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post #1531 of 1555 Old 11-12-2016, 08:32 PM
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No DLNA for me. Don't want to run an extra line from another room.

I tried putting wav to mkv/mka container. Doesn't work. The files don't show up in DX5.
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post #1532 of 1555 Old 11-13-2016, 12:49 PM
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No DLNA for me. Don't want to run an extra line from another room.

I tried putting wav to mkv/mka container. Doesn't work. The files don't show up in DX5.
Hi Tommy,

Just keep doing what you are doing. MP3 can sound surprisingly good with simple source material. It tends to "fall apart" with complex things like a full symphony orchestra. Here are a couple of great sounding YouTube videos of a Dutch group. The audio can be ripped to MP3s with commonly available tools. I would post them here, but the file size limit precludes that possibility.


One is mono at 126 kb/s and the other is stereo at 143 kb/s, but sound just fine to me. (I would love to hear them at the original 48/24 resolution!)

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
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post #1533 of 1555 Old 11-14-2016, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post

The bad news is that there is no love lost between Panasonic and Sony. They were both trying to be #1 , and by definition there can only be one of those. Panasonic never made anything that would support Sony's DSD format. Pioneer was the "peacekeeper" and was the only major company that belonged to both the DVD-Audio Forum and the SACD Forum (junior partners, after Sony and Philips). If you send DSD audio to your Panasonic TV set, it will always convert to PCM inside the TV. You know that your TV was already getting DSD, as otherwise it wouldn't say so. It will always say "SACD PCM" when receiving DSD. This actually proves it is receiving a DSD signal and the TV is converting it to PCM. It is just Panasonic's way of making a "dig" at Sony - dismissing SACD as irrelevant.


Cheers,
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Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
Hi Charlie,

I believe your interpretation of the TV display is wrong. It is highly unlikely that the Panasonic is capable of receiving DSD ( or even DTS) signals. This information would be contained in the EDID and would preclude the DX5 from outputting anything over HDMI other than PCM or Dolby Digital. The display must be showing the source information it is receiving from the DX5.

In conclusion, one of us wrong. Being, perhaps, an even more arrogant sonofabitch than you, I have concluded that it ain't me.

BTW While Panasonic did purchase the Pioneer patents for plasma displays, they never used them.
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post #1534 of 1555 Old 11-14-2016, 08:01 AM
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J'Accuse...!

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Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Hi Tommy,

Just keep doing what you are doing. MP3 can sound surprisingly good with simple source material. It tends to "fall apart" with complex things like a full symphony orchestra. Here are a couple of great sounding YouTube videos of a Dutch group. The audio can be ripped to MP3s with commonly available tools. I would post them here, but the file size limit precludes that possibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zktm4vYtceg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpy11feAS88

One is mono at 126 kb/s and the other is stereo at 143 kb/s, but sound just fine to me. (I would love to hear them at the original 48/24 resolution!)

Best regards,
Charles Hansen
Ayre Acoustics, Inc.
Mr. Hansen,

I find the above post to be quite disturbing. I have been selling Ayre gear for over twenty years, confident that I was offering my customers products from a top rank audiophile manufacturer. Let me tell you, I have known many audiophiles and you are not one of them.

Indeed, your post proves that rather than an audiophile you are that scourge of our industry, a music lover. Even listening through my iPad speakers I can hear the effects of the high degree of compression of the Kovacs tracks. Accordingly I will not permit myself to enjoy these recordings regardless of the quality of the music, the performances or the production.

Oh but not you sir. You have let all these factors outweigh the sound quality. I would bet you spend a lot of time listening to and enjoying all kinds of music regardless of how far from perfection the recordings may be. Fie on thee. True audiophiles only listen to recordings with the best sound and on albums only the best sounding tracks. In fact, the best of us will only listen to the best sounding sections of a given track.

I am going to contact the FTC and see if I can get them to require you to put the following label on your offerings.

WARNING

THE CONTENTS OF THIS BOX WERE DESIGNED BY MUSIC LOVERS
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post #1535 of 1555 Old 11-14-2016, 05:09 PM
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I listened to some of the mp3s (CBR @ 320kbs) I encoded from high res files. I tried to like they, but just couldn't. I think I got spoiled by high quality source files. Or maybe my equipments are to revealing. Mp3s sounded ok, but just not involving at all. I kept forwarding to the next track. For background music they are fine though.
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post #1536 of 1555 Old 11-15-2016, 04:55 AM
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Oh but not you sir. You have let all these factors outweigh the sound quality. I would bet you spend a lot of time listening to and enjoying all kinds of music regardless of how far from perfection the recordings may be. Fie on thee. True audiophiles only listen to recordings with the best sound and on albums only the best sounding tracks.
Who needs Brubeck when you have "Jazz at the Pawnshop?"
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post #1537 of 1555 Old 11-23-2016, 04:59 PM
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I placed an order for a QX-5 today. I haven't heard it, but have every confidence it will be be a significant step up. To help fund the purchase I'm going to sell my beloved DX-5.

Charlie, you mentioned that the QX-5 optical input would not handle Dolby Digital or DTS. Do you happen to know if Apple TV or the Oppo 103 allow for PCM output and will be compatible?

Also, you recommended the Darby Edition vs. the regular Oppo BDP-103. I won't be changing my JVC RS35 DILA project anytime soon, so 3D and 4K are irrelevant. Do you still suggest the Darby edition in my case?

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post #1538 of 1555 Old 11-23-2016, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim Wiens View Post
I placed an order for a QX-5 today. I haven't heard it, but have every confidence it will be be a significant step up. To help fund the purchase I'm going to sell my beloved DX-5.

Charlie, you mentioned that the QX-5 optical input would not handle Dolby Digital or DTS. Do you happen to know if Apple TV or the Oppo 103 allow for PCM output and will be compatible?

Also, you recommended the Darby Edition vs. the regular Oppo BDP-103. I won't be changing my JVC RS35 DILA project anytime soon, so 3D and 4K are irrelevant. Do you still suggest the Darby edition in my case?
I had the 103D and 105D before the DX5. The DX5 is more film-like. More easy on the eyes. Less eye strain, especially in a dark environment. My display is the Panasonic 65ZT60. Last gen flagship plasma.

I would keep the DX5 if possible. If you use spdif from 103 to QX5, blu-ray concert will not sound as good due to the 48khz limitation. Also, SACD will be down-sampled to 88.2khz from the 103 to the QX5. Better to use analog out from the DX5 for both.
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post #1539 of 1555 Old 11-24-2016, 06:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Wiens View Post
I placed an order for a QX-5 today. I haven't heard it, but have every confidence it will be be a significant step up. To help fund the purchase I'm going to sell my beloved DX-5.

Charlie, you mentioned that the QX-5 optical input would not handle Dolby Digital or DTS. Do you happen to know if Apple TV or the Oppo 103 allow for PCM output and will be compatible?

Also, you recommended the Darby Edition vs. the regular Oppo BDP-103. I won't be changing my JVC RS35 DILA project anytime soon, so 3D and 4K are irrelevant. Do you still suggest the Darby edition in my case?
Getting PCM out of your devices will not be a problem. However, if you get the latest version of Apple TV you will have a bigger issue, the only output is Hdmi. Using it would require an audio de-embedder.

The Oppo 100 series players are out of stock and out of production. The 4K 203 will be shipping in a month or so, no Darby version for the moment, probably because there is no 4K Darby chip.

There are 103 and 103D still available from various online sources with new players selling in the $1000 range.
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post #1540 of 1555 Old 11-24-2016, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by @TOMMY@ View Post
I had the 103D and 105D before the DX5. The DX5 is more film-like. More easy on the eyes. Less eye strain, especially in a dark environment. My display is the Panasonic 65ZT60. Last gen flagship plasma.

I would keep the DX5 if possible. If you use spdif from 103 to QX5, blu-ray concert will not sound as good due to the 48khz limitation. Also, SACD will be down-sampled to 88.2khz from the 103 to the QX5. Better to use analog out from the DX5 for both.
I have ripped all my SACD's and don't have any music Blu-ray's. The player would be only for movies. That's all I've been using my DX-5 transport for this last year. It's mostly just used as a DAC now.

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post #1541 of 1555 Old 11-24-2016, 09:56 AM
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Getting PCM out of your devices will not be a problem. However, if you get the latest version of Apple TV you will have a bigger issue, the only output is Hdmi. Using it would require an audio de-embedder.

The Oppo 100 series players are out of stock and out of production. The 4K 203 will be shipping in a month or so, no Darby version for the moment, probably because there is no 4K Darby chip.

There are 103 and 103D still available from various online sources with new players selling in the $1000 range.
I did grab the previous generation Apple TV when I heard they were going out of production a couple of months ago. It has the optical out. However, I understand that I could stream Netflix through an Oppo so I may not need it if I go this route. I didn't realize the 100 series had gone out of production. I haven't really paid attention to this part of the market in recent years. Perhaps waiting for the 203 is the way to go. I'll have to read up on what else about the 203 will be better than the 103.

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post #1542 of 1555 Old 11-24-2016, 10:18 AM
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I did grab the previous generation Apple TV when I heard they were going out of production a couple of months ago. It has the optical out. However, I understand that I could stream Netflix through an Oppo so I may not need it if I go this route. I didn't realize the 100 series had gone out of production. I haven't really paid attention to this part of the market in recent years. Perhaps waiting for the 203 is the way to go. I'll have to read up on what else about the 203 will be better than the 103.
At this point all we know about the 203 is that it will have similar I/O to the 103, support 4K/HDR discs and be about the same price. Word is that there will be no steaming apps to begin with.

I would suggest that if you want a video streaming box you get the Roku Ultra. Better performance than Apple TV 3 or 4 with 4K, voice control and far more streaming options @$129.95.

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post #1543 of 1555 Old 11-24-2016, 11:08 AM
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At this point all we know about the 203 is that it will have similar I/O to the 103, support 4K/HDR discs and be about the same price. Word is that there will be no steaming apps to begin with.

I would suggest that if you want a video streaming box you get the Roku Ultra. Better performance than Apple TV 3 or 4 with 4K, voice control and far more streaming options @$129.95.
Thanks for pointing that out. I would have assumed the 203 would have had streaming capability out of the box. My Apple TV is fine from streaming now, but if I sell the DX-5 I would like a combined player / streamer. Maybe I should pick up a 103D before they are all gone. Or wait and buy a 203 on the assumption that apps like Netflix will come later.

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post #1544 of 1555 Old 03-20-2017, 06:14 AM
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I've been so pleased with the sound using my C-5xeMP that I'm thinking of replacing an Oppo 105D with a DX-5. I assume the video will be as good as the Oppo and that the audio will be superior -- I'm fond of opera on Blu-ray. But I wonder if the DX-5 provides connections to services like HBO, Tidal, and Berliner Philharmoniker as does the 105. Apparently those service connections are dropped from the Oppo 205 for a reason I didn't understand. Fire TV offers an HBO connection, but neither of the other two. I haven't checked out what if any connections Apple TV offers. BTW, I really like the sound with the K-5xeMP preamp and hope to add a VX-5 Twenty soon.

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post #1545 of 1555 Old 03-20-2017, 08:58 AM
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The person who bought my DX-5 thought it was a significant sound quality upgrade to his C-5. Unfortunately it doesn't allow apps such as Netflix. I purchased a QX-5, Apple TV and Oppo 203 to do everything. I have the previous ATV for It's optical out, to the QX-5. There's no optical in on the DX-5 unfortunately.


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post #1546 of 1555 Old 03-20-2017, 09:47 AM
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Hi Tim,

Quick question - how did you feel the PQ of Oppo 203 compared against that of the Ayre DX-5 when playing Blu-ray discs? (Many find the Ayre provides a more relaxed and immersive experience, but which rarely is apparent on test patterns.)

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
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post #1547 of 1555 Old 03-20-2017, 10:17 AM
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Hi Tim,

Quick question - how did you feel the PQ of Oppo 203 compared against that of the Ayre DX-5 when playing Blu-ray discs? (Many find the Ayre provides a more relaxed and immersive experience, but which rarely is apparent on test patterns.)

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
I was without either player for a number of weeks, so I'm not entirely sure, but I think your "relaxed" comment is fair. The Oppo has a great picture, but perhaps impressive in a way similar to an audio system that impresses at first but over time one realizes it's fatiguing. It's just fine for us though. Over time music has become relatively more important than video. A lot of what we watch are foreign or independent films that may not be available on blu ray or high res streaming anyway. We probably use Netflix more than play discs. I'm actually considering selling the Oppo to simplify, and adding our blu ray collection to the server where our music files reside.

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post #1548 of 1555 Old 03-21-2017, 09:08 AM
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Oppo vs. Ayre

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Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Hi Tim,

Quick question - how did you feel the PQ of Oppo 203 compared against that of the Ayre DX-5 when playing Blu-ray discs? (Many find the Ayre provides a more relaxed and immersive experience, but which rarely is apparent on test patterns.)

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
Charles,

I beg you not to discontinue disc players totally. I totally understand why you would have the dac separate but I have been buying your players for years. I am holding onto my DX5 DSD. I have had 3 DX-5s and go back to the original D1. The picture quality doesn't compare to anything out there. If you don't make disc players then there will be a hole in my soul for video quality. The pictures on the rest have no soul. Are so blandly technical.

Jeff
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post #1549 of 1555 Old 03-21-2017, 01:23 PM
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This may not be the correct thread in which to address my dilemma, but Charles Hanson seems to follow it. The audio link I'm concerned about is a C-5xeMP balanced to a K-5xeMP then either balanced to a VX-5 Twenty, or unbalanced through a Velodyne SMS-1 between the preamp and amp that would high-pass to a pair of KEF LS50s and low-pass to a pair of HGS-10s. Rolling-off frequencies below 80 Hz is claimed to improve the sound of the LS50s, but that would be at the cost of adding an unbalanced line. Is the tradeoff worth it?

The LS50s are racing red, and my wife tells me they are not to be replaced by KEF Reference 1s.

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post #1550 of 1555 Old 03-22-2017, 03:22 PM
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Charles,

I beg you not to discontinue disc players totally. I totally understand why you would have the dac separate but I have been buying your players for years. I am holding onto my DX5 DSD. I have had 3 DX-5s and go back to the original D1. The picture quality doesn't compare to anything out there. If you don't make disc players then there will be a hole in my soul for video quality. The pictures on the rest have no soul. Are so blandly technical.

Jeff
Thanks very much for the kind words, Jeff. Ayre has dedicated a vast amount of resources to advance the state of the art for both audio and video playback. As many have found, the resultant picture quality and sound quality are unparalleled. The difficulty is that the video industry in particular is driven by a model of planned obsolescence. Video products tend to be introduced with a one-year life cycle, while Ayre requires three to five years to recoup the R&D investments needed to optimize any new technology. I don't personally see a good solution. Please let me know if you do.

Kind regards,
Charles Hansen
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post #1551 of 1555 Old 03-22-2017, 03:40 PM
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I was without either player for a number of weeks, so I'm not entirely sure, but I think your "relaxed" comment is fair. The Oppo has a great picture, but perhaps impressive in a way similar to an audio system that impresses at first but over time one realizes it's fatiguing. It's just fine for us though. Over time music has become relatively more important than video. A lot of what we watch are foreign or independent films that may not be available on blu ray or high res streaming anyway. We probably use Netflix more than play discs. I'm actually considering selling the Oppo to simplify, and adding our blu ray collection to the server where our music files reside.
Thanks for the feedback, Tim. When Ayre began working on video in the late '90s, we realized that the audio world had a 40-year head start in creating a vocabulary to even discuss the types of artifacts that could be heard - "bright", "dull", "murky", "bloated", "diffuse", "crisp", to name just a few of the more obvious ones. In contrast subjective video evaluation not only lacked a shared vocabulary, but the types of artifacts themselves were completely foreign, requiring lots of time and effort to even articulate.

Compared with traditional projected film, video seems to be prone to at least two different (yet possibly related) problems. One is the relative motion of an object on the screen (either due to its motion or to the apparent motion created by the panning or zooming of a camera), and the other is the interruption created by film edits. After each edit, the eye/brain must "reassemble" the colored arrangements of dots into an image that has meaning. Ayre equipment excelled at both of these tasks, thereby minimizing subconscious distractions from the viewers. The result was a more engaging and rewarding experience of cinematic story telling.

Thanks,
Charles Hansen
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post #1552 of 1555 Old 03-22-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dbphd View Post
This may not be the correct thread in which to address my dilemma, but Charles Hanson seems to follow it. The audio link I'm concerned about is a C-5xeMP balanced to a K-5xeMP then either balanced to a VX-5 Twenty, or unbalanced through a Velodyne SMS-1 between the preamp and amp that would high-pass to a pair of KEF LS50s and low-pass to a pair of HGS-10s. Rolling-off frequencies below 80 Hz is claimed to improve the sound of the LS50s, but that would be at the cost of adding an unbalanced line. Is the tradeoff worth it?

The LS50s are racing red, and my wife tells me they are not to be replaced by KEF Reference 1s.

db
In my experience, it is best to avoid adding any electronic circuitry to speakers that operating much above 100 Hz. In practice this means you will want to run your LS-50s full range, and simply use the sub-woofer to augment their somewhat limited bass capabilities. I would start with that configuration and adjust the sub-woofers for the best integration and matching with your KEFs (excellent speakers, by the way).

Cheers,
Charles Hansen
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post #1553 of 1555 Old 03-22-2017, 06:46 PM
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The difficulty is that the video industry in particular is driven by a model of planned obsolescence. Video products tend to be introduced with a one-year life cycle, while Ayre requires three to five years to recoup the R&D investments needed to optimize any new technology. I don't personally see a good solution.
Charles Hansen
Hi Charles,

That's also my take regarding the driving force behind the video industry today--"planned obsolescence." First HD was thrust upon us with 1080. Then 3D came along as a planned game changer. When that failed, now UHD and HDR has taken over and it's still in it's infancy. When we buy new video gear, it is for all practical purposes obsolete the day that we bring it home. Who would blame Ayre for getting out of video and now we have first hand information as to why from you.

I never had the chance to experience the DX-5 for either video or audio, but did own the marvelous Ayre C5-exMP SACD player and now have the excellent QX-5 DAC as my main digital source.

Bob

A/V SYSTEM: Sony Z9D 75" LCD main, LG EF9500 OLED, Anthem 525 5.1 channel amp, Anthem AVM 60 processor, ProAc D80 L+R, ProAc Response CC, AT surround Speakers, SVS SB12+ Sub, Oppo 203 and OPPO 103 BluRay players, TiVo Bolt, PS Audio P10 power plant, Auralex room treatments, black out curtains.
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post #1554 of 1555 Old 03-22-2017, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
In my experience, it is best to avoid adding any electronic circuitry to speakers that operating much above 100 Hz. In practice this means you will want to run your LS-50s full range, and simply use the sub-woofer to augment their somewhat limited bass capabilities. I would start with that configuration and adjust the sub-woofers for the best integration and matching with your KEFs (excellent speakers, by the way).

Cheers,
Charles Hansen
Thanks for your reply. I just bought a balanced Bryston 10B (used for $1K, not $3.5K MSRP) to sit between the preamp and amp. I'm pleased with the LS50s except of the very bottom end that seems ragged. It's claimed their distortion rises significantly below 100 Hz, and that may what I'm hearing. They're racing red, and my wife is adamant about not replacing them.

I really like the Ayre sound, and Irrational, But Efficacious really works.

As an alternative to the Parasound A 21 I was using to drive the LS50s, I have on MOL permanent loan a pair of Cary CAD 572 SE monoblocks. The Ayre preamp moved the sound in the direction of the tube amps -- of course, one of those amps is out now, but the owner has a bunch of the Russian tubes and we'll try to bring it back up.

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Ayre Video

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Hansen View Post
Thanks very much for the kind words, Jeff. Ayre has dedicated a vast amount of resources to advance the state of the art for both audio and video playback. As many have found, the resultant picture quality and sound quality are unparalleled. The difficulty is that the video industry in particular is driven by a model of planned obsolescence. Video products tend to be introduced with a one-year life cycle, while Ayre requires three to five years to recoup the R&D investments needed to optimize any new technology. I don't personally see a good solution. Please let me know if you do.

Kind regards,
Charles Hansen
Charles,

I do understand the mechanics of the R&D and the business restraints related to the licenses and such that are required. It continues to dumbfound me the fees related to the licensing of products. It seems they should want their products to succeed, so why restrict it to the degree they do? That is conversation for another day and one that will yield no resolution, unfortunately.

I have not brainstormed your question in depth and if the opportunity presents itself, I would love to do that with you to fully understand every obstacle so as to know the best solution. With that being said, the few ideas that I have regarding the video would be to help diversify the investment of the R&D for video in a few of the following ways:

1.) Allow dealers, that believe in the Ayre video that would stand to make money from selling players, to invest in the R&D for possible additional purchasing discounts if they sell a certain amount of the players when it comes to market.

2.) Allow customers to make non-refundable deposits towards new players that you plan to develop and possibly offer them a slight discount for the money up front. This would take some of the burden of expense off of Ayre while being developed (if enough deposits were made) and will indicate how many players might be sold up front. This method, I believe, would possibly work because of the devotion many AYRE fans have to your products. I know that at this point, I will only have a full AYRE system and I doubt that will ever change for me and I am sure many other people as well. I don't know your customer database, nor the relationships given so that data eludes me to make a decision.

3.) I would have possibly more additions to consider if I understand the parameters of the technology to understand if it is possible to offer upgrade paths as well. I don't know your data on the profitability of the upgrades on products and how many people have taken you up on upgrades, etc. There would be no shortage of accounting numbers needed to quantify this approach.

4.) Having a joint relationship with a company (not Oppo since they misrepresented things to you once before and from what I have heard, pilfered your design ideas without payment) that you trust and have a joint beneficial relationship with that could benefit from the technology. Possibly have a cable tie in to the video circuitry inside and the cable used to connect the machine that would be included. This is easier said than done. Again, numbers would be needed to evaluate but sometimes the harder approach pays more in the long run.

5.) This seems simple and overstated but not sufficiently explored in the world of high end audio. Marketing in the mainstream instead of the isolation of the high end.


There are several other options that come to mind. I am not sure it would be prudent or efficient to mention them here.

I am hesitant to even start believing that my comments would spark any ideas, but I have always believe that Ayre products are underserved and undersold and they have earned a spot in our audio/video world that is being under utilized to a very large degree and that a spark could ignite a fire to realize the potential.

Jeff Gossett
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