Official OPPO BDP-83SE Analog Audio Discussion Only Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

...which, in turn, means that the upgraded DACs and additional $400 of the Oppo 83SE are wasted....

Is there not a case where a better analog signal coming to the pre/pro would give the digital processing a better thing to work with, resulting in a better sound quality after processing? If not, then this form of "upgrade" should be limited to systems that are full range on their own.
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post #182 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:21 PM
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Yes, I have sent in my player for the SE upgrade. I will provide a detailed report on the comparison of the two players. Oppo said the upgrade will take 3 to 4 days. I should have the player by early next week.
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post #183 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Off the top of my head, the Anthem D2 and the nht Processor will do analog all the way through. I think the Cary 11 will, too. I know squat about AVRs.

The Anthem's WILL do analog pass-through -- just providing analog main volume control like a simpler pre-pro.

But no bass management when you do that. And no ARC (room correction). And no speaker distance adjustments. And of course no audio surround processing modes. And no THX post processing.....

For any of that stuff you need to let the Anthems re-digitize the analog audio input (either stereo or multi-channel) -- which they do very well.
--Bob


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post #184 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

Is there not a case where a better analog signal coming to the pre/pro would give the digital processing a better thing to work with, resulting in a better sound quality after processing? If not, then this form of "upgrade" should be limited to systems that are full range on their own.

Sure. That was my point in the thought experiment above. But you need high quality re-digitizing, and you need high quality output DACs in the AVR or pre-pro.

Really it comes down to what's the weakest point in the audio chain. Once the quality is reduced at any point in the chain, nothing you do can recover what's been lost. You've discarded information.

If the current DACs in the 83 are the weakest point in YOUR setup, then an 83SE will give you an improvement even if your setup happens to include processing analog audio input. Keep in mind that the weakest point in YOUR setup may turn out to be your ears.

Now, how on earth do you figure out if that's the case? Figure out that the rest of your setup REALLY IS good enough to preserve the quality improvement offered via the 83SE's analog output even in the face of re-digitizing?

If you figure this out, let me know. I don't know of any objective test or set of specs that will clearly prove the case. Usually it involves deciding that the only thing that matters is what YOU think you are hearing with your ears.

I suppose one thing you could try to do would be to set up an IDENTICAL chain except that in one case the analog audio is re-digitized and in the other case it is not. Flip between them double-blind, and see if you can correctly detect which is which. (Anthem has actually done testing like this, so I've been told.) By "identical" here, I mean, among other things, that you turn off any actually processing of that re-digitized input. You just re-digitize it and then immediately convert it back to analog in the pre-pro with NO PROCESSING in between.

But that of course eliminates the VALUE ADDED from the processing!

For example, if room correction or bass management or whatever adds more value than the re-digitizing removes, then it STILL might be better to re-digitize. Confused yet?
--Bob


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post #185 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:39 PM
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I must say I am very glad I decided to upgrade the Oppo rather than purchase a new audio receiver. I currently use a Marantz SR8500 which is a very good sounding amplifier, using the 7.1 analog pass-through coupled with the newly upgraded BDP-83SE will most certainly provide a very exciting movie experience not to mention the other formats. Can't wait!
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post #186 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch57 View Post

Such as...?

Another one is Bryston, although not so popular. With their SP1.7 and SP2, in pure analog mode, the digital audio circuit is shut down, the FL and FR are unprocessed but their [analog] sum can be fed to the sub out if "XBass" is enabled. This sum is full range so you have to make sure you engage the LPF on your subwoofer.

All of a sudden this new SE become a very attractive upgrade for me. I was looking/deciding to get the SP1.7-to-SP3 upgrade which would have cost about ten times more, ...and it is not even available yet!

Anyway, I can't wait to hear real users' impressions on the SE.
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post #187 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 02:42 PM
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Now that the interest in the SE seems to be high and has been at a fever pitch all day(at least on AVS), I'm curious how many Oppo owners plan to do the upgrade? One you folks well versed in HTML programming should set it up

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers:
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post #188 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 03:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

...If you figure this out, let me know. I don't know of any objective test or set of specs that will clearly prove the case. Usually it involves deciding that the only thing that matters is what YOU think you are hearing with your ears....

As in the high end interconnect and cabling threads!!!

Yes, I've already answered this in my own mind (between the ears ) that for my system, the best I'm going to achieve is via the HDMI digital path. For some others, the straight analog path may be more desirable, or more to their desire for it to be so!
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post #189 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

As in the high end interconnect and cabling threads!!!

Yes, I've already answered this in my own mind (between the ears ) that for my system, the best I'm going to achieve is via the HDMI digital path. For some others, the straight analog path may be more desirable, or more to their desire for it to be so!

I like to listen to 2ch analog rather then HDMI
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post #190 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

The Anthem's WILL do analog pass-through -- just providing analog main volume control like a simpler pre-pro.

But no bass management when you do that. And no ARC (room correction). And no speaker distance adjustments. And of course no audio surround processing modes. And no THX post processing.....

For any of that stuff you need to let the Anthems re-digitize the analog audio input (either stereo or multi-channel) -- which they do very well.
--Bob

OF course, Bob. I am not in favor of analog output when one has the digital option and one is going to re-digitize anyway.

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post #191 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I like to listen to 2ch analog rather then HDMI

And you have every right to do so.

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post #192 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

And you have every right to do so.

Should I go Nuforce or Oppo?
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post #193 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

I like to listen to 2ch analog rather then HDMI

Yes, well the point of the current discussion was that except with some of the higher end AVRs, it gets digitized so you're note really listening to "analog". At least with the stereo inputs.
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post #194 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XJ6 View Post

Another one is Bryston, although not so popular. With their SP1.7 and SP2, in pure analog mode, the digital audio circuit is shut down, the FL and FR are unprocessed but their [analog] sum can be fed to the sub out if "XBass" is enabled. This sum is full range so you have to make sure you engage the LPF on your subwoofer.

I believe the Outlaw Model 990 operates in a similar fashion. However, their Model 950 performs analog bass management.
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post #195 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Brian-HD View Post

Should I go Nuforce or Oppo?

The more you spend the less you gain.

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post #196 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:19 PM
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Anyone having luck with accessing the trade in form (from the BDP-83 to the Nuforce edition) on Nuforce's website?

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post #197 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Yes, well the point of the current discussion was that except with some of the higher end AVRs, it gets digitized so you're note really listening to "analog". At least with the stereo inputs.

How is this possible?
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post #198 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by sac8d4 View Post

Anyone having luck with accessing the trade in form (from the BDP-83 to the Nuforce edition) on Nuforce's website?

Oppo is replacing the power supply board, audio board, and adding RS-232 for $299 to convert it to a BDP-83SE. What does the $795 upgrade to the Nuforce edition buy you?

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post #199 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Oppo is replacing the power supply board, audio board, and adding RS-232 for $299 to convert it to a BDP-83SE. What does the $795 upgrade to the Nuforce edition buy you?

Well, I do own Nuforce products but more importantly Nuforce is taking it to another level The Nuforce Edition changes the regulation and other related circuit as necessary as to power the different analog output stage. The bottom line is they are installing better parts and optimizing important circuits. which is what this upgrade is all about, better and less distortion causing parts and a better designed circuit

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post #200 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 04:52 PM
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How long can the cables from the dedicated stereo output be? I asked an Oppo rep today and was told up to 50 feet. He even suggested using Radio Shack audio cable, if necessary. My very old VTL, Audio Research, CLS IIz setup is some 30 feet from where I would place the 83se (near my Panny 42", small Linn receiver, and Meadowlark speakers). At one time in audioland we were advised to keep such cables down to 6-9 feet and were advised to get the best possible in order to avoid any loss of frequency response. Any comment about this? Is there anything in the 83se that negates this problem?
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post #201 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:19 PM
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Oppo's email response on the matter is below my inquiry here. Though I must say that Bob P.'s thoughts sure sound logical. Guess we'll just have to wait and see till someone gets the SE and checks it out under similar circumstances.

************************
I've prefered the 2ch analog outs to my Pioneer TXH-94 receiver (outboarded to a Levinson 332 amp), utilizing "Stream Direct" which allows room correction, etc., vs. HDMI and room correction. Would the upgrade to SE be of no value in this configuration since "Stream Direct" involves another D/A conversion? In other words, would the sound from the 2ch analog outs be the same on the 83 and the 83SE if I redigitize in the receiver?

I can see the multichannel analog outs being an improvement, as the receiver will only allow "Pure Direct", not "Stream Direct"; thus no room correction via the receiver.

I only use both sets of analog ouputs for CD and multichannel SACD, DVD-A music. I use HDMI for DVD and Bluray.
*************************

It is likely to not improve your performance in this scenario, as the purpose of upgrading the D/ACs is to improve the the performance related to digital to analog conversions. You may be losing the accuracy of this D/A due to the receiver doing a digital conversion.

Best Regards,

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OPPO Digital, Inc.

See ya. Dave

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post #202 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sac8d4 View Post

The Nuforce Edition changes the regulation and other related circuit as necessary as to power the different analog output stage. The bottow line is they are installing better parts and optimizing important circuits. which is what this upgrade is all about, better parts and less distortion causing parts and a better designed circuit

The SE upgrade shows a brand new redesigned analog board along with a improved power supply board. Without seeing the design differences just saying that they are using better parts and optimizing circuits is hearsay as far as Analog performance.

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post #203 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Off the top of my head, the Anthem D2 and the nht Processor will do analog all the way through. I think the Cary 11 will, too. I know squat about AVRs.

The Krells do pure analog pass-thru and just act as a pre-amp for any of the analog inputs (switchable on the fly via remote or front panel).

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post #204 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

Oppo's email response on the matter is below my inquiry here. Though I must say that Bob P.'s thoughts sure sound logical. Guess we'll just have to wait and see till someone gets the SE and checks it out under similar circumstances.

What would you really expect Oppo to say? They'd be fools to tell you to expect a huge improvement as they'd just be setting themselves up to have a disappointed customer.

What Bob says is spot on IMO - even if you have extra A->D and D->A going on, it is potentially better to have better D->A circuitry in the Oppo. How much better is the key question as you are limited by both the weakest link in the chain AND by the extra conversions you're forcing on yourself by using the analog outputs instead of an HDMI connection.

In your particular situation, you ~should~ get the best sound by using HDMI to your receiver. Using HDMI, you'd end up with:

HDMI -> receiver
digital processing in the receiver (bass management, room correction, etc.)
D->A in the receiver

using analog out from the Oppo you end up with:

D->A in the Oppo
A->D in the receiver
digital processing in the receiver (bass management, room correction, etc.)
D->A in the receiver

The digital processing and D->A conversions that happen in the receiver should be the same (and use the exact same digital to analog circuitry) regardless of which way you get the signal to the receiver. So by using analog, you're forcing 2 conversions that by definition aren't perfect as it's not really an exact science.

It's possible that the receiver (or the Oppo) does some extra processing with the signal that you happen to prefer when using the analog outs. It's also possible that one way results in sound that's slightly louder than the other.

I'm definitely not disputing that you prefer the sound when using the analog outs, but am really wondering what could possibly be "better" about it given all the extra conversions that are taking place. I would think that the "analog crowd" would be wondering the same thing since you're not keeping it analog after it leaves the Oppo.

Anyway, this is obviously straying in the direction of audio theory type discussion and therefore off topic for this thread - just thinking out load so to speak .
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post #205 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

What would you really expect Oppo to say? They'd be fools to tell you to expect a huge improvement as they'd just be setting themselves up to have a disappointed customer.

The digital processing and D->A conversions that happen in the receiver should be the same (and use the exact same digital to analog circuitry) regardless of which way you get the signal to the receiver. So by using analog, you're forcing 2 conversions that by definition aren't perfect as it's not really an exact science.

It's possible that the receiver (or the Oppo) does some extra processing with the signal that you happen to prefer when using the analog outs. It's also possible that one way results in sound that's slightly louder than the other.

I'm definitely not disputing that you prefer the sound when using the analog outs, but am really wondering what could possibly be "better" about it given all the extra conversions that are taking place. I would think that the "analog crowd" would be wondering the same thing since you're not keeping it analog after it leaves the Oppo.

Anyway, this is obviously straying in the direction of audio theory type discussion and therefore off topic for this thread - just thinking out load so to speak .

I understand all the logic regarding extra D/A conversions, and I have taken some heat over this in the past, but it is what it is. In my system, room, and ears, 2 channel out on the 83 and using Stream Direct (room correction) sounds more transparent than HDMI and room correction. This setup also sounds more natural and dimensional to me than with the analog outs without room correction. I'm at a point in life where I don't question things as to "why" as much as I used to; just take things at face value.

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post #206 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:48 PM
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parasound c1/c2 will do analog passthrough as well.
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post #207 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 05:56 PM
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I don't know about all this D/A conversion stuff to get BM from analog and what_not...
However, for my current setup, I use the dedicated stereo output from the BDP-83, and run that directly into a power amp.
It already sounds great, and I still have room treatments to finish.
I wonder how much better it will sound if I upgrade my player to an SE version.

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post #208 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I don't know about all this D/A conversion stuff to get BM from analog and what_not...
However, for my current setup, I use the dedicated stereo output from the BDP-83, and run that directly into a power amp.
It already sounds great, and I still have room treatments to finish.
I wonder how much better it will sound if I upgrade my player to an SE version.

Let me know when you do.
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post #209 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jive Turkey View Post

I understand all the logic regarding extra D/A conversions, and I have taken some heat over this in the past, but it is what it is. In my system, room, and ears, 2 channel out on the 83 and using Stream Direct (room correction) sounds more transparent than HDMI and room correction. This setup also sounds more natural and dimensional to me than with the analog outs without room correction. I'm at a point in life where I don't question things as to "why" as much as I used to; just take things at face value.

I agree with your sentiments as well. I currently have the stereo output going direct to a power amp, but have also tried it running through my AVR with BM and Audyssey correction engaged.

Sounds best to me with direct to amp, still sounds really good running through AVR (which I may go back to that setup for easier operation), then lastly is the HDMI.
They all sound good, but on different levels depending on how you have your setup configured.

Point being, even with additional D/A-A/D conversions, the dedicated stereo output sounds better than stereo though the hdmi connection... to MY ears anyway.

~Dave

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JVC DLA-RS40-U... Oppo BDP-105D... Toshiba HD-XA2... Uverse VIP-2250... Roku Streaming Stick... Emotiva XPA-3... Onkyo TX-SR805
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post #210 of 5806 Old 11-09-2009, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I don't know about all this D/A conversion stuff to get BM from analog and what_not...
However, for my current setup, I use the dedicated stereo output from the BDP-83, and run that directly into a power amp.
It already sounds great, and I still have room treatments to finish.
I wonder how much better it will sound if I upgrade my player to an SE version.

In theory you stand to gain the most. I am using an all analog signal chain in both mch and stereo modes (all tube signal chain in stereo) with analog crossovers for the subs; can't wait to get my hands on the NuForce edition. I was thinking of the flagship Denon or Marantz, but was put off by last-generation load times. It appears this unit will have excellent performance for a modest price, which is a nice bonus.
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