Ayre DX-5 bluray player - Page 49 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1441 of 1463 Old 07-07-2014, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post
Thanks for the answer. Do you work for Ayre or have inside information?? Or is this just a guess??


I was kind of hoping that Ayre was going to use the Oppo 105 as a platform for a new universal player.


Tom
I've been an Ayre dealer since 1994 when their only product was the V-3 power amp.

Things can always change, but as of now things don't seem to be headed that way.
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post #1442 of 1463 Old 07-07-2014, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Quote:

We know that many people like surround sound, which is why we paid so much attention to its implementation. It is by far the best HDMI audio output around. First of all, there are separate grounds for the audio side of the player and video side. This makes a really big difference in both audio and picture quality. It is very important to keep them separated. So the first thing to do is to run all of the video cables directly to your display and all of the audio cables to the SSP. Never run your video signals to the SSP. This will degrade the PQ due to the extra circuitry in the SSP, plus it will re-connect the video and audio grounds.

Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
Hello Charles,

You have written several times how important it is to separate the audio and video signals, sending video only to the display and audio only to the SSP.

Is there an advantage to sending a video only signal to the projector if you do not have a DX-5 with its separate grounds?

As you know better than anyone HDMI must always carry a video signal. I understand it can be a "blank" video signal and it can be 720p or 1080p. Is there an advantage using the "blank" video when sending audio to the SSP?

I have read in another thread that just plugging in an HDMI cable to an SSP activates its video circuits, which can create noise and affect the DACs unless the SSP is very well designed. The extreme approach would be to have external DACs.

BTW I have a Datasat RS20i. I hope the proposed project with them goes through.

Thanks for your help.
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post #1443 of 1463 Old 09-09-2014, 09:22 PM
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Monsters University and the Captain America 2 disc has audio errors on the discs and they are both Disney. The problems only occur on my Ayre player.

The Monsters University disc randomly has the audio go out. I turn the player off and back on and it fixes the problem.

The Captain American 2 disc has sharp treble sounds that make the speakers sound like they are clipping or blown. It is only brief surges randomly throughout the movie. I am scared to turn it up so my speakers don't get fried.

Is there a way we can look at fixing these or should I just swallow it? It has to be a firmware issue that Oppo doesn't want to fix, or at least that is what I assume. Both are DTS HD-MA 7.1 soundtracks if that matters. Is there a setting I should try in the audio processing?

I love CA2 but can live without the other but I think for the most part the problem will only increase across future titles. For the record, I have purchased 2-3 copies of the above movies, even from different stores that might have different batch runs and the problem is consistent. The Monsters University I even bought months apart from different vendors and it still randomly occurs. I have over 500 titles and those are the only 2 that I have a problem with so far and both of those came out this year.
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post #1444 of 1463 Old 10-05-2014, 07:26 AM
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Just watched Godzilla and it seems to have the same "sharp treble sounds", like loud clicks. I'll try Captain America tonight. Anyone else having this issue? I also noticed that my SSP listed the audio as Dolby Digital 7.1 (mc) although both the disc and the box said DTS (Godzilla).
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post #1445 of 1463 Old 10-07-2014, 10:35 PM
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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only]

^ 1/2 or so the way down the page is where the talk of the distortion with 7.1 issue starts.
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post #1446 of 1463 Old 01-30-2015, 12:15 AM
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Further upgrades....?

Hi Charles,

the DX-5DSD is still alive and well...

So here

https://www.ayre.com/pdf/HFN_Ayre_QB-9.pdf

I read upon further upgrades to the QB-9DSD regarding PCM384 and DSD128 capability to be available in the future.

Also for the DX-5DSD?

Best from Germany

Ingo
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post #1447 of 1463 Old 01-31-2015, 05:00 AM
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DSD upgrade

Hello,
I've been thoroughly enjoying my DX-5 over the past year, but am curious as to where I stand in line for the DSD upgrade? I bought mine in early February 2014 from a dealer. I was supposed to have been put on the list for the upgrade then. Is there any timeline for the remainder of the upgrades? Thanks for any information.

Putty
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post #1448 of 1463 Old 02-02-2015, 08:04 AM
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DX-5DSD update to DSD128

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Originally Posted by IngoT View Post
Hi Charles,

the DX-5DSD is still alive and well...

So here

https://www.ayre.com/pdf/HFN_Ayre_QB-9.pdf

I read upon further upgrades to the QB-9DSD regarding PCM384 and DSD128 capability to be available in the future.

Also for the DX-5DSD?

Best from Germany

Ingo
Hey, I would like an answer to that question too!
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post #1449 of 1463 Old 02-27-2015, 08:42 AM
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Playing .DFF files through DX-5DSD

I have a question to all those using DX-5DSD purely as a DAC with a PC. When you play .DFF file (i.e. DSD file) what do you, guys, see on the unit's front display? I see 88 kHz I expected to see DSD 2.8 mHz but it ain't there. Anyone knows why?
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post #1450 of 1463 Old 03-10-2015, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by The Ukrainian View Post
I have a question to all those using DX-5DSD purely as a DAC with a PC. When you play .DFF file (i.e. DSD file) what do you, guys, see on the unit's front display? I see 88 kHz I expected to see DSD 2.8 mHz but it ain't there. Anyone knows why?
Check your SW player settings. It has DSD-to-PCM conversion set somewhere. I use foobar2000 in DoP mode (DSD over PCM). Also you can find more info on Ayre's website.



Thanks to a KX-R20 I have recently acquired finally all Ayre components connected through AyreLink. Works like a charm except two bugs.

When the DX-5DSD stops playing a CD it parks the laser pickup in a minute or so. This also triggers turning off all the components connected through AyreLink except DX-5DSD itself. And no, pressing play does not turn them back on.This is the most annoying thing.

The other bug is that DX-5DSD does not turn on the other components when it starts working as a USB DAC.

Does anyone else experience it with an AyreLink implementation on a DX-5DSD?
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post #1451 of 1463 Old 03-10-2015, 06:46 AM
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DSD playpack on DX-5DSD

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Originally Posted by neprince View Post
Check your SW player settings. It has DSD-to-PCM conversion set somewhere. I use foobar2000 in DoP mode (DSD over PCM). Also you can find more info on Ayre's website.
Thank you for that, neprince! When you use your DX-5DSD as an USB DAC, what do you see on your unit's display when you play .DFF file?
Hey, I also use foobar2000, but I'm a newbie to PC playback and have no idea where to look for DoP mode. Could you, please, guide me through the process?
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post #1452 of 1463 Old 03-10-2015, 08:28 AM
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It displays 'USB DoP 64'.

I would recommend to start with this very useful link to get your PC and DX-5 DSD-ready
http://www.ayre.com/usb-dac.htm.

Then I have installed the foo_input_sacd plugin. Suppose you did it too since you can play DFF files. Now run foobar2000 and check File - Preferences - Tools - SACD - ASIO Driver mode. It should be DSD.
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post #1453 of 1463 Old 03-10-2015, 01:34 PM
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Best music media-player for DX-5DSD

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Originally Posted by neprince View Post
It displays 'USB DoP 64'.
I would recommend to start with this very useful link to get your PC and DX-5 DSD-ready
http://www.ayre.com/usb-dac.htm.
Then I have installed the foo_input_sacd plugin. Suppose you did it too since you can play DFF files. Now run foobar2000 and check File - Preferences - Tools - SACD - ASIO Driver mode. It should be DSD.
Thanks for your help, neprince! I wonder if you tried other music media-players with your DX-5DSD before you settled for Foobar? There are so many players around it would be nice to be sure that Foobar is indeed the best choice for DX-5DSD.
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post #1454 of 1463 Old 04-10-2015, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by proceedputty View Post
Just watched Godzilla and it seems to have the same "sharp treble sounds", like loud clicks. I'll try Captain America tonight. Anyone else having this issue? I also noticed that my SSP listed the audio as Dolby Digital 7.1 (mc) although both the disc and the box said DTS (Godzilla).

Yes, I also had the exact same issue with Godzilla and Captain America 2. The audio distortion sounds like sharp clipping, even at low volumes. I ran all kinds of logistics to make sure it wasn't my SSP or any other component or connection. Definitely the DX-5. I got in touch with Ayre and after a few tests on my end, it was determined that I needed to send in the unit along with the discs. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get it done before leaving town so it will have to wait. My only guess is that something is loose somewhere..
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post #1455 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 03:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post
Hi Charles,


I think somewhere you explained this, but I do not know where. Anyway, the issue is HDMI jitter for LPCM versus bitstream.

The below is from here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1439524/of...s-thread/10740



"kellybob,
With a properly engineered AVR you will hear no audio difference between 720p output and 1080i, 1080p or even 4K (if the AVR can accept that).

Try this: Set HDMI Audio Bitstream and play a track with Bitstream content. Do you hear an improvement when you select 720p output? If so, then your AVR is definitely at fault as there is no such thing as "jitter" when sending a Bitstream over HDMI (because the Bitstream data gets decoded in the AVR and jitter can only happen AFTER that point and before the data reaches the AVR's DACs)...."
Apologies to all for the long absence. The AVS Forum apparently changed their software and when they did they disabled my notifications. I had no idea that I was not receiving any private messages, nor that any posts were made to this thread.

As far as sending PCM versus Bitstream, we deliberately chose to send PCM for a very simple reason - no matter what the capabilities of your AVR, it would be able to handle PCM. The player can decode all of the existing formats. That was a very easy decision.

As far as the jitter goes, I disagree with the claims made in the post you quoted.

The sad truth is that all of the new AVRs use asynchronous sample rate converters (ASRC) for all inputs. They measure wonderfully, and they sound absolutely wretched. We have tried this experiment at Ayre and I was shocked at the audible degradation introduced by an ASRC. In a way it is not surprising, as an ASRC literally throws away ALL of the original data and reconstructs what it thinks the data would have been if there had been no jitter. This "thinking" is called an "algorithm" to make it sound scientific, but it is actually just a guess.

If we take ASRC out of the equation, the master audio clock has to come from somewhere. If we want the audio to be synchronized with the video, the clock HAS to come from the transport. The problem with HDMI is there is NO audio master clock transmitted! HDMI only sends a video master clock, along with some information about how to derive an audio master clock from the (generally unrelated) video clock. The result is a massive amount of jitter, and a degradation of sound quality compared to even S/PDIF (which is already a poor method of sending the clock, as it is mixed in with the word clock, bit clock, and audio data).

But believe it or not, even the jitter from HDMI will sound better than the mangled audio that results from ASRC...

The bottom line is that the poster you quoted does not know what he is talking about.

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1456 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 03:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tngiloy View Post


I was kind of hoping that Ayre was going to use the Oppo 105 as a platform for a new universal player.


Tom
Hi Tom,

Sorry for the horribly late reply. AVS Forum turned off my e-mail notification when they changed their software...

If we were to make a new transport, it would likely use the Oppo 105 (please note that the newer Darbee edition reverted back to the superior scaler offered by DVDO, as we used in the DX-5!). However it makes little sense to introduce a new player at this point. It is only a matter of time before native 4K players are available. The DX-5 would have sold far more units than it did but for the fact that 3D was introduced a month after we began shipping... At Ayre we knew 3D was just a marketing gimmick that would flop, but people are reluctant to spend a lot of money if they are unsure what the future will hold. In the case of 4K, I think that there are valid improvements to be had.

We will continue to monitor the situation. When it becomes stable we will likely re-introduce another video player, but this time separate the audio DAC so that the video playback capabilities will be more cost effective - in other words a transport with only digital outputs for both audio and video, to be used in conjunction with an external audio DAC. Then when the crazies driving the ship in Hollywood decide that we need 8K, you can keep your nice audio DAC and just upgrade the video transport.

Hope this helps,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1457 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GGA View Post
Hello Charles,

You have written several times how important it is to separate the audio and video signals, sending video only to the display and audio only to the SSP.

Is there an advantage to sending a video only signal to the projector if you do not have a DX-5 with its separate grounds?

As you know better than anyone HDMI must always carry a video signal. I understand it can be a "blank" video signal and it can be 720p or 1080p. Is there an advantage using the "blank" video when sending audio to the SSP?

I have read in another thread that just plugging in an HDMI cable to an SSP activates its video circuits, which can create noise and affect the DACs unless the SSP is very well designed. The extreme approach would be to have external DACs.

BTW I have a Datasat RS20i. I hope the proposed project with them goes through.

Thanks for your help.
Hello,

Again, sorry for the horribly late reply. I thought that the traffic on this thread had died out because the DX-5 was discontinued. I didn't realize it was due to the mistakes of the AVS Forum.

The important thing is to isolate the grounds. To be perfectly frank, if you don't have a DX-5, I would use the Toslink output from the player and send the digital audio over that. It won't support multi-channel PCM, but that is by far the lesser of two evils. I am not a fan of surround sound. It is just a big gimmick to sell equipment.

There is much to be said for having loudspeakers behind you - this is easily demonstrated in your car. Just get in your car and listen to some music. Turn the fader so just the front speakers are playing - doesn't sound that great. Then play just the rear speakers - also doesn't sound that great. But when both fronts and rears are playing together (in stereo NOT multi-channel!) the sound is much, much better!

The easiest way to get this effect in your home is to use the old "DynaQuad" method developed by David Hafler in the early '70s. Simply wire your rear speakers in series and then run them from the hot of the left channel to the hot of the right channel. Now the rear speakers will play the difference signal, which contains all of the ambience. Unless your primary video library is action/adventure with bullets and rockets whizzing past, you will never notice anything missing. Instead you will hear far better sound quality by getting rid of all of those horrible DSP chips and extra amplifiers. YMMV.

Now just set your player to send stereo downmixes over the Toslink and you will only need a stereo preamp and power amp. You can still connect four speakers for the surround-sound effect and have much better sound and much better picture. The galvanic isolation will improve both, and eliminating all of the DSP and cheap volume controls of an AVR will boost the sound quality dramatically.

Hope this helps,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1458 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 03:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
If we were to make a new transport, it would likely use the Oppo 105 (please note that the newer Darbee edition reverted back to the superior scaler offered by DVDO, as we used in the DX-5!).
I'm glad you say this, because as a videophile I was very disappointed by both iterations of the Marvel QDEO. Not just in scaling but for its other functions too. Its detail enhancement was atrocious compared to older Anchor bay solutions found in earlier Blu-ray players.

But we had the industry and reviewers all telling us how superior it was.
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post #1459 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramses88 View Post
Yes, I also had the exact same issue with Godzilla and Captain America 2. The audio distortion sounds like sharp clipping, even at low volumes. I ran all kinds of logistics to make sure it wasn't my SSP or any other component or connection. Definitely the DX-5. I got in touch with Ayre and after a few tests on my end, it was determined that I needed to send in the unit along with the discs. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get it done before leaving town so it will have to wait. My only guess is that something is loose somewhere..
Hello -

Gosh, I feel like Rip Van Winkle awakening after his 20 year nap...

Did you get this issue resolved? Please let us know.

I went to the Oppo website and it looks like they released a new firmware version last November with the following improvements:
~~~~~~~~~~
Release Notes:

This version works for both the standard BDP-83 and the BDP-83 Special Edition. Comparing to the previous Official release version BDP83-59-0117, this version focuses on improving the physical disc compatibility:
  1. Resolved a disc loading failure issue with the "X-Men: Days of Future Past (BD)" released by 20th Century Fox. Customers reported that after inserting the Blu-ray disc, the player would report a "Wrong Disc" error and eject the disc. This is caused by the new "BD+" protocol (or Digital Rights Protection system) applied to this title which requires longer decryption time than the value allowed by the player. This firmware adjusted the decryption time and resolved this issue.
All features and improvements of the previous firmware are also included in this version.
~~~~~~~~~~
I've no idea if this is related to the problems you were experiencing, but I've already set the wheels in motion to get this new version for the DX-5. Thanks for your patience!

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1460 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 04:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post
I'm glad you say this, because as a videophile I was very disappointed by both iterations of the Marvel QDEO. Not just in scaling but for its other functions too. Its detail enhancement was atrocious compared to older Anchor bay solutions found in earlier Blu-ray players.

But we had the industry and reviewers all telling us how superior it was.
Hello Agisthos,

Yes, I begged Oppo not to switch but it was too late. QDEO was based on the old technology from Genesis (old timers will remember the infamous "macroblocking" problem). Their claim to fame was that they had a zillion special filters that would make crappy streamed video (highly compressed) look good with their "secret sauce". In contrast, DVDO focused solely on getting the best quality possible from a good source.

The analogy would be like an audio company trying to make some special algorithm to get an MP3 to sound like a PCM file. Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. Once the data are discarded, they are gone forever. Trying to make up some new data to fill in the missing parts is going to look like plastic surgery - you can't improve on nature...

If we were to build something this very moment we would use the Darbee edition just to get the DVDO scaler chip. But I would be sorely tempted to disable the Darbee processing. By definition I don't think you can get more "real" than real. Even the Darbee fans use it at very low "enhancement" settings. I'm sure that it can make an average player look "better", if by "better" you mean "more spectacular". I would be extremely surprised if a Darbee had a positive effect on a DX-5.

Just out of curiosity, have any DX-5 owners tried the external Darbee box? I'd love to hear some feedback on this.

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.

Last edited by Charles Hansen; 09-27-2015 at 04:11 AM.
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post #1461 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 04:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Hello Agisthos,

Yes, I begged Oppo not to switch but it was too late. QDEO was based on the old technology from Genesis (old timers will remember the infamous "macroblocking" problem). Their claim to fame was that they had a zillion special filters that would make crappy streamed video (highly compressed) look good with their "secret sauce". In contrast, DVDO focused solely on getting the best quality possible from a good source.

The analogy would be like an audio company trying to make some special algorithm to get an MP3 to sound like a PCM file. Sorry, it ain't gonna happen. Once the data are discarded, they are gone forever. Trying to make up some new data to fill in the missing parts is going to look like plastic surgery - you can't improve on nature...

If we were to build something this very moment we would use the Darbee edition just to get the DVDO scaler chip. But I would be sorely tempted to disable the Darbee processing. By definition I don't think you can get more "real" than real. Even the Darbee fans use it at very low "enhancement" settings. I'm sure that it can make an average player look "better", if by "better" you mean "more spectacular". I would be extremely surprised if a Darbee had a positive effect on a DX-5.
Charles I have an Oppo based player, and have removed the audio boards and use it as a digital only transport, running into a separate DAC, just as you suggested a few posts ago. I have found the best picture output to come from HDMI 2, this output does not run through the extra Marvell post processing chip like HDMI 1 does. It looks more natural and real, the less processing the better.

The best improvement with video however, was replacing the SMPS with a good linear supply, and doing a main clock upgrade. But the AVS powers that be have declared such things can make no difference, because video output is always perfect.
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post #1462 of 1463 Old 09-27-2015, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agisthos View Post
Charles I have an Oppo based player, and have removed the audio boards and use it as a digital only transport, running into a separate DAC, just as you suggested a few posts ago. I have found the best picture output to come from HDMI 2, this output does not run through the extra Marvell post processing chip like HDMI 1 does. It looks more natural and real, the less processing the better.

The best improvement with video however, was replacing the SMPS with a good linear supply, and doing a main clock upgrade. But the AVS powers that be have declared such things can make no difference, because video output is always perfect.
Hi Agisthos,

Ah, a DIY DX-5! For those with the skills, it is a good way to go. We also replaced the master clock with a VCXO that could accommodate Audio Rate Control, but no SSP manufacturer has supported it except Pioneer, but their SSP (actually an AVR) was hardly state of the art! We not only replaced the switching supply, but on the BDP-83 they used a 5 volt switcher to supply on-board DC-DC converters, which are just small self-contained switching supplies. All of those were replaced, along with several other parts containing internal oscillators ("charge-pumps"). We went all-out to reduce the noise levels. This helps a lot, but isolating the video and audio systems helps even more. The easiest way to do this is just with Toslink to an external DAC.

There is a lot more, and most of it is described in a very early post in this thread.

The "bits are bits" people are too preoccupied with their own "smartness" to pay any attention to their own senses. This is changing, as biology is in the middle of a revolution. It turns out that our senses actually operate via quantum physics, and there are lots of things that our current understanding cannot come close to explaining.

"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer
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post #1463 of 1463 Old 02-17-2016, 09:55 PM
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Hello All,

I received an interesting question via PM, and am taking the liberty of putting it up here for everyone's benefit:

Quote:
Charles,

I am sorry to bother you with this question, but you seem to be the only objective and knowledgeable source of information around.

1) - Do you prefer playing from a disc through the DX-5dsd or through the USB?

2) - Are there advantages or disadvantages between a DVD-Audio and Blu-Ray audio in Sound quality?

Thanks,

David
Hi David,

Always glad to pontificate... :-)

1) We recently did that very experiment. In general I preferred the optical disc in most aspects, although there were some advantages to using USB input. Then we tried the Melco server (only $2000 for 4 TB), and it was crazy good. Perhaps the best digital sound I've heard, and far better than even the most "tricked out" laptop running from batteries. There are still some things about USB that are not well understood. The Melco is a real breakthrough piece. Not only in sound quality but also in terms of flexibility.

I've got mine on my hard-wired home network. I can control it from any device on the network using any Control Point UPnP software. The UPnP Server software is built in the Melco and the USB output is connected to a DX-5 DSD as the Renderer. By installing server software (eg, Foobar or JRiver

http://www.melco-audio.com/

2) DVD-Audio is almost always the original file. Blu-ray is almost always recorded at 48/24 and then "upsampled" to 96/24. So I would give the nod in ultimate performance to DVD-Audio.

That said, the only thing that really matters is the content that is available. I don't think there are any new DVD-A discs being made. And it is always possible for someone to make a super-fidelity Blu-ray. But the standard practice for film scores (movie soundtracks) is to record at 48/24.

But hey, I used some tools to download these low-bit rate MP3 soundtrack and love it just because the content is so good:


Cheers,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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