Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread - Page 127 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:44 PM
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Thanks all for the input, very helpful. Just now have to learn more and decide between the 103 and 103D.
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Old 10-26-2015, 08:58 PM
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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread

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Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post



As 98% of DVDs I watch comes from film [they are progressive on the disc], de-interlacing is not important there, a relatively simple flag reading ability is all you need. Only for video-originated DVDs, or some early DVDs with improper flags, it becomes important.

Only if you're running the player at 60p and letting the TV do inverse telecine, otherwise a good DVD 24p mode is important for film.

The 790, 83 and 103 have a DVD 24p mode. Some work better than others.

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Old 10-27-2015, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Only if you're running the player at 60p and letting the TV do inverse telecine, otherwise a good DVD 24p mode is important for film.

The 790, 83 and 103 have a DVD 24p mode. Some work better than others.
This is not quite what I meant. As film DVDs are 24p on the disc, with a proper flag reader it is possible to reconstruct these 24p fully (does not matter where - on TV, or on DVD player). But because we are talking about DVD players, we are discussing the reconstruction of 24p on the player itself (as a part of the deinterlacing-scaling process).

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Old 10-27-2015, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post
As film DVDs are 24p on the disc, with a proper flag reader it is possible to reconstruct these 24p fully (does not matter where - on TV, or on DVD player).
Careful, I'm not sure that's true. Even if they are 24p on disc, what comes out of the MPEG decoder is always 60i. Getting that back into 24p is not trivial.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Careful, I'm not sure that's true. Even if they are 24p on disc, what comes out of the MPEG decoder is always 60i. Getting that back into 24p is not trivial.
It is trivial if you have proper flags for reverse pulldown. Some DVDs [esp., early ones] have it messed up, that's where a good deinterlacer becomes important. Personally, I have not seen non-24p film-sourced DVDs.

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Old 10-27-2015, 02:52 PM
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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post
It is trivial if you have proper flags for reverse pulldown. Some DVDs [esp., early ones] have it messed up, that's where a good deinterlacer becomes important.
De-interlacing only gets you 60p as per traditional "progressive scan" DVD players. Going to 24p is the next (non-trivial) step that I call "inverse telecine". Some people confuse this with "film-mode deinterlacing" but it is not the same thing.

Regardless of what's on the disc, the player will nominally output 60i or 60p. Some players can take this to the next step but it is usually an option marked DVD 24p that has to be enabled (it is only automatic with with Blu-rays). The challenge is for the algorithm to recognize when film content is being played and not screw up video content, menus, featurettes with mixed film/video or film footage that has been heavily processed on a digital workstation.

Bottom line: If you're not sending a 1080p24 signal from your player or video processor to your TV/PJ when watching film, you better make sure your TV/PJ has a good inverse telecine mode and it is enabled. There is no need to be watching 24p film at 60Hz with today's technology unless you're using an older plasma TV that only does 60Hz (or has a lousy 24/48/72Hz mode).

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Last edited by AVfile; 10-27-2015 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 10-27-2015, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Reverse pulldown only gets you 60p. Going to 24p is the next (non-trivial) step that I call "inverse telecine". Some people confuse this with "film-mode deinterlacing" but it is not the same thing.

Regardless of what's on the disc, the player will nominally output 60i or 60p. Some players can take this to the next step but it is usually an option marked DVD 24p that has to be enabled (it is only automatic with with Blu-rays). The challenge is for the algorithm to recognize when film content is being played and not screw up video content, menus, featurettes with mixed film/video or film footage that has been heavily processed on a digital workstation.

Bottom line: If you're not sending a 1080p24 signal from your player or video processor to your TV/PJ when watching film, you better make sure your TV/PJ has a good inverse telecine mode and it is enabled. There is no need to be watching 24p film at 60Hz with today's technology unless you're using an older plasma TV that only does 60Hz (or has a lousy 72Hz mode).
Reverse pulldown is inverse telecine "as you call it". You can use a simple utility DGPULLDOWN to remove flags from a film-sourced DVD mpeg file and get a "pure" 24p progressive file, without recompression. Good DVD players do the same.

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Old 10-27-2015, 08:41 PM
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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post
Reverse pulldown is inverse telecine "as you call it". You can use a simple utility DGPULLDOWN to remove flags from a film-sourced DVD mpeg file and get a "pure" 24p progressive file, without recompression. Good DVD players do the same.
Sorry I should have said "Deinterlacing only gets you to 60p". So a great deinterlacer doesn't guarantee a 24p signal which is another process. I think we can agree on that at least.

That's great about the computer programs but I don't see how a standard "DVD player" can output a 24p signal from a DVD unless it is something fancy like an Oppo with an ABT chip. Even the BDP-93 couldn't do DVD 24p until later firmware.

I have edited my post because it just struck me that you may have been talking about computers all along. Still stand by my previous posts though.

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Last edited by AVfile; 10-27-2015 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 10-28-2015, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Sorry I should have said "Deinterlacing only gets you to 60p". So a great deinterlacer doesn't guarantee a 24p signal which is another process. I think we can agree on that at least.

That's great about the computer programs but I don't see how a standard "DVD player" can output a 24p signal from a DVD unless it is something fancy like an Oppo with an ABT chip. Even the BDP-93 couldn't do DVD 24p until later firmware.

I have edited my post because it just struck me that you may have been talking about computers all along. Still stand by my previous posts though.
It's called progressive scan, and it has been around for quite a while.
For true interlaced content, DECOMBING gets you 29.97p. No DVD player outputs 480p60.
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Old 10-28-2015, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
.. but I don't see how a standard "DVD player" can output a 24p signal from a DVD unless it is something fancy like an Oppo with an ABT chip.
many cheapest and not so new players do it [like Sony s1100]

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Old 10-31-2015, 08:32 AM
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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread

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Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
It's called progressive scan, and it has been around for quite a while.
For true interlaced content, DECOMBING gets you 29.97p. No DVD player outputs 480p60.

Even the earliest progressive scan DVD players output 480p60 (59.94Hz vertical, 31kHz horizontal if you want to be pedantic) via analog component video and it was called line doubling.

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Last edited by AVfile; 10-31-2015 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 10-31-2015, 08:37 AM
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Official 2012 Sony BDP-S790 Thread

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Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post
many cheapest and not so new players do it [like Sony s1100]

Not surprising as that is a BD (Blu-ray Disc) player not "DVD player" and I already stated the s790 does it. I rest my case.

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Old 10-31-2015, 08:41 AM
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Quote:
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Not surprising as that is a BD (Blu-ray Disc) player not "DVD player" and I already stated the s790 does it. I rest my case.
Well you quoted Oppo 93...

Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk

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Old 11-01-2015, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
Even the earliest progressive scan DVD players output 480p60 (59.94Hz vertical, 31kHz horizontal if you want to be pedantic) via analog component video and it was called line doubling.
What's the source of your information?
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Old 11-03-2015, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
What's the source of your information?

First hand experience with CRT displays having fixed vertical scan rate of 60Hz (interlaced or progressive). Only the horizontal rate could vary depending on what you fed them.

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Old 11-03-2015, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AVfile View Post
First hand experience with CRT displays having fixed vertical scan rate of 60Hz (interlaced or progressive). Only the horizontal rate could vary depending on what you fed them.
Sure TVs can support 60hz, I meant what is your source that there are DVD players converting content to 480p60.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S_G7 View Post
This is good info, thanks. Just curious do you have any experience with the regular 103 vs. the 103D for just DVD playback and a recommendation on which is better?

I have multiple players, too many to list in my search for a bluray-player that will provide a DVD picture on an HDTV similar to what it looked like on a SD CRT I used to own. I own the s6200, s7200, s6500, and s790, all of which IMO are equivalent in PQ and provide the best DVD picture among the players I own. I've never owned an OPPO, but if it's that much better for DVD PQ, I may finally take the plunge,
Did you get an Oppo in the end? And if you did what are your impressions?

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Old 11-12-2015, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctorM View Post
Sure TVs can support 60hz, I meant what is your source that there are DVD players converting content to 480p60.
Any player that is progressive would output 480p/60. This is a minimum. Modern players do 1080p/60 and 1080i/60, sometimes 1080p/24.

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Old 11-15-2015, 09:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jurid001 View Post
Did you get an Oppo in the end? And if you did what are your impressions?
Not yet. I'm still trying to decide between the 103 and 103D. From what I've read, it sounds like the 103D is the way to go for the best DVD upscaling. I'll definitely post my impressions once purchased.
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Old 12-09-2015, 01:28 PM
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My remote has just suddenly stopped working. None of the buttons does anything to the player. The batteries are still fairly new.

Can it be because of humidity in the air, or too low temperature?
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Old 12-09-2015, 01:59 PM
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Check the remote IR LED with a digital camera. If it lights when you press a button, the remote is fine. It's more likely that the player itself has failed or there is a new source of IR noise or interference.
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Old 12-09-2015, 02:31 PM
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Yes, I can see a very faint red light in the remote IR LED through my magnifying glass.

What should I do?

The weather has been very humid for the last few days, and the indoor temperature is pretty low. Can that be the cause why the player is nor reacting to the remote? (The player works otherwise with the 'hard' buttons on the player itself.)

Edit: I don't think there is any IR noise. There is only the TV, I shot it off, and it makes no difference.

Last edited by Terriers; 12-09-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 12-09-2015, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terriers View Post
Yes, I can see a very faint red light in the remote IR LED through my magnifying glass.
IR is completely invisible to humans and would never manifest itself as the visible color red. You are seeing some other red LED. You must use a digital camera or learn how to communicate with snakes.

Confirm whether the IR LED is working, then we consider next steps.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:01 PM
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Finally figured out how to do the test with the camera. Yes, there is a pale violet/white light from the remote LED, showing through the LCD window of my camera.

Last edited by Terriers; 12-09-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 12-09-2015, 04:47 PM
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Good. That means your remote is fine. If you can also confirm there are no new sources of IR noise (new TV perhaps), then problem lies in the player. See if a hard reset does anything.
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Old 12-09-2015, 11:17 PM
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Something new I'm seeing and it's making me crazy. I have this plugged into a Sony XBR75X850C that is about 2 months old.

During playback there is a very thin broken vertical line (top to bottom) that crawls, changing which segments are visible. It's a half inch from the right edge of the screen. There is still some slight movement in the line even when the video is paused, but not as pronounced.

I can move where the artifact appears by change the TV's AR or overscan. So it isn't the screen. I've changed HDMI cables and also which HDMI input on the TV I'm using. An analog connection from the BD player does not show this.

The only thing that I've tried that actually clears it up is for BD content if the BDP is set for 4k upscaling THEN the line disappears. That really doesn't help DVDs or the fact the BD player's upscaler is inferior for the newer TV.

I can adjust the TV's overscan to hide this, but I really shouldn't have to.
Anyone else see something like this or have a suggestion?
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Old 12-10-2015, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post
Good. That means your remote is fine. If you can also confirm there are no new sources of IR noise (new TV perhaps), then problem lies in the player. See if a hard reset does anything.
Thanks a lot for your helpfulness, mdavej!


Was lucky this time! I unplugged the player (and also the TV and stereo) for a few minutes. And when I plugged it back in again, everthing worked fine! It now responds as usual to the remote.

I don't know, but compared to my old Pioneer DVD-player, these modern players seem to be a lot more like computors. In the way they pile up data-information, so that they have to turned off completely every once in a while, to refresh.
Next time I may have to make a hard reset, but it was not necessary this time.

VERY happy the player was not actually broken down, because I am quite fond of it.
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Old 12-10-2015, 06:50 AM
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Glad it worked itself out.

BD players are indeed very much like computers since the discs essentially have software that needs a CPU to run, unlike DVD.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:12 PM
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Well now, this was a very short-lasting happiness.

When I did put a disc in the player, the problem was back again. And this time it didn't help to unplug. There is no contact between the remote and the player.

How do I make a hard reset?

I have tried to hold down the on/off button on the player for several seconds. It only made the player go on and off repeatedly. I also tried to hold down the stop button for several seconds, but that did nothing. And I tried holding down the stop button and eject button at the same time for several seconds, but it did not help either, it only turned off and on the eject function.
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Old 12-11-2015, 09:29 PM
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AFAIK the s790 "reset" procedures are... 1 unplug the unit for a minute or 2, do a reset in the menu.

For your ir remote issue although, I might lean towards removing the top and seeing if the ir receiver in the unit itself has come "unglued". You mentioned damp... Damp is bad for gear.

BTW, when the remote is not functional does the unit respond to the soft buttons on the player itself? If it does, then my first assumption may be the real culprit.

Doug k
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