Official OPPO BDP-93 Owner's Thread - Page 583 - AVS Forum
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post #17461 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

Thanks slimoli, that is much clearer than neuro's comment (that's ok - he was answering a different kind of question anyways).

maxleung, I thought Neuromancer ultimately answered the same question the same way - I think he just feels the safer 'alternatve' to .ISO is to do drive:\\movie_title\\AVCHD\\BDMV way. Right now I started doing drive:\\movie_title\\BDMV (as wmcclain says, "naked" BDMV) but I'll try it under the AVCHD folder just so I'm comfortable with all alternatives if/when drive:\\movie_title\\BDMV goes away. I guess I'll have to ask the beta FW testers if drive:\\movie_title\\BDMV has gone away with each FW release before I decide to install the next FW...

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post #17462 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Bachelor View Post

Does this work with DLNA or do you have to have the hard drive hooked directly to the Oppo? I'm trying it over DLNA with no success.

AVCHD does not work over DLNA.

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post #17463 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

I've largely ignored the different options since ISO support came along, so is my understanding of the various alternatives to ISO playback correct?

Blu-ray
MKV - streaming via DLNA possible, but no lossless audio (DTS-HD MA & Dolby TrueHD)...

MKV is not the alternative to ISO for OPPO. For local USB/eSATA HDD. Because Oppo doesn't support FLACs and Dolby TrueHD in MKVs.
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post #17464 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 07:37 PM
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Oppo Facebook REALLY heating up...here's a very interesting post from them about adding the ISO in the first place:

Oppo support: And we are making a Blu-ray disc player. The ability to support ISO was added to the firmware internally to diagnose disc media playback, and was unintentionally left in the firmware when we released it to the public. As this feature did not degrade the performance of the player, we left it in there with successive firmware knowing that it may at one time be removed by studio or licensing protest. This is why ISO was never officially announced or supported.

The BDP-9x series of players is first and foremost a Universal Disc Player. Everything else is secondary. If we fail to do our primary objective as licensing is removed, or studios fail to support us, then the product no longer has relevance in the market, and our company no longer can exist.

We understand fully about the desire to keep ISO support, and you need to understand fully that we need to remain a company. We will not jeopardize this fact. Unfortunately this means that our brief support of ISO media has come to a close.
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post #17465 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moglia View Post

P.S. I do have on semi-good authority that a well known group is working on unofficial fix to at least one item Oppo has taken away from from us. We'll see come Spring if it's actually let loose in the wild......

I wondered if ISO playback wasn't something that could be added to a PRO mod chip firmware. Again, it surely wouldn't be a trivial task.
Really, I think your best bet is simply not to upgrade the firmware. How many other players out there NEVER have a firmware upgrade?
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post #17466 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by kokap View Post

MKV is not the alternative to ISO for OPPO. For local USB/eSATA HDD. Because Oppo doesn't support FLACs and Dolby TrueHD in MKVs.

err, isn't that what I said? I wasn't implying MKVs were the same as ISOs, only that it was one alternative if ISO's aren't supported. Without support for DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD codecs in MKV containers, it's not a viable option for me.

Also, if you have an audio Blu-ray, such as the Tom Petty or Pink Floyd BD's, you can rip the hi-rez audio tracks to FLAC and play them via the Oppo.
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post #17467 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottm18 View Post

Oppo Facebook REALLY heating up...here's a very interesting post from them about adding the ISO in the first place:

Oppo support: And we are making a Blu-ray disc player. The ability to support ISO was added to the firmware internally to diagnose disc media playback, and was unintentionally left in the firmware when we released it to the public. As this feature did not degrade the performance of the player, we left it in there with successive firmware knowing that it may at one time be removed by studio or licensing protest. This is why ISO was never officially announced or supported.

The BDP-9x series of players is first and foremost a Universal Disc Player. Everything else is secondary. If we fail to do our primary objective as licensing is removed, or studios fail to support us, then the product no longer has relevance in the market, and our company no longer can exist.

We understand fully about the desire to keep ISO support, and you need to understand fully that we need to remain a company. We will not jeopardize this fact. Unfortunately this means that our brief support of ISO media has come to a close.

Interesting but I don't believe too many people bought the Oppo just for the "Universal disk player" . Although I agree ISO has never been promised and actually came few months after release, its capacity to play different file formats and , in many cases, fully replace a media center, has been always a strong reason to justify the extra money. Even the hardcore Oppo fans here agree that a BD disk produces the same picture quality even on a 150 bucks player.

I love the player, will probably keep it for a long time but for me the media file support is what makes the player the best .

Very curious to see how the sales will react not only on the 93/95 nut also with future model.

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post #17468 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

Interesting but I don't believe too many people bought the Oppo just for the "Universal disk player".

Very curious to see how the sales will react not only on the 93/95 nut also with future model.

Most people use the Oppo for its intended purpose as a universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost. Look at all the reviews, do you see people overly fixated on playing ripped media? Nope, just that's its a great fast reliable player with few problems, and terrific support.

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post #17469 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Most people use the Oppo for its intended purpose as a universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost. Look at all the reviews, do you see people overly fixated on playing ripped media? Nope, just that's its a great fast reliable player with few problems, and terrific support.

That's your opinion. There are plenty of physical media players, at a substantially lower cost, that provide imperceptible PQ difference on the majority of home equipment.

The Oppo support and extras was what drew me to this player and its substantially higher price. My physical media needs (BD/SACD) could have been satiated by a plethora of under $200 players from Sony, et al.
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post #17470 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 08:58 PM
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Some people may have purchased the BDP-93 because of the unofficial support for ISO playback. It's unfortunate that it was removed but if that's why you purchased it then you can't really complain. It was never documented and it's been a worry that it might be removed at any time from the very beginning. You gambled and lost.

The BDA consists of a host of companies including Hollywood studios. Heck, look at the Board of Directors: http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/AboutB...Companies.aspx. If studios request the removal of the unofficial and officially undocumented feature of ISO support then it would be logical to assume that if Oppo ignored a request that they could then lose their license to produce a licensed Blu-ray player and with that I'd expect revocation of their AACS LA license. Oppo would be unable to sell a "licensed" Blu-Ray player and be unable to play any discs making use of AACS which is mandatory on all commercial Blu-ray discs. In short, Oppo would be ruined as a company who has a legacy of selling quality licensed DVD and Blu-ray players.

With the above being said anyone complaining about the removal of ISO support, how Oppo sucks for doing it, and/or how some people now say that they will never purchase another Oppo product the simple fact is that you are throwing a temper tantrum. The facts are the facts and refusing the request of the studios was simply insane and impossible.

Some people need to grow up and accept the realities of the situation. It's stinks that ISO support was removed but that's life.
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post #17471 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 09:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Kincaid View Post

With the above being said anyone complaining about the removal of ISO support, how Oppo sucks for doing it, and/or how some people now say that they will never purchase another Oppo product the simple fact is that you are throwing a temper tantrum.

The interesting part its only a few people, a lot of people who are very much into backing up physical media for usage on storage are constructive and understanding and just want to know how to migrate their stored collection to a workable state, now that ISO is being dropped by Oppo because "we are at the mercy of support from both the decoder manufacturer and content providers."

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post #17472 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 09:19 PM
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Maybe I should rephrase my original question;

Will the Oppo 93 give me an improved DVD Upconversion with a 50" Pioneer Elite Plasma that is 760p.

I am presently using a Pioneer 610AV which is Region Free but I can task the Pioneer elsewhere.

Improvements in SD-DVD playback performance are *DEFINITELY* visible on decent 760p and 768p class displays -- so long as the display itself is properly calibrated for video so that any such image improvements aren't masked by the display's own video calibration flaws. I recommend you send 1080p from the Oppo to the display.

Quality of SD video playback is all about maintaining perfection at every step of the video chain. Once the image is damaged, there's nothing that later hardware can do to fix that, no matter how expensive or sophisticated. The best you can do is try to mask the damage to make it less visible. But SD resolution content is unforgiving. Just about any defect you introduce will become visible (if you know what to look for). That's a major factor in favor of Blu-ray. Blu-ray is more forgiving -- less likely to show visible problems if the processing isn't perfect.

So for SD-DVDs it starts with the quality of the original master and transfer to disc. Bad transfers to discs will still look bad -- and as with every format, there are lots of crappy SD-DVDs that have been sold. But GOOD transfers, rendered well by the player, and handled properly by the display are just amazing. Most people have never, ever seen just how good SD-DVDs can look. You'll know you are there when your friends start marking comments like "Boy that Blu-ray sure looks great!" -- when you are actually playing an SD-DVD.

(I'm not saying that Blu-ray isn't better. I'm saying that qualty SD-DVDs, handled right, can look so good it fools the eye.)

I don't know enough about the 610AV to give you any useful comparison, but the SD-DVD playback performance of the Oppo 93 is very good indeed -- although I still prefer the output of the Oppo 83 which is phenomenal.

Keep in mind that if you buy the 93 from Oppo, they offer an easy, 30-day exchange so you can try it yourself with your display and know for sure what you are getting.

Do take the time to check your display's calibration using a good calibration disc such as "Spears & Munsil", Blu-ray. By the way, there are actually SD charts hidden on that Blu-ray in Title 127. While playing any of the HD charts, use the Go To button on the Oppo remote to select Title 127 and then Chapter Forward/Back to move between the charts. Use Top Menu to get back to the normal content on that disc.
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post #17473 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 09:42 PM
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Am I correct in understanding that AVCHD technically does not recognise Java menus? Rather than restrict AVCHD to a single root folder, I think it more likely that the studios would require removal of Java support from the current AVCHD implementation, if they wanted to make media file playback difficult. I have a Toshiba Bluray player that has "BDMV in AVCHD" playback support, but it won't play a Bluray rip, even if the only AVCHD folder.

With respect to M2TS playback, whilst this container can include video, audio and subtitle tracks, navigation is generally included in extraneous files for Bluray purposes. What navigation features does the Oppo support in playing standalone M2TS (eg chapter advance, subtitle, soundtrack selection) or does it simply select the first track of each type?

I note that mkv is not supported with HD audio on the Oppo: it seems like the studios have managed to compromise all media file playback methods in one way or another, to prevent them being used to playback copies of Bluray discs in full quality and/or with relative ease. I guess one could convert HD audio to multichannel LPCM, which would work in mkv, but at the cost of 2x or greater the soundtrack space occupied.
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post #17474 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Most people use the Oppo for its intended purpose as a universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost. Look at all the reviews, do you see people overly fixated on playing ripped media? Nope, just that's its a great fast reliable player with few problems, and terrific support.

I think you missed my point: People who are after a "universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost" are unlikely to spend 3 times more for something they get now with almost all the new players. The terrific support is very true but, again, who will pay the big premium just for it ?

I understand your position, being a beta-tester, to deffend Oppo as much as possible. I am actually a big fan of the player and very happy so far. Only reason why I posted my opinion is because I believe the future of Oppo depends on the "extras" and not the same plain vanilla found with any new modern player for less than 150 bucks. Nothing specific about ISO either, I never blamed Oppo for that on any of my posts.

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post #17475 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by moglia View Post

First no firmware rollback due to "netfix", now iso removal..."it's not Oppo's fault" has worn pretty friggin thin. Of course nothing is ever anybody fault in today's world is it, always an excuse :sigh - but seriously it is their fault. Just who makes and sell's the player??? Apparently it's Netflix and the "movie" studios. What will be removed next? BTW that's when not if! In addition the era of physical media transports is waning and Oppo bending over and taking in the proverbial keester from Netfix and the "Movie Studios" will only hasten their own demise. Not too smart of OPPO IMHO.

I'd also like to add that Oppo's statement on the iso feature not being documented makes it ok to remove is a steaming pile of crap.

Lastly my BDP-95 will the last Oppo player I ever purchase. I expected as much from other brands. Had they not pulled this BS I would have continued with the next model and so on but now it'll be all easily hacked dedicated media type servers for me now on.

P.S. I do have on semi-good authority that a well known group is working on unofficial fix to at least one item Oppo has taken away from from us. We'll see come Spring if it's actually let loose in the wild......

It is not Oppo's fault. Yes, they manufacture the player. They also have to adhere to the blu-ray standards if they want to continue to sell blu-ray players. All of the other companies selling blu-ray players are in the same boat. This is and has been common knowledge for a long, long time. The movie studios have Oppo and every other blu-ray manufacturer by the nuts.

Oppo could say *no* to removing ISO playback. But then their license to continue to produce blu-ray players would swiftly grind to a halt.
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post #17476 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slimoli View Post

I think you missed my point: People who are after a "universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost" are unlikely to spend 3 times more for something they get now with almost all the new players. The terrific support is very true but, again, who will pay the big premium just for it ?
I understand your position, being a beta-tester, to deffend Oppo as much as possible. I am actually a big fan of the player and very happy so far. Only reason why I posted my opinion is because I believe the future of Oppo depends on the "extras" and not the same plain vanilla found with any new modern player for less than 150 bucks. Nothing specific about ISO either, I never blamed Oppo for that on any of my posts.

I reread it, yep I get what you are saying now. My earlier post was misdirected. I agree that the future is very dependent on extra's, and then some.

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post #17477 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by bo130 View Post

It is not Oppo's fault. Yes, they manufacture the player. They also have to adhere to the blu-ray standards if they want to continue to sell blu-ray players. All of the other companies selling blu-ray players are in the same boat. This is and has been common knowledge for a long, long time. The movie studios have Oppo and every other blu-ray manufacturer by the nuts.

Oppo could say *no* to removing ISO playback. But then their license to continue to produce blu-ray players would swiftly grind to a halt.

Really? (about "All of the other companies selling blu-ray players are in the same boat")? Asus is manufacturing BD-players (ASUS O! Play BDS-700/500) which officially support ISO.
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post #17478 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by kokap View Post

Really? (about "All of the other companies selling blu-ray players are in the same boat")? Asus is manufacturing BD-players (ASUS O! Play BDS-700/500) which officially support ISO.

This is a overseas player, not sold in the states. See the thread.

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post #17479 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by IanD View Post

With respect to M2TS playback, whilst this container can include video, audio and subtitle tracks, navigation is generally included in extraneous files for Bluray purposes. What navigation features does the Oppo support in playing standalone M2TS (eg chapter advance, subtitle, soundtrack selection) or does it simply select the first track of each type?

Ian, except for chapter support, all features are supported with M2TS files: you can select the audio track and subtitle (and PGS subs look WAY better than srt subs) as you would for any other file, ie simply by pressing the relevant button.
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post #17480 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:49 PM
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Originally Posted by slimoli View Post


I think you missed my point: People who are after a "universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost" are unlikely to spend 3 times more for something they get now with almost all the new players. The terrific support is very true but, again, who will pay the big premium just for it ?

I understand your position, being a beta-tester, to deffend Oppo as much as possible. I am actually a big fan of the player and very happy so far. Only reason why I posted my opinion is because I believe the future of Oppo depends on the "extras" and not the same plain vanilla found with any new modern player for less than 150 bucks. Nothing specific about ISO either, I never blamed Oppo for that on any of my posts.

Actually, they are purchased for UNIVERSAL disc support. Nothing 1/3 the price fits the bill. No Sony plays DVD-A. Pioneer at $400. Yamaha and Denon $500. Buying something based on unsupported features is foolish - they can be removed at any time for any reason. They are UNSUPPORTED.
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post #17481 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by SeriousHorse View Post

Ian, except for chapter support, all features are supported with M2TS files: you can select the audio track and subtitle (and PGS subs look WAY better than srt subs) as you would for any other file, ie simply by pressing the relevant button.

That's better than I thought it would be, although I am guessing that embedded video (for PIP) is not supported.

So, theoretically, one could still play the majority of a title and its extras via M2TS, if stored in AVCHD folder format, even if AVCHD (Bluray) capability was removed. Although I am also guessing that the obscure subtitles that are contained in other files and linked to an M2TS would not be accessible via M2TS playback and seamlessly branched M2TS would be a pain without merging into a single M2TS with available tools.
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post #17482 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by jidelite View Post

maxleung, I thought Neuromancer ultimately answered the same question the same way - I think he just feels the safer 'alternatve' to .ISO is to do drive:\\movie_title\\AVCHD\\BDMV way. Right now I started doing drive:\\movie_title\\BDMV (as wmcclain says, "naked" BDMV)

There was no way for me to tell if "naked" BDMV refers to the root of the drive, or as a subdirectory within a movie directory - I don't think "naked" BDMV is a standardized term outside of this thread.

(yeah yeah I'm being pedantic - but when you deal with computing equipment all day, I have to be! It's a $500 risk I am taking - if I can't play my rips then I might as well get a $100 DLNA Blu-ray player and get most of the same features! )

Thanks for the discussion - I may have to reconsider a purchase with this new development - in the last couple of months I've seen announcements of new players with DLNA and file streaming - even TVs!
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post #17483 of 26957 Old 01-24-2012, 11:46 PM
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There was an interesting exchange in the Oppo FaceBook discussion this evening regarding European support for ISO playback.

Several European posters have asserted that, by law, Europeans pay an extra "tax" on hard drive purchases which is supposed to legalize "format shifting". I have no idea whether that is true, nor whether it is controlling law in this specific situation.

The responders from Oppo Digital (in the US) have pointed out that Oppo UK inherits changes, like this disabling of ISO stuff, in the base firmware code that first ships in the US, but that Oppo UK controls their own firmware and can make changes as appropriate.

In other words, if there really is legal justification that would allow Oppo UK to re-enable ISO playback, the people who can act on that info are in Oppo UK (contact info available on their web site).

It is not unheard of for local laws to trump Hollywood paranoia. For example there are some areas of the world where players can not block SD-DVD playback due to out of area region coding (although Blu-ray region coding is still enforced). It is important to note that the studios wrote much more onerous terms into the Blu-ray licenses -- including additional restrictions on what Blu-ray players are allowed to do for SD-DVD playback that are NOT present in the licenses for SD-DVD players! So it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the legal status of any such European initiative is still in doubt, even if those posters are reporting the situation accurately. It could be, for example, that users are allowed to do it, but that makers of licensed Blu-ray players are not allowed to enable it (and yes, there is an inherent contradiction in that, but the law is sometimes "a ass"). I just don't know.

It may be a long shot, but you European users should stay tuned to see what transpires.

Unfortunately, I don't think any such escape clause applies in the US.
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post #17484 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 02:39 AM
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Several European posters have asserted that, by law, Europeans pay an extra "tax" on hard drive purchases which is supposed to legalize "format shifting". I have no idea whether that is true, nor whether it is controlling law in this specific situation.

While there are levies on blank media (DVD-R, etc), MP3 players and recorders of all sorts, compensating the rightholders for private copies that are allowed by law, the national situation differs a lot with hard drives, as those are used for many purposes and not predominantly for copying music or films.

In any event, paying a levy for private copying does not give the right to copy everything. Like US law, european law prohibits circumventing copyprotection. So copying a commercial movie DVD or Blu-ray (usually being copyprotected) is not allowed, although many people do it.

There is simply no way copyright law can be used to force Oppo to implement ISO playback. On the other hand, ISO playback cannot be considered illegal either, because it's not the Oppo player that copies the disc. What forced Oppo to drop ISO playback was the Blu-ray license, which is a private contract that can contain the strangest clauses, if the parties agree on them and they are are not illegal.
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post #17485 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 03:15 AM
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^ That's the nub of it then. Is it illegal to prohibit by end user license or by contract with a 3rd party the copying and playing of previously purchased, copy protected content for personal use, given the compensation already going to the rights holders out of the surcharge put on media?

I.E., is the license restriction enforceable in Europe?

I don't know what the status of that question is under European law. It's the personal use part that might make the difference. That is, copying or distributing copies for use by others, whether or not for pay, might still be prohibited.

Anyway, it's useless to speculate here. I'm sure OPPO UK will get competent legal advice, and act accordingly.
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post #17486 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 03:19 AM
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Whatever happened to Fair Use?
Fair Use was the ruling that allowed people to copy with VCRs.
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post #17487 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 03:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Whatever happened to Fair Use?
Fair Use was the ruling that allowed people to copy with VCRs.

I think the studios are making a mistake by not allowing a legitimate means for owners of the disk to play from a hdd.
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post #17488 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 04:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ That's the nub of it then. Is it illegal to prohibit by end user license or by contract with a 3rd party the copying and playing of previously purchased, copy protected content for personal use, given the compensation already going to the rights holders out of the surcharge put on media?

I.E., is the license restriction enforceable in Europe?

There is no such thing as a end user license for movies and music, unlike software. What the purchaser of a Blu-ray and CD can do with it and what the rightholder can prohibit is determined by law (the extent of the exclusive right and it's exceptions)

In most european laws, there is the right to make a copy of a movie or music disc for personal use. But does not mean the manufacturer must make the discs copyable. If he implements copyprotection, there is no legal way around it. The buyer is authorized to copy a non-protected disc, but there is no enforceable right for the buyer to make copies of his discs.
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post #17489 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 05:57 AM
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People who are after a "universal networked 3D BD player first and foremost" are unlikely to spend 3 times more for something they get now with almost all the new players.

Can you tell me of any universal, networked, 3D BD player that is 1/3rd the cost of the Oppo let alone almost all?
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post #17490 of 26957 Old 01-25-2012, 06:30 AM
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Look, I know everyone's venting and I'm also guilty of a few ranting posts. The fact is, there's nothing we can do. Instead, maybe we can try to find a solution to "filling in the blanks" that .iso support will leave.

Menu Support - There had been talk a few years ago of .mkv's supporting menu's. Anyone know if that's been added to the .mkv spec?

Audio / PGS Subtitles support - If we can have support for all audio formats and PGS subtitles added to .mkv's, people who copy "movie only" will be able to have an exact copy of the original in .mkv form. There's already support for this in .m2ts files, but it would be nice to have them in .mkv as well.

3D support in a container other than .iso - If someone could find ANY alternative to .iso for 3D playback, maybe Oppo could add support for it.

As long as Oppo can work to support these three things, we really won't need .iso support. We'd loose some extra stuff, but the ability to watch a full quality movie with menus would be there and that's what 99% of us need. Let's see if we can help Oppo help us.
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