All 1080p is not created equal - a Blu-ray Player Benchmark - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 108 Old 02-20-2014, 04:19 PM
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Here ya go-
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1399154/darbee-vision-darblet

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post #92 of 108 Old 03-03-2014, 06:27 PM
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Since I'm building my 'retirement' home theater system (including Philharmonic 3 speakers, a Denon 4520ci, etc) I've been looking at all our equipment.  I looked at DVD audio and SACD since coming on the forum but my BD player doesn't support it.  I have a Samsung BD-E5900 that I got because it was the same brand as our new 3d TV we got about a year ago.  I didn't do much research - it was relatively inexpensive and I wanted to start playing 3d Blu-rays quick.

 

Now that I'm doing all the research, I'm looking at that player.  Just how much of a difference does the blu-ray player make?

 

Would I benefit from getting an Oppo-103?  Looks like the Oppo-105 offers better Dacs - worth double the price?  What about the Darbee option on both?

 

TIA,

Tony

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post #93 of 108 Old 03-03-2014, 07:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Wilkins 99 View Post

Just how much of a difference does the blu-ray player make?

All players should produce very similar images for Blu-ray.
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Would I benefit from getting an Oppo-103?  Looks like the Oppo-105 offers better Dacs - worth double the price?  

What's your audio setup? The player DACs matter only if you are using analog output. Not used for HDMI.
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What about the Darbee option on both?

That's a big topic. Darbee is a subtle effect when used properly. See the links in the first post of the BDP-103D thread for reviews.

-Bill
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post #94 of 108 Old 03-03-2014, 07:40 PM
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All players should produce very similar images for Blu-ray.
What's your audio setup? The player DACs matter only if you are using analog output. Not used for HDMI.
That's a big topic. Darbee is a subtle effect when used properly. See the links in the first post of the BDP-103D thread for reviews.

-Bill

My audio setup isn't setup yet.  The Phil 3's will be teamed with a Philharmonitor center with amp/processing from the Denon 4520ci and hooked up HDMI (unless analog has some advantage).  I'll look up the 103D reviews.

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post #95 of 108 Old 07-12-2014, 02:13 AM
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does it really make a difference ?

Hi

If I connect a BD player via HDMI to Denon X2000 avr - will a $100 player Vs a $200 player Vs a $300 player really make a difference.
I am not interested in 3d. wifi is optional as the avr doesnt have wifi , so will anyways have to put in a wifi bridge. ditto for the plethora of streaming options as again the avr/TV is fairly equipped with these options.

so am looking at the fundamental capability of audio/video playback of BD/DVDs via a fully digital interface like HDMI.

the more I read , the more it seems like that with an HDMI/pure digital connection, there will NOT be major difference of output from BD players of various price range.

so if I look at a bare bone sony 1100 or a costlier panasonic 230 or a pioneer 160 or a philips 5600 ....will I get perceptible difference in audio/video qlty given my setup.
if yes the what should look at ....

Thx

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post #96 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 01:59 AM
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Over the years the only real difference i have seen between low and high cost DVD/Blu-Ray players, is the load times, everything thing else looks the same. Then again, i'm not giving up my Oppo for a Magnavox player.

Seriously, for that nice shiny blue Blu-Ray sticker to be put on a player it must pass all of the Blu-Ray Disk Associations(BDA) specifications. So a $50 player on HDMI will play the movie as well as a $1,500 Oppo on HDMI will, again the only difference will be disk load times.
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post #97 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 02:12 AM
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I like to believe that when you get to the higher-end players (particularly the Oppos), the construction quality and parts quality is "theoretically" better than it would be in a $99 Samsung. In truth, the transports are all kinda crappy these days. I'm very cynical when it comes to build quality these days. You can make a very good case that media players of all kinds have sort of turned into the electronic equivalent of Bic pens: they're cheap, you throw them out, and you buy new ones.

I would also say there are more picture and sound options on the higher end players, particularly when it comes to the tweaky stuff. Does it matter? Not a lot, but if cost were no object, I don't have a problem buying (say) an Oppo 105.

I just looked in a storage room and saw a small pile of $2000 and $3000 DVD players from the late 1990s/early 2000s, all ready to be taken to the recycler. This crap is totally worthless nowadays due to Blu-ray. One wonders if you buy a $1000 or $1500 Blu-ray player today what it's gonna be worth if and when a 4K disc format comes out. But I'm kind of skeptical in general of the long-range lifespan of physical media anyway.
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post #98 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Marc Wielage View Post
I like to believe that when you get to the higher-end players (particularly the Oppos), the construction quality and parts quality is "theoretically" better than it would be in a $99 Samsung. In truth, the transports are all kinda crappy these days. I'm very cynical when it comes to build quality these days. You can make a very good case that media players of all kinds have sort of turned into the electronic equivalent of Bic pens: they're cheap, you throw them out, and you buy new ones.
There's a difference between having the same bluray picture quality (or so similar it's hard to tell the difference on most small screens) and having the same build quality.

As CinemaAndy noted, there is a huge difference between an Oppo and a Bic pen player. The build quality and great support are not theoretical - a simple test is to order one, inspect it and return it within the return time.

I bought my parents an Oppo BDP-80, Oppo's short lived low end option (250 at the time) three years ago. That thing has quietly performed for two acknowledged technophobes. It has played everything they wanted to watch, without a hiccup.

It should keep going for the foreseeable future, so in due time, the money spent should be amortized over several possible disposable players. For as long as physical media players live.

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I would also say there are more picture and sound options on the higher end players, particularly when it comes to the tweaky stuff. Does it matter? Not a lot, but if cost were no object, I don't have a problem buying (say) an Oppo 105.
It depends on why you buy a great player. Bluray quality only is not enough. If that's all you want, buy a reasonably good player for 100+ and you're done.

If you want other features, not just tweaks, like using it as a video processor for lesser signals, for use as a network player, as a great music player, etc.

There are tweaks as well, but again - you have to know why you're buying one and make sure it is important enough to fork over the extra money. For me it was (twice).

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I just looked in a storage room and saw a small pile of $2000 and $3000 DVD players from the late 1990s/early 2000s, all ready to be taken to the recycler. This crap is totally worthless nowadays due to Blu-ray. One wonders if you buy a $1000 or $1500 Blu-ray player today what it's gonna be worth if and when a 4K disc format comes out. But I'm kind of skeptical in general of the long-range lifespan of physical media anyway.
I have two players, paid 500 for the first (BDP-83) and 600 for the second (BDP-103D). I'm using both fully, network media, video processing, streaming, etc.

So we're not talking 1500 a piece, unless you want the analog processing - I'm strictly HDMI.

Again, the decision to buy is based on what you want from it. If you don't need or want more than bluray disks, then a cheap player will do, accepting its limitations.
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post #99 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 06:35 PM
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There's a difference between having the same bluray picture quality (or so similar it's hard to tell the difference on most small screens) and having the same build quality.
I think we're both saying the same things in different ways. I agree entirely, and I think getting top build quality is very important for many people.

At the same time, on the occasions where my $1000+ Blu-ray player won't play a disc, I wind up having to turn to my $250 player or my $89 player. You'd be surprised how sometimes, only the cheap one can get past bad authoring or bad pressings.

It's alarming how wonky the transports are nowadays. I think Oppo stays on top of this far better than most companies, but I'm dismayed at the downward spiral in prices and construction quality in all things electronics nowadays. It's very discouraging, especially for people who care and for people who know the difference.
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post #100 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 06:59 PM
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I think we're both saying the same things in different ways. I agree entirely, and I think getting top build quality is very important for many people.

At the same time, on the occasions where my $1000+ Blu-ray player won't play a disc, I wind up having to turn to my $250 player or my $89 player. You'd be surprised how sometimes, only the cheap one can get past bad authoring or bad pressings.

It's alarming how wonky the transports are nowadays. I think Oppo stays on top of this far better than most companies, but I'm dismayed at the downward spiral in prices and construction quality in all things electronics nowadays. It's very discouraging, especially for people who care and for people who know the difference.
It's a difference in company philosophy, I guess. Do you buy commodity things at commodity prices and plan on obsolescence, hoping that you don't have to replace it too often? Or do you buy something built well that may last past its own obsolescence?

I share your feelings about physical formats versus stream/downloaded. I still use CD's / SACD / DVD-Audio on my players, but my daughters think it's "cute" since they've been buying music downloads since they were twelve (they're in their twenties now).

The thing that makes me feel good about my players is that they are kept up to date by Oppo to play the latest formats. If a new one comes up, they will try to get that on the system as a firmware update. I've seen it done many times.

At some point, though the hardware can't deliver the latest and your player will do what you bought it to do. Then you get a new one. I am at four years on my old Oppo, six months on my new. If they are both useful for another four years, I'm fine with that.

You are right - the planned obsolescence that pervades consumer products is a nasty trend. That's why I like the rare companies that swim against that particular tidal wave.
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post #101 of 108 Old 07-14-2014, 08:28 PM
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Again, the decision to buy is based on what you want from it. If you don't need or want more than bluray disks, then a cheap player will do, accepting its limitations.
How about those of us who play DVDs as well as Blu-ray discs. Is it still the story that, for a basic feature set (such as upscaling DVDs) and playing Blu-ray discs, there isn't much difference but the higher price would, hopefully, buy a longer-lived player?

My very humble setup:
Man Cave:Vizio E500i-A1 "Smart TV" (50-in 1080p 120Hz LED/LCD, has Netflix app.), Blu-ray players (Sony BDP-S3100, old LG BD390), Roku (the original model: N1000), PC (Windows 7), Comcast Internet (25Mbps/5Mbps).
Bedroom:LG 32LV3400-UA TV (32-in 768p 60Hz LED/LCD), HD DVR (Motorola RNG200N), Xfinity Comcast cable (Digital Starter Package), DVD/VHS player.
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post #102 of 108 Old 07-15-2014, 08:04 AM
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How about those of us who play DVDs as well as Blu-ray discs. Is it still the story that, for a basic feature set (such as upscaling DVDs) and playing Blu-ray discs, there isn't much difference but the higher price would, hopefully, buy a longer-lived player?
DVD is a different matter, and one reason I bought an Oppo.

I have some great DVD movies that have not (and may never) make it to bluray - The 13th warrior, Lone Star State of Mind, The Milagro Beanfield War....

Good to great DVD upscaling is much more demanding of the quality of the player. It appears the Panasonics do it well, the Oppos do it best.

Bluray has specific requirements that need to be met, so the quality of bluray is pretty uniform even for cheap players. Even before bluray there was a much wider range of DVD quality, and the Oppo players were the best at it.

I think that has continued, with my old 83 as good or better than my newer 103D.

So unfortunately, you need to pay more for great DVD upconversion.
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post #103 of 108 Old 07-15-2014, 08:59 AM
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It's a difference in company philosophy, I guess. Do you buy commodity things at commodity prices and plan on obsolescence, hoping that you don't have to replace it too often? Or do you buy something built well that may last past its own obsolescence?

I share your feelings about physical formats versus stream/downloaded. I still use CD's / SACD / DVD-Audio on my players, but my daughters think it's "cute" since they've been buying music downloads since they were twelve (they're in their twenties now).

The thing that makes me feel good about my players is that they are kept up to date by Oppo to play the latest formats. If a new one comes up, they will try to get that on the system as a firmware update. I've seen it done many times.

At some point, though the hardware can't deliver the latest and your player will do what you bought it to do. Then you get a new one. I am at four years on my old Oppo, six months on my new. If they are both useful for another four years, I'm fine with that.

You are right - the planned obsolescence that pervades consumer products is a nasty trend. That's why I like the rare companies that swim against that particular tidal wave.
If you were talking about a refrigerator or dish washer, I'd agree with you. But we're talking about a device that plays formats that will be obsolete long before the device fails, even if you buy the cheapest one. I replace my BD players years before they fail because capabilities change so fast. Oppo does a great job trying to keep up. But an update won't make it perform any faster. A new $80 commodity player will load much faster than a 4 year old Oppo. I have 4 year old cheap players as well that are still going strong. So I don't think even Oppo has the advantage there.

As for build quality, while I'd rather have a sturdy metal box instead of plastic, at the end of the day it has zero impact on how the player functions. I can't justify an additional $400 expenditure on aesthetics and features I don't need and will never use. I can fill my house with cheaper, often more capable players for the price of one Oppo. So while Oppo is a fine player, it will never be an option for me. I'm just too cheap.
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post #104 of 108 Old 07-15-2014, 09:14 AM
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If you were talking about a refrigerator or dish washer, I'd agree with you. But we're talking about a device that plays formats that will be obsolete long before the device fails, even if you buy the cheapest one. I replace my BD players years before they fail because capabilities change so fast. Oppo does a great job trying to keep up. But an update won't make it perform any faster. A new $80 commodity player will load much faster than a 4 year old Oppo. I have 4 year old cheap players as well that are still going strong. So I don't think even Oppo has the advantage there.

As for build quality, while I'd rather have a sturdy metal box instead of plastic, at the end of the day it has zero impact on how the player functions. I can't justify an additional $400 expenditure on aesthetics and features I don't need and will never use. I can fill my house with cheaper, often more capable players for the price of one Oppo. So while Oppo is a fine player, it will never be an option for me. I'm just too cheap.
You make a good case for disposables. It's a matter of what you like and value.

The key is as you put it: "I can't justify an additional $400 expenditure on aesthetics and features I don't need and will never use"

I'm not taking it out of context, your message is very good, I just think that's the key. If you value, as I do the features and will / do use them, and you've made a measured evaluation that it is worth it to you, then that's why you spend the extra money.

While aesthetics are good, you can hardly look at an Oppo and call it artwork. As an engineer, a thing well designed is a thing of beauty though, so an Oppo might be that as opposed to some kitschy looking and feeling design. But that's just me - if it didn't perform well I could dispense with any artwork.

It also depends on what your use is. I have a good number of DVD's, so I like to have an excellent upscaler. I have some old HD-DVD's that I'm transitioning to mkv's for safety and convenience (still love my HD-A35), which I can play with both players. Same with SACD's, DVD-A's, FLAC music, etc.

To me, they are important, so bluray only doesn't cut it for me. For others, they are unimportant and they should go for something else.

Since I plan on keeping these and keeping them active for a long time, having accrued a good sized library of bluray titles, I don't see the need to replace them periodically.

The features that my 83 has are enough to keep me satisfied in a bedroom setup for a long time, so having Oppo support there for when it eventually has some issues has value.

Again, to me - I am not interested in putting my choices on anyone else.
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post #105 of 108 Old 07-17-2014, 02:42 AM
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
I agree there are differences in terms of features , build quality and engineering nuances in costlier players.

however my question was a little different i.e. it was in context of the setup I have. Since my AVR (denon x2000) is capable of upscaling + have inputs for the newer formats like DLNA etc .... and some video processing.
so if I am using a digital signal via HDMI then given the AVR , I only need a 'reader' ...(dunno why the AVRs dont have a reader built in or have an add on accessory like an external dvd drive for notebooks).

so in this context , my question was that will I get differential audio/video quality from costlier ones ?

thx

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post #106 of 108 Old 07-17-2014, 06:44 AM
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Thank you all for sharing your thoughts.
I agree there are differences in terms of features , build quality and engineering nuances in costlier players.

however my question was a little different i.e. it was in context of the setup I have. Since my AVR (denon x2000) is capable of upscaling + have inputs for the newer formats like DLNA etc .... and some video processing.
so if I am using a digital signal via HDMI then given the AVR , I only need a 'reader' ...(dunno why the AVRs dont have a reader built in or have an add on accessory like an external dvd drive for notebooks).

so in this context , my question was that will I get differential audio/video quality from costlier ones ?

thx
Who knows if your Denon does a better job than an Oppo at upconverting than an Oppo? It probaby doesn't, at least not from what I've seen. A high end player will have a lot more settings and enhancements than your Denon. I also think you vastly over estimate the other capabilities of the Denon. Over DLNA it only plays audio, not video. And while the upscaling looks pretty good, it doesn't work miracles.

I'm not one for a lot of artificial enhancement anyway. So I turn off all effects in my player and pass the signal as it was stored on the disc (except DVD, which I do let the player at least upconvert). Since I wouldn't use any of the processing on a high end player, like in your case, there is no benefit to me buying one. I don't leave 480i DVD upconversion to my Denon (which is nearly identical to yours). My cheap player does a better job, IMO. I haven't done any scientific tests though. I'm just eyeballing it. My main use for upconversion on Denon is from SD analog sources to 1080p HDMI. In that regard, it does an excellent job and gets rid of a lot of cables and complexity.

The question you need to ask is if a nearly imperceptible gain in DVD picture quality is worth several hundred dollars to you. To some audiophiles/videophiles, a 1% improvement is worth tens of thousands of dollars. So if that's you, then you need to buy a high end player. In my experience, Denon doesn't outperform even a cheap player in that regard.
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post #107 of 108 Old 07-17-2014, 06:48 AM
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^^ +1
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post #108 of 108 Old 07-18-2014, 12:37 PM
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Cool differences in hdmi video output?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tag1017 View Post
Hi

If I connect a BD player via HDMI to Denon X2000 avr - will a $100 player Vs a $200 player Vs a $300 player really make a difference.
I am not interested in 3d. wifi is optional as the avr doesnt have wifi , so will anyways have to put in a wifi bridge. ditto for the plethora of streaming options as again the avr/TV is fairly equipped with these options.

so am looking at the fundamental capability of audio/video playback of BD/DVDs via a fully digital interface like HDMI.

the more I read , the more it seems like that with an HDMI/pure digital connection, there will NOT be major difference of output from BD players of various price range.

so if I look at a bare bone sony 1100 or a costlier panasonic 230 or a pioneer 160 or a philips 5600 ....will I get perceptible difference in audio/video qlty given my setup.
if yes the what should look at ....

Thx
Based upon everything I have read and experienced, although test equipment can pinpoint fairly minor video differences in hdmi output from various blu-ray players, you will be hard pressed to actually see any differences in video quality during real world usage. Features and reliability are a different matter, of course, and probably a better way to decide how much to spend on a player. Pay attention to firmware reliability as well as hardware. I generally lean towards Sony or Panasonic.

A long-time audio/video addict!
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