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post #181 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Unfortunately, here in Korea Denon products tend to arrive several months later than they do in the west.

For those of you who seem to have been put off by the discussion of 'universal' especially in relation to HD DVD should know that HD DVD has been resurrected in the form of China Blue (CBHD) with disks priced at less than half of their Blu-ray counterparts. The Format War has already resumed in China, and if China starts exporting CBHD, we could see the Format War go global again.

Incidentally, I am also a little confused about why some people on this forum seem to think that discussion of which 5" shiny disks the 'universal' 1611 and 2011 will support or potentially can support is off topic. To my way of thinking, that's a discussion of the features of the players.

alanwescoat,

The problem with your "Universal" discussion is that you were advocating it support HD DVD (RIP) and VCD, which has little to no value in North America if I am not mistaken. You reside in North Korea where support for VCD may be important, but not here. The AVS Forum is comprised of primarily North American Forum members with a few international forum members. Maybe a better place for your VCD discussion would have been a forum where the topic would have been more relevent.

Now you want to introduce China Blue (CBHD) to the discussion. Another topic with no relevence in my opinion.

I think we need to focus on what media the player does support.

Just my $.02.


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post #182 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

alanwescoat,

I think we need to focus on what media the player does support.

Just my $.02.


Respectfully,
Willie

That's a pretty good response, Willie. Thanks.

Since Denon doesn't seem to be in any big hurry to release a lot of detailed information about these players, I'm thinking that we need to start to compile a list of concerns and questions that people have:

1. Will either player support subtitle shifting?

2. Just how much better will the Burr-Brown 32/192 DAC on the 2011 be over the DAC on the 1611? Will it engage over HDMI, or will the analog outs be needed? For those of us with good DACs on our receivers already, will paying double be worth it for that reason?

3. Questions similar to (2) above for the Anchor Bay video chip.

4. How well will these players convert SACD DSD information into HDMI streams and for the 2011 analog as well?

5. Is there any way to split the HDMI 1.4 signal for those of us with 1.3 and older receivers?

6. Firmware pliability and reprogrammability is significant for several reasons:
a. the promised 3D compatibility.
b. future support for expanding streaming audio and video services.
c. possible future support for other formats based on the same optical technology.

Did I miss anything?

Does anyone else out there find themselves turning to Denon not only because of their excellent audio reproduction but simply because Denon is one of only a tiny handful of manufacturers that support DVD Audio? For the life of me, I cannot understand why DVD Audio is not standard.
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post #183 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 12:38 PM
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2. Just how much better will the Burr-Brown 32/192 DAC on the 2011 be over the DAC on the 1611? Will it engage over HDMI, or will the analog outs be needed?

just how exactly do you propose that a "digital to analog converter" engage over an HDMI connection?

the ONLY benefit of the improved audio on the 2011 vs the 1611 will be if you use the multich analog connections. The value proposition of this "upgraded" analog audio output is for people who DON'T have an HDMI capable system and want to get hi-rez audio off Blu-ray/SACD while still maintaining their older, high-end, non-HDMI setup.

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post #184 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

just how exactly do you propose that a "digital to analog converter" engage over an HDMI connection?

the ONLY benefit of the improved audio on the 2011 vs the 1611 will be if you use the multich analog connections. The value proposition of this "upgraded" analog audio output is for people who DON'T have an HDMI capable system and want to get hi-rez audio off Blu-ray/SACD while still maintaining their older, high-end, non-HDMI setup.

So for redundancy purposes, your saying the 2011 and the 1611 will sound the same over HDMI? I keep trying to give the 2011 a chance to wow me where I feel like I will want to make the jump up to the bigger better player but each time I end up back a the 1611.

So come out with it already so I can order the damn thing?
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post #185 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 01:55 PM
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The audio DACs are NOT used if you output digital audio (over HDMI, optical, etc, etc). So yes, all players will sound the same unless you use analog outs.
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post #186 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

So for redundancy purposes, your saying the 2011 and the 1611 will sound the same over HDMI?

You sure do like to be reassured dontcha?

Yes, every single Blu-ray player will sound IDENTICAL* over HDMI Identical. It's digital data; with a digital connection, the AVR is doing all the processing, EQ'ing, DAC's, amplification, etc. The player is just a transport.

* assuming it can bitstream / decode all the HD audio codecs of course, before the nitpick vultures jump in.

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post #187 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 03:55 PM
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This is another stupid question and I am not sure how to ask it properly where is makes sense. Question: My TV can handle 240 Hz and I am currently using an older model PS3 for my bluray movies. I think I remember reading that the PS3 can only handle up to 60 Hz but I will likely need to visit their forum to confirm. Will the new denon units have anything to do with Hz or give me better picture quality?
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post #188 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by DenonLover View Post

This is another stupid question and I am not sure how to ask it properly where is makes sense. Question: My TV can handle 240 Hz and I am currently using an older model PS3 for my bluray movies. I think I remember reading that the PS3 can only handle up to 60 Hz but I will likely need to visit their forum to confirm. Will the new denon units have anything to do with Hz or give me better picture quality?

Very simplified explanation. It's not that your TV can handle as an input, but what the screen refreshes at. Sources are either 24hz or 60 hz. Most blu-rays are 1080p/24. A few are 1080i/60. Broadcast TV is 60hz, except for some 1080p/24 HD PPVs. The TV will refresh the frames in multiples of 24 to reach its refresh rate. Blu-ray 3D is out put at 120hz (60 per eye). Black frames are inserted by TV's that refresh at 240hz.

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post #189 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by teachsac View Post

Very simplified explanation. It's not that your TV can handle as an input, but what the screen refreshes at. Sources are either 24hz or 60 hz. Most blu-rays are 1080p/24. A few are 1080i/60. Broadcast TV is 60hz, except for some 1080p/24 HD PPVs. The TV will refresh the frames in multiples of 24 to reach its refresh rate. Blu-ray 3D is out put at 120hz (60 per eye). Black frames are inserted by TV's that refresh at 240hz.

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Holy S***! So that was the simplified version? Thank you very much teachsac for breaking it down. I try so hard to keep up with some of this stuff and I end up waiting until I want something and plan to buy it before I learn.
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post #190 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 04:43 PM
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Marantz has announced two "3D-ready" BD players which also play SA-CD and DVD-A.

http://community.whathifi.com/blogs/...nd-prices.aspx
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post #191 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Paul.R.S View Post

Marantz has announced two "3D-ready" BD players which also play SA-CD and DVD-A.

http://community.whathifi.com/blogs/...nd-prices.aspx

Pretty cool stuff. "Highlights include media-streaming support, advanced iPod connectivity (10 products across the range can take a direct digital feed from iPods/iPhones), plus 3D-ready Blu-ray players and receivers."

I wonder what they mean by advanced iPod connectivity? I have an iPod and ipad hooked up to my AVR that I play for background music. I guess some of it will come down to who will write the most firmware updates to support their products?

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post #192 of 1055 Old 06-13-2010, 08:51 PM
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Batpig, thanks for your response on the DAC. I was pretty sure the DAC worked that way, but I needed confirmation.

It is looking more and more as though the 2011 is specifically for those with older receivers who would rather put the money into the player than into a new receiver, which isn't a bad idea. Probably most of us with newer receivers will be well served by the 1611.

Probably a significant issue for many of us on this forum is choosing a player that will be plugged into a Denon receiver. The new Anchor Bay processing appears likely to only be effective for those of us with larger displays.

The Burr-Brown DAC will only be effective through analog out. Accordingly, anyone out there who gets wind of a reviewer doing a check on the 2011 should strongly encourage the reviewer to compare DVD-A and SACD audio both from HDMI and Analog outs. Likewise, a comparison of video directly from the player to displays of various sizes as opposed to video processed through a receiver is warranted.

It looks like for me the 2011 will only be warranted if the analog outs provide significantly better SACD and DVD-A sound through the analog inputs to my AVR-1910. Others might want the analog outs so they can send the HDMI 1.4 directly to their displays, but 3D is a non-issue for me.
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post #193 of 1055 Old 06-14-2010, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

The Burr-Brown DAC will only be effective through analog out. Accordingly, anyone out there who gets wind of a reviewer doing a check on the 2011 should strongly encourage the reviewer to compare DVD-A and SACD audio both from HDMI and Analog outs.

That would actually be pointless. All that does is compare the audio DACs of the player versus the audio DACs of the specific receiver being used.
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post #194 of 1055 Old 06-14-2010, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by BillP View Post

That would actually be pointless. All that does is compare the audio DACs of the player versus the audio DACs of the specific receiver being used.

Well, that's actually what I want to hear about. I would like to know how the new Burr-Brown 32/192 DACs stack up against several other older DACs, including the older Burr-Brown 24/192 DACs. This is an important question. I might seriously consider spending double on the 2011 for slightly better sound reproduction as long as it would be noticeable to my ears.
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post #195 of 1055 Old 06-14-2010, 08:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Well, that's actually what I want to hear about. I would like to know how the new Burr-Brown 32/192 DACs stack up against several other older DACs, including the older Burr-Brown 24/192 DACs. This is an important question. I might seriously consider spending double on the 2011 for slightly better sound reproduction as long as it would be noticeable to my ears.

I dont know that other than the equipment currently in the reviewers chain(keep in mind that most of these reviewers have some sadistic pre/pro setups) you will find someone willing to compare DAC's nor would one put much emphasis on the opinion as the quality of the interpretation will be subject to the reviewers opinion of the sound reproduction.

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post #196 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 03:15 AM
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I dont know that other than the equipment currently in the reviewers chain(keep in mind that most of these reviewers have some sadistic pre/pro setups) you will find someone willing to compare DAC's nor would one put much emphasis on the opinion as the quality of the interpretation will be subject to the reviewers opinion of the sound reproduction.

Yes, of course there will be a certain amount of subjectivity. Also, I expect that the reviews will largely discuss the quality of the BD playback rather than performance with audio formats like SACD and DVD-A. In a more ideal world, you could go into the sales floor of a retailer, have the players hooked up to the same receiver and evaluate their qualities using the same media. Maybe some of you enjoy that kind of privilege in the US or elsewhere, but here in Korea that kind of service is unthinkable.

I'm going to be stuck with what the reviewers and people on forums like this one have to say about these units. There's no way a Korean retailer is going to let me uncrate both players, compare their features, and then return the one I don't want. Once I buy it, it's mine.
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post #197 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

The Burr-Brown DAC will only be effective through analog out. Accordingly, anyone out there who gets wind of a reviewer doing a check on the 2011 should strongly encourage the reviewer to compare DVD-A and SACD audio both from HDMI and Analog outs. Likewise, a comparison of video directly from the player to displays of various sizes as opposed to video processed through a receiver is warranted.

I am pretty sure ALL professional reviewers will be evaluating the analog stage in the 2011, this will ONLY be on their reference setup. Those 32-bit Burr Browns are a part of the selling features of the player.

As far as a video comparison of video directly from the player to displays of various sizes I don't see that happening. I have yet to see a reviewer go through such a painstakingly task. I think it is pretty easy for most of us to reasonably extrapolate opinions based on the size of the reviewers reference display.

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That would actually be pointless. All that does is compare the audio DACs of the player versus the audio DACs of the specific receiver being used.

+1


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post #198 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 08:46 AM
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I am pretty sure ALL professional reviewers will be evaluating the analog stage in the 2011, this will ONLY be on their reference setup. Those 32-bit Burr Browns are a part of the selling features of the player.

Right. The outcome will be based, to a large extent, on the processor being used for the test.

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post #199 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 10:11 AM
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Well, hopefully several people on this forum who purchase the 2011 will tell us about their reference systems and what kind of difference if any they notice in sound quality from the analog outs and the HDMI.
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post #200 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 10:25 AM
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As Willie notes, in terms of video performance there should be no surprises, we already have plenty of knowledge about how the ABT-201x chips perform -- they are superb. There is no reason to think that the 2011 won't be superb as well.

The 1611 probably will be "pretty good" in terms of video processing, generally line with other solid upscalers like most decent consumer BDP's. For anything smaller than a 60" display, pretty much ALL decent BDP's will provide "good enough" upscaling unless you like to sit around watching deinterlacing torture test clips and since the Denon players have "source direct" options, the 1611 can be paired with an ABT equipped AVR.

In short, as we have been saying all along.... if you already have a modern, HDMI receiver with a good video scaler built in, and a 60" or smaller display, there is not much reason to spend extra on the 2011 vs the 1611. The upgrades in the 2011 (improved analog audio section and high-end video scaling chip) are not worth much in this situation; when pairing with a mid-level Denon AVR the audio improvements offered by Audyssey MultEQ + Dynamic EQ will far outweigh any incremental benefits in DAC performance, so using HDMI for audio is a no brainer. The only exception that I can think of is if you have a very large screen display and are a demanding videophile who wants the "tweaking" options for all the video processing in the player itself.

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post #201 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 10:27 AM
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post #203 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Well, hopefully several people on this forum who purchase the 2011 will tell us about their reference systems and what kind of difference if any they notice in sound quality from the analog outs and the HDMI.

Hi Alan ; do you use the audessey multi eq on your denon ? If you [or anyone using the multi analog ins ] do ; that 32 bit dac in the 2011 will have to be a/d converted by most likely a 24/96 adc in your avr to lpcm then d/a converted again after audessey
The 32 bit dac is a numbers marketing exercise imho ; dvd audio/ bluray concert discs usually run @ 24/96 or 24/48 and their signal/noise ratio etc far exceeds a dacs capabilities in a noisy emi/rf ridden avr or player Now if someone has a good acoustic in the room and doesnt need audessey/arc etc and has a pre pro with an analog passthrough [rare] that would be a bit different ..
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post #204 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 12:08 PM
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that 32 bit dac in the 2011 will have to be a/d converted by most likely a 24/96 adc in your avr to lpcm then d/a converted again after audessey

or, even worse, as I alluded to above you will lose Audyssey completely if you use the multich analog inputs (since these cannot be digitized).

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post #205 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 04:14 PM
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I know that several people have asked when they can get one of these players, and I'm interested as well, so I e-mailed Denon Customer Support to ask when the Denon DBP-1611UD would be available for purchase. Below is their response:

"That model should be available at some point in July. There is no official release date as of yet.

Thank you,

Greg McCann
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D&M Holdings NA, Inc."
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post #206 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 04:43 PM
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LOL... here we go again. What happened to June???
Then there is the promise of a 3D fw update. I wonder how "delayed" that will be.

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post #207 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by NashvilleMark View Post

I know that several people have asked when they can get one of these players, and I'm interested as well, so I e-mailed Denon Customer Support to ask when the Denon DBP-1611UD would be available for purchase. Below is their response:

"That model should be available at some point in July. There is no official release date as of yet.

Thank you,

Greg McCann
Technical Support Representative
D&M Holdings NA, Inc."

Come on Denon! Damn I want it now. I hate the waiting game.
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post #208 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 06:04 PM
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par for the course I guess.

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post #209 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwt View Post

Hi Alan ; do you use the audessey multi eq on your denon ? If you [or anyone using the multi analog ins ] do ; that 32 bit dac in the 2011 will have to be a/d converted by most likely a 24/96 adc in your avr to lpcm then d/a converted again after audessey
The 32 bit dac is a numbers marketing exercise imho ; dvd audio/ bluray concert discs usually run @ 24/96 or 24/48 and their signal/noise ratio etc far exceeds a dacs capabilities in a noisy emi/rf ridden avr or player Now if someone has a good acoustic in the room and doesnt need audessey/arc etc and has a pre pro with an analog passthrough [rare] that would be a bit different ..

cwt,

If all the outputs are live from the 2011 like they are in the Oppo then he could hook up everything and see which he prefers.

In my current setup I have the analog running through a Zektor MAS7.1 multi-channel switch, which allows me to use my BDP-83SE for 2-channel analog and/or 7.1 multi-channel analog. However, my Marantz SR7002 is handling blu-ray and DVD movies.


Willie

Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD

Zektor MAS7.1

Classé CA-2200/CA-5200

Oppo BDP-105, Denon DVD-5910CI, Cambridge 752BD, Cambridge 640C V2

Paradigm Signature S8, Paradigm Signature ADP1

Paradigm Signature ADP3, Paradigm Signature C5

REL R-505 Sub (2)

Oppo BDP-93, BDP-103D, Pioneer BDP-320

Sony BDP-S790

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post #210 of 1055 Old 06-15-2010, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanwescoat View Post

Well, hopefully several people on this forum who purchase the 2011 will tell us about their reference systems and what kind of difference if any they notice in sound quality from the analog outs and the HDMI.

I plan on getting one of these players when released, which I believe was listed as September.
I will be happy to report back on how the player performs on all outputs. And also if it plays VCD/SVCD/XSVCD, which by the way my Sony BDP-S550 does not, but my Pioneer Elite DV-48 does)

Ed

Denon AVR-X4000, Panasonic TCP-55VT50, OPPO BDP-103, DirecTV HR44-700, Apple TV
Polk Audio RTi-A9, RTi-A7, RTi-A3, CSi-A6 & DSW PRO 660
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