Pioneer Blu-ray players 2011 - BDP-140/BDP-440/BDP-LX55/BDP-53FD - Page 25 - AVS Forum
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post #721 of 1838 Old 10-31-2011, 11:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

Notice that the service manual is for the BDP-52FD AND the BDP-440? This further prooves my point that while the firmware may be different, the hardware is the same! Maybe I'll write a snale-mail letter to the service department about this or something. Sorry for the rant. I just feel like I'm banging my head against a wall trying to get to the bottom of this.

Back in my mind I've always been a bit suspicious about having two Elites and one non-Elite, kind of top heavy. The Asian and European model numbers do strongly indicate that only the LX-55 stands out as the crown. When trying to make a point strongly or complaint, write to the very top person, the CEO of Pioneer USA or whatever, not CS or technical support. I wrote to the CEO of two German car manufacturers to complain and on both occasions it resulted in letter of apology and prompt action to my satisfaction.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #722 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 01:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

... The Asian and European model numbers do strongly indicate that only the LX-55 stands out as the crown ...

At least the European user manual is a combined one for the BDP-140 and the BDP-440 together.
According to this user manual, the only differences between both models are:
the case (weight, dimensions) including FL OFF and PQLS indicator,
DVD-Audio playback,
PQLS.
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post #723 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

You already know the bottom line, it doesn't do what you want.

And so in an act of defiance, you will spend even more money on the top of the line pioneer bd player!

That should wake pioneer up.

lol

I'm confused why the poster even bothers buying a Pioneer player that doesn't do what he wants

The Oppo 93 does it all.
End of story.

Enough people quit rewarding Pioneer for misleading information by not buying their products - maybe that will wake them up

I know I'm done buying their players for a long time. Tired of finding out after making the purchase that something isn't quite the way it was advertized or some hidden limitation. The Oppo has none of these issues. It does what they say it will and instead of making you buy a new player every year to get new features, Oppo adds them with FW updates. Hard to beat that.

Steve
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post #724 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 06:16 AM
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The reasons I prefer the Pioneer over the Oppo are:

1. The Oppo uses the MT8530. The MT8555 used in these new Pioneer players is the latest version of the chipset. I believe that the brain of the player is everything. Also, being that this is the latest version of the chipset, it could increase the chance of things being added to the firmware more easily.

2. While the press release has been missleading in regards to how SACD s handled, I love the speed and functionality for DVD and BD movie playback.

3. I can hear a difference when PQLS is engaged. The Oppo doesn't have PQLS.

4. This is the first player I've seen that will actually let me play WAV files on DVD+RDL. That is the equivalent of ten or eleven CDs without any compression!

To make a long story short, I believe the goods outweigh all the bads. It's just that I was excited about the PQLS with high-resolution PCM at 176.4 KHz/24 bit. I thought I was finally going to hear SACDs near their full potential. Oh well, at least 88.2 KHz with PQLS is better than 88.2 KHz without it. Who knows, maybe the BDP-53FD/LX55 will be able to do 176.4 when using the HDMI SUB output, supposedly designed mainly for audio use. Currently, I watch movies more than listen to music,. I guess I was a little surprised that I wasn't getting the SACD processing as stated.
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post #725 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 06:41 AM
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Since the BDP-440 and BDP-52FD are basically the same machine I wanted to chime in here. I bought the 52FD a couple days ago and have been fighting with it to get it on my home network to stream files from my home server. It won't even work with DLNA enabled (freezes up constantly) and can't access the internet (even though it gets an IP address from my router) with DLNA disabled so it won't freeze up.

Long story short the network portion of the Pioneer players doesn't seem to work. I tried everything, even putting the Pioneer in a DMZ in the router so it should be completely outside of any firewall and it still can't access the internet. I know the network cable used works as I had a WD TV Live using the same cable streaming files and accessing YouTube for a year (with no fighting required, I plugged it in and it worked). It is getting returned and I am ordering an Oppo player today.

The convenience of having everything stored on my server to easily pull up and play far outweighs any advantages to having the latest chipset in my opinion. It is a shame too, because of all the network issues I didn't even bother playing an actual blu-ray disk or SACD on it to see how well the rest of it worked.
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post #726 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

3. I can hear a difference when PQLS is engaged. The Oppo doesn't have PQLS.

true that.

The sad thing is it's taken this many years since Pioneer's salad days of the DV-59AVi and 79AVi players to get all this PQLS capability. I completely understand your motives.

That's why I still have my Ilink'd 59AVi player and the SC-09 with Ilink. I do think with movies, the difference without PQLS is negligible maybe even inaudible Noises, car crashes, guns & rockets, I don't think PQLS is going to mean much - the tiny bit of HDMI jitter is lost in the noise

For music, especially SACD, PQLS is nice.

Steve
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post #727 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 07:24 AM
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Quote:


Also, being that this is the latest version of the chipset, it could increase the chance of things being added to the firmware more easily.

If history is any indication, oppo is more likely to update the firmware than pioneer

now whether the new chipset is 'easier' to update, i doubt, but it might have new features - of course once again, you are relying on pioneer to actually enable them

let's see how long it takes for the firmware to be released to fix the chapter not showing

Quote:


2. While the press release has been missleading in regards to how SACD s handled, I love the speed and functionality for DVD and BD movie playback.

i don't think the pioneer is demonstrably better speed wise than its contemporaries


Quote:


4. This is the first player I've seen that will actually let me play WAV files on DVD+RDL. That is the equivalent of ten or eleven CDs without any compression!

i believe the oppo 93 will

http://wiki.oppodigital.com/index.ph...edia_Files_FAQ

Quote:


Currently, I watch movies more than listen to music,.

so basically you are buying the BDP-53fd because it has PQLS (which the BDP-440 also has for $100 less)

but don't you think your experience with trying to figure out 176.4KHz PCM playback is some kind of indication of what you can expect with the BDP-53fd?
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post #728 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 08:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

If history is any indication, oppo is more likely to update the firmware than pioneer

now whether the new chipset is 'easier' to update, i doubt, but it might have new features - of course once again, you are relying on pioneer to actually enable them

let's see how long it takes for the firmware to be released to fix the chapter not showing



i don't think the pioneer is demonstrably better speed wise than its contemporaries




i believe the oppo 93 will

http://wiki.oppodigital.com/index.ph...edia_Files_FAQ



so basically you are buying the BDP-53fd because it has PQLS (which the BDP-440 also has for $100 less)

but don't you think your experience with trying to figure out 176.4KHz PCM playback is some kind of indication of what you can expect with the BDP-53fd?

The reason I'm thinking my chances of 176.4 might be better with the BDP-53FD is that the HDMI MAIN output is designed for video and the HDMI SUB output is mainly designed for audio. I'm thinking that the MAIN has the Marvell circuitry, while the SUB has advanced circuitry for audio processing.
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post #729 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

The reason I'm thinking my chances of 176.4 might be better with the BDP-53FD is that the HDMI MAIN output is designed for video and the HDMI SUB output is mainly designed for audio. I'm thinking that the MAIN has the Marvell circuitry, while the SUB has advanced circuitry for audio processing.

i doubt there is any 'advanced circuitry' on the sub that isn't on the other players - is there any indication anywhere that is the case? Wishful thinking?

there maybe some hdmi issues solved by having audio on one and video on the other

i suppose there is a firmware upgrade....possibility - one could even dream that the delay in the 53fd was due in part to pioneer fixing problems identified in the other players - and that the 53fd will have a lower price and be delivered by flying unicorns

so in spite of the fact there is nothing in the Pioneer USA literature, press release & brochure, online specs

or nothing in the Pioneer Japan manual for the LX-55 or online specs

and it obviously doesn't exist in the 140/440/52fd you expect 176.4 pcm to show up in the bdp-53fd?

and when it doesn't, you will still keep it? or will you return it like your 52fd?

maybe that sends a message to Pioneer, everyone buys them and returns them....hmmmm

or will you simply keep it and complain that a feature that was mentioned in a european press release didn't show up in US player in spite of there being no indication in documentation or real life testing to indicate that it exists?
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post #730 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big C View Post

The reason I'm thinking my chances of 176.4 might be better with the BDP-53FD is that the HDMI MAIN output is designed for video and the HDMI SUB output is mainly designed for audio. I'm thinking that the MAIN has the Marvell circuitry, while the SUB has advanced circuitry for audio processing.

I would highly doubt that this would be true.

Dual HDMI outputs for HDMI v1.4 have been an accommodation for legacy pre-pro's or AVR's to deal with 3D video. The "MAIN" or HDMI 1 still has the same audio as the "HDMI SUB" audio.

If there were to be some form of "advanced" audio processing, I can't think of any good reason why a manufacture would not offer such processing on both HDMI outputs; especially the main outputs as both outputs would share the same HDMI Transmitter/Receiver unit.

My guess is that under the hood the BDP-52FD and 53FD are more alike than different. I bet they even run the same firmware like the BDP-05/51 did.
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post #731 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

...or will you simply keep it and complain that a feature that was mentioned in a european press release didn't show up in US player in spite of there being no indication in documentation or real life testing to indicate that it exists?

yeah

yours truly had to call Chris Walker to tell him that the Aussie site had wrong and misleading information on their BDP-09/LX91 player, used with their Susano flagship receiver.

Just because it's on their web site or a press release doesn't mean it's true or will ever be true. Don't count on most mfgs. giving out updates to implement some feature that isn't there yet. If a feature is that important to you, buy the product that already has it or has a track record, like Oppo, of regularly updating their players with FW. With Pioneer, it's a crapshoot.

I've found that out the hard way with Pioneer. Like "USB upgradeable" firmware on the SC-09 when no such capability existed. That one was put right on their product spec sheet for all to read

If anyone wants to know why I've soured a bit on Pio, you have some of the answer.

"and when it doesn't, you will still keep it? or will you return it like your 52fd?
maybe that sends a message to Pioneer, everyone buys them and returns them"

Couldn't agree more.

Steve
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post #732 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 09:49 AM
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i would opine that someone buying the pio over the oppo strictly to get pqls is not seeing the forest for the trees...

but then again, i don't "miss" having pqls in any way... it's easily arguable that anything it does is well below the threshhold of audibility... and even more easily arguable that even if there IS a smidgen of audibility, that smidgen is easily dwarfed by the other issues that virtually all of us have...

ime, after using pqls for quite awhile, it's completely a placebo effect... whereas the multitudes of advantages the oppo has are tangible...

i'm a former pio ho'... but i wouldn't have touched one of their bdp's even before i changed my fanboy allegiances over to another cem...

ime/imo/ymmv... note that i'm the one who finally talked steve into buying an oppo...

edit: as far as "one hdmi out being optimized for audio"... nope... they couldn't do that even if they wanted to... tmds doesn't work that way...

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post #733 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

... maybe that sends a message to Pioneer, everyone buys them and returns them ...

I've already done it.
So, come on boys and girls! Buy them and return them.
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post #734 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 10:36 AM
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PQLS is definitely not a placebo affect. Espeically on acoustical rock/strings and classical. And it is a must have for me. I listen to more music than anything, and if the 53 is a universal player with pqls, sign me up. The best description I can give PQLS is that it acts like a magnifying glass for music. Everything is just a bit more in focus and at least on my set up it brings out details in strings very well.
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post #735 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 10:49 AM
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^^^

like i said, ime... i used it extensively...

fwiw, i'm almost exclusively a classical listener...

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post #736 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 10:58 AM
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Which receiver\\speakers were you using with it?
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post #737 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 11:06 AM
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^^^

a susano...

various speakers... sound calibration done by umr...*

won't get into the whole "the system wasn't resolving enough" routine, either... audible effects of jitter is well-studied, and a cursory search of this forum will provide enough white papers on the topic....

* my pre-audyssey days... i find that i don't need him any longer... too bad, i always enjoyed his company...

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post #738 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 11:14 AM
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May be your setup then, I'm running an SC-07, not in the same league with yours, with Klipsch RF-35s and as a critical listener, I can hear a difference. I have musical ears though and I hear lots of white level noise other people can't hear. Hell I can hear my neighbors garage three houses down open from the electrical pitch of the garage door motor. Blessing and a curse.
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post #739 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 11:48 AM
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Hi Everyone,

Sorry for taking so long to get the correct information on this issue.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is connected a Pioneer AVR (confirmed with a VSX-1120 and SC-57)that can decode SACD internally 2-Channel content can be played back at 176.4KHz. Multi-Channel SACD content can be played back at 88.2KHz.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is internally decoding SACD to PCM it is output over HDMI as 44.1KHz or 88.2KHz 16,20,24-bit depending on the connected AVR's capability (EDID Info).

The press release on Europe's Website is incorrect. I am requesting that it be changed.

Please note that in order to get DSD decoding at 176.4KHz in some of our AVR's (VSX-1120 for example), it must be set to Pure Direct mode. If set to another mode it will only be at 88.2KHz.

Again sorry for the confusion..

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics
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post #740 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 12:01 PM
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Hi Chris,

Any word on the SACD 2-CH / M-CH and CD layer to SACD layer switching issues I've adressed elsewhere?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21081545

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post21121610

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post21128865

Thanks for your assistance in this matter.

Sincerely,
Tim Balvanz
Custom Electronics, Inc.
Omaha, NE


Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for taking so long to get the correct information on this issue.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is connected a Pioneer AVR (confirmed with a VSX-1120 and SC-57)that can decode SACD internally 2-Channel content can be played back at 176.4KHz. Multi-Channel SACD content can be played back at 88.2KHz.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is internally decoding SACD to PCM it is output over HDMI as 44.1KHz or 88.2KHz 16,20,24-bit depending on the connected AVR's capability (EDID Info).

The press release on Europe's Website is incorrect. I am requesting that it be changed.

Please note that in order to get DSD decoding at 176.4KHz in some of our AVR's (VSX-1120 for example), it must be set to Pure Direct mode. If set to another mode it will only be at 88.2KHz.

Again sorry for the confusion..

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

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post #741 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

... When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is internally decoding SACD to PCM it is output over HDMI as 44.1KHz or 88.2KHz 16,20,24-bit depending on the connected AVR's capability (EDID Info).

The press release on Europe's Website is incorrect ...

Thank you very much for the clarification:
Internally decoding SACD to PCM output over HDMI will be maximal 88.2 kHz, independent of stereo or multichannel.

Any word on the No track number on player display issue?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post20978484
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21123259
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post #742 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drSeehas View Post

Thank you very much for the clarification:
Internally decoding SACD to PCM output over HDMI will be maximal 88.2 kHz, independent of stereo or multichannel.

Any word on the No track number on player display issue?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post20978484
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post21123259

Working on it.......
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post #743 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Working on it.......


Waiting for it......


......FLAC and ISO support also




I remember the BDP-LX52 has info about bit depth and sample rate PCM audio track (eg 24bit/96kHz), a very useful feature. Are the chances for new players?
I have a high-end stereo equipment, not multichannel receiver
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post #744 of 1838 Old 11-01-2011, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drago44 View Post


Waiting for it......

......FLAC and ISO support also

I remember the BDP-LX52 has info about bit depth and sample rate PCM audio track (eg 24bit/96kHz), a very useful feature. Are the chances for new players?
I have a high-end stereo equipment, not multichannel receiver

Pioneer Asia seems to be making it clear, flac only in the bdplx55 so assume 53fd too

iso support could just turn out to be another pio Europe 'typo'

https://picasaweb.google.com/1054653...59481092242562
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post #745 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 12:21 AM
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Doesn't make sense the flagship SC-57 can't do 176.4 kHz MCH - presumably the usual lack of DSP power excuse. Looks like Pioneer this year will lose both player and AVR sale to me. I'd like to upgrade my 10 year old non-HDMI AVR and this would be a lost opportunity, as I'll otherwise consider a Denon 3312 at half the cost of a SC-55. Then there's no more use getting a matching player for PQLS.

I don't need anything the O brand players offer and I have more than enough players to keep me going. If O brand is for you, or if you don't believe in audio rate control, fine but no need to invade other threads to trash on other brands and promote the O brand. Pioneer does seem to leave a lot of lasting bitterness in some people.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #746 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 01:50 AM
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one can appreciate all of your concerns about SACD and PQLS playback but imagine that your brand new player (already replaced) would make your AVR switch off and on every 30 minutes, no matter what source you play, and the reason would be a LAN connection....
it is confirmed that the BDP-440 troubles AVRs if LAN connection is present...I tried mine with LAN back in and DLNA OFF, as advised by Pio EU in my previous post, the VSX-1120 dropped out and turned right back on twice in 30 minutes...once I disconnected LAN, everything was just allright...
I´m really curious what solution can Pio EU come up with in order to fix such stupid behavior...
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post #747 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Walkamo View Post

Hi Everyone,

Sorry for taking so long to get the correct information on this issue.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is connected a Pioneer AVR (confirmed with a VSX-1120 and SC-57)that can decode SACD internally 2-Channel content can be played back at 176.4KHz. Multi-Channel SACD content can be played back at 88.2KHz.

When the BDP-52FD/BDP-140 is internally decoding SACD to PCM it is output over HDMI as 44.1KHz or 88.2KHz 16,20,24-bit depending on the connected AVR's capability (EDID Info).

The press release on Europe's Website is incorrect. I am requesting that it be changed.

Please note that in order to get DSD decoding at 176.4KHz in some of our AVR's (VSX-1120 for example), it must be set to Pure Direct mode. If set to another mode it will only be at 88.2KHz.

Again sorry for the confusion..

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

The Yamaha BD-A1010 uses an older version of the MediaTek chipset, the MT8530, yet it can output SACDs as multi-channel PCM at 176.4 KHz. Would it be possible to ask Japan to look into a firmware update that would allow the new Pioneer Blu-ray players to output SACDs as multi-channel PCM at 176.4 KHz/24 bit or 32 bit with PQLS? Or is this a hardware limitation on Pioneer's part that cannot be easily corrected?
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post #748 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 06:28 AM
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Originally Posted by purdyd View Post

You already know the bottom line, it doesn't do what you want.

And so in an act of defiance, you will spend even more money on the top of the line pioneer bd player!

That should wake pioneer up.

hilarious. get 'em electronics ghandi.
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post #749 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jleholeho View Post

one can appreciate all of your concerns about SACD and PQLS playback but imagine that your brand new player (already replaced) would make your AVR switch off and on every 30 minutes, no matter what source you play, and the reason would be a LAN connection....
it is confirmed that the BDP-440 troubles AVRs if LAN connection is present...I tried mine with LAN back in and DLNA OFF, as advised by Pio EU in my previous post, the VSX-1120 dropped out and turned right back on twice in 30 minutes...once I disconnected LAN, everything was just allright...
I´m really curious what solution can Pio EU come up with in order to fix such stupid behavior...

It actually turns the power off? Then back on again?

Do you have the network turn on from standby feature enabled? How about control over hdmi, is that one?

You would have to suspect something being sent over the Ethernet as the trigger

If you could put an Ethernet sniffer on the network and capture what happens in a complete on/off cycle, I bet that would really help pio out a bunch. If they can only get it to happen once every 7 days that is going to hinder their effort to get to the root cause.
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post #750 of 1838 Old 11-02-2011, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

Doesn't make sense the flagship SC-57 can't do 176.4 kHz MCH - presumably the usual lack of DSP power excuse. Looks like Pioneer this year will lose both player and AVR sale to me. I'd like to upgrade my 10 year old non-HDMI AVR and this would be a lost opportunity, as I'll otherwise consider a Denon 3312 at half the cost of a SC-55. Then there's no more use getting a matching player for PQLS.

I don't need anything the O brand players offer and I have more than enough players to keep me going. If O brand is for you, or if you don't believe in audio rate control, fine but no need to invade other threads to trash on other brands and promote the O brand. Pioneer does seem to leave a lot of lasting bitterness in some people.

I just bought my second receiver a sc55 and still have my 1014

What I find frustrating is that you can't assume anything about the capabilities. For instance, keyboard support for entering letters, you can do that on the receiver for naming inputs and while it does work for entering in account information for pandora, etc., only the arrow keys are active.

Flac files can only be used from a dlna server not USB and jpeg is USB and not dlna

Dsd->PCM at 176 for stereo and 88 for mch is yet another example

So whole machine is filled with caveats and in the case of dsd->PCM undocumented gotchas

That does not engender a lot of goodwill with owners
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