Official OPPO BDP-95 Owner's Thread - Page 273 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #8161 of 11189 Old 03-31-2012, 05:32 PM
Advanced Member
 
Talk2Me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Marin,CA./ Burton, OH
Posts: 506
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Blue Coast has a hi-res download sale on now for $.01. Yes you read that right.
Talk2Me is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #8162 of 11189 Old 03-31-2012, 11:50 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by scheong View Post

My BDP-95 is on the latest official firmware (BDP9x-65-0302). HDMI Audio is set to LPCM. SACD Output is set to PCM. I have a 5.1 speaker setup and the BDP-95 is connected to an Anthem AVM50v via HDMI.

Playing tracks 43-48 of the SACD "Stay in Tune with PentaTone" with the 50v volume at -16.5db, I measured the following speaker sound levels with a SPL meter.
LF - 60db, C - 60db, RF - 60db, LS - 61db, RS - 61db, Sub - 68db (fluctuates between 67-69)

Playing the 5.1 LPCM speaker balance tones on the AIX Audio Calibration Disc (Blu-ray) with the 50v volume at -24db, I measured the following speaker sound levels.
LF - 60db, C - 60db, RF - 60db, LS - 61db, RS - 61db, Sub - 63db (fluctuates between 67-69)

I will forward this info to Oppo to see if this is a bug.

Hi Stanley,

Back home now, so I ran some tests tonight on 4 different test discs plus the internal cal tones for ref. All measured with Radio Shack SPL meter C-wtd slow. BDP-93 feeding HDMI bitstreams (except PCM for SACD).



Here is what I notice about the PentaTone disc. It is as they stated:

Quote:


The level of the subwoofer tone is calibrated so that you should read the same level on a sound pressure meter set to the C weighting scale. (NOTE: The SA-CD standard needs no boost in the LFE channel, in contrast to the 10dB boost required by Dolby Digital.

Which is as Bob commented: >>That is, their SACD LFE test tone is on disc at 0dB compared to the other speaker channels.<<

In my system the LFE gets boosted by 10 dB, so it should read 10 dB higher than the main channels, and indeed it does. Also note that the Explore World and THX Optimizer tones are made with their LFE signals 10 dB lower than the mains so as to shoot for the same SPL overall, and indeed that is how they read. The few dB difference between these two discs is due to use of different spectra in the LFE channel test signals.

The AIX disc is recorded 10 dB louder than the others, and happily, coincidentally, interestingly, the LFE level reads 2-3 dB higher than the mains, just as did the THX signals.

One other thing this confirms is that the Oppo does not do any -10 dB gain shifting of the LFE when playing SACDs. There was some talk of that a while ago.

Conclusion: I see no bug.

I think the reason you do not see the same 10 dB difference between AIX and PentaTone that I do is because our subwoofers have different frequency responses. You did read almost 9 dB increase in the LFE signal on the PentaTone disc, so that's pretty much dead on as expected. The AIX reads high probably because of this wideband issue already discussed. If you have a chance to try a THX disc, that may prove enlightening.

ETA: Added Ratatouille, fixed PentaTone levels.
LL
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8163 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 12:20 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Roger,
Something is not right. The OPPO is SUPPOSED to drop the SACD LFE -10dB, so that the SAME +10dB your system applies to other LFE input will ALSO work for SACD LFE. The whole idea is to keep the user from having to change the LFE boost just because they are playing an SACD.

ETA: Please confirm you used tracks 43-48 from PentaTone and NOT the Channel ID tracks earlier on that disc. The LFE in the Channel ID tracks is an additional +10dB hotter.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8164 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 01:27 AM
Member
 
scheong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Roger,

I got a hold of the Ratatouille Bluray and used that disc's setup speaker balance tones. Is this the THX Optimzer you are referring to?

With the 50v volume at -19db, I got these measurements with a Radio Shack digital SPL meter.

LF - 60db, C - 60db, RF - 60db, LS - 61db, RS - 61db, Sub - 65db (fluctuates between 64-66)

Seems like our relative measurement between the mains and sub with the AIX and THX Optimizer are the same.

Stanley
scheong is offline  
post #8165 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 09:03 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,416
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Hmm, I think you need to raise the ceiling 6 inches. And move the fireplace from THAT wall to THAT wall.

But you'll still only get the stereophonic effect if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard....

(Flanders & Swann, "A Song of Reproduction")
--Bob

And you'll still get flutter on the bottom.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #8166 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 09:09 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ You say that as if it is a bad thing?
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8167 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 09:22 AM
AVS Addicted Member
 
Kal Rubinson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC + Connecticut
Posts: 28,416
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ You say that as if it is a bad thing?
--Bob

Flanders and Swann said that. I couldn't possibly comment.

Kal Rubinson

"Music in the Round"
Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
http://www.stereophile.com/category/music-round

Kal Rubinson is offline  
post #8168 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 09:38 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Roger,
There is no mystery in the AIX results as far as I can see in my system. But there IS a mystery in the PentaTone results. You need some background:

The solution built by Anthem Room Correction (ARC) for my room, and as executed in my Anthem Statement D2v, incorporates +3.5dB of Room Gain. ARC attempts to measure the Room Gain inherent in the listening room and, by default, preserves that as a "desirable" room response characteristic. In my case, the number found by ARC was roughly +3.7dB, and I rounded that down to precisely +3.5dB as a number easier to remember. You can see this exact amount of bass lift built into the solution in the charts that ARC provides.

When I play the AIX LPCM test track and adjust main Volume so that the fronts show 67dB SPL (Radio Shack digital readout SPL meter set to the 70dB range. "C" weighting, and "Slow" response), then the AIX LFE track reads between 70-71dB SPL -- PRECISELY where it should be.

(I chose this Volume level so that the "correct" result is right in the middle of the 70dB range setting for this meter -- for maximum meter accuracy.)

Furthermore, with ARC you can build a solution with more or less Room Gain -- down to 0dB and up to whatever limit point you reach in the ability of the unit to add boost. If you DO that, the delta between the AIX fronts SPL and the AIX LFE SPL changes the same amount.

So there is no mystery in the AIX result I measure. I know precisely where the 3-4dB increase in LFE SPL is coming from in my setup, with a high degree of certainty.

---------------------------------------

Now, when I run the test with the PentaTone tracks 43-48, and again adjust main Volume so that the fronts are at 67dB SPL -- as you noted that requires an increase in main Volume compared to the AIX track -- the SACD LFE level measures 74-75dB SPL (tending more towards 75).

That's +4 to +5dB higher than it should be. The delta of interest here is not the change from 67 to 75dB SPL. We already know to EXPECT +3.5dB SPL increase in the LFE output due to the implementation of Room Gain in the ARC solution. The delta of interest is from 70.5 to 75.

--------------------------------------

By design the OPPO is supposed to attenuate the recorded SACD LFE by -10dB. The purpose is to make sure folks can still apply the "standard" +10dB LFE boost already built into their AVR without having to adjust anything just because they are playing an SACD with LFE content. My D2v provides just such a +10dB boost for HDMI LPCM LFE input -- without, of course, regard for whether that LPCM came from an SACD disc or not.

That's for HDMI.

For the multi-channel Analog outs, the OPPO, by design, produces subwoofer output that is -15dB down from the main speaker outputs. -10dB of that is preservation of the standard LFE attenuation. The additional -5dB provides headroom for bass steering in case the user has any speakers set to Small. The -15dB attenuation is imposed whether or not all speakers are set to Large. Thus +15dB of boost is needed external to the player to match the Analog sub output to the other Analog outputs, and that's true all the time.

In particular, that's SUPPOSED to be true when playing an SACD as well. Which means the player has to impose -10dB attenuation on the recorded SACD LFE level for Analog output as well -- and then the additional -5dB attenuation to allow for bass steering.

-----------------------------------------------

The settings I'm using for the HDMI tests (in my 93) are explicit 1080p, Secondary Audio OFF, HDMI Audio LPCM, SACD Output PCM. I'm playing the 5.1 LPCM track from AIX, and tracks 43-48 from PentaTone.

By my testing, the HDMI results say the SACD LFE output level is +4 to +5dB too hot.

I'm not set up to test multi-channel Analog, so the explanation above is just for reference for Analog folks who are also checking this.

-----------------------------------------------

Since Stanley is using an Anthem AVM 50v -- also with ARC -- it is likely his HDMI LFE delta for the AIX test is *ALSO* due to Room Gain preserved in his ARC solution.

And allowing for that, then he's seeing the same SACD HDMI LFE anomaly I'm seeing.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8169 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 09:46 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by scheong View Post

Roger,

I got a hold of the Ratatouille Bluray and used that disc's setup speaker balance tones. Is this the THX Optimzer you are referring to?

With the 50v volume at -19db, I got these measurements with a Radio Shack digital SPL meter.

LF - 60db, C - 60db, RF - 60db, LS - 61db, RS - 61db, Sub - 65db (fluctuates between 64-66)

Seems like our relative measurement between the mains and sub with the AIX and THX Optimizer are the same.

Stanley

This is as I would expect. I believe the delta you are seeing with AIX and with the THX tracks is due to Room Gain built into your ARC solution.

When you get a chance, open up your current ARC results file, click on the Targets button, and see what value is shown for Room Gain for the Movie or Music solution (whichever you are using in the Source Setup while running these tests). I suspect you'll find something around +4dB Room Gain has been preserved in the bass portion of your ARC solution.

That still leaves the EXTRA +4 to +5dB of delta in the PentaTone test to account for.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8170 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 02:58 PM
Member
 
scheong's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 38
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

This is as I would expect. I believe the delta you are seeing with AIX and with the THX tracks is due to Room Gain built into your ARC solution.

When you get a chance, open up your current ARC results file, click on the Targets button, and see what value is shown for Room Gain for the Movie or Music solution (whichever you are using in the Source Setup while running these tests). I suspect you'll find something around +4dB Room Gain has been preserved in the bass portion of your ARC solution.

That still leaves the EXTRA +4 to +5dB of delta in the PentaTone test to account for.
--Bob

Yes, the room gain is almost 4db. It is 3.945749db to be exact for both Movie and Music.

Stanley
scheong is offline  
post #8171 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 03:00 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ OK, that's consistent with what you are seeing from AIX I believe.

I'm waiting for more info from some other Oppo Beta Testers -- e.g., what's going on in the Analog outputs.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8172 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 03:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by scheong View Post

I got a hold of the Ratatouille Bluray and used that disc's setup speaker balance tones. Is this the THX Optimzer you are referring to?

Not exactly, but it's perfectly usable (especially since I have the same disc). These are Disney's own test signals, and they state all are recorded at -20 dBFS, yet the LFE is clearly not, otherwise it would have played much louder.

Quote:


With the 50v volume at -19db, I got these measurements with a Radio Shack digital SPL meter.

LF - 60db, C - 60db, RF - 60db, LS - 61db, RS - 61db, Sub - 65db (fluctuates between 64-66)

Seems like our relative measurement between the mains and sub with the AIX and THX Optimizer are the same.

If you look at my earlier post, I updated the table to show my results from this disc. It's pretty much in the same ballpark as the THX Optimizer, just 4 dB louder overall. I also found an error in my levels for the Penta disc, as I had used my Music settings instead of Movie which I used for all the other discs. So I had added several dB of sub gain by mistake.

Turns out that your readings and mine are all virtually the same now.

At this point I cannot figure what is reality with the Penta disc. If the Oppo has a bug causing SACDs to play back LFE 5 dB too loud, then it has been there all throughout my time with both the BDP-83 and 93. They are the same in that regard, to this day.

If we could play that disc in a variety of SACD players, that might tell us something.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8173 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 03:46 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ I agree I'm getting the same HDMI LPCM result with the 83.

Also with the HDMI 2 output from the 93.

The thing is, I could swear I tested this PentaTone disc against the 83 and the 93 at some point last year and did *NOT* get this anomaly.

At some point, I discovered the difference between the Channel ID tracks on PentaTone (something like tracks 16 and up, I forget) and the true, level balance tracks (tracks 43-48, which, unlike the Channel ID tracks, are encoded strictly according to the paragraph in the accompanying instruction booklet which Roger quoted above).

And at that time I checked carefully to see how things were matched between the PentaTone 43-48, AIX LPCM, and also the audio tests on the audio disc in the Avia Pro SD-DVD set (as decoded into LPCM by the OPPO players). At that time I convinced myself that everything was "correct". In particular, no such SACD anomaly as Stanley and I are finding now.

Unfortunately, I can't find my notes on that, and so I'm not sure which player firmware was involved.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8174 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 04:35 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Roger,
There is no mystery in the AIX results as far as I can see in my system. But there IS a mystery in the PentaTone results. You need some background:

The solution built by Anthem Room Correction (ARC) for my room...

So there is no mystery in the AIX result I measure. I know precisely where the 3-4dB increase in LFE SPL is coming from in my setup, with a high degree of certainty.

Bob, let me mention some useful facts. If we took a wideband (20-20kHz) pink noise signal (like on AIX or Penta discs), and also made a copy of it through a 120 Hz LPF, then applied 10 dB gain, measured with a wideband meter, the LFE signal would be about 4 dB louder than the main signal. If we measure with a C-wtd meter, the difference will a little be less because of the bass rolloff. If we measure up to 80 Hz instead of 120 Hz, the level drops another dB.

So it is not inconceivable that the AIX disc comes out with the sub and main levels very close in SPL, and with 3 dB room gain added it is 3 dB higher.

My point is that wideband measurements are easily corrupted by response errors, which may not affect ARC users like you or Stanley, but others probably have lumpier responses in their rooms.

Quote:
Now, when I run the test with the PentaTone tracks 43-48, and again adjust main Volume so that the fronts are at 67dB SPL -- as you noted that requires an increase in main Volume compared to the AIX track -- the SACD LFE level measures 74-75dB SPL (tending more towards 75).

That's +4 to +5dB higher than it should be.

Yes, all three of us are seeing this. I am willing to concede this is a bug in the -93. But then that means there is also a bug in the -83, as that measures exactly the same. Is that the contention -- both series of players have this "5 dB" bug?

Would be interesting to see how other SACD players handle the Penta disc vs other PCM ref discs.

Quote:
By design the OPPO is supposed to attenuate the recorded SACD LFE by -10dB. The purpose is to make sure folks can still apply the "standard" +10dB LFE boost already built into their AVR without having to adjust anything just because they are playing an SACD with LFE content.

If it is supposed to drop LFE 10 dB, it is at least 5 dB off the mark.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8175 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 05:05 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ Either we are all missing something here or it looks like some firmware update to the 83 duplicated the bug we think may now exist in the 93/95.

The 83 got "official" firmware updates in March of last year, December of last year, and January of this year (that last being a January, Beta release that was promoted to "official" status -- without any changes -- in March of this year). So there are several opportunities for a glitch like this to have crept in. My problem is I can't recall just how far back it was the last time I took a careful look at this SACD stuff.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8176 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 05:08 PM
Advanced Member
 
KevinH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
I may have missed something but is this potential bug just over HDMI, or has it been repeated via analogs too?

-Kevin

Epson 5020UB 1080p 3LCD projector

Screen Innovations Black Diamond Zero Edge 1.4 110" 16:9

Marantz AV8801 pre/pro

Wyred4Sound 5-channel amp

Oppo BDP-105

Darbee Darblet

JTR 3TX LCRs

JTR Single8 HT-LP surrounds

twin JTR Orbit Shifter LF subwoofers

GIK Acoustic room treatments

KevinH is offline  
post #8177 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 05:16 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinH View Post

I may have missed something but is this potential bug just over HDMI, or has it been repeated via analogs too?

So far, all the results above are HDMI. With PCM output for the SACD test. I'm testing with an Anthem pre-pro. These results have also been duplicated using a Denon AVR. Also I'm using a 93 (and an 83), not a 95.

I'm still waiting for results I trust on the Analog side. I'm not set up to do that properly. For Analog, there's also the issue of PCM vs DSD playback. I expect to hear something soon from some other Beta testers who ARE set up to test a 95 properly in an Analog configuration.

NOTE: There are CONFLICTING results from OPPO engineering who are testing this with a test rig directly attached to the player's outputs -- no AVR or speakers involved. At some point we are going to have to find an explanation for that. Perhaps cockpit error with the test rig. Or perhaps something we've overlooked testing via AVRs and speakers. Still being looked at.

I should state again that even if there really *IS* a problem here, many folks playing SACD discs won't actually HEAR a problem, because many SACD discs are authored with zero content in the .1 channel. They are authored to carry all their bass in the main speaker channels, which then gets to your subwoofer via crossover processing.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8178 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 05:26 PM
Advanced Member
 
KevinH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 902
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 21
Gotcha Bob. And not that I need it, but do you know if there has even been a discussion amongst the Oppo engineers about providing a 10dB boost to the LFE channel when using analogs?...............similar to what the Denon 3800 blu player offers? The Oppos may not even be able to do it from a hardware standpoint? I'm not sure how Denon implemented it.

-Kevin

Epson 5020UB 1080p 3LCD projector

Screen Innovations Black Diamond Zero Edge 1.4 110" 16:9

Marantz AV8801 pre/pro

Wyred4Sound 5-channel amp

Oppo BDP-105

Darbee Darblet

JTR 3TX LCRs

JTR Single8 HT-LP surrounds

twin JTR Orbit Shifter LF subwoofers

GIK Acoustic room treatments

KevinH is offline  
post #8179 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 05:32 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ The design decision is to *NOT* boost the Analog sub output in the player, because that risks clipping the input of whatever's at the other end of the cable.

This is primarily a problem for folks passing the analog subwoofer signal through a pre-amp or pre-pro. Less so for folks directly connecting it to a subwoofer. The whole idea is that LFE is retained at -10dB so that it can carry *LOUD* bass without risk of clipping an input. Once it is boosted, anything in the chain from that point on has to have enough headroom to handle such LOUD bass.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8180 of 11189 Old 04-01-2012, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I'm still waiting for results I trust on the Analog side. I'm not set up to do that properly. For Analog, there's also the issue of PCM vs DSD playback. I expect to hear something soon from some other Beta testers who ARE set up to test a 95 properly in an Analog configuration.

I expect they will report the same results as Oppo did.

Quote:
NOTE: There are CONFLICTING results from OPPO engineering who are testing this with a test rig directly attached to the player's outputs -- no AVR or speakers involved. At some point we are going to have to find an explanation for that.

I see no conflict in what Oppo reported. Here's what they said:

Quote:
We have the same PentaTone SACD sample disc and we measured it on HDMI and multi-channel 5.1ch [analog] output, then compared the values with those from the AIX Records disc. As our table shows, we are not able to replicate the subwoofer being too hot.

PentaTone SACD (T43-48)
HDMI (LPCM)
Left Center Sub
-26.9 -26.0 -27.7

5.1 ch [analog]
-21.9 -22.2 -27.7

AIX Records (Speaker Balance Test, LPCM 5.1)
HDMI (LPCM)
Left Center Sub
-20.1 -20.6 -20.4

5.1 ch [analog]
-13.5 -13.60 -19.0

The measurements were done using the APx 585 audio analyzer directly on the BDP-95’s output terminals, bypassing any receiver/processor.

The PentaTone signals have the LFE about 1-2 dB below the mains. Add 10 dB and that’s 8-9 dB higher than the mains, which is what we have all found. No conflict there.

The AIX disc has equal wideband signals in every channel. They measured without any LPF, so the signals should be the same across the board. That is what they reported. In our systems we filter it and boost it 10 dB, so it comes out a few dB higher than the mains as we all understand. No conflict there.

The analog outputs reflect the same as the HDMI but with the -5 dB headroom offset. All as expected.

The trouble is that while their data agrees with ours, it offers no proof that there is no gain bug. Now if Oppo had compared the PentaTone with the THX, that would be quite a different story. They would have to explain why the THX's LFE should read 5-ish dB lower than the PentaTone's. They might just say well, they are different discs with different signals. No smoking gun there, either.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8181 of 11189 Old 04-02-2012, 06:59 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ I think you are misinterpreting their results.

For the HDMI test, Sub and mains should measure as equal (the +10dB LFE boost external to the player is assumed in the LFE result, i.e., it is already baked into that number reported from the test rig).

(We know the +10dB LFE boost is already baked into the number reported from the test rig because otherwise the AIX results would not match the way they do.)

For the Analog test, Sub should measure as -5dB weaker than mains (again the +10dB LFE boost external to the player is assumed -- leaving the ADDITIONAL -5dB attenuation the player applies to the multi-channel Analog subwoofer output).

This is exactly what they find with the test rig. Meaning that the SACD test, as checked with this test rig, is *NOT* showing the LFE output as +5dB too hot either on HDMI or Analog.

---------------------------------------------

Preliminary reports from other Beta testers are showing the SACD LFE output on multi-channel Analog as +5dB too hot for SACD Output PCM -- just as Stanley and I are finding for HDMI LPCM output.

The Analog configuration problem is much more complicated than the HDMI case, so this is still being double-checked. No preliminary Analog DSD results yet.

--------------------------------------------

ETA: Roger, on second reading I *THINK* I understand the interpretation you are putting on these results, but it strikes me that if you are right, then this test is simply invalid as a check on the player's output. Which may be the root of the problem.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8182 of 11189 Old 04-02-2012, 07:54 AM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ I think you are misinterpreting their results.

For the HDMI test, Sub and mains should measure as equal (the +10dB LFE boost external to the player is assumed in the LFE result, i.e., it is already baked into that number reported from the test rig).

They do measure equal (within 1-2 dB anyway).

Quote:


(We know the +10dB LFE boost is already baked into the number reported from the test rig because otherwise the AIX results would not match the way they do.)

The AIX channels measure equal because all 6 channels on the disc are indeed identical, wideband, and there's no LPF in the player or the test rig. The LFE is just another name in this case.

Quote:


For the Analog test, Sub should measure as -5dB weaker than mains

And they do. No?

Quote:


Preliminary reports from other Beta testers are showing the SACD LFE output on multi-channel Analog as +5dB too hot for SACD Output PCM -- just as Stanley and I are finding for HDMI LPCM output.

Yes, we are all getting the same results if we make the same measurements.

Quote:


ETA: Roger, on second reading I *THINK* I understand the interpretation you are putting on these results, but it strikes me that if you are right, then this test is simply invalid as a check on the player's output. Which may be the root of the problem.

That is exactly the problem--the tests we have all done, including Oppo, prove nothing. Only when we use a known entity, like a THX disc, or even the Disney signals, can we be sure. But none of them are SACD. I just ordered the Telarc 1812 SACD as it is one of the other rare discs with 5.1 test tones. Whether the signals are well defined is another matter.

If we could test the PentaTone and THX discs in a few other SACD players, we might be able to form a consensus, then see if Oppo joins that opinion or not.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8183 of 11189 Old 04-02-2012, 08:00 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ Well I think there's a much easier resolution of this, and I just put the question to the folks at OPPO. Do the test rig's LFE test results reported above ALREADY include the "standard" +10dB boost external to the player?

If not, then your interpretation probably holds, and the test rig results are invalid.

However, if those results DO already include that +10dB boost, then your interpretation can't hold, as the reported AIX LFE result would then be too small.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8184 of 11189 Old 04-02-2012, 02:02 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Roger Dressler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 8,391
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 299 Post(s)
Liked: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ Well I think there's a much easier resolution of this, and I just put the question to the folks at OPPO. Do the test rig's LFE test results reported above ALREADY include the "standard" +10dB boost external to the player?

If not, then your interpretation probably holds, and the test rig results are invalid.

However, if those results DO already include that +10dB boost, then your interpretation can't hold, as the reported AIX LFE result would then be too small.

Even if they had 10 dB boost the results would trend exactly the same. If they had +10 dB and LPF, then they would look like our results. None of these variations gets us where we need to be: to determine if the Oppo is treating all DSD channels uniformly.

Aside from the idea of comparing these discs on other players, another idea would be to run the Oppo into an AVR that has direct DSD decoding inside. That way we can be sure that the Oppo is not altering the LFE levels. If that AVR plays both the PCM and DSD versions the same (and does not have its own LFE bug as I guess certain Denon's do), then that might tell us something. Better yet, maybe the APx 585 audio analyzer can take DSD. Oppo might know if this is supported. (I am not optimisitic, as the AP product info makes no mention of SACD.)

Failing all that, maybe Oppo has access to official Sony SACD test discs that can be used to verify channel levels.
Roger Dressler is offline  
post #8185 of 11189 Old 04-02-2012, 10:18 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dmusoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 2,414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 75
OK guys:

Since my sub is crossed at 80Hz (due to its high frequency extension problems) and my mains are crossed at 60Hz, then will the LFE that could extend up to 120Hz be passed on to the mains or remain severely attenuated by my sub's limitations? If attenuated by the sib, any way i can get it to the mains?

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
dmusoke is offline  
post #8186 of 11189 Old 04-03-2012, 08:42 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ Depends on what's doing the crossover processing. If you have an 80Hz Low Pass Filter (crossover) set in your sub itself, and if it doesn't have an LFE bypass input, then you can't get LFE above 80Hz out of the Sub. And unless you have an AVR that is doing special processing that LFE isn't going to be sent anyplace else.

As an example of an alternative, in the Anthem pre-pros, LFE is handled specially -- goes around the crossover otherwise used for the Sub -- as part of Anthem Room Correction. But if the sub can't handle high bass ANYWAY, then higher LFE still frequencies get lost.

NOTE that the main speaker channels (primarily the Center in most mixes) carry substantial bass in their own right. So whether you would actually miss hearing higher frequency LFE is another matter entirely.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8187 of 11189 Old 04-03-2012, 08:46 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
Roger has mentioned the "THX Optimizer" several times in the discussion above.

I was unable to find a definitive list of titles that include the THX Optimizer as a Setup extra on disc, but this link lists the discs that are "THX Certified". Presumably some subset of these will be the ones that include THX Optimizer. There are only 340 discs listed.

Note that in MANY cases ONLY the SD-DVD version of the title is "THX Certified", and in other cases, only non-US Region versions of the title are "THX Certified". Anyway, if you have one of the listed discs, that would be a good place to look for THX Optimizer if you would like to play along at home in this discussion:

http://www.thx.com/consumer/home-ent...fied-releases/

Personally, I struck out. Nothing handy with THX Optimizer on it. (I rent a lot of discs, and have my oldest discs in storage.)
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8188 of 11189 Old 04-03-2012, 01:58 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dmusoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 2,414
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22 Post(s)
Liked: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ Depends on what's doing the crossover processing. If you have an 80Hz Low Pass Filter (crossover) set in your sub itself, and if it doesn't have an LFE bypass input, then you can't get LFE above 80Hz out of the Sub. And unless you have an AVR that is doing special processing that LFE isn't going to be sent anyplace else.

As an example of an alternative, in the Anthem pre-pros, LFE is handled specially -- goes around the crossover otherwise used for the Sub -- as part of Anthem Room Correction. But if the sub can't handle high bass ANYWAY, then higher LFE still frequencies get lost.

NOTE that the main speaker channels (primarily the Center in most mixes) carry substantial bass in their own right. So whether you would actually miss hearing higher frequency LFE is another matter entirely.
--Bob

Thanks Bob... like you, i have the D2v with ARC and have set my subwoofer's LPF to its maximum possible or mainly pass-through. So where does the LFE beyond 80Hz go? Into my mains or attenuated by the sub.

How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
dmusoke is offline  
post #8189 of 11189 Old 04-03-2012, 02:03 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,348
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 227 Post(s)
Liked: 838
^ In your setup, LFE beyond what the Sub can reproduce is lost. But again, it is not the Sub crossover setting that determines this. Look at the Calculated response curve for the Sub in the ARC charts.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #8190 of 11189 Old 04-03-2012, 04:31 PM
Member
 
bathes2051's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 77
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

[...]If that AVR plays both the PCM and DSD versions the same (and does not have its own LFE bug as I guess certain Denon's do), then that might tell us something [...]

FWIW, I noticed the +5dB on the PentaTone tracks when I took those measurements back in August, but the Onkyo 805 AVR does the same thing when decoding DSD over HDMI (note that the volume was re-calibrated between measurements, except for the first one).

Track Oppo analog Oppo LPCM Onkyo Bitstream
AIX 96/24/7.1 Dolby TrueHD 70/77 (+7) 69/76 (+7) 74/80 (+6)
AIX 96/24/7.1 DTS HD MA 75/85 (+10) 74/80 (+6) 75/81 (+6)
AIX 96/24/7.1 LPCM 75/80 (+5) 74/80 (+6) 75/80 (+5)
AIX 96/24/5.1 LPCM 75/80 (+5) 74/80 (+6) 75/80 (+5)
AIX 48/16/5.1 Dolby Digital 75/80 (+5) 74/80 (+6) 78/84 (+6)
AIX 48/24/5.1 DTS 75/85 (+10) 74/79 (+5) 75/80 (+5)
PentaTone DSD tracks 43/48 75/84 (+9) 75/84 (+9) 75/85 (+10)
bathes2051 is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Oppo Bdp 95 Blu Ray Disc Player , Blu Ray Players , Oppo

User Tag List

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off