Panasonic DMP-BD65 - Page 2 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:04 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,896
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

I picked up the panasonic 65 last night. I must say that I am impressed with it. pretty much winston was right. this model should have been released last year. its very fast for the most part, still a bit slow on the t2. but the other titles are pretty quick.
the PQ is much better as well. the netflix works nicely and no switching over to pcm or bitstream. that is nice. still has some of the problems from the 60/85.
have to contact panasonic about the bdlive. its not working. amazon on demand works as well.
anyone that has the 60/85. I would highly recommend it.
I will be happy to answer any questions if there is any?
I have it hooked up wired.
Jacob

Jacob

The picture quality is much better than what? I have the BD60 and am wondering if the upconversion is the same or better? I use it with my projector and 106" screen. Other than being faster than the BD60, is there any other upgrade? Thanks.
Jim McC is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:10 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
then both the 60/80. color seem much better on both blurays and dvds. upconversion is much better.

if you like netflix.. it also has that. better loading time is a major plus on this model.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #33 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:29 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jim McC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Oconomowoc, WI.
Posts: 5,896
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

then both the 60/80. color seem much better on both blurays and dvds. upconversion is much better.

if you like netflix.. it also has that. better loading time is a major plus on this model.

Jacob

Upconversion is much better than the BD60? That's hard to believe, since the BD60 is excellent. I hope Sam's starts selling the BD65.
Jim McC is offline  
post #34 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:37 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
did you read winston's review for the 65?
I started with the panasonic 30 and then went to the 60/80 players. there was a big difference between them. not suprising that the 65 is better.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #35 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:40 AM
Member
 
wlbrown9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

then both the 60/80. color seem much better on both blurays and dvds. upconversion is much better.

if you like netflix.. it also has that. better loading time is a major plus on this model.

Jacob

When I got home last night the wife and granddaughter were just finishing up Tinker Bell on BD on the BD85. First time I have really see what I would call true HD (1080P) on the 50" Panny plasma. So I would give it an A+ for BD. I checked a few minutes last weekend after setting it up with DVD and even that was pretty impressive upconverted to 1080P. I watched a movie over Netflix streaming and that upconverted to 1080P from 720P NF stream for a real nice picture. Probably somewhat better that the 720P HD stream Roku HD gives from Netflix.

The main reason I jumped on the 85 instead of the 65 was the included WiFi dongrel since I don't have an easy, direct wired route from my wireless router to the Panny HDTV/ BD location.

One quick question on your Viera Cast.. Do you see anything from Fox Sports? A couple of discussions you Viera Cast note that Fox Sports will be added as well as Netflix. I of course found Netflix, but only saw Amazon VOD, Youtube, Picasa, Bloomberg, Weather and Netflix. Perhaps it will show up soon. Would be nice if Panasonic had a site for that with updates so we would not have to speculate and guess :-).

Bill
wlbrown9 is offline  
post #36 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:45 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I have not seen the sports or twitter. just the netflix and amazon.

http://panasonic.jp/support/global/cs/bd/index.html

here is a link for the latest firmware updates.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #37 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 11:56 AM
Member
 
wlbrown9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpHeRe31459 View Post

There's been no official talk of this as a feature, so I wouldn't hold your breath for it.
The Sony 370/470/570 (with firmware coming in July) or the LG 570 (DLNA enabled right now) might be the way to go if you want DLNA for sure.

It's a shame because DLNA is the only thing Panny is missing to make it competative with the other brands. I really like my BD35 and would like to replace it with something new and fast and online enabled, and Panasonic ideally

For me DLNA isn't a deal breaker, but it is annoying...

Okay, now I did find in a round about way the panny site for UK DMP-BD85 and it claims DLNA support. Have not found the manual yet. Now, even though the US version never mentions DLNA, at least some of the features might be there. I think you may have to find and select/configure network connections to PCs or other devices on your local net in the same window as you configure access to your wireless/wired net for Internet access. I don't have any shared PCs or NASs on my home network, so that may be why I did not see any. I found a good discussion on another forum that educated me on some of the basics and hints of thing to try.

http://forum.bigpicturebigsound.com/...-bd-p4600.html

I don't have a lot of things to share on my PCs (yet) except for a lot of pictures from the digital camera. I'll probably try at some point to get the sharing to work for those. I did try the camera SD card in the SD slot on the panny TC-p50S1 and performance was less than exciting. I'll compare using the SD slot and a USB thumb drive on the BD player to see if that is better.

Bill

Link to UK/Ireland version on DMP-BD85 that states DLNA ...http://www.panasonic.co.uk/html/en_G...trackInfo=true
wlbrown9 is offline  
post #38 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SpHeRe31459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,017
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

still has some of the problems from the 60/85.

What issues from the BD60 are still there?
SpHeRe31459 is offline  
post #39 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 01:43 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I had problems playing the trailers in front of braveheart, forrest gump and gladiator, alien dvd from the 9 disc set.
now the alien disc plays in DTS and not freeze like the 80 player does. but now I get no sound in DTS.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #40 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 01:46 PM
Member
 
BearcatNation's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: West Chester, Ohio
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlbrown9 View Post

One quick question on your Viera Cast.. Do you see anything from Fox Sports? A couple of discussions you Viera Cast note that Fox Sports will be added as well as Netflix. I of course found Netflix, but only saw Amazon VOD, Youtube, Picasa, Bloomberg, Weather and Netflix. Perhaps it will show up soon. Would be nice if Panasonic had a site for that with updates so we would not have to speculate and guess :-).

Bill


Check my post on the first page of this thread, I quoted Panasonic VP's blog entry about streaming features for Viera Cast. It says that Twitter, Fox Sports, Pandora, and a couple others will be added to all lines of Viera Cast, so it would include the 60/80 if im understanding it correctly.

My Setup:
Samsung LN46C630
Denon 790 AVR
Energy CF-30 Tower L/R Speakers
Energy CC-10 Center Channel Speaker
BIC PL-200 Subwoofer
Panasonic BD-60 Blu Ray Player
BearcatNation is offline  
post #41 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 03:52 PM
Advanced Member
 
Highside's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Boise, ID
Posts: 563
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlbrown9 View Post

..........I of course found Netflix, but only saw Amazon VOD, Youtube, Picasa, Bloomberg, Weather and Netflix. Perhaps it will show up soon. Would be nice if Panasonic had a site for that with updates so we would not have to speculate and guess :-).
Bill

Did you find Pandora as well?

ÂThe sheriff and his buddies with their samurai swords.....Â
Highside is offline  
post #42 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 03:56 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
you asking me about the pandora on the new panasonic 65 player.. its not there yet. I have it on my roku.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #43 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 04:36 PM
AVS Special Member
 
SpHeRe31459's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 1,017
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

I had problems playing the trailers in front of braveheart, forrest gump and gladiator, alien dvd from the 9 disc set.
now the alien disc plays in DTS and not freeze like the 80 player does. but now I get no sound in DTS.

Jacob

Are those all DVDs or are the first 3 Blu-ray discs?

With the trailer issues, can you just skip them and then play the main title normaly?
SpHeRe31459 is offline  
post #44 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 04:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
the movies from paramount including braveheart, gladiator and forrest gump.I was talking about the blu ray. alien was on dvd.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #45 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 05:05 PM
Senior Member
 
h0mi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 450
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Not sure if the "trailer" problem is identical to my gripe about the bd60 (can't access the main menu consistently while watching a DVD), and hoping the bd65 lacks this problem.
h0mi is offline  
post #46 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 06:02 PM
Member
 
wlbrown9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjcrjc View Post

Does anyone know if the Panasonic DMP-BD65 will be able to function as a DLNA client to play music, photos and videos off of a local network NAS?

We have been discussing and researching this. Tonight I got the following response from Panasonic...apparently no DLNA on the North American version:

"Thank you for your inquiry.
The North American DMP-BD85 does not have any DLNA features. The models that are DLNA certified are manufactured for other countries/markets.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic. "
wlbrown9 is offline  
post #47 of 1882 Old 03-03-2010, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
I beleive that is still a problem that you are asking about. I will look into it.

Jacob

not sure if the "trailer" problem is identical to my gripe about the bd60 (can't access the main menu consistently while watching a DVD), and hoping the bd65 lacks this problem.
Jacob305 is online now  
post #48 of 1882 Old 03-04-2010, 07:00 AM
Member
 
cohenfive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: sf bay area
Posts: 164
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlbrown9 View Post

We have been discussing and researching this. Tonight I got the following response from Panasonic...apparently no DLNA on the North American version:

"Thank you for your inquiry.
The North American DMP-BD85 does not have any DLNA features. The models that are DLNA certified are manufactured for other countries/markets.

We hope this information is helpful to you. Thank you for contacting Panasonic. "

i got that confirmation as well. also they said they aren't anticipating adding this feature to the north american units. disappointing, and i have no idea why we would get 'dummed down' units without something that is for some (including me) a key piece of functionality.

so as of right now the only mainstream bluray players that support dlna are...lg, same as last year. sony is this summer and panny i guess is in 2011...
cohenfive is offline  
post #49 of 1882 Old 03-04-2010, 07:17 AM
Member
 
wlbrown9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Bartlett, TN
Posts: 35
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post

i got that confirmation as well. also they said they aren't anticipating adding this feature to the north american units. disappointing, and i have no idea why we would get 'dummed down' units without something that is for some (including me) a key piece of functionality.

so as of right now the only mainstream bluray players that support dlna are...lg, same as last year. sony is this summer and panny i guess is in 2011...

Yep. The BD85 does support some file types on a USB drive, max. 120 GB.

One other thing to note, looking at the UK Panasonic site they have the option to purchase Blu Ray recorders. I don't see anything like that in the US.

Bill
wlbrown9 is offline  
post #50 of 1882 Old 03-04-2010, 09:17 AM
Senior Member
 
wymann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 226
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post

i got that confirmation as well. also they said they aren't anticipating adding this feature to the north american units. disappointing, and i have no idea why we would get 'dummed down' units without something that is for some (including me) a key piece of functionality.

so as of right now the only mainstream bluray players that support dlna are...lg, same as last year. sony is this summer and panny i guess is in 2011...

I posted it about it before in the BD60/80 thread, but last year's 2009 Japanese model already had some sort of DLNA support built-in for multi-room viewing of DVR recordings and a Japanese video download service. They're just continuing to lock out the feature here for the second year in a row. So don't count on it coming to North America next year either. I guess Panasonic wisdom is that we don't need or want DLNA here.
wymann is offline  
post #51 of 1882 Old 03-04-2010, 10:00 AM
Member
 
HTPC4Ever's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Where the Sun does not shine
Posts: 89
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by wymann View Post

So don't count on it coming to North America next year either. I guess Panasonic wisdom is that we don't need or want DLNA here.

I've not looked into it, but I'd guess the issue has more to do with legal and licensing issues...

As I argued someplace else, even on my LG 570, the streaming is terrible... I know they can do better, but the streaming is not easy and overall not a good experience.

I'm looking at the 65 simply because streaming is so terrible on BR players that you might as well not have it (at least my thinking at the moment...).

As the guy says above, they have BR writers in the UK... oh, but if we have that, it is illegal.

Or like the oppo tech told me weeks ago: if you stream dvd folders (ts), then that is a sign of illegal activity (or something like that). My reply back was I make my own dvds of family events and pass them out on DVDs. You can write your own dvds using nero, or whatever software you wish. I have tons of DVDs like this.... Which I do... No copyright issues there....
HTPC4Ever is offline  
post #52 of 1882 Old 03-05-2010, 08:16 AM
AVS Special Member
 
robertc88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 3,639
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Are there picture setting adjustments available on this player? So many of the more recent players all seem to have at least some if not the most optimal ones.
robertc88 is offline  
post #53 of 1882 Old 03-05-2010, 09:32 AM
Member
 
si1verfish's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 28
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by cohenfive View Post

so as of right now the only mainstream bluray players that support dlna are...lg, same as last year. sony is this summer and panny i guess is in 2011...

Samsung does DLNA now (C5500, C6500...).
si1verfish is offline  
post #54 of 1882 Old 03-05-2010, 09:58 PM
Senior Member
 
LVKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I picked up the BD-65 this evening (from Best Buy - had about a dozen out on the shelves). I also have a BD-60 which I got a few weeks ago to replace a dead Sammy 2550.

I sampled a few DVD's on the 65 to check upconversion. To my eyes it is a good bit better than the 60 which I thought was very good. Colors seemed to be brighter and more realistic and overall detail seemed to be better. There is a setting in the menu for Detail level, which I think is just edge enhancement. I left it off for comparisons sake. I may play around with this setting tomorrow when I have time.

There is no difference in blu-ray playback that I can tell between the two players. Obviously the 65 disk loading time is much faster than the 60.

I didn't get to play around with Viera Cast yet, but I did go in and it appears that Netflix streaming is functional.

I will probably return the 60 that I got a few weeks ago. For about $35 additional, the DVD upconverting and fast loading alone makes it worth it to me. I have a ton of DVD's and I have no plans on replacing them with Blu-Ray's (except a very few), and I'm sure they will look great on this player from what I've seen so far.

Keith
LVKeith is offline  
post #55 of 1882 Old 03-06-2010, 06:34 PM
AVS Special Member
 
winston9332's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 30
As I mentioned in my review, it appears that Panasonic has made some real strides in the quality of upscaled dvd images with the 65. I have been testing for over a week and find it noticeably better. Have found a few moments of incipient aliasing, but the 65 avoids outright jaggies the 60 and 35 fall into in A/B comparison.

Now here is a question to owners - have you noticed an inconsistency in brightness of certain scenes of dvds? At first, I thought it was certain scenes, but A/B comparison with a Pioneer 23 and Oppo 83 proved it is Panasonic-specific.

Minor foible, but even my wife can notice it (jaggies are missed by her radar). Otherwise, I have been very pleased with this player.
winston9332 is offline  
post #56 of 1882 Old 03-06-2010, 07:26 PM
Senior Member
 
thegoldenhand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Covina, CA
Posts: 342
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Does anyone know the answer to this question? Will any other WIFI USB dongle work on this player? The Panasonic WIFI dongle is like $85! I got a couple of WIFI USB dongles here and I was wondering if that will work so I can get WIFI on the BD65K. Thanks!
thegoldenhand is offline  
post #57 of 1882 Old 03-06-2010, 10:08 PM
Senior Member
 
LVKeith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Posts: 205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
[quote=winston9332;18263317] Now here is a question to owners - have you noticed an inconsistency in brightness of certain scenes of dvds? At first, I thought it was certain scenes, but A/B comparison with a Pioneer 23 and Oppo 83 proved it is Panasonic-specific.

I did notice this in an older DVD that I watched tonight. I thought it was in the transfer. It was somewhat distracting. Other than that it did look better overall than it looked on the the 60 though.

Keith
LVKeith is offline  
post #58 of 1882 Old 03-07-2010, 05:30 AM
AVS Special Member
 
winston9332's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,821
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 30
[quote=LVKeith;18264046]
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Now here is a question to owners - have you noticed an inconsistency in brightness of certain scenes of dvds? At first, I thought it was certain scenes, but A/B comparison with a Pioneer 23 and Oppo 83 proved it is Panasonic-specific.

I did notice this in an older DVD that I watched tonight. I thought it was in the transfer. It was somewhat distracting. Other than that it did look better overall than it looked on the the 60 though.

Keith

I've confirmed it on a number of dvds. It's like the panasonic is trying to exact more contrast out of the scene and causes distinct fluctuations in brightness. Does not affect Netflix of BDs.

Going to call Panasonic next week.

Otherwise, very good dvd image - not quite the Pioneer 320, but probably the next closest save the fact that the brightness fluctuates. Hope this can be addressed via firmware.
winston9332 is offline  
post #59 of 1882 Old 03-07-2010, 12:40 PM
AVS Special Member
 
robertc88's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 3,639
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Well this person seems to like it!

http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-DMP-...owViewpoints=1
robertc88 is offline  
post #60 of 1882 Old 03-07-2010, 12:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,405
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 24
winston.. it would help to know what dvds/blurays you are having problems with.. I ended up switching the panasonic for the 370.

on the panasonic. I could not get the alien from the 9 disc set to work. when it played in DTS on both the directors cut and theatre version. it would play with no sound.
do you have the bravheart, forrest gump or gladiator blurays? do the trailers work on yours?
I had problems playing the trailers on my 80.
I had two panasonic players.. now back to one.. which is why I switched over to the sony. I am liking the sony alot more at the moment.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Blu Ray Players , Panasonic , Panasonic Dmp Bd60 Blu Ray Disc Player Black , Panasonic Dmp Bd65 Blu Ray Disc Player , Panasonic Dmp Bd85k Wifi Enabled Blu Ray Disc Player Black

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off