Official OPPO BDP-95 Owner's Thread - Page 16 - AVS Forum
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post #451 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:02 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post

But back to the Oppo's mishandling... There is another further problem in the gain stage of the Oppo. The compilation disc I made to test the Denon 5910 and Oppo BDP95 has 26 songs on it, some non hdcd material, and a mix of hdcd material from 4 different albums. Only 2 of those hdcd discs appear to have been authored with peak extend- only those tracks are played at 6db lower than the rest of the tracks on the disc I made. A track from one of these PE hdcd encoded discs (and the only track i selected from that particular PE hdcd album) plays through at the expected incorrect -6db level, but the NEXT non hdcd track plays back at +6db! The Oppo, for some reason, increases the gain by 12db for the next song (and for the all the following songs, I believe).
This behavior only happens when the hdcd track is played from the start and playback continues to the next track. If I skip back to the beginning of the non hdcd track (as it is playing +6db), it will correctly restart at 0db.
The volume of the Oppo, as displayed on my television, reads as "100." That doesn't change despite the difference in playback levels between the tracks.
So I guess the problem lies in the software; I somehow doubt that Oppo tried to implement the gain reduction in the analog output side of the player.

Get a copy of your compilation disc to Oppo tech support and they can take a look at it to see what's up.

Sounds to me like the problem is switching between HDCD and non-HDCD content on the same disc, but they'll be able to check and see.
--Bob

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post #452 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by rebop View Post

Updates:

Working through my bass issues using some suggestions found here and other threads by Bob P. Biggest culprit was, as mentioned, the internal tones on the 95. Using several tweak discs now and results much better and more consistent across different types of programs. Made it a little confusing with levels on the 95, processor, BFD and sub itself. But I should have this sorted this week.

Glad to hear you are closing in on a good solution!

If you've got specifics of the problems you are having with the bass test tone from the Oppo, please do email the info to Oppo tech support so they can look into it.
--Bob

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post #453 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:05 AM
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I am getting 1080p/24 avr on some blu rays while hdmi is set to bit.
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post #454 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:09 AM
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Hometheaterhifi.com also mentioned that both players, the 93 and 95 sounded so good through their analog connections that he "a professional with awesome sound equipment" could not hear a difference! Makes me wonder if the 95 is worth $500 more dollars with its possible fan noise that could be detectable to even the average users ears?
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post #455 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Hi jf. I respect your years and don't doubt your experience of hearing what you hear. My post was meant to provide
a. a rational explanation for the fact that some people "might" [/i]experience "break-in" of ss electronics and
b. a scientific way to establish whether the perceived changes are in such gear or the subject's brain. This is AVScience Forum.

I realize that we are going further OT, so we can take this up in another thread, perhaps here, as I'm interested in the topic of subjective audiophile phenomena.

That being said, more detail and specifics about your experiments and the control protocols you instituted is needed, if you are indeed interested in the coveted SoundofMind Blind Listening Test Cookie Award.

Thanks for your response, Soundof. I don't have an interest in continuing the discussion. There a lot of sites at which audiophiles discuss various topics, however. I'm sure you will find discussions about these issues if you do searches for them. If you haven't already done this, that is. You might start with audioasylum.com and audiogon.com
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post #456 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:16 AM
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"I also listened to many of my favorite CDs, using the stereo XLR outputs from the BDP-95, and I have never heard a better quality sound. The noise and distortion characteristics of both players are so low, frankly, I could not hear a difference between the two players, but others, with younger ears than mine, probably would be able to detect, perhaps, slightly better detail using the BDP-95".
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post #457 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by yuppi View Post

Hi Roger,

I just order a BDP-95, How about your OPPO 95 compared to a Marantz SA11S2 and a Accuphase 75 now?

I plan to let the BDP-95 age a little longer before doing any more comparisons. I am still checking out various discs on the 95.

Will report later on new comparisons.
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post #458 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Roger Mathus View Post

I plan to let the BDP-95 age a little longer before doing any more comparisons. I am still checking out various discs on the 95.

Will report later on new comparisons.

Roger,

Thanks a lot.^^
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post #459 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by jfz View Post

Thanks for your response, Soundof. I don't have an interest in continuing the discussion. There a lot of sites at which audiophiles discuss various topics, however. I'm sure you will find discussions about these issues if you do searches for them. If you haven't already done this, that is. You might start with audioasylum.com and audiogon.com

It is bothersome to utilize controls and standardize protocols, and unfortunately many "audiophiles" don't bother. As this is AVScience forums I would hope discussion of such psychoacoustic phenomena would be of interest. There are increasing references on this thread to break-in effect (even irt interconnects?!).

I still hope that with all the new 95s being shipped out and carefully being listened to, someone has the opportunity to do a blind comparison of a "broken in" 95 to a brand new one. I am not prejudging outcome, just interested in the protocol and the data. "Mrs. SoundofMind" is fully prepared to don the apron and mix up a batch of cookies.

Yes, I still like playing with Dalis.

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post #460 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:08 AM
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http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...html?showall=1

GREAT REVIEW

"I also listened to music using the analog connections rather than HDMI, which has significant jitter issues."

Hum interesting, I can't hear that my Classé SSP-800 must be taking care of that!

"Want another surprising result. IMD for the 93 was 0.006% - and keep in mind this is a $499 player - while in the 95, it was 0.0006%. No visible B-A peaks at 1 kHz. Hey guys, the test results are beginning to reach the limits of detectability for my $26,000 Audio Precision. At $999 for the BDP-95, I cannot come up with an adjective to describe the performance - value this product represents. And the BDP-93 is no slouch, at $499."


If it does not translate into better sound why spend twice the money?

"I also listened to many of my favorite CDs, using the stereo XLR outputs from the BDP-95, and I have never heard a better quality sound. The noise and distortion characteristics of both players are so low, frankly, I could not hear a difference between the two players, but others, with younger ears than mine, probably would be able to detect, perhaps, slightly better detail using the BDP-95."

I guess no need to buy the BDP-95 if we can't hear the difference

Conclusions

"Both the OPPO BDP-93 and BDP-95 represent two of the very best Universal Blu-ray players on the market, and especially the BDP-95's audio performance is nothing short of superb, posting some audio measurements that were below the limits of detectability by the standard bench test instrument in the industry. We now await the video test data."

Here is the question why buy the BDP-95 if the 93 is so good??

I can see one reason as described in the article:

"with standard Redbook CD tests. At 1 kHz, the 93 had 0.013% THD+N, while the 95 - in the second graph using the RCA output rather than the balanced output - had 0.004% distortion. The third graph is the 95 using the balanced XLR output, and all subsequent graphs for the 95 also use the XLR output. Distortion was the same as with the RCA unbalanced output: 0.004%. However, the XLR output delivered twice the voltage. What this means is that you will be able to turn the volume control down, and this will result in less overall noise."

For me it also looks much nicer and better built
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post #461 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...html?showall=1

"I also listened to music using the analog connections rather than HDMI, which has significant jitter issues." Hum interesting, I can't hear that my Classé SSP-800 must be taking care of that!
Discussed above. It was apparently a throw-away comment -- i.e., let's concentrate on analog to avoid the discussion/complication of HDMI. His one reported measurement of Jitter (on Coax) came out fine. By the way, I have the same good result with HDMI audio into my Anthem Statement D2v.
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post #462 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:16 AM
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I'm using the XLR outputs of the BDP-95.

I decided to try a different, and less expensive XLR cable, instead of the initial more expensive cable I had in place. I wanted to see if the Oppo's sound changed with a change to different XLR cables.
This less expensive cables ($125 , if i remember), sounded considerably worse than the initial set of cables. The resolution became blurred, less crisp, and I couldn't hear as deep into the music.
With the first set of cables, the BDP-95 displays a level of resolution I have NEVER HEARD before from a digital player.
As I am comparing the BDP-95 to my Denon 5910, this change is not imagined because i have a benchmark to make the comparison against.

My point is simply that this player has unbelievable resolution, and if you aren't hearing it, there is a chance your cables are not up to the task. Quality audiophile cables are not wasted on the Oppo.
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post #463 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post
Thanks for the attachments. Some interesting stuff was in there!

When I power on the Denon, and put in any type of cd, there is a click after the player reads the disc and decides what kind of media has been inserted (At least that's how I interpret it!). There is a second click when I press play.
This second click ONLY happens for the very first disc that is put in the player, regardless of what kind of cd is inserted. For other cd's inserted while the player is powered on, there are no clicks to be heard.
I always wondered what that clicking was!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that the Oppo indadvertedly has the advantage in that there is no loss of the last bit of resolution because of their failure to implement gain stage adjustment? The theoretical downside would be when I make a play a burned cd with a mix of hdcd PE tracks and non PE or hdcd tracks (just about never unless i'm comparing players like I have been this weekend).

But back to the Oppo's mishandling... There is another further problem in the gain stage of the Oppo. The compilation disc I made to test the Denon 5910 and Oppo BDP95 has 26 songs on it, some non hdcd material, and a mix of hdcd material from 4 different albums. Only 2 of those hdcd discs appear to have been authored with peak extend- only those tracks are played at 6db lower than the rest of the tracks on the disc I made. A track from one of these PE hdcd encoded discs (and the only track i selected from that particular PE hdcd album) plays through at the expected incorrect -6db level, but the NEXT non hdcd track plays back at +6db! The Oppo, for some reason, increases the gain by 12db for the next song (and for the all the following songs, I believe).
This behavior only happens when the hdcd track is played from the start and playback continues to the next track. If I skip back to the beginning of the non hdcd track (as it is playing +6db), it will correctly restart at 0db.
The volume of the Oppo, as displayed on my television, reads as "100." That doesn't change despite the difference in playback levels between the tracks.
So I guess the problem lies in the software; I somehow doubt that Oppo tried to implement the gain reduction in the analog output side of the player.

I am not sure how the gain scaling works in the Oppo. I am not sure that if done in software, gain scaling loses 1 bit. The other papers were written I believe when there were only HDCD hardware chips. I know only enough here to be dangerous.

It seems to me the Oppo is gain scaling everything down 6dB so it would be losing 1 bit on everything. It is only when not scaled that the 1 bit is not lost.

I doubt that the Oppo is analog scaling. When I spoke with Oppo about the 980H, there was a reply that the algorithm was in the Mediatek chip which I imagine it still is.

I did notice on my compilation disc on the 980H that the first song on the disc was peak extended and that the 980H seemed to first start out with the level right and then drop it down. This seemed strange to me until just now when I thought that the 980H also plays DVD's. I was thinking if it drops all CD's 6 db, why would I ever hear something like this. I do not know. This was long ago and I eventually gave up on getting the issue corrected.

Hopefully it will get corrected this time.

I am pretty sure the volume level displayed will not reflect anything going on with HDCD.

I think it would have been better to leave out the forced gain scaling stuff. I do not like that my NAD loses 1 bit of resolution on everything except peak extend. The chip is capable of analog gain scaling, but its default state is gain scale. Meaning it would be very hard to set it to analog gain scaling so that I would not lose that bit. It takes internal registers being set every time the chip is fired up to set it to analog gain scaling.
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post #464 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

No, that's a long-standing problem with the Mediatek decoder chips. Files are presented in a raw directory order, probably the order in which they were created.

DLNA has an advantage here in that sorting is handled by the server.

OPPO has said they will work on it, but it wouldn't hurt to make your needs known to them.

-Bill

Done. Notified them of the issue through email. Makes listening to live shows totally unusable.

~Bob
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post #465 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post

Thanks for the attachments. Some interesting stuff was in there!

When I power on the Denon, and put in any type of cd, there is a click after the player reads the disc and decides what kind of media has been inserted (At least that's how I interpret it!). There is a second click when I press play.
This second click ONLY happens for the very first disc that is put in the player, regardless of what kind of cd is inserted. For other cd's inserted while the player is powered on, there are no clicks to be heard.
I always wondered what that clicking was!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it possible that the Oppo indadvertedly has the advantage in that there is no loss of the last bit of resolution because of their failure to implement gain stage adjustment? The theoretical downside would be when I make a play a burned cd with a mix of hdcd PE tracks and non PE or hdcd tracks (just about never unless i'm comparing players like I have been this weekend).

But back to the Oppo's mishandling... There is another further problem in the gain stage of the Oppo. The compilation disc I made to test the Denon 5910 and Oppo BDP95 has 26 songs on it, some non hdcd material, and a mix of hdcd material from 4 different albums. Only 2 of those hdcd discs appear to have been authored with peak extend- only those tracks are played at 6db lower than the rest of the tracks on the disc I made. A track from one of these PE hdcd encoded discs (and the only track i selected from that particular PE hdcd album) plays through at the expected incorrect -6db level, but the NEXT non hdcd track plays back at +6db! The Oppo, for some reason, increases the gain by 12db for the next song (and for the all the following songs, I believe).
This behavior only happens when the hdcd track is played from the start and playback continues to the next track. If I skip back to the beginning of the non hdcd track (as it is playing +6db), it will correctly restart at 0db.
The volume of the Oppo, as displayed on my television, reads as "100." That doesn't change despite the difference in playback levels between the tracks.
So I guess the problem lies in the software; I somehow doubt that Oppo tried to implement the gain reduction in the analog output side of the player.


I am not sure how the gain scaling works in the Oppo. I am not sure that if done in software, gain scaling loses 1 bit. The other papers were written I believe when there were only HDCD hardware chips. I know only enough here to be dangerous.

It seems to me the Oppo is gain scaling everything down 6dB so it would be losing 1 bit on everything. It is only when not scaled that the 1 bit is not lost.

I doubt that the Oppo is analog scaling. When I spoke with Oppo about the 980H, there was a reply that the algorithm was in the Mediatek chip which I imagine it still is.

I did notice on my compilation disc on the 980H that the first song on the disc was peak extended and that the 980H seemed to first start out with the level right and then drop it down. This seemed strange to me until just now when I thought that the 980H also plays DVD's. I was thinking if it drops all CD's 6 db, why would I ever hear something like this. I do not know. This was long ago and I eventually gave up on getting the issue corrected.

Hopefully it will get corrected this time.

I am pretty sure the volume level displayed will not reflect anything going on with HDCD.

I think it would have been better to leave out the forced gain scaling stuff. I do not like that my NAD loses 1 bit of resolution on everything except peak extend. The chip is capable of analog gain scaling, but its default state is gain scale. Meaning it would be very hard to set it to analog gain scaling so that I would not lose that bit. It takes internal registers being set every time the chip is fired up to set it to analog gain scaling.
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post #466 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Glad to hear you are closing in on a good solution!

If you've got specifics of the problems you are having with the bass test tone from the Oppo, please do email the info to Oppo tech support so they can look into it.
--Bob
I did Bob and they agree the tone levels are inaccurate and are working on a fix. Glad to know it really is an issue and not something I had done incorrectly.

~Bob
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post #467 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:55 AM
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Why not digital inputs so you can take advantage of the DAC?

even my Denon CD player has digital inputs so you can take advantage of the DAC.

what gives?

I would like to use the PCM stereo digital output of my cable box and run it through the DAC in the BDP95

How about a MOD ?
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post #468 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by rebop View Post
Done. Notified them of the issue through email. Makes listening to live shows totally unusable.
If you are using FAT file systems, there are utilities to sort the directories into correct order after they are created. See Why are media file names not sorted alphabetically?

I don't know about NTFS.

For optical media, I recall the linux docs on the utility that makes ISO images mention a parameter file for file ordering, but I have not experimented with it.

-Bill
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post #469 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by rnrmf1971 View Post
I'm using the XLR outputs of the BDP-95.

I decided to try a different, and less expensive XLR cable, instead of the initial more expensive cable I had in place. I wanted to see if the Oppo's sound changed with a change to different XLR cables.
This less expensive cables ($125 , if i remember), sounded considerably worse than the initial set of cables. The resolution became blurred, less crisp, and I couldn't hear as deep into the music.
With the first set of cables, the BDP-95 displays a level of resolution I have NEVER HEARD before from a digital player.
As I am comparing the BDP-95 to my Denon 5910, this change is not imagined because i have a benchmark to make the comparison against.

My point is simply that this player has unbelievable resolution, and if you aren't hearing it, there is a chance your cables are not up to the task. Quality audiophile cables are not wasted on the Oppo.
The cable oil I am using Mogami XLR cables is that good enough or do we need

http://www.kimber.com/products/inter...lanced/ks1136/ at $1695 for .5 m

Or simply you can do this if you are so inclined

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm
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post #470 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by cvictorg View Post
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...e.html?start=1

Both the OPPO BDP-93 and BDP-95 represent two of the very best Universal Blu-ray players on the market, and especially the BDP-95's audio performance is nothing short of superb, posting some audio measurements that were below the limits of detectability by the standard bench test instrument in the industry. We now await the video test data.
Serious 95 envy ...! I quote:

"...Both the OPPO BDP-93 and BDP-95 represent two of the very best Universal Blu-ray players on the market, and especially the BDP-95's audio performance is nothing short of superb, posting some audio measurements that were below the limits of detectability by the standard bench test instrument in the industry..."

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #471 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

His one reported measurement of Jitter (on Coax) came out fine. By the way, I have the same good result with HDMI audio into my Anthem Statement D2v.
--Bob

Sure, but (other things being equal) don't you find the D2v sounds better when you use an spdif input instead of HDMI?

Nick
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post #472 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 01:37 PM
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Sure, but (other things being equal) don't you find the D2v sounds better when you use an spdif input instead of HDMI?

Nick

I will try stereo with

- HDMi

- Coax

- Optical

- XLR

and let you know what I find
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post #473 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:14 PM
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Sure, but (other things being equal) don't you find the D2v sounds better when you use an spdif input instead of HDMI?

Nick

Nope.
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post #474 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:17 PM
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The cable oil I am using Mogami XLR cables is that good enough or do we need

http://www.kimber.com/products/inter...lanced/ks1136/ at $1695 for .5 m

Or simply you can do this if you are so inclined

http://www.laventure.net/tourist/cables.htm

Ha! Cable talk raising eyebrows! I knew it! I don't know about the kimbers! I resist thinking that cables of said price can bring about more resolution than I currently hear.

That said, the difference in my system between these 2 cables (good cables until i heard the one I'm currently using )
http://www.bettercables.com/xlr-bala...ct-cables.aspx
http://signalcable.com/silverresolutionxlr.html

and this one: http://www.audiosold.com/ma4reference.htm
are night and day. The Morrow has significant clarity and resolution above the other two. I can't imagine it getting any better.

When I put the Better Cables XLR in place on the Oppo, resolution dropped, and fine details blurred, just about to the Denon 5910 level. But when I put the Morrow XLR cables back in, the resolution and detail returned and brought the Oppo above the Denon with respect to resolution and detail.

If it's all cable oil, i'll take 3 large bottles, please.
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post #475 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:36 PM
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Connection Question

I am using HDMI 1 to a TV set and analog 2 ch stereo to a amp. When I set the HDMI audio output selection to OFF in set up I still get audio out to the TV via the HDMI cable. Also, when playing an SACD, the monitor shows PCM even when I choose DSD.

Anyone have an explanation for this.
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post #476 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:39 PM
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What in the heck kinda components and speakers do you have to have to hear such stupendous differences between cables?
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post #477 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:40 PM
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I had posted earlier (yesterday?) that the Oppo would increase the gain by 12 db (going from -6 to +6) after a particular hdcd track on a test compilation i made to evaluate the player vs. the Denon 5910.
I found today, that the Denon actually has the problem in this particular instance. The Denon lowers it's output 6db on the non-hdcd track following the hdcd track in question. That made it appear that the Oppo was increasing 12db, when in fact, it was just going back to it's normal output level. The Oppo was only increasing the expected 6db.

So there is no further problem with the Oppo; just the known issue that the Oppo doesn't do gain stage leveling for hdcd and non-hdcd media. The Oppo lowers the apparent output of all peak extend authored hdcd media by 6db. Non peak extend hdcd authored discs and non hdcd authored discs appear sound 6db louder.
The only way you'd notice this would be if you burn a cdr of hdcd and non hdcd material, or possibly if you stream audio from a hard drive. I haven't tried streaming, and don't plan to, but it would be another possible scenario where the level difference would be noticeable, assuming that hdcd can be decoded by the Oppo in that situation.

I deleted the part of my earlier post where I erred in describing what was happening.
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post #478 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa_M View Post

The 95 is better in every way, but it is more demanding on the rest of the system.
Now, in my opinion, the 83SE is only worth $500 to $600.
Sa

If that! I mean who would want a crappy non3D player with rave reviews and audio numbers like this:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...r.html?start=1

vs

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...e.html?start=3

Personally, I think they the 83SE, 83NE, 93, and 95 are technically beyond reproach on the audio side. To be fair, I haven't heard a 9X player, yet, so I'm just going off the specs and early comments (thanks all). And certainly kudos & thanks to Oppo for putting up another set of world class specs at very reasonable prices!

I do hope, now that the 3D itch has been scratched, Oppo will spend more time on ease of use. No illusions it will happen on the 83 side, but if people are really going to listen to large collections of AV material on their Oppos, that DLNA interface has got to be improved. But when it is... I'll pawn my POS 83SE off on some wanna be audiophile and do the "I gotta 95" penalty inducing touch-down dance

Congrats to all you 95 owners!

Styln

PS Oppo - silver faceplate/button option?
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post #479 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Mathus View Post

Connection Question

I am using HDMI 1 to a TV set and coaxial 2 ch stereo to a amp. When I set the HDMI audio output selection to OFF in set up I still get audio out to the TV via the HDMI cable. Also, when playing an SACD, the monitor shows PCM even when I choose DSD.

Anyone have an explanation for this.

After you set the HDMI Audio OFF setting, or the "Video Only" setting on HDMI 1 (whichever setting you are using), exit Setup and power-cycle the player. It may simply be that this setting isn't taking effect properly at the time you make it. The settings are saved during the power down, which should fix this if in fact this is what is happening.

To get DSD you can not have an active HDMI connection (either output) to a device that does not itself accept HDMI DSD audio input. Simply turning off audio on the HDMI cable is not sufficient. Try switching your display to a different input so that the HDMI connection to it is no longer active. That should get DSD going for you. You'll know you have DSD if the SACD light is on in the front panel display and the PCM light is off.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
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post #480 of 11146 Old 02-07-2011, 03:07 PM
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XLR is the best in my system.
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