirahna - 3D?

The real reason for all of this is simply sheer desperation on the part of the Japanese majors. They were fat, dumb, and happy with the profits from CD. After everyone had bought a CD player, they were desperate to repeat it that success. They did so with DVD. But then China emerged on the scene. Suddenly the prices of players plunged, and along with it the profits of the Japanese companies.

So they introduced Blu-Ray. Nice picture. But it has only gotten 10% market penetration in the US. (Even less in Europe.) Only people like you and I care about the extra quality. The price of players keeps dropping. And it's ironic that the Oppo at $500 is outselling the Japanese players selling for half the price! (Of course the Japanese players are all made in China now anyway....)

All of the Japanese companies (except Panasonic) are bleeding money badly. They are panicked and don't know what to do. They are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, clutching at any straw that they think will make them money. So now they are trying to promote 3D with the hopes that people will line up to buy multi-thousand dollar players and new displays to watch Pirahna - 3D.

It is completely stupid. But most consumers are stupid, so it is possible that eventually it will take hold. And even if it does, it will only be a year or two before the Chinese players undercut the Japanese players on price. Then they will invent Purpl-Ray and 4D to try and sell you more crap that you don't need....
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #375 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 04:23 PM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:


So if you are hard-core and want to get the absolute best, you might try the powered style and replace the switching power supply with a linear wall-wart.

I have some six wall-warts in the system and thought it might be interesting to start upgrading them. I don't have any DIY skills so I wanted to find something as close as possible to turn-key.

Some casual googling found the following:

Acopian power supplies. They have exceptional specs and are relatively expensive, $125+, for converters. They do weigh some 5 lbs and are not made for the audiophile world.

These have to be put inside another chassis as the AC is connected via an external barrier strip. It looks like they will put them in a NEMA box on request. You can choose from a wide variety of VDC and amps.

Here is the home page link: http://www.acopian.com/

Here is the link to the Gold Box high performance linear regulated power supply. There are specs, schematics, etc, available from their links.

http://www.acopian.com/single-l-goldbox-m.html

Audiophile PSU with nice toroid. I don't know if they have other VDC and amps available.

http://www.audio-magus.com/KingRex_PSU_p/109107.htm

I would very much appreciate your recommendations. Thanks kindly.
GGA is offline  
post #376 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 05:09 PM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Have not been to this thread for a couple days, so some of my replies are to older posts.

Quote:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen
I'm not sure that people want to listen to 64 kbs MP3 internet radio over a $10,000 source component.

Originally Posted by Flip14
True, but if I *have* to listen for whatever reason I would rather use the best piece of equipment I can afford to avoid even more degradation of the signal.

I agree very much with the latter statement. Listening to DD through my Ayre DX-7e player the sound is improved over other players I have tried. Sure it is not DTS Master Audio but it is darn good to me and once the movie starts the lossy audio is soon forgotten.

Quote:


But if you don't listen to two-channel music a lot, the ultra-high quality analog audio outputs would be wasted. In that case what might more sense would be to offer a different version, say a "DX-5t". This would strictly be a digital transport, with no analog audio outputs and no USB audio input (for use a music server with a PC). Then you would connect this to an Ayre-designed scaler/video switcher.

This second product would have multiple inputs (HDMI and legacy) and then two HDMI outputs -- one for video and one for audio. The audio output would be isolated, making it dead simple to isolate your video and audio systems even with multiple video sources.

I think this would be a terrific product and outsell the DAC version, assuming retail around $5-6000. It is exactly what the guys in the 20k forum are looking for. I'd recommend three HDMI outs: one for audio, one for video for a direct run to the projector (mainly for BD), and the last for video to a video processor.

A standalone HDMI switcher that separates audio and video and their respective grounds could also be very popular, in my opinion. Adding the ability to duplicate (split) the video out would make it even more useful.

Quote:


But both outputs can't be used at the same time. The only way to do that would be to lower the performance of one output or the other. There can only be one master clock and it has to come from either the HDMI audio board (which runs at 74.25 MHz for 720p) or the analog audio circuitry (which runs at either 22.5792 MHz for CD or 24.576 MHz for DVD and Blu-Ray). You can convert the audio clock to the video clock (or vice-versa) with a PLL, but that adds jitter.

This caught me by surprise as I had hoped to use the analog and HDMI outs simultaneously. This would make a transport only version even more important.

Right now I use your DX-7e DVD transport with one digital out going to the SSP for sides and rears and the other to an external DAC for L/R (I don't use a center). I had hoped to duplicate this with the DX-5 but I now see that the HDMI restrictions will not make it possible.

There was an "upgrade" firm that modified the Oppo BD-83s so that one could obtain full resolution, unencrypted audio by tapping into the circuit before HDCP was applied. Is this lawful?
GGA is offline  
post #377 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 05:15 PM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:


This second product would have multiple inputs (HDMI and legacy) and then two HDMI outputs -- one for video and one for audio. The audio output would be isolated, making it dead simple to isolate your video and audio systems even with multiple video sources.

How is isolation affected given that all our components have the AC circuit in common. Should we worry about isolating the AC circuits of the projector and SSP from each other using dedicated runs, isolation transformers, or AC filters?
GGA is offline  
post #378 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 05:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,885
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 740 Post(s)
Liked: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

I think it will be a very long time (if ever) before it comes to your house.

Ever is a long time. I think it'll be rather sooner than that.

Quote:


a) The Blu-Ray Disc Association (BDA) has announced a spec, but they haven't actually released it.

Don't have to release it to start designing chips and players. The BDA members have the specs.

Quote:


There are no titles you can buy.
There are no displays you can buy.
There are no players you can buy.

"All in good time, my pretty."
Quote:


There is no system that has been proposed for broadcasting.

Proposals are being made.
Quote:


There is no system that has been proposed for satellite.

DirecTV's doing it this year.
Quote:


There is no system that has been proposed for cable.

Similar solution as satellite can be used.
Quote:


All systems developed so far require special glasses.

Yes.
Quote:


Then even if all of these hurdles are overcome, you will have to replace every single component in your system (display, player, cable box, satellite box).

Pretty much.

Quote:


The cost will be far higher. (The talk at CES was that the Blu-Ray players would cost several thousand dollars.)

There's no reason the costs would be dramatically higher once in mass production. Did anyone say why it would cost so much?

Quote:


The price of players keeps dropping. And it's ironic that the Oppo at $500 is outselling the Japanese players selling for half the price!

The Oppo does more than those cheaper players, and does it better. Seems only right it should cost a little more.

FWIW, I will never have a 3D system--I cannot see 3D.

Deadwood Atmos theater
AV7702 Atmos 7.4.4, SSP-800 PLIIx 7.4
Aerial Acoustics 7B/CC3B fronts, B&W CWM8180 surrounds, Tannoy Di6 DC heights, Hsu ULS-15 subs
Roger Dressler is online now  
post #379 of 1445 Old 02-14-2010, 05:51 PM
Senior Member
 
scottsol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Evanston, Il
Posts: 460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post


I think it will be a very long time (if ever) before it comes to your house.

So now they are trying to promote 3D with the hopes that people will line up to buy multi-thousand dollar players and new displays to watch Pirahna - 3D.

Next month Sony will release a player selling for less than $200 that they claim has all the hardware needed for 3D and should become 3D capable with a firmware update they expect to be ready in June or July.

At about the same time the firmware will be ready they will be releasing a series of 3D LCD sets ranging in size from 40" to 60" and priced from about $2000 to $4000. The less expensive sets will need optional glasses and a synchronization emitter while the more expensive ones will come complete with 2 pair of glasses and a built in emitter.

I don't have details on the plans of the other major manufacturers but it is clear they will have similar products.

It is really not surprising to me that these products are not that expensive. The players only need an output capability equivalent of 1080p48 and all the better LCD displays are running at a minimum of 120Hz already.

For front projection is should be easy to add this to the LED lit DLP units.

Now none of this speaks to whether 3D will or should be successful, but it's coming very soon.

As far as the DX-5 is concerned, the best products have always been behind the curve when it comes to the latest features, and that's the way it should be. After all, the reason they are the best is because the manufacturer took the time to do it right, and you can't easily do that and be up to date with the feature set.
scottsol is offline  
post #380 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 10:44 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

I have some six wall-warts in the system and thought it might be interesting to start upgrading them. I don't have any DIY skills so I wanted to find something as close as possible to turn-key.

Almost anything will work here, as long as it is linear. A switcher is just going to dump a bunch of noise onto the AC line. A Radio Shack wall wart would probably work, but one of the ones you found will work better. The Acarians look good but I couldn't find any schematics and you would have to deal with the exposed AC connection. They do mention a barrier strip cover option, and maybe that's all you need. You don't need the high-performance series, the regular ones are plenty good for this application.

The other one looks like it is made for one specific voltage that matches some of their other products. If that is the right voltage, I'm sure that would work well also. Another option is to make friends with a DIY'er and pay him to build something. Let us know what you get and what kind of differences it makes in your system.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #381 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:03 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

I think this would be a terrific product and outsell the DAC version, assuming retail around $5-6000. It is exactly what the guys in the 20k forum are looking for. I'd recommend three HDMI outs: one for audio, one for video for a direct run to the projector (mainly for BD), and the last for video to a video processor.

Once we get the DX-5 into production, we'll take a look at that. Most of our customers are audio customers. They are quite happy with an HT-2.0 system. The other question is how much money it would save. It it were only 10% cheaper, there probably wouldn't be much point in offering two versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

A standalone HDMI switcher that separates audio and video and their respective grounds could also be very popular, in my opinion. Adding the ability to duplicate (split) the video out would make it even more useful.

It would be an interesting product. I'm not sure how many people still use an external scaler and how many people would want to replace theirs. So it would be a bit of a pig in the poke for us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

This caught me by surprise as I had hoped to use the analog and HDMI outs simultaneously. This would make a transport only version even more important.

You still could do that with the main HDMI output that carries both video and audio. It's only when the HDMI audio-only output is activated that the analog audio outputs would shut down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

Right now I use your DX-7e DVD transport with one digital out going to the SSP for sides and rears and the other to an external DAC for L/R (I don't use a center). I had hoped to duplicate this with the DX-5 but I now see that the HDMI restrictions will not make it possible.

In addition to the main HDMI output, the AES/EBU output will also provide compressed audio. However, I'm not sure how that works with the lossless formats. When a lossless format is selected on the Oppo (I assume that this done from the disc's menu) will the S/PDIF output a lossy format? If so, then you could still use the analog output for the front channels and either the main HDMI or the AES/EBU output for the other channels.

(Sorry, I've never played with a Blu-Ray disc. I work from home since my accident and haven't had a chance to fiddle with the player and the plasma that is at work.)

However, the default for the analog outputs is a mixdown of all the channels. We're not sure if we will add a switch that will select just the Front R+L channels. Even if we did, then there would be someone that also wanted to mix the center channel to create a phantom center...

Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

There was an "upgrade" firm that modified the Oppo BD-83s so that one could obtain full resolution, unencrypted audio by tapping into the circuit before HDCP was applied. Is this lawful?

I don't think the FBI is going to bust down your front door if you are playing a movie with one of these things...
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #382 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:04 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

How is isolation affected given that all our components have the AC circuit in common. Should we worry about isolating the AC circuits of the projector and SSP from each other using dedicated runs, isolation transformers, or AC filters?

Yep.

But if your components are connected without the galvanic isolation offered by the Ayre equipment, then it doesn't matter.
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #383 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:07 AM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Thanks again for your invaluable help.

The link for the schematic was buried under "Instructions." Here it is in case you are curious:

http://www.acopian.com/single-l-goldbox-i.html
GGA is offline  
post #384 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

It is really not surprising to me that these products are not that expensive. The players only need an output capability equivalent of 1080p48 and all the better LCD displays are running at a minimum of 120Hz already.

"Better LCD displays".... Isn't that an oxymoron?

Quote:
Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

Now none of this speaks to whether 3D will or should be successful, but it's coming very soon.

Yep. They're desperate all right. Go online and do a search for Sony's last annual report. They are a publicly traded company, so they have to publish it. I don't think you'll need to be a financial genius to see why they are so desperate to make everything you own "obsolete"...
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #385 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:16 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Ever is a long time. I think it'll be rather sooner than that.

Roger, I've given up trying to argue with you. You always win...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

FWIW, I will never have a 3D system--I cannot see 3D.

Sorry to hear that, but I don't think you're missing that much when it comes to movies. Sure Avatar was cool in 3D. But it would have just as enjoyable in 2D. I don't think that I'll ever have a 3D system either. But I still don't have surround sound in my home!
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #386 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 11:28 AM
Advanced Member
 
Charles Hansen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA (that's actually my Doppelgänger)
Posts: 952
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post

The link for the schematic was buried under "Instructions." Here it is in case you are curious:[/url]

Either one is going to be complete overkill for what you are doing. However, if you are replacing several wall-warts, it is quite possible that you could combine the ones with the same voltage onto one supply.

If the "deluxe" model isn't too much more expensive, I would lean toward that simply because it is an all-discrete circuit. The other one uses an IC regulator. But that is going completely over the top...
Charles Hansen is offline  
post #387 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 12:06 PM
GGA
Advanced Member
 
GGA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Topanga CA
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:


But that is going completely over the top...

Does that mean I could get a job at Ayre......??
GGA is offline  
post #388 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 12:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Sharp1080's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern Calif
Posts: 1,842
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked: 51
Charles,

"Once we get the DX-5 into production, we'll take a look at that. Most of our customers are audio customers. They are quite happy with an HT-2.0 system. The other question is how much money it would save. It it were only 10% cheaper, there probably wouldn't be much point in offering two versions".


I love listening to 2.0 which is actually 2.2 in my present setup. I also love watching movies and concert videos on Blu ray because of the DTS-MA and Dolby Tru HD lossless formats available for sometime now! That requires 5.1 or 7.1, for myself and I'm sure countless others? The DX-5 will provide that correct? I need a player passing the highest quality video and audio thru HDMI? I would think there are others like me that have grown beyond a HT consisting of 2.0? Have you at all had the opportunity to listen to the new lossless formats Charles? They are both rather nice and IMHO are the perfect codecs for high resolution audio only discs. For those of us already at that point in our personal systems.
Sharp1080 is online now  
post #389 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 01:07 PM
Newbie
 
rfmiami's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Pembroke Pines, Florida
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharp1080 View Post

charles,

"once we get the dx-5 into production, we'll take a look at that. Most of our customers are audio customers. They are quite happy with an ht-2.0 system. The other question is how much money it would save. It it were only 10% cheaper, there probably wouldn't be much point in offering two versions".


i love listening to 2.0 which is actually 2.2 in my present setup. I also love watching movies and concert videos on blu ray because of the dts-ma and dolby tru hd lossless formats available for sometime now! That requires 5.1 or 7.1, for myself and i'm sure countless others? The dx-5 will provide that correct? I need a player passing the highest quality video and audio thru hdmi? I would think there are others like me that have grown beyond a ht consisting of 2.0? Have you at all had the opportunity to listen to the new lossless formats charles? They are both rather nice and imho are the perfect codecs for high resolution audio only discs. For those of us already at that point in our personal systems.

+1
rfmiami is offline  
post #390 of 1445 Old 02-15-2010, 02:41 PM
Senior Member
 
scottsol's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Evanston, Il
Posts: 460
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
The HDMI will absolutely pass the True HD and Master Audio signals. It is for optimizing that use that AYRE has worked so hard on the separate clock for the audio only HDMI output. For 2 channel use they want to use the analog out as a superior sounding path.
scottsol is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Blu Ray Players , Marantz

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off