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post #1171 of 1445 Old 07-03-2013, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

Hello Ramses,

This should be quite easy to track down. Simply connect the Audio-Only HDMI output to your display. You should get a plain grey picture of 720p, and the sound should be coming out of the speakers (if any) attached to the display..Try this and report back. Also I assume that you purchase it used? Do you have the serial number available? And finally, in what city and country are you located?

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.




Charles,

Thank you very much for your reply and instructions.

I connected the HDMI Audio Output directly to my display and did not get a gray screen of 720p - the screen remained black.

I did purchase the unit pre-owned; its serial is 120.

I am in Los Angeles USA.
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post #1172 of 1445 Old 07-03-2013, 10:56 AM
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Ramses,

Here is another thought. To keep the audio ground isolated from the video ground, the hole in the chassis is larger than a normal HDMI connector. There should be about 1 mm of clearance between the shell of the connector and the chassis all the way around the connector. If you have some strange "audiophile" cable that has oversized ends, then it might be possible that the connector is hitting the outside of the chassis and preventing it from full insertion. I've never heard of this happening before, but it is possible that this is the problem.

Thanks
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.


Charles,

I do have a peripheral clearance of about a millimeter around. I do hear a sort clicking sound when I insert the cable which seems to indicate to me that it is secure and in place despite the slight protrusion of the end of the cable. I'm using the Wireworld Platinum Starlight cable.

Thanks so much.
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post #1173 of 1445 Old 07-03-2013, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Ramses88 View Post

Charles,

Thank you very much for your reply and instructions.

I connected the HDMI Audio Output directly to my display and did not get a gray screen of 720p - the screen remained black.

I did purchase the unit pre-owned; its serial is 120.

I am in Los Angeles USA.

Hello Ramses,

I think you are looking at the voltage rating and not the serial number. The serial number should have two numbers followed by a letter, then four more numbers, and possibly one more letter.

There is definitely something wrong with the unit. Did it ever work for you? You will need to send it back to the factory Please call Michael at 303-442-7300 x223. You will probably need to leave a message. He will give you an RMA number so that we know what it is when it shows up.

Thanks,
Charles Hanseen,
Ayre Acoustics, Inc
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post #1174 of 1445 Old 07-03-2013, 08:39 PM
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Hello Ramses,

I think you are looking at the voltage rating and not the serial number. The serial number should have two numbers followed by a letter, then four more numbers, and possibly one more letter.

There is definitely something wrong with the unit. Did it ever work for you? You will need to send it back to the factory Please call Michael at 303-442-7300 x223. You will probably need to leave a message. He will give you an RMA number so that we know what it is when it shows up.

Thanks,
Charles Hanseen,
Ayre Acoustics, Inc


Oops!!! Sorry about that Charles. What I see on the back is S.N. 1900174. I can't tell if the third number is a zero or a letter (it was written with black marker in the designated box).

I just received the unit a few days ago. The dedicated HDMI Audio never did work. I had just spent the last few days trying to figure out why. It's previous owner said it worked fine with his Marantz 8801.

Two channel analog playback works however I did notice that when playing a DVD-Audio disc there was some random clipping in the track. I saw a red light flash each time it occurred. The disc is brand new. I cleaned out a bit of dust from the tray and it decreased but was still present - quarter second pauses in the middle of the track. The disc was 24-bit 88Khz music. I did not notice this issue with CDs.

I gave Michael a call and left a message. Hopefully I'll get the RMA number early tomorrow (or Friday since tomorrow is the 4th) so I can send it out asap. Do you have an approximate turnaround time?

Also, I don't believe this unit has the analog upgrade. Is that something I can have done simultaneously? I heard there may be another upgrade approaching; is there any merit to that?

Thanks so much Charles.
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post #1175 of 1445 Old 07-06-2013, 06:57 AM
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Hello Charles,

please allow two questions that came up recently:

1) Although I've read the manual, I do not completely understand the "mixdown mode" options in the speaker configuration settings. Does it make any difference in terms of what's the ouput of the DX-5 through HDMI audio-only when the mixdown mode, or general speaker configuration, is set to "7.1" or "5.1"? I'm using a 5.1 speaker setup. and I'm wondering why the signal input detector of my processor preamp always detects a "7.1", independent of the disc inserted (a stereo CD or SACD, or a 5.1 DVD, for example). I've had the chance to try with an (also Oppo-based) Primare player, here the processor detects the correct format of what's on the disc. So what's the best setting in my configuration for the "mixdown" (btw, I never use mixdown of multichannel sources to stereo output)?

2) Is there a way to play CDs, DVD-As, or multichannel SACDs, "gapless", without interrupting sound between tracks? Since many discs, classical, but also many rock albums have tracks that flow from one to the next without separation, it would be a valuable option to have "gapless" playback. Interestingly, when playing a DVD-Video or BD-Video, the playback is gapless!

Best

Werner
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post #1176 of 1445 Old 07-06-2013, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramses88 View Post

Oops!!! Sorry about that Charles. What I see on the back is S.N. 1900174. I can't tell if the third number is a zero or a letter (it was written with black marker in the designated box).

I just received the unit a few days ago. The dedicated HDMI Audio never did work. I had just spent the last few days trying to figure out why. It's previous owner said it worked fine with his Marantz 8801.

Two channel analog playback works however I did notice that when playing a DVD-Audio disc there was some random clipping in the track. I saw a red light flash each time it occurred. The disc is brand new. I cleaned out a bit of dust from the tray and it decreased but was still present - quarter second pauses in the middle of the track. The disc was 24-bit 88Khz music. I did not notice this issue with CDs.

I gave Michael a call and left a message. Hopefully I'll get the RMA number early tomorrow (or Friday since tomorrow is the 4th) so I can send it out asap. Do you have an approximate turnaround time?

Also, I don't believe this unit has the analog upgrade. Is that something I can have done simultaneously? I heard there may be another upgrade approaching; is there any merit to that?.

Hello Ramses,

The third character is probably a "D", as we never use "I" or "O" to prevent confusion with "1" and "0".

Do you have the owner's manual? You should spend some time reading it to become familiar with the unit. If you don't have it, you can download a copy at:
http://www.ayre.com/dx5_support.htm

If you look at page 21, it explains that the status light will glow red when the LFE Mixdown mode is enabled. LFE Mixdown mode is explained on pages 47-48. Since the level changes by 6 dB when LFE mixdown is engaged, it sounds like there is a loose connection that is causing the LFE Mixdown to engage intermittently.

Currently the turn-around time is slower than normal as we are swamped with upgrades for the DX-5 and QB-9. However, we try to bump faulty units ahead in the queue, but it could still be several weeks especially if you choose to have the upgrade done at the same time (the upgrade requires about 6 hours of labor to complete).

There is only one upgrade available for the DX-5, called the DSD uptgrade. It only affects the two channel analog outputs. So if you are not using them, there is no reason to get the upgrade, which is priced at $1250 in the US. There is a post in this thread that summarizes what is done in the upgrade, It is post # 1084 on page 37. Please read that and you can determine if the update is of interest to you.

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1177 of 1445 Old 07-06-2013, 07:54 PM
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Hello Ramses,

The third character is probably a "D", as we never use "I" or "O" to prevent confusion with "1" and "0".

Do you have the owner's manual? You should spend some time reading it to become familiar with the unit. If you don't have it, you can download a copy at:
http://www.ayre.com/dx5_support.htm

If you look at page 21, it explains that the status light will glow red when the LFE Mixdown mode is enabled. LFE Mixdown mode is explained on pages 47-48. Since the level changes by 6 dB when LFE mixdown is engaged, it sounds like there is a loose connection that is causing the LFE Mixdown to engage intermittently.

Currently the turn-around time is slower than normal as we are swamped with upgrades for the DX-5 and QB-9. However, we try to bump faulty units ahead in the queue, but it could still be several weeks especially if you choose to have the upgrade done at the same time (the upgrade requires about 6 hours of labor to complete).

There is only one upgrade available for the DX-5, called the DSD uptgrade. It only affects the two channel analog outputs. So if you are not using them, there is no reason to get the upgrade, which is priced at $1250 in the US. There is a post in this thread that summarizes what is done in the upgrade, It is post # 1084 on page 37. Please read that and you can determine if the update is of interest to you.

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.





Charles,

Sometimes my memory isn't the greatest; I have read through the owner's manual but it appears that a few things didn't remain in my long-term memory bank. The music completely cut out during that experience. I checked my connections and they all seem solid. I'll try some discs again before Monday and see how it fairs.

I suppose I can hope that I will have the unit back sooner than later. I am anticipating a call from Michael with that RMA number so i can get it to you immediately.

The DSD upgrade is something that will definitely be worthwhile. Any music I play is always via analog so I'm sure it will befit the circumstances despite the risk of further delay. I will sort out the details when I hear from Michael.

Thank you for you prompt responses, assistance, and support.
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post #1178 of 1445 Old 07-06-2013, 08:01 PM
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please allow two questions that came up recently:

1) Although I've read the manual, I do not completely understand the "mixdown mode" options in the speaker configuration settings. Does it make any difference in terms of what's the ouput of the DX-5 through HDMI audio-only when the mixdown mode, or general speaker configuration, is set to "7.1" or "5.1"? I'm using a 5.1 speaker setup. and I'm wondering why the signal input detector of my processor preamp always detects a "7.1", independent of the disc inserted (a stereo CD or SACD, or a 5.1 DVD, for example). I've had the chance to try with an (also Oppo-based) Primare player, here the processor detects the correct format of what's on the disc. So what's the best setting in my configuration for the "mixdown" (btw, I never use mixdown of multichannel sources to stereo output)?

2) Is there a way to play CDs, DVD-As, or multichannel SACDs, "gapless", without interrupting sound between tracks? Since many discs, classical, but also many rock albums have tracks that flow from one to the next without separation, it would be a valuable option to have "gapless" playback. Interestingly, when playing a DVD-Video or BD-Video, the playback is gapless!

Lieber Werner,

Question #1 actually has several separate questions. I will try to answer them in an order that makes sense.

a) If you use the HDMI A/V output of the DX-5 the sound quality will not be as good, but your processor will indicate the proper number of channels coming from the DX-5. With the Audio-Only HDMI output, there is no simple way for us to detect which channels are active. Therefore we set the HDMI signal header to indicate the MAXIMUM number of channels that are available from that format. Otherwise, the processor would cut off the active channels that were not indicated. So your processor should indicate the following:

CD = 2.0
SACD = 5.1
DVD-Video = 5.1
DVD-Audio = 5.1
Blu-Ray = 7.1

It is a quirk of the DX-5 that cannot be fixed, I am sorry for that. Also, the Audio-Only HDMI can only output PCM (and DSD). So your surround processor will always indicate PCM (or DSD), regardless of the type of compression used on the disc. The advantage of this is that even older processors that cannot decode the newer lossless formats will still play them correctly. And again, if you use the A/V HDMI output, the processor will indicate the type of compression that is used, but it will not sound as good.

However if your processor is always indicating 7.1 channels, even with a CD, there is something wrong somewhere. It could be a bug in the DX-5 firmware, or a defect in the HDMI transmitter PCB, or it could be some quirk or that particular processor. It may take some time to figure out the exact problem. How close are you to München, where the importer is located? Also if you are planning to have the DSD upgrade installed, we could send an extra HDMI transmitter PCB and connector cable so that while they are working on your machine they could confirm the problem and repair it while they perform the other work.

b) It's been too many years since we developed the DX-5 for me to recall all the exact details of what we had to do to ensure that everything worked properly. The Audio Only HDMI signals are taken from the signals that are normally sent to the 7.1 analog outputs. These are either PCM (or in the case of an SACD when the on-screen menu is set to NOT convert SACD to 88.2/24 PCM) DSD. All of the compressed (lossless or lossy) Dolby and dts formats are decoded to PCM. It's been too long for me to remember what happens when you listen to a 7.1 channel soundtrack on a 5..1 channel system. The two extra channels must either be mixed in with the active channels or else discarded. I believe that they are discarded as mixing them in would raise a lot of issues. I am sure that whatever is done by Ayre with the Audio-Only HDMI output is AT LEAST as good as what Oppo does with their audio section of the A/V HDMI output. It is not like us to degrade anything. Evidence of this is the LFE Mixdown mode. Oppo does not offer this, and when several forum participants gave us examples of discs that were authored incorrectly and required the LFE Mixdown mode to play back properly, we added this. I don't know of any other player that offers this feature.

To conclude, I would strongly recommend setting the on-screen setup menu EXACTLY as described in the manual. There will be some quirks in the display regarding the number of channels that is playing. For example all Blu-ray discs will show as 7.1 channels, even if they are not all used on a particular disc. And it may be that since your processor is either only capable of 5.1 channels (or is set to 5.1 channels) that it is causing the mis-indication of number of channels being transmitted.

Please let me know the make and model of the processor that you are using and I will investigate this issue further. (Our digital programmer can help answer some of your questions, but he is currently on vacation.) Thank you for your kind assistance and patience.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1179 of 1445 Old 07-06-2013, 11:28 PM
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Dear Charles,

thanks for your, as ever, comprehensive comments.
No big issue here, I just want to be sure that the DX-5 does not perform any unwanted downmixing. In fact, it was a friend who noticed me about the processor display "7.1 PCM" when playing a CD through HDMI audio-out, the same with 2.0- or 5.1-SACDs or DVD-As, so it`s just a bit confusing. It's set to 7.1 downmix, and I assume this is the correct setting, and I do not use HDMI A/V out (but I do use the AES ouput for my strange dts discs, since the multichannel content is more reliably detected here with bitstream out as with the PCM HDMI audio-only out).
The processor is a Bryston Sp-3, usually recognizing all available formats.

I'm fairly close to Munich, but, as I'm still waiting for the analog upgrade, it would be great to have the described behaviour checked when the player will get its update (if there's anything that needs to be checked)

Best

Werner
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post #1180 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 01:27 AM
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2) Is there a way to play CDs, DVD-As, or multichannel SACDs, "gapless", without interrupting sound between tracks? Since many discs, classical, but also many rock albums have tracks that flow from one to the next without separation, it would be a valuable option to have "gapless" playback. Interestingly, when playing a DVD-Video or BD-Video, the playback is gapless!

Lieber Werner,

I just realized that I forgot to answer the second part of your question. As far as I know, this should not be the case. We can test it with the latest Oppo firmware and Ayre firmware at the factory but only with the surround-sound receiver that we have -- a Pioneer that is a couple of years old. We purchased that one as it has it's own proprietary version of Audio Rate Control (Pioneer calls it PQLS - "Precision Quartz Lock System"). Then we can see if it is working properly with our SSP system. If not there may be some bug in our firmware. If it works with our system, there may be some incompatibility with your Bryston. In situations like this, the manufacturer will often loan us a unit to investigate the problem. I will keep you informed.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1181 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 01:30 AM
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No big issue here, I just want to be sure that the DX-5 does not perform any unwanted downmixing. In fact, it was a friend who noticed me about the processor display "7.1 PCM" when playing a CD through HDMI audio-out, the same with 2.0- or 5.1-SACDs or DVD-As, so it`s just a bit confusing. It's set to 7.1 downmix, and I assume this is the correct setting, and I do not use HDMI A/V out (but I do use the AES ouput for my strange dts discs, since the multichannel content is more reliably detected here with bitstream out as with the PCM HDMI audio-only out).
The processor is a Bryston Sp-3, usually recognizing all available formats.

I'm fairly close to Munich, but, as I'm still waiting for the analog upgrade, it would be great to have the described behaviour checked when the player will get its update (if there's anything that needs to be checked).

Lieber Werner,

We are still organizing the update program, so please accept my apologies for the delay on that.

There is an old joke that the purpose of time is to keep everything from happening all at once. smile.gif Unfortunately time hasn't been doing its job properly as everything seems to be happening all at once anyway! We have introduced the QA-9, AX-5, VX-5, and soon the KX-5 in very rapid succession. We also introduced the "DSD" updates to the QB-9 and DX-5 in the same period. And now that it is summer our technicians are taking their vacations.

There are a few bright spots -- one is that we hired an excellent new woman in the production department who is working out very well. Another is the technicians had the foresight to stagger their vacations so that they wouldn't both be gone at the same time! The last is that both of my sons are working at Ayre for the summer. This is the third summer for the older one (Cooper, age 17) and the first summer for the younger one (Carter, age 14). Our production manager wanted to know if Cooper would quit high school and work full-time for Ayre because he learns so quickly and does such excellent work! Of course I had to tell him "No!", but it does give us a couple of months to find some more people...smile.gif

But I think the first thing to do is to test our system with all of the latest Oppo and Ayre firmware updates. We will check that this week and go from there. Thank you for the report and also your kind patience.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1182 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 10:51 AM
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Hello Charles,

Get a load of this - I double-checked my connections regarding the LFE Mixdown issue. All was solid. Then, just for kicks, I disconnected the HDMI Audio Output entirely from the setup and the audio "clipping" that randomly disrupted analog playback completely stopped. I listened to an entire DVD-A album with no interruptions (which sounded absolutely fantastic by the way). Any ideas about what might be going on there? I found that quite peculiar; as if there is some internal "confusion." Do you think restoring the player to factory defaults and then going through the settings again may somehow straighten things out or should I still prepare myself for a hard goodbye?

Thanks much.
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post #1183 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramses88 View Post

Get a load of this - I double-checked my connections regarding the LFE Mixdown issue. All was solid. Then, just for kicks, I disconnected the HDMI Audio Output entirely from the setup and the audio "clipping" that randomly disrupted analog playback completely stopped. I listened to an entire DVD-A album with no interruptions (which sounded absolutely fantastic by the way). Any ideas about what might be going on there? I found that quite peculiar; as if there is some internal "confusion." Do you think restoring the player to factory defaults and then going through the settings again may somehow straighten things out or should I still prepare myself for a hard goodbye?

Hello Ramses,

Great detective work! This is definitely a new one for me, and quite bizarre.

EDIT: Please disregard the instructions below. I was looking at two different schematic diagrams when I wrote it and managed to mix myself up thoroughly. Look below for updated troubleshooting instructions in a new post.

There is a Xilinx FPGA on the HDMI Audio transmitter PCB. This routes all of the audio signals where ever they need to go, as well as generates a 720p grey screen. (The audio has to be sent in during the blanking pulses of the video signal, so you can't send audio across HDMI without also sending video. A grey screen will have much less interference with the audio signal than an active video picture would.But all of the signals on the HDMI output come directly from the Xilinx FPGA, except for one. So even if you short-circuited the output of the Xilinx FPGA, it wouldn't affect the audio that is being sent to to the analog output -- except for that one signal. It is the flag that the Oppo generates to tell the player whether it is transmitting PCM or DSD.

That signal is sent to two places. So there must be a short circuit in one of three places -- the HDMI Audio output PCB, the HDMI cable itself, or the HDMI receiver in your SSP.

The fact that it is intermittent almost certainly means it is a bad cable, as the cable is the only thing that is subject to movement. This movement will create the short circuit in the first place, and it will also make the short circuit come and go as the vibration from the spinning disc moves the cable slightly. I would be willing to bet that replacing the HDMI cable will solve that problem completely. If you don't have an extra HDMI cable handy there are two things you can try quickly. One is to recreate the problem. I am confident that you will be able to make the problem come and go by slightly wiggling the cable where it enters the molded plug at one end or the other.

Once you have recreated it, unplug the SSP. If the problem still exists, we have eliminated the SSP as the location of the short circuit. If you can make the problem come and go by wiggling one end of the cable, flip the cable end-for-end. Then the spot that causes problems when wiggled will probably move. If it stays next to the HDMI jack on the DX-5, then the problem is on that PCB. But if the problem moves to the other end of the cable, it is a bad cable.

Let us know what you find out.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1184 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 03:37 PM
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Hello Ramses,

Great detective work! This is definitely a new one for me, and quite bizarre.

There is a Xilinx FPGA on the HDMI Audio transmitter PCB. This routes all of the audio signals where ever they need to go, as well as generates a 720p grey screen. (The audio has to be sent in during the blanking pulses of the video signal, so you can't send audio across HDMI without also sending video. A grey screen will have much less interference with the audio signal than an active video picture would.But all of the signals on the HDMI output come directly from the Xilinx FPGA, except for one. So even if you short-circuited the output of the Xilinx FPGA, it wouldn't affect the audio that is being sent to to the analog output -- except for that one signal. It is the flag that the Oppo generates to tell the player whether it is transmitting PCM or DSD.

That signal is sent to two places. So there must be a short circuit in one of three places -- the HDMI Audio output PCB, the HDMI cable itself, or the HDMI receiver in your SSP.

The fact that it is intermittent almost certainly means it is a bad cable, as the cable is the only thing that is subject to movement. This movement will create the short circuit in the first place, and it will also make the short circuit come and go as the vibration from the spinning disc moves the cable slightly. I would be willing to bet that replacing the HDMI cable will solve that problem completely. If you don't have an extra HDMI cable handy there are two things you can try quickly. One is to recreate the problem. I am confident that you will be able to make the problem come and go by slightly wiggling the cable where it enters the molded plug at one end or the other.

Once you have recreated it, unplug the SSP. If the problem still exists, we have eliminated the SSP as the location of the short circuit. If you can make the problem come and go by wiggling one end of the cable, flip the cable end-for-end. Then the spot that causes problems when wiggled will probably move. If it stays next to the HDMI jack on the DX-5, then the problem is on that PCB. But if the problem moves to the other end of the cable, it is a bad cable.

Let us know what you find out.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.


Charles,

Ok, I'm not sure if this is a shortcut to your suggestion, but when I play analog music with the HDMI cable plugged into the HDMI Audio Output on the DX-5 but unplugged from the SSP, there is no musical interference. When then plugged in to the SSP, the intermittent auditory obstructions begin as before. However, I will try your instructions as well momentarily.

Also, I do have a spare HDMI cable and before I stepped out this morning, I tried connecting it from the DX-5 HDMI Audio Out directly to the display and I am still not getting that gray 720p screen. I'll try using it as the connection between the SSP and DX-5 in place of the former cable. But is that enough an indicator that there is something wrong with the DX-5?

Despite all of this, something is telling me it's the SSP. This Cary C12 has exhibited some questionable behavior in the short time I've had it and I am actually going to be replacing it soon with Classe's SSP-800. Would you also suggest waiting to see how the DX-5 fares with it or will your aforementioned steps narrow things down enough?

More to report soon.

Thank you!!!
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post #1185 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 03:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Ramses88 View Post

Ok, I'm not sure if this is a shortcut to your suggestion, but when I play analog music with the HDMI cable plugged into the HDMI Audio Output on the DX-5 but unplugged from the SSP, there is no musical interference. When then plugged in to the SSP, the intermittent auditory obstructions begin as before. However, I will try your instructions as well momentarily.

Also, I do have a spare HDMI cable and before I stepped out this morning, I tried connecting it from the DX-5 HDMI Audio Out directly to the display and I am still not getting that gray 720p screen. I'll try using it as the connection between the SSP and DX-5 in place of the former cable. But is that enough an indicator that there is something wrong with the DX-5?

Despite all of this, something is telling me it's the SSP. This Cary C12 has exhibited some questionable behavior in the short time I've had it and I am actually going to be replacing it soon with Classe's SSP-800. Would you also suggest waiting to see how the DX-5 fares with it or will your aforementioned steps narrow things down enough?!

Hello Ramses,

Sorry, I only got an hour's sleep last night and managed to confuse myself quite well when writing my previous post. Please disregard that post for now. I need to look at this again and see what is going on. I had two schematics up on the screen and once and managed to mix the two up quite nicely in my head. Let me look at again and see if I can come up with some trouble-shooting tips that will actually work!

Sorry,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1186 of 1445 Old 07-07-2013, 04:01 PM
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No problem Charles,

Get some rest and I look forward to hearing from you. Your time and effort are truly appreciated.
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post #1187 of 1445 Old 07-10-2013, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wernerleitmann View Post

Is there a way to play CDs, DVD-As, or multichannel SACDs, "gapless", without interrupting sound between tracks? Since many discs, classical, but also many rock albums have tracks that flow from one to the next without separation, it would be a valuable option to have "gapless" playback. Interestingly, when playing a DVD-Video or BD-Video, the playback is gapless!

Best

Werner

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Lieber Werner,

I just realized that I forgot to answer the second part of your question. As far as I know, this should not be the case. We can test it with the latest Oppo firmware and Ayre firmware at the factory but only with the surround-sound receiver that we have -- a Pioneer that is a couple of years old. We purchased that one as it has it's own proprietary version of Audio Rate Control (Pioneer calls it PQLS - "Precision Quartz Lock System"). Then we can see if it is working properly with our SSP system. If not there may be some bug in our firmware. If it works with our system, there may be some incompatibility with your Bryston. In situations like this, the manufacturer will often loan us a unit to investigate the problem. I will keep you informed.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.


We are running our DX-5 Version D into a Bryston SP3 and have no problem with gapless, it was also fine as a version C.
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post #1188 of 1445 Old 07-10-2013, 11:24 PM
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We are running our DX-5 Version D into a Bryston SP3 and have no problem with gapless, it was also fine as a version C.

Liebe Werner,

"Scott Sol" is Scott Soloway, the manager of Audio Consultants who is the Ayre dealer in Chicago. They have many more SSP's available for testing than we do, and luckily enough in this case, the Bryston SP3. His reference to version D and version C is to the Xilinx firmware written by Ayre in the DX-5. Firmware revision D is the most current version PRIOR to the release of the DX-5-DSD. Scott, thank you VERY MUCH for testing the DX-5 with the Bryston SSP! smile.gif

I don't have a DX-5 at home right now, but I think when the power is first applied from the AC mains, the front panel display will briefly display "FW DDD" or something similar. There are three Xilinx chips that can be updated and the front panel display will show which firmware is installed.

The other thing to check is the firmware for the main decoder PCB and transport that is supplied to us by Oppo. You can check this as shown in the owner's manual on page 88 of the owner's manual. The current version is AYDX5-59-0117. To upgrade the firmware, please visit the Ayre website:

http://www.ayre.com/dx5_firmware.htm

I am quite certain if you are experiencing gaps in the playback that one or more of your firmware versions must be out of date. Please check all four firmware versions and let us know what your find.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1189 of 1445 Old 07-12-2013, 05:44 AM
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Hi I thought you want Arye badly.Now Marantz UD9004 is the mother of expensive BD player made in Japan,will you try this one?

Nah, the UD9004 can be had refurb for a lot less, the defective Denon tray integration into the beefier chassis and subsequent mass breakdowns (basically an A1UDCI fitted in new chassis)have done this.

How is DSD decoding achieved in the Ayre player, does it have analog out, fully balanced stereo stage?

And, as usual for boutique manufacturers, one step behind the times with lack of 3D.
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post #1190 of 1445 Old 07-12-2013, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wernerleitmann View Post

Is there a way to play CDs, DVD-As, or multichannel SACDs, "gapless", without interrupting sound between tracks? Since many discs, classical, but also many rock albums have tracks that flow from one to the next without separation, it would be a valuable option to have "gapless" playback. Interestingly, when playing a DVD-Video or BD-Video, the playback is gapless!

Lieber Werner,

this is a follow-up to my previous post.

To check the Xilinx firmware installed by Ayre, please use the following procedure:

a) Place the player in "Standby".

b) Using the remote control, press "Setup - 5 - 5 - 5 - 5"

c) The display should indicate "FW Ref EDD" for the most recent NON-DSD DX-5 firmware.

(The current firmware for a DX-5-DSD will read "FW Rev GFD")

The other information in my previous post is correct. Can you please verify that your firmware is up-to-date?

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, inc.
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post #1191 of 1445 Old 07-12-2013, 11:33 PM
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Dear Charles,

both firmware status "EDD" and "59-0117" are correct in my unit.
Is there a special setting or option with DVD-As, to allow playback w/o gaps between tracks?

Best
Werner
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post #1192 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 12:31 AM
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Dear Charles,

Since I got no response to my emails last 10 days I think they go to your email spam folder. Can you please check it.
My DX-5-DSD can only function as USB DAC now. It cannot read any media.

Thanks,
Alex

PS. Current FW is "FW Rev GED". Is it OK or need to be updated?
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post #1193 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 02:19 AM
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Dear Charles,

Since I got no response to my emails last 10 days I think they go to your email spam folder. Can you please check it.
My DX-5-DSD can only function as USB DAC now. It cannot read any media.

Thanks,
Alex

PS. Current FW is "FW Rev GED". Is it OK or need to be updated?

Dear Alex,

Please accept my apologies. I have received both of your recent e-mails but have had no time to answer them yet. Last week our programming engineer was on vacation and this week our senior repair technician is on vacation. Then to top it off I had two full days of meetings (including dinners) with a major Japanese manufacturer of AV equipment. I will try to answer your e-mails this weekend, but if I need to perform any testing it will have to wait until next week. I am paralyzed and cannot perform any work without the assistance of one of our technicians.

Sincerely,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

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Originally Posted by bobpaule View Post

Nah, the UD9004 can be had refurb for a lot less, the defective Denon tray integration into the beefier chassis and subsequent mass breakdowns (basically an A1UDCI fitted in new chassis)have done this.

How is DSD decoding achieved in the Ayre player, does it have analog out, fully balanced stereo stage?

And, as usual for boutique manufacturers, one step behind the times with lack of 3D.

Hello Bob,

Actually we were ahead of the time. We knew that 3D would flop as there were so many problems with it. In my meeting with one of the top Japanese manufacturers of A/V equipment they said that 3D had failed miserably. However, they had high hopes for 4K. They said that the images were so bright and detailed that they actually looked more dimensional than "3D". Plus there is no need to wear the silly glasses. I have not seen 4K myself, but the effect is apparently like the "Retina" screens on the Apple devices, or the smart phones that have 1920 x 1080 on a 4" screen, where the information density is simply staggering.. The biggest stumbling block with that will be the price. I heard of one display that was $12,000 (I think), but my brother said that he saw a review of a 4K display that looked glorious. But it was $55,000. Clearly the prices will have to come down a long, LONG way before we see any mass-market acceptance. And without mass-market acceptance, there will be no titles, as there is nobody to sell the discs to.... Don't forget that the market penetration for Blu-ray DISCS (not players) is still quite low, as the average person has such a poor display that even Blu-ray looks terrible.

It was also interesting because the Japanese manufacturer said that the Chinese companies are building their own screens now. And instead of OEM or ODM sales of these screens, they are creating new brands to sells the screens themselves. But he said they have a long way to go. He saw one Chinese 4K display that actually looked very good when fed 4K source material, but when fed anything else it looked terrible. As usual, everything becomes a race to the bottom.The normal consumer looks at two numbers -- the inches and the price: "I got a 50" flatscreen at Costco for $500!" They know NOTHING about picture quality, or reliability or availability of spare parts. I still have a final generation 50" Kuro monitor in a sealed box waiting for the right time to open it up and enjoy it. I don't know if that picture quality will ever be surpassed. The people that are hard-core vacuum tube fans will pay many, many hundreds of dollars for sealed New Old Stock tubes from the 1930s. We purchased 500,000 of all of Toshiba's low noise JFET's for audio use when they were announced as end of life. That should be a 50 to 100 year supply. Nobody will ever build transistors that good ever again. Instead they simply want to make everything as small as possible so that you can have 40 Mpixel cameras in your smart phones....

And yes, all of the audio can be sent through the two-channel analog outputs with fully-balanced, zero-feedback circuitry.

Best regards
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1194 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 12:34 PM
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You can get a good quality 55" Sony 4K set for $5000 and a 65" for $7000. You can get a third tier 55" 4k set for $1,500. Aside from being 4K ,this set's performance is at the level of the worst TVs on the market. Samsung and LG just announced models in the same range as Sony.

The ultra expensive sets that have been around were 84" models
.
The 4K sets are all LCDs. Rather than work on 4K plasmas, manufacturers are putting that R&D budget into OLED. Projectors that can accept 4K signals currently start in the 25K range.

Sony has just started shipping a $699 4K server loaded with 10 movies and expects to have their 4K download site operational in September.

It is expected that we will see the adoption of a more efficient codecs such as H.265 (replacing H.264) that will help sources such as Netflix be able to stream 4K without excessive demands on bandwith. The Sony system is for downloading, not streaming.

What is not clear at this point is if we'll be seeing content with 10 or 12 bit color depth instead of the current 8 bit system.
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post #1195 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 12:40 PM
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My successful gapless test of the DX-5 may not be valid. When I last did an internet update it turns out I got BDP83-59-0117 instead of AYDX5-59-0117. I am working with Michael at Ayre to get this resolved.
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post #1196 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

You can get a good quality 55" Sony 4K set for $5000 and a 65" for $7000. You can get a third tier 55" 4k set for $1,500. Aside from being 4K ,this set's performance is at the level of the worst TVs on the market. Samsung and LG just announced models in the same range as Sony.

If the prices are already this low, then 4K has a strong chance of succeeding. Then it is a political situation of the studios -- do they REALLY want to release the original masters of their movies???
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post #1197 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by scottsol View Post

My successful gapless test of the DX-5 may not be valid. When I last did an internet update it turns out I got BDP83-59-0117 instead of AYDX5-59-0117. I am working with Michael at Ayre to get this resolved.

The ONLY difference between the "BDP83*" and the "AYDX5*" firmwares is the splash screen. If you have an Oppo splash screen, you have the wrong firmware. There is a secret way to change back to the Ayre firmware and get the Ayre splash screen (and screen saver) but you will have to contact me via private e-mail. I will forget to do this, so if you don't have my e-mail, just ask Bruce as he has it.

Thanks,
Charlie
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post #1198 of 1445 Old 07-13-2013, 08:21 PM
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Would it be futile to use the DX5 HDMI outputs with the Meridian HD621 and 861 sound processor? Why would a good HDMI cable, such as Kimber, be so inferior to analog or digital SPDIF? I'm new to the thread, so pardon if this has been addressed before.
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post #1199 of 1445 Old 07-14-2013, 10:03 AM
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Dear Charles,

regarding gapless playback, I did some further checks: Gaps between tracks do not occur in all CDs or DVD-As (on discs that contain tracks where gapless playback would be desired), only some are affected.
Most often, DVD-As are affected (an example: Nightwish - dark passion play, but also in some others). So I really don't know if the player is to blame, or the mastering of the disc.
But I could try the Nightwish disc, in MCh DVD-A mode, on a Pioneer DVD-989, here it played gapless.

I just want to limit the investigations here, just to ask if a future software update may allow gapless play in ALL discs?

Best

Werner
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post #1200 of 1445 Old 07-14-2013, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by capnvid View Post

Would it be futile to use the DX5 HDMI outputs with the Meridian HD621 and 861 sound processor? Why would a good HDMI cable, such as Kimber, be so inferior to analog or digital SPDIF? I'm new to the thread, so pardon if this has been addressed before.

Hello Captain,

S/PDIF is not a very good method of transmitting a digital audio signal. Typically a digital audio signal comprises three separate parts:

a) The data itself
b) A bit clock to indicate the timing of the data
c) A word clock to indicate that the sample for one channel is complete, and now it is going to send the sample for the other channel

With S/PDIF all three of these signals are joined together as one signal, using a process called biphase-mark encoding. At the receiver they are separated out to form three signals again, but due to interference between them, some amount of jitter is always added to the signal. So S/PDIF (and its derivatives, AES/EBU and TosLink) are not the best ways to transmit audio data.

In fact the only method that is even worse for audio is HDMI. The advantage of HDMI is that one cable (with 19 conductors!) can carry up to 7.1 channels of 192/24 PCM. But it has even more jitter than does S/PDIF. No audio clock is even transmitted -- just the video clock. Then the audio clock has to be derived from the video clock. Typically an HDMI connection will exhibit about 10x as much jitter as an average S/PDIF connection. However, as of HDMI 1.3a, the HDMI spec added a feature called Audio Rate Control (ARC) but it never caught on and when most people say "ARC" they mean a newer feature that is more popular, called "Audio Return Channel"...

The only implementations I have seen of ARC are proprietary ones in Pioneer (called PQLS for Precision Quartz Lock System) and Sony (called HATS for High-quality Audio Transmission System). You need to have the feature in both the player and the SSP. We put the generic version of ARC in the DX-5, but have yet to see a company build a compatible receiver. If anyone ever does, it will give the best sound by far of any HDMI system.

The Meridian system is quite limited as everything is converted to 96/24. Lower sample rates are upsampled while higher sample rates are downsampled. DSD is converted to PCM. It requires 3 cables for 5.1 and 4 cables for 7.1. So even though the jitter may be lower than HDMI, I'm not sure that it is a better solution.

Best,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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