DBP2011 & DBP-1611 owner's thread. All questions and comments go here. - Page 13 - AVS Forum
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post #361 of 1055 Old 08-14-2010, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrubin View Post

question:

I see one source http://bluray-players.net/denon/deno...11udci-review/ says the DBP2011 will have Denon Link 4th: has this been confirmed?

forgive me if this has been covered already: there seems to be some confusion here...I am starting to think the link is incorrect

TIA

The latest specs I have seen posted on the 2011 show NO Denon link.

Audio outputs listed from Crutchfield:

# audio outputs include stereo, multichannel, coaxial digital, and optical digital

http://www.crutchfield.com/s_033DBP2...CI.html?tp=171
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post #362 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 06:46 AM
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Does anyone know of a planned Marantz 'equivalent' of the Denon DBP-2011UDCI?

Edit: Think I answered my own question, the Marantz UD7005.

Brad
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post #363 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 09:16 AM
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What is really strange to me is that the DBP-2011UDCI does not even appear on Denon's web site yet, but Crutchfield is now showing it as being available this week (8/17).

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post #364 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

What is really strange to me is that the DBP-2011UDCI does not even appear on Denon's web site yet, but Crutchfield is now showing it as being available this week (8/17).

Almost as strange as not even being able to detrimine if the 1611 or 2011 will output full SACD resolution via HDMI.
The 1611UD manual is posted on Denon's website but doesn't give any clear answer about SACD output via HDMI.
You would think that if a product was actually being sold (1611) you would be able to get definitive information.
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post #365 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 05:00 PM
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It has been verified that neither player will support Denon link. Another thing from web posts about the product that is anomalous is that many of them list HDCD as compatible, but the manual for the 1611 does not indicate HDCD support.
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post #366 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

It has been verified that neither player will support Denon link. Another thing from web posts about the product that is anomalous is that many of them list HDCD as compatible, but the manual for the 1611 does not indicate HDCD support.

How much of this can be updated via software at a later point. Meaning, are there things they NEED to put in the manual now vs things they can add later once they do the proper software updates?
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post #367 of 1055 Old 08-15-2010, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJHXBR View Post

Almost as strange as not even being able to detrimine if the 1611 or 2011 will output full SACD resolution via HDMI.
The 1611UD manual is posted on Denon's website but doesn't give any clear answer about SACD output via HDMI.
You would think that if a product was actually being sold (1611) you would be able to get definitive information.

Keep in mind it's in denon's best interest to confirm if it is in fact capable. That said, confirming it is not capable, is not in denon's best interest if that makes any sense.

we won't see these things till september per the contact i have with d/m
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post #368 of 1055 Old 08-17-2010, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

What is really strange to me is that the DBP-2011UDCI does not even appear on Denon's web site yet, but Crutchfield is now showing it as being available this week (8/17).

Now changed to "Ship date uncertain."

I think we'd all agree that that's accurate.
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post #369 of 1055 Old 08-17-2010, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brownstone View Post

Now changed to "Ship date uncertain."

I think we'd all agree that that's accurate.

I spoke to my dealer about the 1611 this past Friday. He called the Denon rep. while I was in the store and he indicated that the 1611's have not been shipped out yet as they are waiting on "...either a part or on a firmware". He anticipated they would be shipped to the distributors the end of August, but that is subject to change if the part/software is delayed. I guess we will get them when we get them!
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post #370 of 1055 Old 08-17-2010, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redbeemer View Post

I spoke to my dealer about the 1611 this past Friday. He called the Denon rep. while I was in the store and he indicated that the 1611's have not been shipped out yet as they are waiting on "...either a part or on a firmware". He anticipated they would be shipped to the distributors the end of August, but that is subject to change if the part/software is delayed. I guess we will get them when we get them!

This is consistent with the info I got from the owner of my local authorized Denon dealership.
It is totally up in the air as to when someone will actually get one of these new 1611's.
These delays are pretty frustrating for the people who have already placed pre-orders and others who are now looking to buy a new player, but in the fast paced world of electronics this is nothing new.
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post #371 of 1055 Old 08-18-2010, 08:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

Does anyone know of a planned Marantz 'equivalent' of the Denon DBP-2011UDCI?

Edit: Think I answered my own question, the Marantz UD7005.

anyone know the differences if any other than the name? what does the extra 100 bucks get you? lol
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post #372 of 1055 Old 08-24-2010, 05:53 PM
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Does anyone else wonder if the delay in the new players has anything to do with concerns brought up in this thread (or ones like it)? Possibly Denon is scrambling to bring the new players into compliance with consumer expectations.
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post #373 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 05:29 AM
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In the question of DSD-to-PCM conversion over HDMI, I'm not sure checking the output rate and depth on a good receiver will be sufficient. This is what I am thinking might happen:

The DSD is downsampled to 16/44.1 PCM which is then upsampled by the DAC to 24/192. The AVR then detects the signal as 24/192 PCM.

I'm not saying that that is going to happen, but it seems like a possibility. Thus, I think some actual listening tests will be necessary to determine whether what these units will output for SACD over HDMI will be what the consumers on this thread actually want.
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post #374 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Does anyone else wonder if the delay in the new players has anything to do with concerns brought up in this thread (or ones like it)? Possibly Denon is scrambling to bring the new players into compliance with consumer expectations.

One consumer expectation is subtitle shift for us CIH users
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post #375 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Does anyone else wonder if the delay in the new players has anything to do with concerns brought up in this thread (or ones like it)? Possibly Denon is scrambling to bring the new players into compliance with consumer expectations.

Highly doubt it. Might be netflix integration of the 3D firmware.
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post #376 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 07:43 AM
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My BB in MN seems to have the Denon 1611 or atleast if you add it to your cart "usually ships to store in 3 to 5 days"
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post #377 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 09:27 AM
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The denon100.com website has updated with a new universal player which features the denon link 4th people have been talking about. I haven't seen a thread about that yet so I thought I'd tag it to the bottom of this one. Just follow the link that says "The Products of Tomorrow" to see the full line up.
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post #378 of 1055 Old 08-26-2010, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

The DSD is downsampled to 16/44.1 PCM which is then upsampled by the DAC to 24/192. The AVR then detects the signal as 24/192 PCM.

um, no. it's a digital (HDMI) connection, there is no DAC involved.

and even if I forgive you that error and we keep it digital.... if the transport was capable of outputting 24/192 digital PCM, why would it take the DSD, downsample it to 16/44.1, and then re-upsample it?

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post #379 of 1055 Old 08-28-2010, 02:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

um, no. it's a digital (HDMI) connection, there is no DAC involved.

and even if I forgive you that error and we keep it digital.... if the transport was capable of outputting 24/192 digital PCM, why would it take the DSD, downsample it to 16/44.1, and then re-upsample it?

Obviously one of is confused. Batpig, since you are definitely a Denon guru, and I'm just a fan, I assume it's me who is confused. Here's my understanding. I trust you'll point out to me where I am going wrong.

First of all, it's my understanding that a DAC isn't actually properly named. The result is still digital, though the hype is that the sampling rate and frequency of 24/192 is apparently indistinguishable from a genuine analog signal at least for nearly everyone. Hence, the audible results of a good DAC are for all intents and purposes equivalent to an analog signal even though the DAC signal can be digitally quantified with a bit depth and rate, which is inappropriate for describing genuine analog signals.

Next, I assumed that the DACs installed in the players would be capable of sending the modified signal either through the analog outs or through the HDMI. Certainly, the HDMI connection is capable of transmitting 24/192 signals for each channel. That's part of the specs. I certainly could be wrong about this. Possibly the DAC engages only when using the RCA analog outs for the players rather than when using the HDMI. That would seem like an odd engineering choice as the DAC would only be useful for enhancing the sounds of CDs or DVDs when using the analog outs rather than the HDMI. Still, that might be possible.

I got sloppy with my terminology in using the word "downsampling." I should have described this instead as "conversion." I think we are still confused in this forum about what quality of digital PCM signal will result from these players when a DSD signal is converted to PCM. We have had some indication that the resultant signal would be 16/44.1, which I think would be unacceptable for many of us who want to use the HDMI for SACD playback. Unfortunately, we have fallen short of verification. I think several of us are concerned that the new players may have a poor method of conversion that could mostly eliminate the auditory superiority of SACD if played through HDMI.

It was suggested that one of these players hooked up to an appropriate receiver would allow the receiver to tell the user precisely what bit depth and rate was being sent through HDMI from an SACD. As mentioned previously, because I think that the DAC should be able to upsample any signal and send it through HDMI, I'm concerned about the following:

The player converts DSD to 16/44.1 PCM. The DAC then engages and upsamples the poorly converted signal to 24/192. The receiver then detects a 24/192 signal through HDMI.

You appear to have reason to think that the DAC cannot upsample a digital signal that goes to HDMI. Maybe you're right, but from my limited understanding, I don't see why that would be the case. If I'm wrong, then no problem. If I'm not wrong, then people should definitely make the effort to listen to some SACDs through HDMI from these players to evaluate the quality of the sound that the player can produce through HDMI. I for one trust my ears more than numbers displayed on a receiver.
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post #380 of 1055 Old 08-28-2010, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

First of all, it's my understanding that a DAC isn't actually properly named. The result is still digital, though the hype is that the sampling rate and frequency of 24/192 is apparently indistinguishable from a genuine analog signal at least for nearly everyone. Hence, the audible results of a good DAC are for all intents and purposes equivalent to an analog signal even though the DAC signal can be digitally quantified with a bit depth and rate, which is inappropriate for describing genuine analog signals.

Yes but when the output filter is applied the result is analog.

Quote:


Next, I assumed that the DACs installed in the players would be capable of sending the modified signal either through the analog outs or through the HDMI.

Nope. The player's DACs have no role in the HDMI digital output.

Quote:


Possibly the DAC engages only when using the RCA analog outs for the players rather than when using the HDMI.

Exactly.

Quote:


That would seem like an odd engineering choice as the DAC would only be useful for enhancing the sounds of CDs or DVDs when using the analog outs rather than the HDMI. Still, that might be possible.

Actual. The DAC is a digital to analog converter. It does not "enhance."

Quote:


I got sloppy with my terminology in using the word "downsampling." I should have described this instead as "conversion." I think we are still confused in this forum about what quality of digital PCM signal will result from these players when a DSD signal is converted to PCM. We have had some indication that the resultant signal would be 16/44.1, which I think would be unacceptable for many of us who want to use the HDMI for SACD playback. Unfortunately, we have fallen short of verification. I think several of us are concerned that the new players may have a poor method of conversion that could mostly eliminate the auditory superiority of SACD if played through HDMI.

Speculation.

Quote:


It was suggested that one of these players hooked up to an appropriate receiver would allow the receiver to tell the user precisely what bit depth and rate was being sent through HDMI from an SACD. As mentioned previously, because I think that the DAC should be able to upsample any signal and send it through HDMI, I'm concerned about the following:

DACs don't upsample, digital filters upsample. In any case, it is irrelevant for the HDMI output which is not derived from the DAC.

Quote:


The player converts DSD to 16/44.1 PCM. The DAC then engages and upsamples the poorly converted signal to 24/192. The receiver then detects a 24/192 signal through HDMI.

Doesn't happen.

Quote:


You appear to have reason to think that the DAC cannot upsample a digital signal that goes to HDMI. Maybe you're right, but from my limited understanding, I don't see why that would be the case. If I'm wrong, then no problem. If I'm not wrong, then people should definitely make the effort to listen to some SACDs through HDMI from these players to evaluate the quality of the sound that the player can produce through HDMI. I for one trust my ears more than numbers displayed on a receiver.

You are confused, either conceptually or semantically.

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post #381 of 1055 Old 08-28-2010, 08:20 AM
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Okay, cool. Thanks for the edification. So the quick check of the bit depth and rate with an AVR will work.
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post #382 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 09:14 AM
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Has anyone noticed that the DBP-1611UD on Denon's website says it coming in mid December? That's just a wee little bit of a delay. I wonder if they are making some major changes based on questions by consumers about the SACD capabilities and/or 3D. I guess we'll have to wait and find out.
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post #383 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 09:35 AM
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Yeah, I just noticed it too... I can't believe they said it was going to be out in July initially and then moved it back to September, and now MID DECEMBER!!!! This is killing me!
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post #384 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 09:44 AM
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The Crutchfield site is now showing the end of January, 2011 for the DBP-2011UDCI. Good thing I don't really need one any time soon...

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post #385 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 09:45 AM
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How about this from the Crutchfield website: Denon DBP-2011UDCI Expected: 1/28/2011
I guess you beat me to it Blindamood!
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post #386 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blindamood View Post

The Crutchfield site is now showing the end of January, 2011 for the DBP-2011UDCI. Good thing I don't really need one any time soon...

Ditto. I think I want the Marantz equivalent, but I definitaly don't need it. The Oppo will get me to the winter just fine, thanks.
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post #387 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Brownstone View Post

Ditto. I think I want the Marantz equivalent, but I definitaly don't need it. The Oppo will get me to the winter just fine, thanks.

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post #388 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 10:55 AM
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There must of have been lots of glitches found in the tesing phase
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post #389 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 10:56 AM
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I guess I will keep my DBP-2010, DVD-2930 and add a Roku for $69. So much reduced clutter.
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post #390 of 1055 Old 09-01-2010, 10:57 AM
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Missing holiday sales? must be something major. I appreciate Denon's commitment to quality.
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