Official OPPO BDP-83SE Analog Audio Discussion Only Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

snip... Keep in mind, however, that reviews in my column will be heavily weighted towards multichannel features and away from POS (plain old stereo).

Hmmm... I'm not quite sure how to take that acronym Kal

So much media, so little time...

 

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post #452 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Keep in mind, however, that reviews in my column will be heavily weighted towards multichannel features and away from POS (plain old stereo).

Thats a good one Kal using POS as a acronym for plain old stereo.

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post #453 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Keep in mind, however, that reviews in my column will be heavily weighted towards multichannel features and away from POS (plain old stereo).

But the meat of this upgrade board is the ES9016 with 4 sets of DAC each channel in then 2 such channels for stereo.
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post #454 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by newlife View Post

But the meat of this upgrade board is the ES9016 with 4 sets of DAC each channel in then 2 such channels for stereo.

But Oppo claims that you would hear improvements in Mch outputs as well. And besides, couldn't you connect front speakers to the 2 channel outputs, and the rest to the Mch? I would think Oppo drives all DACs at the same time, so you are still getting benefits of higher quality L and R channels in Mch SACD, correct?
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post #455 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by avsBuddy View Post

Umm, you are saying what I'm saying. Of course, it is by choice - but the reason is again one of the 3 I listed. When Mch SACD started to come out, there was an outburst of weird "rage" on the audiophile forums from people who were basically saying: "Bah! I have a uber expensive Mac amp up front, $2k Kimber cables and a B&W Nautilus running in my 2 channel. I worked all my life to setup a 2 channel system to give illusion of 3D environment. And now you want me to buy into Mch SACD? Well that means that I need to get another 3 Nautilus speakers, another set of Kimber cables etc etc . Go away!" After a while, a Mch audio system became a Taboo in the audiophile society. Mch was for the Joe Six pack crowd. Example was a first SACD player by Marantz for $1000 which supported Mch SACD, followed by a "Reference" player for around $6000 with 2 channels only.

I understand what you are saying, but to me it seems more applicable historically. I think there are many more 'philes' that have more than one system at home. One we would consider 'purist' (2ch ultimate) and another (still of very high quality) for cinema and less critical music listening (to 'their ears' and maybe ours?).

My main point was that most of us who appreciate affordable but quality A/V gear, likely possess a good selection of CDs as a mainstay. To support that 'habit' we see an advantage of a multi-media player (ala Oppo) that does justice to both audio & video media (2ch and MCH) and a notch above popular brand components in price but also performance.
I agree, we are saying similar things, if only from slightly different perspectives.
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post #456 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by avsBuddy View Post

But Oppo claims that you would hear improvements in Mch outputs as well. And besides, couldn't you connect front speakers to the 2 channel outputs, and the rest to the Mch? I would think Oppo drives all DACs at the same time, so you are still getting benefits of higher quality L and R channels in Mch SACD, correct?

I am concerned about the 2 channel tracks (CD, SACD) from the ES9016 DAC configured as 2 channel. I hope this is OK for you.
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post #457 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 01:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barryecohen View Post

Hmmm... I'm not quite sure how to take that acronym Kal

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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Thats a good one Kal using POS as a acronym for plain old stereo.

I've used it before. I hope no one is insulted.

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Originally Posted by newlife View Post

But the meat of this upgrade board is the ES9016 with 4 sets of DAC each channel in then 2 such channels for stereo.

Indeed. Since I have already reviewed the BDP-83, the emphasis with the 83SE will be on the differences which, as you all are aware, pertain mostly to the analog outputs. You'll see. I will listen to them.

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post #458 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by avsBuddy View Post

But Oppo claims that you would hear improvements in Mch outputs as well. And besides, couldn't you connect front speakers to the 2 channel outputs, and the rest to the Mch? I would think Oppo drives all DACs at the same time, so you are still getting benefits of higher quality L and R channels in Mch SACD, correct?

No, you couldn't. The L/R get the down-mixed signals when you playing a MCH source so they are no longer 'discrete fronts'.
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post #459 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

The question would be whether or not the level can be adjusted even if it is being mixed into the mains. If it is being boosted 10db, then I would want to manually take the sub level down as much. It may not allow that, however.

Regardless, the bottom line is that they are not going to do it, and I decided to spend more money on an alternative solution, so it is all academic. I did also order my upgrade for the BD-83 last night. Damn the economy, full spending ahead!

mmmm...sigh...just caught this thread a little too late (well not totally). i just ordered a BD83 (standard) and i'm going to run into this same problem...

my current mid-fi home theatre set up has a the fronts L/R as full range (gallo micros with powered sub -- not totally full range, probably flat to about 32 hz) and my center and surrounds are only good to about 90 hz. i guess the proof in concept will be playing this and seeing how good/bad it sounds and if i lose tons of LF extension or slam in movies. my system, for DVD has been calibrated to give me a flat response for simple stereo sound (2 channel) and it has always sounded balanced for movies with reasonable enough slam (although not really movie theatre vibration wrenching shaking ) for my tastes.

if the problem exists, i may "borrow" my REL sub which i have currently hooked up via high level input to my higher end two channel system (same room, but entirely separate)... (although if memory serves me correctly, it may give me some ground loop issues which maybe i can solve if i play around enough)

or alternatively, just go small with everything and hook up the sub directly although in my experience, that compromises the 2 channel performance using the receiver's crossover capabilities as opposed to the sub doing the work since it was designed to work with the dimunitive micros)

but i am bummed out. it sounds like Oppo took a abrupt "reverse course" on this one if i read the history here correctly, and that is in itself is a bit disquieting.

but i guess i'll reserve judgment fully until i get my unit in my hands to set up and play with...
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post #460 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Many here have expressed dissappointment tha the Multi-Channel DAC used in the Se (ES9006) is inferior! Where do y'all base these claims from? Where's the data tha shows its inferiority?

The factory data sheet (linked here a couple of times already) shows that the 9016 Ultra and the 9018 Reference DACs have significantly lower THD and higher DNR than the 9006 Premier DAC. Also, the 9006 is apparently 24-bit, whereas the other two chips have the patented 32-bit Hyperstream architecture. Further, the Jitter Eliminator feature of the 32-bit chips is not mentioned in the description of the 9006.

Whether any of this is audible remains to be seen (heard). Jitter reduction provides the most hope. I have yet to find evidence of any room, microphone, headphone, anechoic chamber, or sound-isolation booth with a noise floor low enough to allow even the worst case (-102 dB THD of the 9006) to be audible.
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post #461 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I've used it before. I hope no one is insulted.

Actually, I find it extremely offensive...

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post #462 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Actually, I find it extremely offensive...

Actually, it is derived from the acronym POTS.

And I like soup.

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post #463 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I bought a cheap ($60) and small (5") LCD monitor, intended for automotive use, and connect it to the Oppo's composite output. Let's me use menus and and monitor format/track/level without a bug display.

Great Idea, I thought you had the Classé SSP-800 and that you could see what happens on your screen!
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post #464 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Actually, it is derived from the acronym POTS.

Piss Off, Tomorrow's Saturday (principally Australian slang)??


Damn, Oppo sure does create buzz. Like the owner's thread, this one's hypertrophying at a remakable rate!

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #465 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foothill View Post

The factory data sheet (linked here a couple of times already) shows that the 9016 Ultra and the 9018 Reference DACs have significantly lower THD and higher DNR than the 9006 Premier DAC. Also, the 9006 is apparently 24-bit, whereas the other two chips have the patented 32-bit Hyperstream architecture. Further, the Jitter Eliminator feature of the 32-bit chips is not mentioned in the description of the 9006.

Whether any of this is audible remains to be seen (heard). Jitter reduction provides the most hope. I have yet to find evidence of any room, microphone, headphone, anechoic chamber, or sound-isolation booth with a noise floor low enough to allow even the worst case (-102 dB THD of the 9006) to be audible.

Foothill:

The Jitter Eliminator feature is part of the ES9006 DAC design. Its shown right there on page 1 and 2. I believe the 32-bit HyperStream feature refers to the internal processing within the DAC. Well, the ES9006 has a 28-bit HyperStream feature with a 48-bit interim accumulator for interim processor results. Does the 32-bit outperform the 28-bit processing? On paper, YES. But really, the 32-bit DACs have outrageously low distortion numbers and insanely high SNR figures, which is really excellent. Will these specs hold up when they are placed in a system such as a BD player? Absolutely not! Since the Oppo doesn't isolate each subsystem with heavy copper shields like in the much more expensive players, then other sources of noise within the player will degrade these superlative numbers in a jiffy! Don't be suprised if the SNR measured from the Stereo outputs of the OppoSE is at least 10 dB worse than that one of the DAC itself! Performance as a system is always what counts.

Even with the 10dB loss in SNR, this still very pristine signal has to go through your preamp/AVR/processor for some. Count on at least a further 3 dB degradation in noise levels. Then the big one....the MCH power amplifier, even more noise.

Anyhow, does this increase in system noise detract from the musical experience you'd be getting listening to your favorite music? I highly doubt it, if you have a mid-to-high end setup for your music system.

I posit that if you had two versions of the Oppo SE, one equipped with the ES9006 MCH DAC and the other one equipped with the fancier ES9016/18 DAC, and were placed in identical systems, you'd getting similar overall SNR/THD specs as the noise within the Oppo's and the rest of the components downstream would do their best to inject noise in the system

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #466 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by rombullterrier View Post

To me, redbook has always sounded flat, unnatural and mechanical; it grates on my nerves. SACD sound like real music; dimensional even when only in stereo, even better in MCh.

I've got wonderful sounding CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's, and DAD's. I've got crappy sounding CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's, and DAD's. Seems to me it comes down to the work done in the recording and mastering than anything else. Or so I suppose.

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post #467 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by newlife View Post

Since it would not be economical for OPPO to put in more expensive part as this price point and that OPPO has not given further explanation when making such claims like you did. (the claim that 5532 is better than more expensive op-amps in this design), my questions were asking OPPO to elaborate their claims whether it is technical, listening test or whatever.

Did I answer you ? Yes, I did. Do I need to answer you based on your logic as my angle of view is different in the first place ? I don't think so.

No, you still haven't answered the question.

By the way, I made no claim about whether or not the 5532 is the "best" (or even "better") op amp for the design. To make such a claim, I would need to do some circuit simulation and determine which op amp results in the best trade off against key performance characteristics. The answer could be the 5532, or it could be a more expensive op amp, but it could also be a cheaper op amp.

I'm simply asking you to justify your insinuation that somehow quality is related to cost (with regards to op amps and capacitors). So far you have not provided one shred of evidence to support your "angle of view."
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post #468 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by miccar View Post

If that was true why would they put a superior chip in the 2 channel version.

Potentially (note I said *potentially*) you *may* be able to hear a difference on very good headphones.

However, you wouldn't be listening to 7.1 on headphones so arguably there's no real advantage to the difference in noise floor between the two chips.

Don't get me wrong - I would have liked if they used the same DAC for both stereo and multichannel. But I'm not going to whine about it that they didn't.
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post #469 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

I've got wonderful sounding CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's, and DAD's. I've got crappy sounding CD's, SACD's, DVD-A's, and DAD's. Seems to me it comes down to the work done in the recording and mastering than anything else. Or so I suppose.

Very true. When I still had my high end source and preamp in a 2 channel system, there were some recording that made my teeth hurt. I would have to go fetch the good ones to keep me happy. Bad source material will give any system fits.
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post #470 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Keep in mind, however, that reviews in my column will be heavily weighted towards multichannel features and away from POS (plain old stereo).

I think you owe me a new keyboard (a Zenith ZKB-2 or IBM M series will be suitable - not some POS keyboard with crappy switches) and some cleaner for my monitor that just got sprayed with what I was drinking while reading this .
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post #471 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newlife View Post

But the meat of this upgrade board is the ES9016 with 4 sets of DAC each channel in then 2 such channels for stereo.

And it is for that reason why I jumped on this bandwagon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

I've used it before. I hope no one is insulted.

Indeed. Since I have already reviewed the BDP-83, the emphasis with the 83SE will be on the differences which, as you all are aware, pertain mostly to the analog outputs. You'll see. I will listen to them.

Kal, I am not trying to tell you how to do your testing. And maybe you have used a high end 2ch stereo analog tube headphone amp and high end headphones, if you haven't try it. It think you will be surprised at what a very good job the BD-83 does with the 2ch stereo analog downmix for HD soundtracks from a BD. Of all the BD/HD/SD players I have owned the BD-83 does the best job in this configuration. Matter of fact, even through I have a Onkyo TX-SR705A/V and 7.1 speaker system I would much rather use my Headphone setup for the above configuration.
That said using my Headphone gear and my BD-83 for CD/SACDs the audio is good but imo falls short of taking advantage of a higher end audio system.

The biggest reason why I got into the headphone setup is because I was turning my Film viewing into a house hold event. And particularly the brain damage I was getting from the wife.

ss
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post #472 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 05:25 PM
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I still don't think I have read of anyone here getting a new SE or their player back from a SE upgrade. Anyone?
I thought for sure there would have been a walk_in near OPPO headquarters that would be singing the Hallelujah Chorus by now.
Has anyone gotten a shipping notice that their player is on it's way back, or a new player is on the way?
Please do not consider this an invitation for 100 people to post "I just got a shipping notice from OPPO, and according to tracking info...", so just forget I asked.

BTW, I bet no one else here could have spelled hallelujah correctly without help. I know I couldn't.
I mean how often do you type/write that word out anyway? About 2 times every 10 years for me .

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post #473 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 05:54 PM
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Ya, I wounder if Patrick Wilson was singing that song to Dagmara.

ss
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post #474 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I still don't think I have read of anyone here getting a new SE or their player back from a SE upgrade. Anyone?.......Has anyone gotten a shipping notice that their player is on it's way back, or a new player is on the way?

Yes, I posted earlier (a few pages back, post # 419) that my SE is due here Monday, as per Music Direct and UPS.

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post #475 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 07:41 PM
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Hi all

You guys are way more serious about this than I.

Anyway, I got mine yesterday (working near Mountain View has its perks) and I posted my initial impressions over at audiogon and I was going to post the url BUT as I don't have 3 posts they wont let me post a url.

Thought it bad form to just post it here again but as I have been lurking on this forum for awhile and I wanted to get my view out there for folks, here it is.

I have had the SE upgrade for 24 hours now. I was lucky enough to work from home today so I just played "music to work by". DVD, CD and SACD. Probably in equal amounts about 12+ hours total time on it.

Previously, I used the DAC in my Cambridge Audio 840C when using the OPPO. I found the stock OPPO rather forward with an artificial cast. I could listen to it, it is definately not crappy but much preferred the 840C. On dual disk, both DVD and SACD, I found I would rather listen to the CD side in the 840 than the higher resolution in the OPPO. On movies and such I would use the dac in the 840C.

But I need to say the stock OPPO broken in was good and if I didn't have a dedicated cd player I could live with it. OK Maybe...

So before I brought it in I did listen to some music through it. It was about the same. For example, do you know The Who album has a bass guitar on it? I have the dvd-audio of it and through the 840 the bass is very very distinct and at times pushing the rhythm and at other times acts like a lead. Voices sounded more there and the guitar picking was distinct and the acoustic guitars had that depth of sound that comes from a hollow body--It just sounded like real people making music. The record, whether on vinyl, cd or DVD had always sounded very processed to me.

On the OPPO, like every other player I have heard, The voices and instruments sounded "artificial" which has always been digital sound until I got the 840. The bass was fat and not very rhythmic. The pace and timing just weren't the same.

I will put my system here cause I always want to know what the reviewer uses when I read reviews. Along with 840c I use an VAC Avatar (standard) integrated amp and a set of Dali Mentor 6 speakers. Speakers spiked and the equipment is on a Salamander Synergy Twin 30.

So I get home yesterday, plug it in, stick a disc in and hit play and then went to make dinner, hang with the wife, while listing to XM.

So about 2 hours later I start to listen and...

WOW this is pretty bad. The bass was so loose that all the pace and timing were gone. I knew it had to break in but jeez. Voices were disembodied, it sounded flat and 2 dimensional (and I am using a tube amp!). Cymbals were undifferentiated white noise. It felt like torture. Really!

After about an hour and half I couldn't take it anymore and decided to tweak it. I found my BDR cones and put the ones that warm up the sound under it.

Ok it is now listenable. I put on SPYBOY and listen for awhile. Yes better but I was still not sure better than it was. At this point it was time to watch TV with the wife so let it run on repeat for 2 hours or so. I took a short listen before I turned it off for the night. It was getting better as I listen to the Spyboy choir.

During the day as I listened while working I noticed that the bass was now a little boomy which I know are those cones so I switch them out for the ones that are more neutral.

At one point during the day I sat in my listening chair while doing some work on my laptop. When the piano entered in one of the songs I was struck by its clarity. Then I started listening the Trumpet and saxes and noticed how clear their tone was. The trumpet had real bite and the two saxes had very distinct tones. The bass had tighten up as well...

So I have had a couple of hours after work to listen again seriously. I removed the cones cause I didn't use the them on the standard one and I wanted to get a feel on how much better the SE sounded. As this was an upgrade I couldn't do any comparison to the standard model and so I decided not to compare it to the 840C and listen to it as if it was the only player I had.

It is sounding much better. I listen to "Tommy" again as that was what I listen to before I brought it in to be upgraded. The SE is not as forward, there is more depth to the sound. Soundstage was always wide but now it has more layers. The tone seemed to better as well, the acoustic guitars getting that depth.

I am not great at describing the sounds but what I do know that I found myself listening to the music more that the sound.

So I will listen some more but I am thinking the BDR cones maybe mandatory which makes sense. This is still a $500 player and if there was a place to cut costs it would be in the external isolation.

Well back to listening. I may update this after some time has passed and it is well broken in. But I wanted to get his published as there are little or no reviews of it on the web. Least the last I looked.
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post #476 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 07:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I still don't think I have read of anyone here getting a new SE or their player back from a SE upgrade. Anyone?
I thought for sure there would have been a walk_in near OPPO headquarters that would be singing the Hallelujah Chorus by now.
Has anyone gotten a shipping notice that their player is on it's way back, or a new player is on the way?

Ric Schultz received one yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=354
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post #477 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by bearchan View Post

Ric Schultz received one yesterday.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...&postcount=354

He mentions a $60.00 MBBM in his post, what is a MBBM?

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #478 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 08:06 PM
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He mentions a $60.00 MBBM in his post, what is a MBBM?

Bill

It's his basic mod for the 83.

http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Oppo_BDP-83_Mods.html
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post #479 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I still don't think I have read of anyone here getting a new SE or their player back from a SE upgrade. Anyone?
I thought for sure there would have been a walk_in near OPPO headquarters that would be singing the Hallelujah Chorus by now.
Has anyone gotten a shipping notice that their player is on it's way back, or a new player is on the way?
Please do not consider this an invitation for 100 people to post "I just got a shipping notice from OPPO, and according to tracking info...", so just forget I asked.

BTW, I bet no one else here could have spelled hallelujah correctly without help. I know I couldn't.
I mean how often do you type/write that word out anyway? About 2 times every 10 years for me .

Mine arrived at Oppo yesterday 10 AM and has been shipped today. Will arrive next Tuesday via FEDEX. They only took 24 hours to do the upgrade and testing needed and then ship the player. That's fast, I'd say

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #480 of 5806 Old 11-13-2009, 09:50 PM
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No, you still haven't answered the question.

Not answering your question your way (does not equal to) not answering your question.

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Originally Posted by Christine Tham View Post


By the way, I made no claim about whether or not the 5532 is the "best" (or even "better") op amp for the design. To make such a claim, I would need to do some circuit simulation and determine which op amp results in the best trade off against key performance characteristics. The answer could be the 5532, or it could be a more expensive op amp, but it could also be a cheaper op amp.

Noted. My view is that at least you have supported their claims by giving your line of thinking and they have not.

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Originally Posted by Christine Tham View Post


I'm simply asking you to justify your insinuation that somehow quality is related to cost (with regards to op amps and capacitors). So far you have not provided one shred of evidence to support your "angle of view.

Yes, I have already justified. I have even open up the player and noted those capacitors and chips they put it. I even checked which manufacturer and series of cap they are using. If those information about the brands and series of cap, chips ...etc are not correct, you are welcome to correct me.

And surely it is not from Japan and audio grade as replied by OPPO quoted by another member here. This is the first sign of dishonesty (unless they are framed for saying that).

Please read my post carefully and stop making false claims that I have not given you evidence and not answering you.

I find no constructive comments further in this conversation. If you don't mind, I will not contribute further to this thread.
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