What features would you like in your next Oppo BR - e.g. Oppo BDP-113 and BDP-115. - Page 28 - AVS Forum
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post #811 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post

It would make less noise on startup (no spinning) it might also require less fan cooling (less noise) and less power and be a little less expensive.

I have a 103 and I don't get any noise with any discs at start up. The 103 and 105 don't have fans so I'm not sure why you would mention fan noise.

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post #812 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 01:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I have a 103 and I don't get any noise with any discs at start up. The 103 and 105 don't have fans so I'm not sure why you would mention fan noise.

Bill

You are probably right about the fans, I've never bothered to check. I can assure you that all oppos make disc noise if there is a disc in the player on startup. YOU may not be able to hear it but people with good hearing can. Just as many people say their plasma TVs make no noise - they do, they just can't hear them.
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post #813 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post


You are probably right about the fans, I've never bothered to check. I can assure you that all oppos make disc noise if there is a disc in the player on startup. YOU may not be able to hear it but people with good hearing can. Just as many people say their plasma TVs make no noise - they do, they just can't hear them.

I'm not "probably right" I'm definitely right in that the 103 and the 105 DO NOT have fans wink.gif. I have excellent hearing by the way smile.gif. I can easily hear the fan on my 95 when it is running from 8' away. My Panasonic 60" GT50 does make noise (buzzing) which I'm trying to straighten out with Panasonic. So maybe if I put my ear right to the 103 I might hear the disc spinning on start up. But from where I'm sitting 8' away I hear no noise at all from the 103.

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post #814 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by leev View Post

Why are some people obsessed with removing the disc playing element. Oppos rep is based on them being the finest disc players around. This should be built on not abandoned. People who advocate a complete streaming future seem to ignore the collector market and the fact that such a future will see choice and variety collapse. Not to mention the shear level of control studios and government agencies will have over what we can access. Dont destroy the disc market just so you can pirate discs that will soon cease to exist in such a situation.

Yes the next oppo should improve its streaming capability to try to be the leader in that field too. But it should remain true to its core purpose and thats being the best damn disc spinner on the market.

Why remove the disc playing element?

For the same reason that your Oppo player does not have a VHS or BETA tape playing mechanism: it's an historical means with which to play back a media asset.

What I'd like to see Oppo do is what others have already done: create a new line of media player, call it a BDP-111 if you will, that has no disc playback capability but otherwise shares all of the other network or local media playback capabilities as a BDP-113 would. Add in the advantage that there would be no region locking to be concerned about with DVDs or BluRays either.
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post #815 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kimg1453 View Post

Some good points except bea indicating the issue of being a fanatic.

I may have seemed strong in context but what I'm trying to project is that if people continue to give less priority to physical media, it will backfire on us all.

The studios would like nothing more than to do away with physical media. They don't want you owning anything. They want to control what and when you watch something, pull a title from viewing when they want, and charge for every time you watch. And the price will keep going up if this occurs.I can assure you they hate the fact that they are unable to do this with physical media.

I as an avid movie collector want to have access to what, where, when and how I watch and not be paying for every viewing. Hear what I'm saying: This will happen if physical media is abandoned. People need to keep this in mind and support purchase of disc's and not concentrate on streaming, etc.

How much physical space do you need to keep all of those shiny discs?

If you were instead keeping media assets that you downloaded from Amazon instead, how much physical space would that take up?

What sort of convenience factor is there in having a library of media assets that you've downloaded that you can browse or search from your tablet remote control vs having to stand up and browse your library?

As for the physical media thing backfiring, look at what has already happened with music. In the beginning, everybody wanted you to buy and download some sort of DRM'd music files if you didn't want to buy a CD. Now I go onto Amazon and get MP3 files. The market rejected DRM and got what it wanted. Similarly, you can also download DRM-less FLAC files for high definition music. Whilst you might be afraid of losing control over how you enjoy the media assets that you've bought, it would seem that the market has in the past rejected DRM and thus I expect will in the future too. I suspect that the media people that don't want us owning anything are much much more afraid of DRM-less video content being "for sale" as a download from Amazon than they are of BluRay discs being available.

Physical media is so 20th century.
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post #816 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by rakosnicek View PostHow much physical space do you need to keep all of those shiny discs? If you were instead keeping media assets that you downloaded from Amazon instead, how much physical space would that take up?  What sort of convenience factor is there in having a library of media assets that you've downloaded that you can browse or search from your tablet remote control vs having to stand up and browse your library?

As for the physical media thing backfiring, look at what has already happened with music. In the beginning, everybody wanted you to buy and download some sort of DRM'd music files if you didn't want to buy a CD. Now I go onto Amazon and get MP3 files. The market rejected DRM and got what it wanted. Similarly, you can also download DRM-less FLAC files for high definition music. Whilst you might be afraid of losing control over how you enjoy the media assets that you've bought, it would seem that the market has in the past rejected DRM and thus I expect will in the future too. I suspect that the media people that don't want us owning anything are much much more afraid of DRM-less video content being "for sale" as a download from Amazon than they are of BluRay discs being available.

Physical media is so 20th century.

Agreed just like books :)

 

Here are the issues none of the movies streaming have the audio quality of Blu Rays!  Until The movie studios allow for digital download of blu ray we will have physical media! Even Kaleidescape which charges an arm and a leg requires you to have a vault for Blu Ray

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post #817 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:18 PM
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With physical discs I don't have to worry about something like disc failure or some idiot accidentally erasing all my media files.

Some of us also like things like liner notes with our music.

There are pluses and minuses to every way to keep music and movies. We all have to decide which individual trade-offs matter most to us.
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post #818 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Agreed just like books smile.gif

Here are the issues none of the movies streaming have the audio quality of Blu Rays!  Until The movie studios allow for digital download of blu ray we will have physical media! Even Kaleidescape which charges an arm and a leg requires you to have a vault for Blu Ray
The picture quality of streaming can't compete with BluRay yet either. IMO, we're at least a few generations of players away from streaming / downloading being a realistic replacement for players that play shiny discs. This obviously ignores illegal downloads of ripped Blurays, but everyone obtaining their media in that manner wouldn't bode well for long term availability of movies in any format.
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

With physical discs I don't have to worry about something like disc failure or some idiot accidentally erasing all my media files.

Some of us also like things like liner notes with our music.

There are pluses and minuses to every way to keep music and movies. We all have to decide which individual trade-offs matter most to us.
You actually do have to worry about disc failure - your Blurays could easily get scratched to the point where they won't play and I've had some CD's die over time that don't have any obvious physical damage. The problems with the CD's were noticed when I was going through ripping them all to FLAC.
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post #819 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rakosnicek View Post

Why remove the disc playing element?

For the same reason that your Oppo player does not have a VHS or BETA tape playing mechanism: it's an historical means with which to play back a media asset.
Bluray discs haven't become extinct just yet...
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What I'd like to see Oppo do is what others have already done: create a new line of media player, call it a BDP-111 if you will, that has no disc playback capability but otherwise shares all of the other network or local media playback capabilities as a BDP-113 would. Add in the advantage that there would be no region locking to be concerned about with DVDs or BluRays either.
Unless they completely eliminate players from their lineup that play shiny discs, there's no way they would be able to release a player without region locks (or with ISO support) as they would lose their licensing to build the shiny disc players and/or end up in a big legal battle they'd have no chance of winning.
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post #820 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kimg1453 View Post

In a nutshell:

For all the people that want to ignore physical media for the crappy streaming and the future lose of owning anything, let OPPO or someone else build them a device for that purpose.

For all the avid collectors wanting to own as well has having the best presentation, OPPO needs to keep improving the Blu-ray players, whether it be 2k or 4K . This is their core business and what got them where they are today to begin with.

Mark my word OPPO, if you abandon your basic philosophy and start crapping on the disc portion and catering to those that don't care about quality, collecting, etc, you will go down the tubes eventually.

And if OPPO stopped including streaming because it is an inferior service that you don't need, do you think their players would continue to be attractive to people that get most of their content today through NetFlix, Hulu, etc?

In 5 or 10 years time, do you think people (especially the younger generation) are still going to see disc playback as being what's the most important feature to them or the ability to stream?

For the kids that spend their after school hours surfing youtube rather than watching TV whilst growing up, do you see them being keen on building disc libraries or will be that something that their (grand)parents did and is an anachronism of those born in the 20th century?

In short, I expect that the portion of the community that sees discs as the preferred medium for content will start to diminish and that people will expect to be able to view what they want, when they want, from some source on the network - be it local or remote (Internet).

To go to the extreme model of downloading and streaming where you buy the rights to watch something then it is far more friendly for the consumer's wallet than it is for the label. Why? Because right now you'll likely have to re-purchase a number of media assets that you've bought in 1080p when you get that 4k TV and want to watch them in 4k. If instead you'd bought the rights to watch that media asset on whatever device you have through streaming over the 'net then they don't a second sale and you don't need to re-purchase that asset.

So whilst there will be those that continue to want to buy physical media and a device that will play it, so too there will be a growing market that has no (or little) interest in shiny discs and all of the problems associated with them.
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post #821 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Unless they completely eliminate players from their lineup that play shiny discs, there's no way they would be able to release a player without region locks (or with ISO support) as they would lose their licensing to build the shiny disc players and/or end up in a big legal battle they'd have no chance of winning.

Region locks do not exist in any of the media file formats that I'm aware of so how would they be implemented, never mind enforced? When it comes to ISO files, I'm not really fussed. And perhaps think of it this way: if there is no need to play ISO files then there is no need to care about regions smile.gif Therefore not having ISO support is a good thing smile.gif
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post #822 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 03:46 PM
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You actually do have to worry about disc failure - your Blurays could easily get scratched to the point where they won't play and I've had some CD's die over time that don't have any obvious physical damage. The problems with the CD's were noticed when I was going through ripping them all to FLAC.

I don't have any kids in my house and all of my media are optimally stored so damage to discs is of minimal concern to me. YMMV.

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post #823 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

I don't have any kids in my house and all of my media are optimally stored so damage to discs is of minimal concern to me. YMMV.

Your best effort may not do it. I have well stored HD-DVD disks, and some have started to fail due to some sort of failure of the disk over time.

It's been documented in the HD-DVD thread and there are several disks of mine that have become unplayable (Black Snake Moan, The Shining, a few more). Having seen this, I'm interested in backing things up to my NAS, using them from there.

This is shiny disk movie / music media, so it is a concern. I also have over a hundred HD-DVD's, so it's important to me..
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post #824 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 04:39 PM
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rakosnicek,

I understand your explanation (some good points) and trying to justifying the streaming/download approach.

However, all I'm saying is be forewarned. When and if the time comes that physical media is wiped out, nobody will own anything and you'll be lucky to obtain something on a permanent bases without paying for every viewing. If that happens at least I have my current collection and I'm sure most if not all the movies I have will last for my future needs. As they say: Each to their own. And pleeeessseee, get off the kick about Disc are so 20th Century. Not every advancement will always be better.
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post #825 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rakosnicek View Post

Why remove the disc playing element?

For the same reason that your Oppo player does not have a VHS or BETA tape playing mechanism: it's an historical means with which to play back a media asset.

What I'd like to see Oppo do is what others have already done: create a new line of media player, call it a BDP-111 if you will, that has no disc playback capability but otherwise shares all of the other network or local media playback capabilities as a BDP-113 would. Add in the advantage that there would be no region locking to be concerned about with DVDs or BluRays either.

A crazy comparison. Blu ray remains far and away the best means of watching high quality content and with the imminent arrival of 4k blu ray will remain so. Whats more there remains a vast array of content on cd and dvd that is still being added to on a daily basis. Regards region locking a streaming future of media stored in clouds and on remote servers will give providers content control capabilities that will make region coding on discs seem positively trivial by comparison.

Disc remains the best source for quality and variety and the pleasure of owning something you can hold is real and tangible. Physical media has a sense of quality and value that a stream or download will never attain.
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post #826 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post

I don't have any kids in my house and all of my media are optimally stored so damage to discs is of minimal concern to me. YMMV.
I don't have kids in my house either and I'm very careful with my media too. Despite that, stuff can happen no matter how careful you are.
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post #827 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

Your best effort may not do it. I have well stored HD-DVD disks, and some have started to fail due to some sort of failure of the disk over time.

It's been documented in the HD-DVD thread and there are several disks of mine that have become unplayable (Black Snake Moan, The Shining, a few more). Having seen this, I'm interested in backing things up to my NAS, using them from there.

This is shiny disk movie / music media, so it is a concern. I also have over a hundred HD-DVD's, so it's important to me..

100 HD-DVD whoa talk about betting on the wrong horse eek.gif
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post #828 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 06:29 PM
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Since this is a FUTURE player thread, I'm in the media player camp (MDP-115). Get rid of the restrictions and just play the files like a HTPC but with OPPO's world class execution. Not against a BDP, but it's a different animal serving a different set of requirements/market. I'd likely own both a BDP and a MDP, but the BDP would be to address legacy concerns.

Since I'm mostly interested in audio, I have to say that audio streaming through the BDP-105 is pretty great today! I stream a fair amount of content through DB Power Amp's Asset UPNP server using the built-in internet radio. It's controlled very simply using Bubble UPNP DLNA controller. This is a killer combo that will satisfy any audiophile for both sound quality, convenience, and ease of use.

Understand that video isn't there, yet. But it will be. And this is a FUTURES thread. So give us the MDP with an audio focus for now and a BDP with a video focus until it catches up.

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post #829 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 06:53 PM
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"100 HD-DVD whoa talk about betting on the wrong horse"

Yeah, I feel the same way for buying a boat load of SACDs. I have all my CDs backed-up (for streaming, of course). But I CAN'T backup my SACD discs. Yes, they sound great now, but I quit buying them a couple of years ago for this very reason.

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post #830 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by leev View Post

A crazy comparison. Blu ray remains far and away the best means of watching high quality content and with the imminent arrival of 4k blu ray will remain so. Whats more there remains a vast array of content on cd and dvd that is still being added to on a daily basis. Regards region locking a streaming future of media stored in clouds and on remote servers will give providers content control capabilities that will make region coding on discs seem positively trivial by comparison.

Disc remains the best source for quality and variety and the pleasure of owning something you can hold is real and tangible. Physical media has a sense of quality and value that a stream or download will never attain.

The same was said for BETAMAX when it was introduced and the Laser Discs when they came into being.

They are now both historical (well BETAMAX isn't entirely but it is quickly going that way.)

BluRay discs will eventually go that way too. And I'm not the only one to think so:

http://www.digitaltrends.com/home-theater/streaming-disc-dead-video-blu-ray/

If you really want to stay with discs, it would appear that Archival Discs will be out next year to start replacing BluRay:

http://www.techtimes.com/articles/4251/20140312/sony-and-panasonic-unveil-archival-disc-300gb-1tb-optical-discs-that-can-last-up-to-50-years.htm

So if you want, stay with BluRay, but its days are already numbered.
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post #831 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by kimg1453 View Post

rakosnicek,

I understand your explanation (some good points) and trying to justifying the streaming/download approach.

However, all I'm saying is be forewarned. When and if the time comes that physical media is wiped out, nobody will own anything and you'll be lucky to obtain something on a permanent bases without paying for every viewing. If that happens at least I have my current collection and I'm sure most if not all the movies I have will last for my future needs. As they say: Each to their own. And pleeeessseee, get off the kick about Disc are so 20th Century. Not every advancement will always be better.

You already pay for each viewing of your BluRay movies. e.g. if you buy a BluRay disc and watch that movie once then the sticker price is your "pay to view." Over time if you watch it multiple times then the pay-per-view price goes down but it is never $0.
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post #832 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 07:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

So maybe if I put my ear right to the 103 I might hear the disc spinning on start up. But from where I'm sitting 8' away I hear no noise at all from the 103.

Bill

Sorry to hear about your hearing problem. I have two and I can hear the one in the bedroom at 10' away and the one in the living room from 15' away.
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post #833 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 07:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by leev View Post

A crazy comparison. Blu ray remains far and away the best means of watching high quality content and with the imminent arrival of 4k blu ray will remain so. Whats more there remains a vast array of content on cd and dvd that is still being added to on a daily basis. Regards region locking a streaming future of media stored in clouds and on remote servers will give providers content control capabilities that will make region coding on discs seem positively trivial by comparison.

Disc remains the best source for quality and variety and the pleasure of owning something you can hold is real and tangible. Physical media has a sense of quality and value that a stream or download will never attain.

You are assigning a value you to it that is ethnocentric. Just as many older people will remember with pleasure getting a comic book for their collection, many kids are happier with having their collection on one tablet. I used to be proud of my vast collection of well over 1000 BR and DVDs. Now I'm excited about putting it in storage and having them all stream with no loss of quality from my server. I can stream to two or more rooms simultaneously. The only thing I'm not looking forward to is having to convert all of them. I'm only about 1TB in so far and have about 44TB more to go based on my calculations.
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post #834 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post

Sorry to hear about your hearing problem. I have two and I can hear the one in the bedroom at 10' away and the one in the living room from 15' away.

Really whoa you have Superman hearing can't hear a thing!
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post #835 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:21 PM
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Originally Posted by boe View Post

Sorry to hear about your hearing problem. I have two and I can hear the one in the bedroom at 10' away and the one in the living room from 15' away.
No need to be sorry as I don't have a hearing problem. Maybe you missed what I posted earlier. Tell me how can I hear the fan on my 95 from 8' away if I have a hearing problem? If there was an audible noise of the disc spinning from my 103 like you claim there is then I would hear it. I don't hear it because my 103 doesn't make that noise loud enough to hear from 8' away. I would see about getting an RMA for your Oppos if the noise of a spinning disc can be heard from 10' away.

Bill

My SACD collection, watch it grow and my wallet shrink ;-).

 

Denon 4311 (in preamp mode), Parasound 2100, Boston Acoustics A7200 amp, Oppo BDP-103, Consonance CD120, Panasonic TC-P60GT50 plasma, Panamax 5100EX, Salk Song Towers, Song Center, ADS 300C (surrounds) and two Rythmik F12SEs.
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post #836 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Really whoa you have Superman hearing can't hear a thing!

This is a true story - about 25 years ago I applied for my first big boy job. They had me take a rigorous physical and the after they put me in nasty foam covered room for the hearing test - the physician said - Sheesh! You could hear the grass grow. Unfortunately now that I'm older, while I still listen to the TV at a volume so low my friends find annoying, I do have to pay attention during conversations. I used to be able to listen to several conversations at a get together simultaneously, now for whatever reason I can only pay attention to one at a time. It sucks getting older.
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post #837 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

No need to be sorry as I don't have a hearing problem. Maybe you missed what I posted earlier. Tell me how can I hear the fan on my 95 from 8' away if I have a hearing problem? If there was an audible noise of the disc spinning from my 103 like you claim there is then I would hear it. I don't hear it because my 103 doesn't make that noise loud enough to hear from 8' away. I would see about getting an RMA for your Oppos if the noise of a spinning disc can be heard from 10' away.

Bill

Perhaps - or perhaps you simply can't hear it because you can't hear at that level. I have no doubt fans operate at a different frequency at spinning discs and frequency impacts the noticeability of a sound even if two sounds are at the same decibel, the layout of the room and contents of that room can impact your ability to hear those sounds, the height difference of one player over another can impact your ability to hear it. The contents of the container that the 95 is in may reduce or amplify the sound - likewise with the 103, to a degree there is a line of hearing - perhaps the 93 is unobstructed and the 103 isn't. Did you consider the fan on the 95 is louder than the spinning disc in the 103. Did you consider that dust on the fan blades can throw off balance and increase the sound level of the fan blades due to increased friction. I'm sure there are more factors that impact the ability to perceive sounds but I have little knowledge on that subject.

We could open it up to the group to find out if anyone else can hear it - did we all get a batch of defective oppos in that case or is it just possible you can't hear as well as you think? I can easily read a page in a book at about 3' but have a harder time at 2' is my book defective? Should I RMA it? I used to be able to read it from 2' about 10 years ago, obviously the book has degraded over time. I've given my best example to match the reasoning in your example.

In another 20 years I doubt I'll be able to hear a 103 from across the room even if it doesn't get any louder.
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post #838 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:36 PM
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Boy, it sure is getting condescending in this thread...
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post #839 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:49 PM - Thread Starter
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My apologies. I went a bit overboard. How about we return to the topic that has been recently brought up.

Would it be so bad if Oppo offered a diskless version in addition to their regular optical player? While I probably would get the optical player, I see no reason to insist that others buy an optical player too if they have no use for it. Does anyone see a reason why a CHOICE is a bad thing if Oppo offered both? I think Oppo makes phones too but I don't think that negatively impacts their ability to make other electronics.
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post #840 of 1059 Old 03-14-2014, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

100 HD-DVD whoa talk about betting on the wrong horse eek.gif

smile.gif It only seems like I backed the wrong horse at the time, but my plan was always to buy a bluray player, I just wanted an Oppo and it took them time to put one out.

I bought most of the HD-DVD movies after the format war was decided, so the average price was 2-6 dollars. While that's still a good amount of money, it's not the 2000 that was possible.

I have a bunch of very good movies in that format, so I want to keep them available for watching.

So I don't feel I made a mistake. I have two functioning HD DVD players and am very happy with their performance. I also have two Oppo bluray players, so I have the best of both worlds.

cool.gif
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