Official OPPO BDP-95 Owner's Thread - Page 34 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 14Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #991 of 11320 Old 02-18-2011, 10:31 PM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,776
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post


Having read many of Stylin’s thoughtful contributions to this user group, I am inclined to accept his opinion (mostly focused on 2-channel outputs) of the Oppo-95 vs. the 83SE. But even if the Oppo-95’s 2-channel stereo output is not materially (if at all) superior to the Oppo-83SE, could it be that over MCH the Oppo-95 is discernibly superior to the 83SE, thereby warranting a $1000 upgrade for those of us who “must” use the MCH outputs?

Howard

There are two things to keep in mind.
1. If you are using a 2 Ch source disc you will never get a real LFE Ch (.1) yes you can have your audio pre/possessor do its trick, setting the speakers in the oppo to large or small is really were you are directing the bass. I have always used Large speaker settings for 2Ch analog so my possessor can do its thing with the lower bass for MC not stereo, but if you are using 2Ch dedicated analog audio and have the player set to stereo then the speaker settings don't matter, but that's not to say your pre/processor can't do its trick adding a sub.
2. I would disagree that the BD-95 is not better than the BD-83SE for its 2 Ch analog dedicated RCA outs. Now if you are talking about the BD-83SE/NE being very similar to the BD-95 then I would agree for its 2Ch RCA outs.
The biggest difference between the 83SE and the 83SE/NE and 95 is there is veil like sound with the 83SE were as the 83SE/NE and the 95 have lifted that veil. And yes there are other differences between the 83SE/NE and the 95 for 2Ch analog, but in most cases you are not going to hear those differences using a 2Ch source disc.

I am not saying that everybody will hear what I hear but the veil effect is there and there have been other opinions that say the say thing about the veil effect when comparing a 83SE to a 83SE/NE.

ss
sillysally is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #992 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 05:48 AM
Member
 
The 19th Hole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by The 19th Hole View Post

Hello,

Has anyone compared these two players(bdp 09 and oppo 95) in regards to the video quality?

Bluray and SD to HD?

Also, 2 channel playback ?

Just wondering if I should move the Pioneer.

Thanks in advance.

Sillysally,

Any comments on the above post would be appreciated.

Thanks
The 19th Hole is offline  
post #993 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 07:47 AM
Member
 
mikepos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 153
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

There are two things to keep in mind.
1. If you are using a 2 Ch source disc you will never get a real LFE Ch (.1) yes you can have your audio pre/possessor do its trick, setting the speakers in the oppo to large or small is really were you are directing the bass. I have always used Large speaker settings for 2Ch analog so my possessor can do its thing with the lower bass for MC not stereo, but if you are using 2Ch dedicated analog audio and have the player set to stereo then the speaker settings don't matter, but that's not to say your pre/processor can't do its trick adding a sub.
2. I would disagree that the BD-95 is not better than the BD-83SE for its 2 Ch analog dedicated RCA outs. Now if you are talking about the BD-83SE/NE being very similar to the BD-95 then I would agree for its 2Ch RCA outs.
The biggest difference between the 83SE and the 83SE/NE and 95 is there is veil like sound with the 83SE were as the 83SE/NE and the 95 have lifted that veil. And yes there are other differences between the 83SE/NE and the 95 for 2Ch analog, but in most cases you are not going to hear those differences using a 2Ch source disc.

I am not saying that everybody will hear what I hear but the veil effect is there and there have been other opinions that say the say thing about the veil effect when comparing a 83SE to a 83SE/NE.

ss

Interesting point on the "veil" over the sound. That's a good description of what sound processing does to staright through connections IMO; poor cables also have that affect. It's not ground shaing but it does make a big difference to me.
I'd suggest everyone try running as pure a signal as poosible from the 95 analog out, without any processing, and compare it to the processed sound. Speaker placement and listeniong position will be more crucial, and some rooms won't be able to get a proper frequency response, but as long as you don't have too many reflective surfaces or too many similar dimensions from speakers/listening position to walls/ceiling (i.e. room modes), you might find that a veil will be lifted from the soound, assuming good equipment all around.
I don't mean to keep harping on this, it's just that I'm going to go that route and I'm very interested in other's opinions on this. Equipment lists and their sound charactoristics are important when discussing this.
I have no experience with high end processing such as described in this thread. But I can't imagine how processing can fix the imaging and muddying effects of excessive room reflections on sound. I can understand it fixing frequency uniformity problems from room modes, and equipment charactoristics/symmetry, but AFAIK even timing corrections would be difficult to use for reflection cancellation without causing other issues.
For reference, my most exhaustive experience with sound processing to fix room issues was with a NAD 1600pre/2600aamp into Stratus Golds, using the top Denon CD player back around 1990 (can't remember the model but it blew away the top NAD player back then). The 1600 had 3 settings for bass and treble to change the octave of adjustment. It was very effective and I was able to significantly improve the frequency uniformity but left a "veil" over the sound that wasn't there when I engaged the 1600s tone by-pass, which ran the signal only through volume control. Through careful speaker placement and furniture/heavy drape use I was able to get what I heard as a far superior sound despite slightly less frequency flatness. The downside of this is that you have to ensure the most used frequencies for your listening habits are not compromised (ex. mid bass for movie watching). Except for the most difficult rooms/equiupment however, I'm a big fan of signal purity over processing.
My on-topic point is that I'd be very very interested in hearing about any experiments along these lines using the 95 analog out.

Oppo BDP-95
Bryston 3B-ST 2ch on mains
Lexicon 512 5ch
PSB Stratus Gold mains
PSB C6i center
Rythmik FV15HP
Paradigm ADP-370 surrounds
cheap energy rear speakers
mikepos is offline  
post #994 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 09:05 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,776
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by The 19th Hole View Post

Sillysally,

Any comments on the above post would be appreciated.

Thanks

imo the BD-95 edges out the 09 for Blu Ray, for 2Ch analog stereo the 95 is the clear winner. Rarely ever use SD DVD's
I will be posting my opinion about the 95's 2Ch stereo analog soon.

ss.
sillysally is offline  
post #995 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 09:17 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sillysally's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Chicago
Posts: 3,776
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 114 Post(s)
Liked: 271
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikepos View Post

Interesting point on the "veil" over the sound. That's a good description of what sound processing does to staright through connections IMO; poor cables also have that affect. It's not ground shaing but it does make a big difference to me.
I'd suggest everyone try running as pure a signal as poosible from the 95 analog out, without any processing, and compare it to the processed sound. Speaker placement and listeniong position will be more crucial, and some rooms won't be able to get a proper frequency response, but as long as you don't have too many reflective surfaces or too many similar dimensions from speakers/listening position to walls/ceiling (i.e. room modes), you might find that a veil will be lifted from the soound, assuming good equipment all around.
I don't mean to keep harping on this, it's just that I'm going to go that route and I'm very interested in other's opinions on this. Equipment lists and their sound charactoristics are important when discussing this.
I have no experience with high end processing such as described in this thread. But I can't imagine how processing can fix the imaging and muddying effects of excessive room reflections on sound. I can understand it fixing frequency uniformity problems from room modes, and equipment charactoristics/symmetry, but AFAIK even timing corrections would be difficult to use for reflection cancellation without causing other issues.
For reference, my most exhaustive experience with sound processing to fix room issues was with a NAD 1600pre/2600aamp into Stratus Golds, using the top Denon CD player back around 1990 (can't remember the model but it blew away the top NAD player back then). The 1600 had 3 settings for bass and treble to change the octave of adjustment. It was very effective and I was able to significantly improve the frequency uniformity but left a "veil" over the sound that wasn't there when I engaged the 1600s tone by-pass, which ran the signal only through volume control. Through careful speaker placement and furniture/heavy drape use I was able to get what I heard as a far superior sound despite slightly less frequency flatness. The downside of this is that you have to ensure the most used frequencies for your listening habits are not compromised (ex. mid bass for movie watching). Except for the most difficult rooms/equiupment however, I'm a big fan of signal purity over processing.
My on-topic point is that I'd be very very interested in hearing about any experiments along these lines using the 95 analog out.

Those are all very legit points. However the veil is still there even if all of your points are corrected, in the BD-83SE, I think if all/some of your points are not corrected then you just will not hear the difference between a BD-83SE and the Nuforce Edition.

ss
sillysally is offline  
post #996 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 09:21 AM
AVS Special Member
 
bakerwi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: The Peach State
Posts: 2,861
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 42 Post(s)
Liked: 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by ti-triodes View Post

The fan was definitely on more during multichannel BD's. I assume the video circuitry uses more power. I always shut off the video circuitry when listening to 2 channel.

Exactly right about the sound differences. The Njoe Tjoeb had better imaging and soundstaging. Considering it was designed solely for music and the Oppo is a universal player that has to do a dozen things, it's amazing the Oppo does it as well as it does.

tri-triodes,

This is exactly what I have been hearing from most of the posters who've done comparisons against DEDICATED CD/SACD transports. I am still on the fence about whether to purchase the BDP-95 or not, but I'm not going to hold against the BDP-95 the fact that it may come up a little short compared to transports costing 2 to 5 times its cost and their only job is to be an audio transport.

I would love to hear some comparisons against other Universal blu-ray transports.


Willie

Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD

Zektor MAS7.1

Classé CA-2200/CA-5200

Oppo BDP-105, Denon DVD-5910CI, Cambridge 752BD, Cambridge 640C V2

Paradigm Signature S8, Paradigm Signature ADP1

Paradigm Signature ADP3, Paradigm Signature C5

REL R-505 Sub (2)

Oppo BDP-93, BDP-103D, Pioneer BDP-320

Sony BDP-S790

bakerwi is offline  
post #997 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 10:07 AM
Member
 
Vikkiandkurt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 50
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Hey guys(and gals) I believe that you all have indicated the although the 95 is an incredible value for the money it probably will not be good enough to replace a stand alone CD player that is ~5yrs old in the $4000 price range for 2-channel analog music applications but no one gave me their input on whether it merits the upgrade from the 93 if I was just going to use it for movies(using the 2-channel analog output vs deriving the 2-channel from the 7-channel on the 93. Do you all think that there would be a noticeable improvement and if so in what areas?
PLEASE guys;I value your experience and advice!!!
Vikkiandkurt is offline  
post #998 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 10:39 AM
Member
 
The 19th Hole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 25
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks sillysally

I was just curious how the scaler in the 95 compared to the 09 as I have, as many here do, a decent amount of dvds that wont be upgraded to bluray. Maybe I should also inquire if the scaler in the D2 would rival the scaler in the 95 ??? I'm sure Bob could chime in and answer that at his convenience.

Thanks for your input.
The 19th Hole is offline  
post #999 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 10:59 AM
Member
 
tomcrown1's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 117
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Does anyone know what will be in the $1500 nuforce board. Will it increase the two channel sound of the oppo 95? Doe it uses better dacs? Why does it cost so much? The nuforce site has very little information on this.
tomcrown1 is offline  
post #1000 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 11:05 AM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thought about not posting this until I test further, but running out of time before I travel tomorrow for business. Will chat with Oppo as well, but appreciate any insight....

OK, the project for yesterday and today is bass management revisited. Something is VERY wrong. And difficult to explain. And possible I am missing something.

I use primarily the analog 5.1 outs of the Oppo. There are times I use bass management in my proc (Parasound AVC-1800). So I want levels to match on both. Or at least relative speaker levels.

The goal is to use MCH analog outs from the Oppo for all discs - DVD, Blu-ray, Blu-ray Audio, CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc. So this is more important than having bass management in the proc "right on".

I used three different discs (Disney WOW, DVE, S and V) as well as internal pink noise on the proc to set bass management using SPDIF out from the Oppo. And a Rat Shack SPL meter adjusting just a little for inaccuracy in the low end of the meter. Everything balances well. I use the sub input level to trim the sub level. Not only does it measure accurately, it SOUNDS accurate. All front and surround set to small, btw with 80 Hz crossover set on both the proc and the Oppo.

Now, same tests tones from discs on the Oppo using analog outs. Fronts, surrounds all balance about the same. But sub is 10-15dB below the sub level compared to using the Parasound to decode. Only way to get close is drop fronts and surrounds a little and raise sub 8-10 dB. And then, levels are closer with test tones, but some discs are 10 dB hot on the LFE channel. And there is a different quality of the LFE as well. The proc decoding seems to have more low frequency in the LFE tone and the Oppo sounds like it is missing the bottom octave. There is no doubt the frequency response of the SPDIF out and analog out LFE is different. No doubt.

Direct a/b shows this easily. I have not yet tried a Stryker disc and checked 20 or 25Hz with Oppo analog and Parasound SPDIF to see, but may if I have time today. Should show the freq difference I am hearing.

So, it seems the analog LFE or Sub output of the Oppo is greatly too low and on SOME material (Inception) it boosts Sub output to be unlistenable. But worse, the frequency response. And even where the bass is not boosted, the quality of the LFE on analog out is missing impact.

This could be a deal breaker now for me.

I am hoping someone will point out something I am just doing wrong, but I have thought through all this quite a bit and if I am, I am missing it.

Could anyone check a good Blu-ray with bottom end and compare SPDIF out with analog out and see if they find the same.

Unfortunately, I will be traveling for 5 days on business starting tomorrow, so will only have some of today to test any suggestions the next Friday will be my next opportunity. And the last day to return if I cannot solve this.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1001 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 11:09 AM
Member
 
michdys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Concerning the DSD output via the analog connections:

From Bob's excellent explanation (as usual ), I understood that if the 95 is connected to e.g. a flat screen (which obviously doesn't support DSD), one needs to make sure that the TV isn't set on that particular HDMI input in order to avoid a DSD/PCM conversion (even if the TV is off)

Now, reading the manual, I was wondering this:
if one selects in the menu "HDMI Audio Off", would that avoid having to check the TV input altogether ?
That would be the most practical solution for me, since I don't need audio (actually "noise") from my Samsung flat screen speakers and I would only use the analog outputs of the 95 to send the audio to either my MCH pre-amp or stereo pre-amp.
michdys is offline  
post #1002 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 11:17 AM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by michdys View Post

Concerning the DSD output via the analog connections:

From Bob's excellent explanation (as usual ), I understood that if the 95 is connected to e.g. a flat screen (which obviously doesn't support DSD), one needs to make sure that the TV isn't set on that particular HDMI input in order to avoid a DSD/PCM conversion (even if the TV is off)

Now, reading the manual, I was wondering this:
if one selects in the menu "HDMI Audio Off", would that avoid having to check the TV input altogether ?
That would be the most practical solution for me, since I don't need audio (actually "noise") from my Samsung flat screen speakers and I would only use the analog outputs of the 95 to send the audio to either my MCH pre-amp or stereo pre-amp.

I tried this and it does not work. Oppo explained to me that some HDMI inputs are always hot so if the TV is on or on an HDMI input, it will not allows DSD to pass just in case.

I agree, would have been a nice solution.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1003 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 11:45 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebop View Post

Thought about not posting this until I test further, but running out of time before I travel tomorrow for business. Will chat with Oppo as well, but appreciate any insight....

OK, the project for yesterday and today is bass management revisited. Something is VERY wrong. And difficult to explain. And possible I am missing something.

I use primarily the analog 5.1 outs of the Oppo. There are times I use bass management in my proc (Parasound AVC-1800). So I want levels to match on both. Or at least relative speaker levels.

The goal is to use MCH analog outs from the Oppo for all discs - DVD, Blu-ray, Blu-ray Audio, CD, SACD, DVD-A, etc. So this is more important than having bass management in the proc "right on".

I used three different discs (Disney WOW, DVE, S and V) as well as internal pink noise on the proc to set bass management using SPDIF out from the Oppo. And a Rat Shack SPL meter adjusting just a little for inaccuracy in the low end of the meter. Everything balances well. I use the sub input level to trim the sub level. Not only does it measure accurately, it SOUNDS accurate. All front and surround set to small, btw with 80 Hz crossover set on both the proc and the Oppo.

Now, same tests tones from discs on the Oppo using analog outs. Fronts, surrounds all balance about the same. But sub is 10-15dB below the sub level compared to using the Parasound to decode. Only way to get close is drop fronts and surrounds a little and raise sub 8-10 dB. And then, levels are closer with test tones, but some discs are 10 dB hot on the LFE channel. And there is a different quality of the LFE as well. The proc decoding seems to have more low frequency in the LFE tone and the Oppo sounds like it is missing the bottom octave. There is no doubt the frequency response of the SPDIF out and analog out LFE is different. No doubt.

Direct a/b shows this easily. I have not yet tried a Stryker disc and checked 20 or 25Hz with Oppo analog and Parasound SPDIF to see, but may if I have time today. Should show the freq difference I am hearing.

So, it seems the analog LFE or Sub output of the Oppo is greatly too low and on SOME material (Inception) it boosts Sub output to be unlistenable. But worse, the frequency response. And even where the bass is not boosted, the quality of the LFE on analog out is missing impact.

This could be a deal breaker now for me.

I am hoping someone will point out something I am just doing wrong, but I have thought through all this quite a bit and if I am, I am missing it.

Could anyone check a good Blu-ray with bottom end and compare SPDIF out with analog out and see if they find the same.

Unfortunately, I will be traveling for 5 days on business starting tomorrow, so will only have some of today to test any suggestions the next Friday will be my next opportunity. And the last day to return if I cannot solve this.

Rebop,
The sub output on the analog multi-channel outputs is down -15dB compared to the other channels by design to keep loud bass on that output from clipping the input on your pre-amp (or sub amp). -10dB of that comes from the nature of LFE itself on movie discs which is recorded -10dB down to provide more headroom. I.e., LFE is not so much for bass -- the other speaker channels are perfectly capable of carrying bass -- it is for *LOUD* bass.

The remaining -5dB is to allow additional headroom for steered bass in case you have any speakers set to "Small" in the player. Due to recommendations from Dolby the -15dB is maintained even if all speakers are set to "Large".

Note that the above applies *ONLY* to the multi-channel analog outputs.

+10dB boost is "standard" in pre-amps for LFE input. For the digital audio paths (such as S/PDIF) that happens automatically. For the multi-channel analog path you may need to turn that on. In any event, there is an additional +5dB that also needs to be accounted for on the multi-channel analog path.

---------------------------------

Apparently your problem is that you are trying to match levels from the analog outs against levels for digital audio output.

If your pre-amp/processor is typical, it will not provide level adjustment on its multi-channel analog inputs but WILL provide it on the digital audio path. If that assumption holds true for you, then a common approach to solving this problem is:

1) Get a calibration disc and use that for making these adjustments. I recommend the AIX audio calibration Blu-ray. To keep things simple, use the 7.1 or 5.1 LPCM tracks from that.

2) Set volume trims in the Oppo for the multi-channel analog outputs EXCEPT FOR the subwoofer. Leave the sub output at 0dB trim.

3) Adjust the sub level for multi-channel analog using the volume knob on the sub. Typically this will mean RAISING the volume knob on the sub +5dB or +15dB depending upon whether your pre-amp does or does not provide the "standard" +10dB boost on LFE input already for the multi-channel analog inputs. Whatever the case may be, use the sub volume knob to get the sub in balance.

4) Now this means you have just screwed up the sub for your digital audio. So now go into the setup for your digital audio path and LOWER the volume trim for the sub output for those in your pre-amp/processor to compensate for the change you just made to the sub volume knob.

The upshot is that the levels are correct for multi-channel analog because of the adjustment you made to the volume knob on the sub, and the levels are ALSO correct for digital audio because of the compensating reduction you've made in sub output trim in the pre-amp for those sources.

---------------------------------------------------

NOTE 1: Don't just raise the sub volume trim in the Oppo as that will defeat the purpose of making sure that output won't clip the input of your pre-amp. However, as stated, the extra -5dB attenuation is to allow headroom in the sub analog output if you have bass steering going on -- i.e., if any speakers are set to "Small" in the Oppo (and you are not playing SACD discs using DSD-direct-to-analog). If in fact you have all speakers set to "Large" then no such bass steering is happening in the Oppo and so it is safe to add up to +5dB of sub output volume trim in the Oppo itself.

NOTE 2: The SACD spec is screwy. It has an LFE channel but does NOT record it at -10dB down compared to the other speaker channels. This is silly on the face of it since there's no point in an LFE channel in that case. The other speaker channels are perfectly capable of carrying bass themselves. Indeed some older SACD discs are recorded with LFE -10dB down just because of this (compounding what is already a silly situation). And PentaTone records their latest SACD titles without using the LFE channel (except in test tones) because of this confusion. They carry all of their bass in the main speaker channels. Anyway, in the Oppo, SACD LFE is automatically attenuated -10dB so that it matches the level settings you have for LFE from other sources.

NOTE 3: As previously posted SACD DSD-direct-to-analog bypasses any processing including bass steering. If that's what you are using then you will need to take extra care in setting sub volume trim. As stated in my earlier post above, if you are trying to use the multi-channel analog outputs BOTH for SACD DSD-direct-to-analog output AND for "normal" audio processing for movies and such, you have an interesting challenge figuring out how to account for the lack of processing on the DSD path.

NOTE 4: I recommend the test tones in Tracks 43-48 of "Stay in tune with PentaTone", SACD, to test SACD levels. Just to give you an idea of how people can screw this up even when they are trying to be careful not to do it, even this PentaTone disc has a problem. As the write up that comes with it correctly states, the levels in Tracks 43-48 are "right" -- those are the ones to use for set up. But the channel-ID tracks also on that disc (starting around Track 19 as I recall) have the LFE test track recorded +10dB too loud. I'll be charitable and suggest that instead of a bug, this is something PentaTone did deliberately on those channel-ID tracks to make sure folks still hear that bass channel-ID tone if their system has the error where their sub is -10dB too low.

NOTE 5: There have been recent reports here that there is a problem with the built-in sub channel test tone in the Oppo in the current firmware. I haven't seen details on that. If true, this is of course just a bug. Using a calibration disc as I recommend is the workaround.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1004 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 12:13 PM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:


The sub output on the analog multi-channel outputs is down -15dB compared to the other channels by design to keep loud bass on that output from clipping the input on your pre-amp (or sub amp). -10dB of that comes from the nature of LFE itself on movie discs which is recorded -10dB down to provide more headroom. I.e., LFE is not so much for bass -- the other speaker channels are perfectly capable of carrying bass -- it is for *LOUD* bass.

The remaining -5dB is to allow additional headroom for steered bass in case you have any speakers set to "Small" in the player. Due to recommendations from Dolby the -15dB is maintained even if all speakers are set to "Large".

I have read this. You may have even said it to me before or at least posted this. I have a hard time wrapping my arms around it. For just one example, playing 2.1 from CD using analog outs has the LFE or SUB level just wrong. Not enough level on low bass notes, kick drum...

Quote:


+10dB boost is "standard" in pre-amps for LFE input. For the digital audio paths (such as S/PDIF) that happens automatically. For the multi-channel analog path you may need to turn that on. In any event, there is an additional +5dB that also needs to be accounted for.

If my proc adds 10dB, there is no control to turn this on or off. And, it was never an issue before the Oppo.

Quote:


If your pre-amp/processor is typical, it will not provide level adjustment on its multi-channel analog inputs but WILL provide it on the digital audio path. If that assumption holds true for you, then a common approach to solving this problem is:

Exactly correct.

Quote:


1) Get a calibration disc and use that for making these adjustments. I recommend the AIX audio calibration Blu-ray. To keep things simple, use the 7.1 or 5.1 LPCM tracks from that.

2) Set volume trims in the Oppo for the multi-channel analog outputs EXCEPT FOR the subwoofer. Leave the sub output at 0dB trim.

3) Adjust the sub level for multi-channel analog using the volume knob on the sub. Typically this will mean RAISING the volume knob on the sub +5dB or +15dB depending upon whether your pre-amp does or does not provide the "standard" +10dB boost on LFE input already for the multi-channel analog inputs. Whatever the case may be, use the sub volume knob to get the sub in balance.

4) Now this means you have just screwed up the sub for your digital audio. So now go into the setup for your digital audio path and LOWER the volume trim for the sub output for those in your pre-amp/processor to compensate for the change you just made to the sub volume knob.

Tied several discs with pink noise tones as mentioned. And tried just as you describe. Problem is, there is not enough control to lower the sub level in the bass management of the processor. I have it down to the bottom relative to speakers and that is -10 dB. Still requires the Oppo to be at +10 dB for the Sub to match anywhere close.

And all speakers are set to small, as mentioned.

And this , of course, does not address the perceived but not yet measured frequency response difference between SPDIF and analog on the Oppo.


I was going to write more, Bob, but will refrain for a bit and try setting up cleanly one more time, then reply. It truly is giving me a headache. Every time I get "something" to sound right, something else is noticeably out of which. And by something, I mean DVD, Blu-ray, CD, SACD. All seem like they can never be correct by one bass management setting and all using MCH analog outs.

You're close to Palo Alto, no? If so, and you ever feel like hearing the problem first hand and suggesting a cure, it would be welcomed.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1005 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 12:16 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebop View Post

I tried this and it does not work. Oppo explained to me that some HDMI inputs are always hot so if the TV is on or on an HDMI input, it will not allows DSD to pass just in case.

I agree, would have been a nice solution.

I've been lobbying for some time that HDMI Audio OFF ought to be sufficient to enable SACD DSD on the multi-channel analog path. Oppo has resisted, apparently because they are concerned there are situations DURING the handshake where HDMI DSD might sneak out on the cable as a transient.

As you probably know, feeding HDMI DSD to a device that can't handle it is definitely not a good idea for your speakers, etc.

Anyway, this is still on the list. In the current firmware, the most practical way to get SACD DSD to the multi-channel analog outputs if you have HDMI devices connected which can not themselves accept HDMI DSD (either HDMI output) is to just switch those devices to a different input so that the HDMI cable from the Oppo to them is not "active".
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1006 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 12:20 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebop View Post

I was going to write more, Bob, but will refrain for a bit and try setting up cleanly one more time, then reply. It truly is giving me a headache. Every time I get "something" to sound right, something else is noticeably out of which. And by something, I mean DVD, Blu-ray, CD, SACD. All seem like they can never be correct by one bass management setting and all using MCH analog outs.

You're close to Palo Alto, no? If so, and you ever feel like hearing the problem first hand and suggesting a cure, it would be welcomed.

I am not close to Palo Alto.

Since the digital path volume trim in your pre-amp is limited, try this: Set +5dB volume trim in the Oppo on the sub output for the multi-channel analog outputs.

Now go through the process I described above, leaving that sub volume trim at +5dB in the Oppo (instead of the 0dB stated above).

Be sure to set up the ANALOG path first. Again, use the volume knob on your sub to do any additional trim needed for the sub when using Analog.

Now go back and do the digital path using the sub volume trim in your pre-amp to compensate.

Keep in mind that you can't compare the S/PDIF output to the analog or HDMI output when playing high bandwidth LPCM, TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. S/PDIF can't carry those so you are playing an entirely different track over S/PDIF -- the "compatibility" lossy track which is on disc for just that purpose.

ETA: Since you have your speakers set to "Small", if you sense any clipping on that analog sub path, lower ALL the volume trims in the Oppo a bit so as to maintain that +5dB delta on the Oppo's sub output but at a lower voltage level on all channels. Do only the minimum change necessary to accomplish this.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1007 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 12:57 PM
Member
 
michdys's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 179
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I've been lobbying for some time that HDMI Audio OFF ought to be sufficient to enable SACD DSD on the multi-channel analog path. Oppo has resisted, apparently because they are concerned there are situations DURING the handshake where HDMI DSD might sneak out on the cable as a transient.

As you probably know, feeding HDMI DSD to a device that can't handle it is definitely not a good idea for your speakers, etc.

Anyway, this is still on the list. In the current firmware, the most practical way to get SACD DSD to the multi-channel analog outputs if you have HDMI devices connected which can not themselves accept HDMI DSD (either HDMI output) is to just switch those devices to a different input so that the HDMI cable from the Oppo to them is not "active".
--Bob

I just had a look at the manual of the upcoming Denon DBP2012, en guess what I found on page 40

Quote:


For playback of a super audio CD with DSD via
the analog audio output terminals, set HDMI
to Off.

If Denon knows how to pull the trick, then surely Oppo must be able to as well
So keep lobbying for it I would say

Yves
michdys is offline  
post #1008 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 12:59 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by michdys View Post

I just had a look at the manual of the upcoming Denon DBP2012, en guess what I found on page 40



If Denon knows how to pull the trick, then surely Oppo must be able to as well
So keep lobbying for it I would say

Yves

Well, there's no trick. Denon may just not be concerned about the possible risk as much as Oppo is.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1009 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 01:11 PM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I am not close to Palo Alto.

Since the digital path volume trim in your pre-amp is limited, try this: Set +5dB volume trim in the Oppo on the sub output for the multi-channel analog outputs.

Now go through the process I described above, leaving that sub volume trim at +5dB in the Oppo (instead of the 0dB stated above).

Be sure to set up the ANALOG path first. Again, use the volume knob on your sub to do any additional trim needed for the sub when using Analog.

Now go back and do the digital path using the sub volume trim in your pre-amp to compensate.

Keep in mind that you can't compare the S/PDIF output to the analog or HDMI output when playing high bandwidth LPCM, TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. S/PDIF can't carry those so you are playing an entirely different track over S/PDIF -- the "compatibility" lossy track which is on disc for just that purpose.

ETA: Since you have your speakers set to "Small", if you sense any clipping on that analog sub path, lower ALL the volume trims in the Oppo a bit so as to maintain that +5dB delta on the Oppo's sub output but at a lower voltage level on all channels. Do only the minimum change necessary to accomplish this.
--Bob

Sorry, for some reason I thought I remembered you being local.

So, something I just thought about in the shower is raising the front and rear levels in the Parasound to keep the 15 dB difference and then when adjust sub level with Parasound sub all the way down, might be able to match more closely with the Oppo sub set at 0.

Will try all this as I can today. Need to pack first so I don;t let time slip away and miss the plane tomorrow while playing with this

Quote:


Be sure to set up the ANALOG path first. Again, use the volume knob on your sub to do any additional trim needed for the sub when using Analog.

And where would you set this relative to fronts and surrounds? Equal? (Assuming I compensate for the inaccurate reading of the SPL meter).

Quote:


Keep in mind that you can't compare the S/PDIF output to the analog or HDMI output when playing high bandwidth LPCM, TrueHD or DTS-HD MA. S/PDIF can't carry those so you are playing an entirely different track over S/PDIF -- the "compatibility" lossy track which is on disc for just that purpose.

Which is why I would think the analog outs would have the widest freq response and better bass. But this is not the case.

Thanks for all the thoughts Bob. More as I know it.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1010 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 01:24 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Yes, when doing the analog setup you set the sub SPL (via it's volume knob) equal to the SPL you are targeting for the other speakers.

Typically you would start the analog setup by setting the LF volume trim in the Oppo to 0dB and the sub volume trim to 0dB, or, in your case +5dB. Then playing a test tone from your calibration disc, adjust main volume on your pre-amp so that LF produces whatever SPL level you are targeting -- typically 75dB SPL.

Now adjust the other volume trims on the analog path, using the volume trims in the Oppo for the other speakers and the volume knob on the sub for the sub itself. At the end of this, the volume trim in the Oppo for LF and for sub will remain as you set them above. Only the other speaker volume trims -- and of course the volume knob on the sub -- will get changed.

Then go do the digital path using ONLY the volume trims in your pre-amp.

NOTE: I'm ignoring refinements here. For example, Room Gain is generally something people want to preserve and the net effect of that will be that the "proper" setting for your sub will be a few dB higher than the other speakers (particularly if your sub has good output at the higher bass frequencies). These sorts of refinements mean you have to have some feel for the characteristics of your listening room. So start out with the sub set to match the other speakers, but if you feel you want 2-4dB more sub after that, don't be surprised. Movie mixers generally assume the home listening room will have a small amount of Room Gain like this. There is no such consensus among music mixers, but many music enthusiasts feel multi-channel music mixes are more often than not, set to expect somewhat less Room Gain. So if you boost your sub at the low end of what sounds best for movies then you may have a better match for music.

In addition, typical listening rooms have widely variable bass response by both frequency and seating/speaker location. Since movies and music tend to emphasize different bass frequency ranges, such room response issues can affect your perception of them differently. It's not at all unusual to find rooms that have a 12dB (or more!) swing in bass response across the bass frequency range at the primary seating location. Moving the sub, even a few inches, can change this significantly.

The SPL measurements average this out by capturing the energy output across a range of frequencies. If you attempt to use, say, the Radio Shack SPL meter to measure specific, single, bass frequencies, you also need to know that it has consistent errors at different frequencies -- a few dB up or down. See the subwoofer forum for details.

Lastly, if bass steering is resulting in anemic bass through the crossover frequencies your problem most likely is that the subwoofer is not phase matched to your main speakers. I.e., when the same bass audio is coming from both (as happens in the vicinity of the crossover frequency) the two wave fronts are canceling because they are out of phase. Use a subwoofer phase test tone on calibration disc for this, and adjust the phase control on your sub.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1011 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 01:33 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Styln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

This post is directed to those who, like me, have a setup consisting of SMALL, MONITOR L&R FRONTS, COUPLED TO A SUBWOOFER (and two small surrounds) RATHER THAN LARGE, FULL-RANGE FRONTS.

....

Having read many of Stylin’s thoughtful contributions to this user group, I am inclined to accept his opinion (mostly focused on 2-channel outputs) of the Oppo-95 vs. the 83SE. But even if the Oppo-95’s 2-channel stereo output is not materially (if at all) superior to the Oppo-83SE, could it be that over MCH the Oppo-95 is discernibly superior to the 83SE, thereby warranting a $1000 upgrade for those of us who “must” use the MCH outputs?

Howard

Nice write up Howard, and yes, all my speakers are full range. You have captured the 2.1 MCH bass management issue well as it pertains to these two analog based players. At this time, the only sonic related reason that I heard to upgrade from an 83SE is for improved MCH analog sound. So if you are dissatisfied with the way the FL/FR 83SE outputs sound in your 2.1 based system, the 95 will be an improvement. Also consider the sub-woofer crossover frequency is now adjustable from 40 to 250 Hz. How much of an improvement and is it worth the cost is something Oppo has made easy and inexpensive for you to find out.

Styln
Styln is offline  
post #1012 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 02:25 PM
AVS Club Gold
 
htwaits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 126 Post(s)
Liked: 482
Quote:
Originally Posted by rebop View Post

Sorry, for some reason I thought I remembered you being local.

I'm local but that won't help with your problem.
htwaits is offline  
post #1013 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 04:31 PM
Member
 
haverbach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 138
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 11
Quote:
Originally Posted by Styln View Post

At this time, the only sonic related reason that I heard to upgrade from an 83SE is for improved MCH analog sound. So if you are dissatisfied with the way the FL/FR 83SE outputs sound in your 2.1 based system, the 95 will be an improvement. Also consider the sub-woofer crossover frequency is now adjustable from 40 to 250 Hz. How much of an improvement and is it worth the cost is something Oppo has made easy and inexpensive for you to find out.
Styln

Styln, thanks for your reply. I'll address two points:

It's not quite that I am "dissatisfied" with the Oppo-83SE FL/FR outputs; it's pretty good. But to my ears it is not discernably better than over HDMI in a 2.1 speaker setup. In contrast, I found that the 2-channel stereo outputs of the 83SE were better, but overall neutral sound suffered due to the mid-base peaking that is unavoidable when using the Oppo's 83SE's 2-channel outputs in a 2.1 speaker setup. Consequently, in hindsight, I should not have purchased the 83SE, but the base 83. Since you have found real improvement in the MCH oututs of the 95 vs. the 83SE, that may, indeed, be reason to upgrade.

One further point. You wrote that the new Oppo-95 allows SW output to be adjusted from 40 to 250 Hz. I did not know that. Of course, under the 83SE it was fixed at 80Hz. Since my FR/FL speakers (NHT Classic Threes) probably produce a clean signal down to 60Hz or so (that's only a guess, but a reasonable guess), perhaps the Oppo-95's 2-channel outputs (as well as the SW output) can be used in a 2.1 channel speaker setup if one were to lower the Oppo-95's SW output to about 60Hz, thereby avoiding the bass peak that unavoidably occurs with the 83SE if using the 2-channel outputs in a 2.1channel speaker setup. Any thoughts?

Howard
haverbach is offline  
post #1014 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 06:06 PM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob,

Thanks again for your time and posts. Much appreciated. I do know most if not all of your last post, was just trying to clarify if a level match or perhaps a 5dB sub boost was called for due to all these different bass levels previously mentioned. I do adjust about +2 dB for lack of room gain, btw.

This isn't my first system and I was an early adopter of the Behringer BFD fr home theater, so used to setting bass levels and blending and was always happy with the results on my system which includes Westlake BBSM 10's and 6's, Perreaux and SAE amps, HSU sub, etc. And I did sell pro audio gear for about 25 years though I was more of an analog expert. I left the business around the time we we dropping studio monitor top end levels as we always had to bump for what got lost in the transfer to vinyl and CD mastering was coming out brittle because the monitors were miscalibrated for the new medium. I have a very good ear. Still, even at my age.

But I think I have found exactly what has been eluding me and why the 95 has given me so many problems with bass management. I sent the following to Oppo as well, so maybe someone will be able to find out why this is happening.

Played another few hours with this today. I cannot get the levels on SPDIF and analog MCH out the same, but that's OK. They do not have to be the same. There is about an 8 dB difference. But I do have the speakers and sub balanced within each output. And now the real problem becomes more clear. Or if not the "real" problem, the one that bothers me most.

The bass is much better through SPDIF than through analog out. There is more low frequency and impact. Its obvious, not subtle. And has nothing to do with level. Even at 8 dB less, there is no question there is better bass through SPDIF. It "feels" and "sounds" like there is an extra octave on the bottom - or half octave. There is chest resonance through SPDIF, but not through analog.

So, either the analog outs of the 95 are lacking on bottom end (or my unit has a problem - not likely, but always possible), or something in the decode process is very different and not as pleasing (or accurate as I believe) in the 95 vs my 11 year old processor.

I think when it all comes down to it on all my issues with bass management and the 95, this is what the issue is. And this is where my original "thin" comment on CD audio originated, though I did not know it then.

Its easy to hear on any DVD or Blu-ray - Star Wars, Toy Story, Up and even, though more subtle and is heard as the weight of the kick drum, on CD's. Taking the dedicated stereo outs into the proc and redigitizing and decoding there has more weight on the bottom end than using the MCH analogs. With DVD/BD, one does not have to listen closely. It is very obvious.

Took a small diversion to see if there is anything else I would prefer to own for a Blu-ray UD player, and there isn't. So I am more motivated to solve this than ever before.

Any ideas why this is so? I am open to looking for the problem at other than the 95, but it seems to be where it originates.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1015 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 06:38 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Rebop,
Double check that you are using the same crossover frequency for the bass management in the Oppo for multi-channel analog and in the processor for S/PDIF.

Double check in Speaker Configuration in the Oppo to confirm that you have LF/RF set to "Small" and the Subwoofer set to "ON".

Rethink the wiring path from the sub out of the Oppo to the subwoofer to make sure there is no high-pass filter active in that path. For example, are you using the same input on the sub for the analog path and for the S/PDIF path to the sub?

Double check that you have no *OTHER* audio processing happening in the processor on the S/PDIF path. E.g., "loudness" or "dynamics" adjustment?

Verify that bass steering is actually happening in the Oppo by playing a bass tone on the LF channel and comparing what you hear with the sub ON and OFF (I'm talking here about the power switch on the sub itself, not the setting in the Oppo). With the sub OFF you should, of course, hear dramatically less bass. The crossover sweep test on the AIX audio calibration blu-ray is excellent for this. It sweeps a bass tone in LF/RF back and forth either side of the crossover frequencies. If bass steering is happening, the lower end of that should be playing entirely in the sub and the higher end of that entirely in LF/RF. If things are set up correctly then, with the sub powered ON, the volume should be unchanged throughout the frequency range of that sweep.
-Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1016 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 06:41 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Styln's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
Posts: 1,157
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by haverbach View Post

Styln, thanks for your reply. I'll address two points:

It's not quite that I am "dissatisfied" with the Oppo-83SE FL/FR outputs; it's pretty good. But to my ears it is not discernably better than over HDMI in a 2.1 speaker setup. In contrast, I found that the 2-channel stereo outputs of the 83SE were better, but overall neutral sound suffered due to the mid-base peaking that is unavoidable when using the Oppo's 83SE's 2-channel outputs in a 2.1 speaker setup. Consequently, in hindsight, I should not have purchased the 83SE, but the base 83. Since you have found real improvement in the MCH oututs of the 95 vs. the 83SE, that may, indeed, be reason to upgrade.

One further point. You wrote that the new Oppo-95 allows SW output to be adjusted from 40 to 250 Hz. I did not know that. Of course, under the 83SE it was fixed at 80Hz. Since my FR/FL speakers (NHT Classic Threes) probably produce a clean signal down to 60Hz or so (that's only a guess, but a reasonable guess), perhaps the Oppo-95's 2-channel outputs (as well as the SW output) can be used in a 2.1 channel speaker setup if one were to lower the Oppo-95's SW output to about 60Hz, thereby avoiding the bass peak that unavoidably occurs with the 83SE if using the 2-channel outputs in a 2.1channel speaker setup. Any thoughts?

Howard

OK, let's just say your expectations for the 83SE have never been fulfilled That's unfortunate as the 83SE is very inexpensive in audiophile terms and delivers a tremendous amount of value. That said, you have sunk your dagger right in the heart of an 83SE short-coming. IMO, Oppo has heard you and offers restitution in the 95 by delivering:

* Top quality DACS for MCH analog outputs
* Variable cross-over frequencies

Not sure what else they could or should do w/o encroaching on pre/pro territory. I think your decision is clearer and easier than 2.0 analog 83SE owners. You should try a 95 in your system: Oppo built it for you.

The only reason for you not to try the 95 is if you will be abandoning a full analog path. In that case, money is better spent on a new pre-pro/AVR. Frankly, this is an issue that is giving me pause, and why I am looking for ease of use features (specifically DLNA control/renderer or similar support) that would obviate the need for a pre/pro in my system.

But then, as with the DSD/HDMI issue, I am not the best one to be giving advice here. In both cases, I've chosen simplicity through system design: no HDMI and full range speakers. I am satisfied with the benefits and am at peace with the compromises. Hope you find your path and will join me soon

Styln
Styln is offline  
post #1017 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 06:54 PM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Rebop,
Double check that you are using the same crossover frequency for the bass management in the Oppo for multi-channel analog and in the processor for S/PDIF.

Double check in Speaker Configuration in the Oppo to confirm that you have LF/RF set to "Small" and the Subwoofer set to "ON".

Rethink the wiring path from the sub out of the Oppo to the subwoofer to make sure there is no high-pass filter active in that path. For example, are you using the same input on the sub for the analog path and for the S/PDIF path to the sub?

Verify that bass steering is actually happening in the Oppo by playing a bass tone on the LF channel and comparing what you hear with the sub ON and OFF. With the sub OFF you should, of course, hear dramatically less bass. The crossover sweep test on the AIX audio calibration blu-ray is excellent for this. It sweeps a bass tone in LF/RF back and forth either side of the crossover frequencies. If bass steering is happening, the lower end of that should be playing entirely in the sub and the higher end of that entirely in LF/RF. If things are set up correctly then, with the sub powered ON, the volume should be unchanged throughout the frequency range of that sweep.
-Bob

Funny, Oppo just emailed some of the same questions.

OK, both proc and 95 have crossover set to 80. Not adjustable on the proc, but I did try 60 on the 95 as my speakers are flat to at least 45. No discernible difference. If anything, preferred 80.

All speakers set to small on both.

Sub is definitely on.

Wiring is as follows:

5.1 MCH analog out to in on proc which is a pass through. Sub out on proc feeds a BFD which feeds the sub amp.

Stereo analog outs to proc stereo in on one audio input pair. The rest follows identically. But these are not pass through. Being redigitized - which should not ad more bottom than is there.

Same input on the sub, coming from same output on BFD fed by same output of the proc.

THX has a similar sweep for sub phase that performs as expected.

I wish you could hear this. You would have no doubt something is amiss. Its like hearing a good sub and being impressed. Then hearing AND feeling a great sub and that physical sensation that a small sub just does not develop. Which is why I am thinking maybe there is a high pass on the analog sub out - even if its at 20 or 25Hz could be making the difference I am hearing / feeling. Could even be higher s the lowest thud of kick drum is missing as well as chest resonance.

~Bob
rebop is offline  
post #1018 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 07:02 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Rebop,
I've run out of things to suggest. If Oppo doesn't have an answer for you then you may indeed have a faulty analog board.

The way to know for sure of course is to run a bass sweep on LF/RF that actually goes that low. The problem is, you can't really judge that stuff by ear and the SPL meter is useless down there.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1019 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 07:08 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 28,059
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 623 Post(s)
Liked: 1028
Rebop,
One thing you might try while waiting for Oppo to come up with a better answer is to try wiring the sub output of the Oppo *DIRECTLY* to the input of the sub -- the same sub input you are currently using when playing stuff on the S/PDIF path. That is bypass BOTH the processor and the BFD.

Now, first double check the analog path sub volume against the mains on the analog path. I hope you can do that without the BFD in the path -- i.e., with a volume control on the sub itself. Don't worry about balancing it with the digital side.

Now play your test CD track on the analog path and see if that lower octave is back.

If so, then there is a subsonic filter either in the processor or in the BFD that's affecting that analog path. Typically a subsonic protection filter will kick in somewhere in the range of 20-30Hz and block bass below that.

By the way, it is a rare CD indeed that has anything down that low.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #1020 of 11320 Old 02-19-2011, 07:42 PM
Member
 
rebop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Palo Alto, CA USA
Posts: 161
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Rebop,
One thing you might try while waiting for Oppo to come up with a better answer is to try wiring the sub output of the Oppo *DIRECTLY* to the input of the sub -- the same sub input you are currently using when playing stuff on the S/PDIF path. That is bypass BOTH the processor and the BFD.

Now, first double check the analog path sub volume against the mains on the analog path. I hope you can do that without the BFD in the path -- i.e., with a volume control on the sub itself. Don't worry about balancing it with the digital side.

Now play your test CD track on the analog path and see if that lower octave is back.

If so, then there is a subsonic filter either in the processor or in the BFD that's affecting that analog path. Typically a subsonic protection filter will kick in somewhere in the range of 20-30Hz and block bass below that.

By the way, it is a rare CD indeed that has anything down that low.
--Bob

This is not an easy test to do in my setup. Maybe next weekend when I am back. But both signals go through the BFD from the same output on the proc, so why would it affect one and not the other? Does not make sense. And without bass EQ, I will likely have gross room modes that may make this difficult to hear. And I can measure output of the BFD down to 18 Hz adding large corrections for the RS Meter. So no high pass there I am sure.

I do agree on CD's not having anything this low. That is why I said it is subtle on CD. But not subtle on DVD / BD. I am not as concerned about that as DVD/BD. There it is dramatic and really affects the experience. I think I tried CD just to see what happened on the 2 channel analogs, but the difference between SPDIF and MCH is where it is not even a question something is different.

Now, the only was for me to decode SACD is through MCH. SO I have no other way to compare. But the opening of Dark Side of the Moon feels likes the heart beats are doubling and do not have that room loading pressure I have had on half a dozen other copies whether vinyl, CD, etc. Matter of fact, I will go compare the CD to the SACD and see what that tells me if anything.

I'll post, of course if anything new happens or if Oppo has the solution. This morning I was thinking of returning this, but after I caught myself, there is nothing I would rather have. So it may come down to having to unrack it and take it over to Oppo when I am back in town.



I may do a 24/96 recording of the difference next weekend and put it online. I think my Sony PCM should go down low enough to represent the difference. Maybe not, but maybe...

~Bob
rebop is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Blu Ray Players , Oppo , Oppo Bdp 95 Blu Ray Disc Player



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off