What features would you like in your next Oppo BR - e.g. Oppo BDP-113 and BDP-115. - Page 47 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1381 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 12:35 AM
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There are many good suggestions here that I won't repeat. I have a BDP-95 that I love. There are two areas I would like addressed:
  • Subtitle positioning: I would like to control this on the fly directly from the remote (like with little arrow keys). This issue comes up a lot for me since I like to watch foreign movies and end up annoyed by the subtitle placement, which changes from movie to movie and is often too high. To change the subtitle placement I have to drill down into the settings while the movie is playing, thus ruining the beginning. Then it will be wrong for the next movie. I also wish I could adjust the subtitle size and brightness (both to be less), though I'm not sure if that's possible. Subtitles are a major part of viewing films and I feel that extra attention to them is warranted.
  • On-board (good) room correction: the BDP-95 has a soundboard and DAC and all that, so I use my pre-pro only as an analog preamp when the Oppo is the source. The pre-pro has room correction software that isn't great, but in any case I don't use it. It would be nice if I could learn more about my room directly from the Oppo by way of a microphone and room-correction software, and have the Oppo do the correction directly. People talk about Dirac but I don't know about it or what other choices there are.
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post #1382 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 03:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Wartybliggens View Post
Subtitle positioning: I would like to control this on the fly directly from the remote (like with little arrow keys). This issue comes up a lot for me since I like to watch foreign movies and end up annoyed by the subtitle placement, which changes from movie to movie and is often too high. To change the subtitle placement I have to drill down into the settings while the movie is playing, thus ruining the beginning. Then it will be wrong for the next movie. I also wish I could adjust the subtitle size and brightness (both to be less), though I'm not sure if that's possible. Subtitles are a major part of viewing films and I feel that extra attention to them is warranted.
Welcome to AVSForum.

This is already done. See the BDP-83 FAQ: Can subtitles be repositioned?

-Bill

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post #1383 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 12:12 PM
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Converting film based 1080i to 24p would be cool.

The proper setting for sharpness is always0.
Also my Oppo BDP-103D is region free.
That makes me awesome.
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post #1384 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
This is already done. See the BDP-83 FAQ
Thanks, but I think you didn't read all of what I wrote. I own a BDP-95 and already can reposition subtitles, as I described above. I'm asking for it to be directly available and easy to manipulate via the remote, not only buried deep in the settings.
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post #1385 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wartybliggens View Post
Thanks, but I think you didn't read all of what I wrote. I own a BDP-95 and already can reposition subtitles, as I described above. I'm asking for it to be directly available and easy to manipulate via the remote, not only buried deep in the settings.
Start the movie playing with subtitles showing. Press and Hold the Subtitles button on the Remote until the positioning message appears on screen. Then use Up/Down arrow to adjust the positioning while play continues. Press Enter to select the positioning you end up liking.
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post #1386 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Wartybliggens View Post
Thanks, but I think you didn't read all of what I wrote.
I think you did not read the link.

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post #1387 of 1409 Old 05-12-2015, 03:44 PM
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It's not buried deep in the Settings menu. Hold down the Subtitle button on the remote for a few seconds and a pop-up information screen allows you to move the subtitles up or down in increments by pressing the up or down arrow navigation keys. I do this all the time. The only time you can't do it is when the subtitle position is embedded in the disc, as it sometimes is, and not subject to movement.

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post #1388 of 1409 Old 05-19-2015, 06:46 PM
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Bass management issue with analogue output. This does not apply to those who are using HDMI output to pre/pro/receiver, but would like to use the bass management features of the Oppo and re-direct the bass to the sub. I.e. the Oppo is direct connected to the amp and is being used as pre/pro. The issue is applicable for all Oppo players going back to the BDP-83 series.

AVS member Shreds has carried out tests to show that there is clipping of the sub channel in post number 145 of the "Disappointed in the Oppo BDP-105 thread".

Bob Pariseau explained in post number 240 of the same thread how Oppo handles bass management with the crossover processing by the Oppo.

The problem comes from:
(a) Some discs are being authored hot on the LFE channel and perhaps including the main channels;
(b) Insufficient headroom within the digital domain where bass management is being carried out by the Oppo.

Once the signal is clipped in the digital domain, it will be clipped when it is converted to analogue signal using the DACs within the Oppo. This what's happening as reported by Shreds in post number 145.

A work around that Oppo may want to implement is a Reference Level Offset (RLO) to the signals within the digital domain. Suggested features are:

Reference Level Offset (RLO): ON/OFF
Reference Level Offset (RLO): Start Value -5dB
Reference Level Offset (RLO): Increment value 1dB
Maximum Reference Level Offset (RLO) value: -15dB

The above is in addition to the -15dB attenuation that Oppo is currently applying for bass management. There are a few gotchas in the above.

(1) the user will have to make up the difference in the RLO with downstream volume control.
(2) with the RLO implementation, the noise level will probably increase. If it is audible, the user will have to play around with the RLO value to what is least objectionable. The trade off is risking less distortion on the sub output or increase in noise level for those discs that are mastered with a hot LFE channel.
(3) Markus has calculated that up to 18.1dB headroom + 10dB for the LFE channel is needed in post number 291. I.e. Total of 28.1dB. Oppo engineers might want to check this out themselves.

Would be nice if Oppo can implement the RLO feature going back to the older 83 models, but it might be too much to ask. As least the new models can get it right.

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post #1389 of 1409 Old 05-20-2015, 06:59 AM
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How would discs that are authored 'hot' be identified? Can this be automatically triggered for your offset options?

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post #1390 of 1409 Old 05-21-2015, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzGuyy View Post
How would discs that are authored 'hot' be identified? Can this be automatically triggered for your offset options?
Don't think there is a flag on the disc that would warn the Oppo BDP player that the soundtrack has "hot" low frequencies on the LFE and other channels and thus automatically switch ON the offset options. It's on a movie by movie basis.

Unless you've got right equipment, knowledge and experience that Shreds have, it would be very difficult to determine on a movie by movie basis. It would have been better if Oppo had simply provided the extra headroom for bass management and not have users worried about the potential clipping of the sub channel.

Ralph Potts have put together a spot light list of bass heavy movies here: AVSForum Blu-ray Spotlight: Ralph's picks for Room Shaking Bass

Missing from that list is a title called How to Train your Dragon which Shreds confirmed has "hot" LFE channel.

Edit: The master list of bass movies is here: The New Master List of BASS in Movies with Frequency Charts

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post #1391 of 1409 Old 05-22-2015, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by steveting99 View Post
Don't think there is a flag on the disc that would warn the Oppo BDP player that the soundtrack has "hot" low frequencies on the LFE and other channels and thus automatically switch ON the offset options. It's on a movie by movie basis.

Unless you've got right equipment, knowledge and experience that Shreds have, it would be very difficult to determine on a movie by movie basis. It would have been better if Oppo had simply provided the extra headroom for bass management and not have users worried about the potential clipping of the sub channel.
I thought the issue was the opposite of clipping, rather that the Oppo filters the analog output a from bass signal that exceeds the agreed upon and specified limit.

So, unless I've got it wrong, it's the filtering of 'plus' signal that is the issue.
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post #1392 of 1409 Old 05-22-2015, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by hernanu View Post
I thought the issue was the opposite of clipping, rather that the Oppo filters the analog output a from bass signal that exceeds the agreed upon and specified limit.

So, unless I've got it wrong, it's the filtering of 'plus' signal that is the issue.
Hi hernanu,

The bass management is done in the digital domain - as advised by Bob Pariseau. Oppo initially reduced all the channel levels (including the LFE channel) by 15dB, this is the initial attenuation. It then re-directs the all the main channels that are set to SMALL to a summation circuit and combines it with the LFE channel. The total of this summation is then sent to the sub channel for conversion back to analogue.

The problem is that with certain sound tracks (i.e. How to train your dragon), the -15dB attenuation in the digital domain is insufficient and the resulting summation (again in the digital domain) exceeds 0dBFS. I.e. the signal is already clipped in the digital domain. There is nothing that can be done to correct for this. The clipped digital signal is then sent to the DAC stage where it is converted to an analogue output signal, that shows up as a clipped waveform. See Shreds post on the end results.

The idea is to provide additional headroom in the digital domain.

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post #1393 of 1409 Old 05-22-2015, 12:28 PM
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But then how would you know how much boost must be applied in your subs or preamp? As I understand it, the 15db boost is based on the standard. These 'hot bass' movies don't follow that standard. So how much hotter is each one? Is there a way to know? If I had 20db headroom, would my default boost be 20db and then I would have to reduce it for each hot movie or audio file? Again, how much? I don't see how merely adding headroom solves the problem of getting the bass right. Maybe I just don't understand enough. Could someone who does, explain how just adding headroom would solve the problem?

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post #1394 of 1409 Old 05-22-2015, 04:30 PM
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Hi hernanu,

The bass management is done in the digital domain - as advised by Bob Pariseau. Oppo initially reduced all the channel levels (including the LFE channel) by 15dB, this is the initial attenuation. It then re-directs the all the main channels that are set to SMALL to a summation circuit and combines it with the LFE channel. The total of this summation is then sent to the sub channel for conversion back to analogue.

The problem is that with certain sound tracks (i.e. How to train your dragon), the -15dB attenuation in the digital domain is insufficient and the resulting summation (again in the digital domain) exceeds 0dBFS. I.e. the signal is already clipped in the digital domain. There is nothing that can be done to correct for this. The clipped digital signal is then sent to the DAC stage where it is converted to an analogue output signal, that shows up as a clipped waveform. See Shreds post on the end results.

The idea is to provide additional headroom in the digital domain.
And if Oppo changed their product so that it accommodates the over the top and out of spec soundtracks,
then what happens when even more soundtracks get produced even farther out of spec?
To what end does the madness ever stop?
Personally I do not think Oppo should change their product based on others' mistakes.
If some people want to ban together to get the issue fixed,
then shouldn't you be petitioning for an audience with the studios who have produced out of spec sound mixes
instead of blaming Oppo for the issue?

All of this nonsense just keeps making me want to post this over and over again, because it just doesn't make much sense.
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post #1395 of 1409 Old 05-23-2015, 12:10 AM
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And if Oppo changed their product so that it accommodates the over the top and out of spec soundtracks,
then what happens when even more soundtracks get produced even farther out of spec?
Dave, which spec are your referring to? As far as I know, the movie sound mixer has the flexibility in the main channels to produce sounds with a range from 20Hz to 20kHz up to 0dBFS. The LFE channel is from 20Hz up to 120Hz and to 0dBFS. Are you now saying the movie sound mixer shouldn't be allowed to have this flexibility for creative content?

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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
...To what end does the madness ever stop?
One has a few choices:
(1) Use the HDMI audio chain and let the downstream pre/pro/receiver take care of the bass management. Believe most Oppo owners will go down this path;
(2) If one wants to use the analogue circuits of the Oppo, never implement bass management. I.e. ensure all main speakers are set to LARGE. One has to ensure that downstream devices such as amps and main speakers are capable to reproduce the full 20Hz to 20kHz signals at the required volume. Not everyone will have a setup to cater for this so this is a low probability event.
(3) If one wants to use the analogue circuits of the Oppo and use the bass management due to the speaker + sub combination in the room, avoid all bass heavy movies. Easiest to do, but some may be feel a bit left behind in not being able to enjoy certain movies while many others can.

Markus has done a calculation to show what the required headroom is needed for either 5.1 and 7.1 bass re-direction in post number 291. Oppo clearly did not meet this and came up short by around 15dB.

Can you do the maths to show something different?

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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
..Personally I do not think Oppo should change their product based on others' mistakes. If some people want to ban together to get the issue fixed,
then shouldn't you be petitioning for an audience with the studios who have produced out of spec sound mixes
instead of blaming Oppo for the issue?
Can you please define/clarify by what is "produced out of spec sound mixes" mean? If it means staying within the 20Hz to 20kHz for each main channel and below 0dBFS (20Hz to 120Hz for the LFE channel and below 0dBFS), I can't understand how this would be so.

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...All of this nonsense just keeps making me want to post this over and over again, because it just doesn't make much sense.
If you've never used (or intend to use) the analogue outputs with bass management enabled, then there is nothing for you to worry about. The vast majority of Oppo owners (that includes me) will use HDMI and let the downstream pre/pro/receiver take care of the bass management. So no issue.

However, if one intends to use the analogue circuit of the Oppo and implement bass management, I would hazard a guess that this would only apply to some Oppo owners. Then there is a risk of sending a clipped waveform to the sub downstream, this would be of concern to the sub's plate amp and driver. By sending a clipped signal, there is a risk of damaging both the sub's amp and driver. Because the human hearing isn't sensitive at low frequencies that the sub is reproducing, the resulting distortion produced by the sub will be difficult to discern from the normal clean signal. One would need the experience, knowledge and equipment to find this out.

Most of were not aware of the problem until Shreds did the test and brought it up. Ignorance is bliss as some say.

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Last edited by steveting99; 05-23-2015 at 01:37 AM. Reason: typo and additional text
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post #1396 of 1409 Old 05-23-2015, 06:09 AM
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Steve, are you an attorney? You are pretty good at taking the truth and twisting into something else, lol.
You know I'm not referring to the frequency range at which home audio is reproduced,
(but I am also not going to get sucked into yet another technical debate to no end).
You know the problem is in the audio mix and not the player.
You know those mixes are out of spec against the recommendations from Dolby and DTS.
That's all I wanted to say since the posts that you and a few others keep pushing never actually say what the underlying problem is,
but you think that Oppo should alter their player to accommodate it.

It is also very unnecessary to drag it all into yet another thread where it doesn't need to be.
I probably shouldn't have even said anything, because you will just keep going on and on about it now, but I've said all I will say about it for now.

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post #1397 of 1409 Old 05-23-2015, 06:21 AM
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It is also very unnecessary to drag it all into yet another thread where it doesn't need to be.
I probably shouldn't have even said anything, because you will just keep going on and on about it now, but I've said all I will say about it for now.
Agreed. Can the majority of posts from #1388 onwards be moved out of this topic and into the Disappointed in the Oppo BD-105 topic...


Cheers
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post #1398 of 1409 Old 05-23-2015, 07:15 AM
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Here we go again.

The authoring guidelines from Dolby and DTS have existed for years. For example, here's the block diagram from Dolby explaining to authors how Bass Management will work in a Source device like the OPPO players:

Disappointed in the Oppo BD-105

Keeping in mind that the LFE content is recorded already -10dB down, what this diagram tells authors is that the Sub output signal will be Full Scale when that LFE channel -- attenuated an additional -5dB -- and the steered bass from the normal speaker channels -- attenuated a full -15dB -- sum to Full Scale.

(Note that the right most block in that diagram -- Analog Gain +15dB Max -- happens external to the player.)

Authors are supposed to be aware of this.

The OPPO players ALREADY implement Bass Management in just this fashion.
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post #1399 of 1409 Old Yesterday, 04:28 PM
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^ Bob,

The signal flow diagram with -15dB attenuation is applicable for a 5.1 soundtrack. I count all togher 6 channels in the diagram.

What happens if the movie sound track is 7.1? Due to the loading of an aditional two channeks, the maths come out different. An additional 3dB of headroom is needed when the surround back channels are re-directed, there is a risk of clipping the sub channel under this case.

Does Oppo throw away the surround back channels information in a 7.1 sound track in order to maintain the -15dB headroom?

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post #1400 of 1409 Old Yesterday, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
^ No the surround and surround back channels are attenuated by a certain amount when downmixed
to a lesser amount of channels than the original mix.
I can't recall from memory what the attenuation is, but it varies depending on which channels are being
downmixed and to what speakers they are being downmixed to.
Dave,

I'm not talking about down mixing from 7.1 to 5.1, but rather using all 7.1 channels in the analogue outputs in a 7.1 sound track. In this scenario the -15dB attenution appears to be insufficient as the bass re-direction of an additional two channel will overload the sub channel.

Is the suggested work around now is to ALWAYS have 5.1 at the analogue outputs, irrespective if the sound track is 7.1? I.e. never use the surround back channels?

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OK. This has gone on long enough. We are starting to get complaints. It is already being discussed in the Disappointed thread. Oppo has responded, Bob has kindly posted there what is happening in the player and external. Please keep that discussion there.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself
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post #1402 of 1409 Old Yesterday, 07:56 PM
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steveting99,
I responded to your question in the "disappointed" thread.
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post #1403 of 1409 Unread Yesterday, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiman View Post
i would like all balanced analog output so i could connect the player directly to the amps.

right now, only the strereo connectors are balanced, and are 6dB louder than their unbalanced conterparts, which make it difficult to balance the soundstage
Yes, others have said it as well. Balanced outputs all around on the 115 model, I'd certainly opt for the 115 model, I'd prefer to skip my pre-pro section all together, I'd have likely gotten the bdp-95 rather then the 93 I have now if the 95 model would have had a full compliment of balance outputs.

Great suggestion by those that have said this already!

Cheers,
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post #1404 of 1409 Unread Today, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
(Note that the right most block in that diagram -- Analog Gain +15dB Max -- happens external to the player.)
This is wrong information. The processing shown in the diagram above is happening in the bitstream decoder and not external to it.

Markus

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Last edited by markus767; Today at 04:18 AM.
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post #1405 of 1409 Unread Today, 04:27 AM
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Please take Bass Management to audio theory or continue in the player threads.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself
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post #1406 of 1409 Unread Today, 04:35 AM
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Please take Bass Management to audio theory or continue in the player threads.
I'd like Oppo to implement bass management correctly and in a way that doesn't potentially lead to signal distortion so this thread seems to be most appropriate to post information on how to do BM right, no?

By the way, you've requested to post BM issues in the "Disappointed in the Oppo BD-105" thread. This thread has been closed by a mod so where would you prefer it to be discussed?

Markus

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post #1407 of 1409 Unread Today, 04:46 AM
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See above. Please take Bass Management to Audio Theory or player model threads.

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post #1408 of 1409 Unread Today, 05:16 AM
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^
Will do but please let me describe my feature request for the next Oppo Blu-ray player here.

The standard Dolby bass management mixing scheme can potentially lead to distortion of the subwoofer channel:



5 x -15dB = -1dB; -1dB + -5dB = +3.2dB
7 x -15dB = 1.9dB; 1.9dB + -5dB = +5.1dB

If I calculated this right the numbers should be as follows:

5x -18.3dB and LFE -8.3dB instead of -15/-5 (5.1 channels)
7x -20.2dB and LFE -10.2dB instead of -15/-5 (7.1 channels)

Markus

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post #1409 of 1409 Unread Today, 05:31 AM
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markus767,

Per the request from the mods, I'll quote and respond to your post above in the 105 player thread.
--Bob

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