Official Sony BDP-S590 and BDP-390 Thread - Page 31 - AVS Forum
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post #901 of 4075 Old 05-07-2012, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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FYI. The S390 is now $99 at Amazon.
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post #902 of 4075 Old 05-07-2012, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

... As far as what displays handle 4:2:2 and 4:4:4 correctly, I really have no idea, as there are hundreds of displays out there. I can only test the ones I review.

Are there any HDTV's that you have tested and have passed the chroma burst or chroma zone plate? Manf/Model? The reason I ask because even in the Spears & Munsil test disc the documentation (with the Up Arrow key) shows a picture that is very similar to my case and IMHO would indicate a failure of the test yet S&M labels it as "good"? I don't get it?

Quote:


I don't have this data for the HSL% and I'm not sure I'll run those numbers. That's getting really complex to report to readers, though if we get a demand for it, I'll try to do it.

The additional data would allow someone to interpret the dE's that you have found and detemine whether they is a visible difference on their display system. The problem with saying there is an error but not giving an indication as to what someone would see is that everyone is not learning to become more critical with our viewing experiences.
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post #903 of 4075 Old 05-07-2012, 05:16 PM
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I'm not happy with the 220 I got, I had a Sony N460 that seemed to have a much better picture. It didn't have wifi though and I wanted to access bd-live, vudu, etc, and so on, so I got the 220. But I swear I'm getting just a slight frame issue on dvdr's and bd's on the 220, and Amazon VOD gets quite a bit of frame stuttering, while Vudu (once I put in Google's dns numbers) ran rather well. Bd-live functions on the 220 seem to also be stable as long as I use the manual ip, dns, subnet settings rather than leave it set to auto.

However, it just doesn't seem to be upconverting dvdr's nearly as well as my n460, and I swear I'm seeing a frame issue. On top of that, the players display menu while watching discs, its just fugly in comparison to the n460. So I'm tempted to return it for the S390 but can anyone tell me if the S390 is similiar to the N460 when it comes to the display menu, player settings meu, or any of that? And has anyone else compared the 220 to the S390 when it comes to watching films on dvdr. And I'm not referring to avi or MKV but actual dvd's that are on dvdr. The other thing I'm curious about is layer transition. On my old n460, with dual layer dvdr's, it would get a half a second freeze while changing layers, so I was wondering if the s390 resolved that.
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post #904 of 4075 Old 05-07-2012, 06:00 PM
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The 390 interface is pretty much identical to the 460 except for the greatly improved Netflix app and the addition of a web browser. But every player I've ever owned freezes at layer changes, so I expect the 390 does too.

I had last year's panny which is essentially the same as the 220. DVD-R looks identical on both as long as you turn off all effects on the panny (super resolution, etc.).

You may want to go for a 590 instead for the added display and 3D. The price difference is negligible at the moment. I only have a 390 because I found a deal.

If you are having frame issues, something isn't set up right. Both my panny and sony are smooth. You should turn off any cinemotion type settings in your tv, and turn off 24p in the player if your display can't handle it.
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post #905 of 4075 Old 05-07-2012, 06:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavej View Post

If you are having frame issues, something isn't set up right. Both my panny and sony are smooth. You should turn off any cinemotion type settings in your tv, and turn off 24p in the player if your display can't handle it.

I don't see anything like that on my Samsung, its just an older 720p unit that has the basics like color space, flesh tone, edge enhancement, and digital NR, which I have set to auto. As for the 220, I have chroma process on normal and super resolution on 1. I tried disabling super resolution but didn't notice a difference. But I'll try turning chroma process off to see if that helps. Progressive is set to auto, which I figure is fine?

With Amazon VOD it is a frame thing, but with the dvdrs, I think its a noise thing. I think what I'm seeing isn't a frame issue but heavy pixelation/noise. I have a few films that I converted from 8 gig dvd's to 4 gig dvdr's using dvd shrink. Now on the n460, the films were still upconverted and weren't very pixelated but on this 220, there's far more noise/pixelation. So yeah, I think I'll try the S390 and see if it does as good of a job as the N460.

As for the S390 vs. the S590.. the only difference is the 3D thing, right?

Unless the government makes us go 3D, I have no intention of ever going that route.

And yeah, the two older bd players I tried two years ago had the layer freeze. The only players I've never had that issue with would be my Plextor DVD-rom drive, and my old Sony dvd player. I still have that sony dvd player, damn good unit.
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post #906 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 07:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devianza View Post


I don't see anything like that on my Samsung ....

Please search. Post 1 describes the differences between 390/590.
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post #907 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

Are there any HDTV's that you have tested and have passed the chroma burst or chroma zone plate? Manf/Model? The reason I ask because even in the Spears & Munsil test disc the documentation (with the Up Arrow key) shows a picture that is very similar to my case and IMHO would indicate a failure of the test yet S&M labels it as "good"? I don't get it?

My Samsung PN50B650 (a few years old now) passes it them all fine, though I've seen others that don't, but most projectors that I get in do. Failures are pretty easy to spot, either the whole pattern is solid red and blue with no black lines between them, or there are bright lines at the edges, and all the lines in the middle are very dark, if present at all.


Quote:


The additional data would allow someone to interpret the dE's that you have found and detemine whether they is a visible difference on their display system. The problem with saying there is an error but not giving an indication as to what someone would see is that everyone is not learning to become more critical with our viewing experiences.

I've got the math, but getting that in might take a little bit as I figure out how to display it. With these reviews, I'm getting tempted to have the dEs and such in the review, but a PDF with all the data you can download for people that want the details. The issue there is people downloading and redistributing the PDF and then people not visiting the site, of course. I'll see what I can do with that.

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post #908 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 09:44 AM
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Thanks apw2607 these are a must have for me. You saved me a trip.
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post #909 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 01:57 PM
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I talked to Sony today and they confirmed the issue with RGB output and are fixing it. There should be a new firmware "around June" to resolve it. I'll be keeping the review unit on hand to test and verify the fix as well.

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post #910 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 04:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

I talked to Sony today and they confirmed the issue with RGB output and are fixing it. There should be a new firmware "around June" to resolve it. I'll be keeping the review unit on hand to test and verify the fix as well.

That's good to hear and thanks for bringing up the issue. I'll be happy to update post 1 with your recommendation for settings ...
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post #911 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

That's good to hear and thanks for bringing up the issue. I'll be happy to update post 1 with your recommendation for settings ...

The only bit-perfect settings (to get out exactly what was stored on the disc) are Standard Mode and YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 colorspaces. I always disable Deep Color (as it can provide, at best, a non-visible difference, and at worst have incorrect data) as well. Deep Color might work fine, it might not, but since there is actually no content that uses Deep Color, I imagine making sure that it works perfectly is not at the top of the checklist when QCing a product.

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post #912 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post


The only bit-perfect settings (to get out exactly what was stored on the disc) are Standard Mode and YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 colorspaces. I always disable Deep Color (as it can provide, at best, a non-visible difference, and at worst have incorrect data) as well. Deep Color might work fine, it might not, but since there is actually no content that uses Deep Color, I imagine making sure that it works perfectly is not at the top of the checklist when QCing a product.

Done. Thanks.
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post #913 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 06:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

The only bit-perfect settings (to get out exactly what was stored on the disc) are Standard Mode and YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 colorspaces. I always disable Deep Color (as it can provide, at best, a non-visible difference, and at worst have incorrect data) as well. Deep Color might work fine, it might not, but since there is actually no content that uses Deep Color, I imagine making sure that it works perfectly is not at the top of the checklist when QCing a product.

How do you know if you should use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? Does it depend on your tv?
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post #914 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

How do you know if you should use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? Does it depend on your tv?

FWIW, i tried 4:4:4 with my optoma hd3300 and all was fine until i tried 3d, and then - sparklies everywhere. I switched back to 4:2:2 and everything was fine. i have a long run of hdmi to my projector via my onkyo 809, using all new high speed hdmi cables. I also got the same sparklies using 4:4:4 going directly to the projector in 3d (not 2d at all) using the projector's second hdmi input and a direct run of cable i have that has no interruption.

so for my setup 4:2:2 is the way to go i guess
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post #915 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

How do you know if you should use 4:2:2 or 4:4:4? Does it depend on your tv?

If you have a copy of Spears and Munsil, I will refer you there:

http://spearsandmunsil.com/articles/...olorspace.html

If the patterns look virtually the same, then don't worry about telling the difference, you won't be able to tell in real world content. If there are clear differences, it should be easy to decide which to pick (the one that shows more chroma resolution).

If you don't have Spears and Munsil, I'd recommend a copy, but you can literally just pick one and if it works fine, the most likely side-effect if your display handles it poorly is a small loss of chroma resolution. That's a smaller issue than the RGB calculations being incorrect.

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post #916 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 07:21 PM
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I found the solution. The main menu of this BD has a box in the upper right corner stating "Get Connected." If I turn on the player's "Allow Internet Connection," then load the disc, that box is gone, and the disc plays. I can then turn off the "Allow Internet Connection," the box reappears, and yet the disc still plays. I guess it expected to download something one time before allowing the disc to play.

The strange thing, again, is that my older players were not connected to the Internet, and the box appeared on the menu, but they had no problem playing it anyway.

I loaded the Taxi Driver BD again and without "Allow Internet Connection," it wouldn't play, so I guess it has to be turned on once while the disc is in the machine for it to play.

Another oddity: the Scene Selections don't display or work regardless of whether "Allow Internet Connection" is on or off.

Do any other S590 owners have access to the disc to confirm my issues?

Thanks,
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post #917 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 09:00 PM
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Well I got the S590 today after returning my 220 and its weird..

I couldn't access the speed test on vudu using the 220 and my isp's dns numbers, it just timed out every time. I had to use Google's dns to get the test to work, and even then things were kind of slow. However, with the S590, the speed test so far is working with the isp's dns numbers, and the test speed results are quite a bit higher.

So far I like the unit but.. I don't like the Dailymotion app, it seems to have an entirely different interface than the 220's interface. It doesn't appear to let me log in, and I can only search through the popular videos, it doesn't seem to allow me to search out any video like the 220 did. However, there is the browser on the S590, so I can just search out videos like that.
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post #918 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 09:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

If you have a copy of Spears and Munsil, I will refer you there:

http://spearsandmunsil.com/articles/...olorspace.html

If the patterns look virtually the same, then don't worry about telling the difference, you won't be able to tell in real world content. If there are clear differences, it should be easy to decide which to pick (the one that shows more chroma resolution).

If you don't have Spears and Munsil, I'd recommend a copy, but you can literally just pick one and if it works fine, the most likely side-effect if your display handles it poorly is a small loss of chroma resolution. That's a smaller issue than the RGB calculations being incorrect.

Thanks! I don't have the Spears and Munsil disc, so I'll just experiment a bit. I do have a Disney WOW disc.

But once Sony fixes the RGB issue with a firmware update, is RGB the best choice?
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post #919 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

FYI. The S390 is now $99 at Amazon.

Thanks! It's about time. Just picked up another one.
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post #920 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post


Thanks! I don't have the Spears and Munsil disc, so I'll just experiment a bit. I do have a Disney WOW disc.

But once Sony fixes the RGB issue with a firmware update, is RGB the best choice?

It depends on your display. You can test all 3 once it is fixed with test patterns and see which keeps the most color resolution. All might be fine or only one or two, but you have to test to see. I will look at my WOW disc for a pattern. I've honestly barely used the disc since I got it at CEDIA 2010.

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post #921 of 4075 Old 05-08-2012, 11:54 PM
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The S390 is also on sale at Best Buy for 99 dollars. If you go to a local store, it may ring up as being more but if it does, just tell them to check their website.

By the way, is Sony support easy to deal with?

So far my player seems fine but I just noticed the right arrow key on the remote gets stuck. I put a tiny lil drop of WD40 on it and that seems to have stopped it from getting stuck for now, but I can tell whatever pushes the button back up, it just doesn't push the key back up with much force, unlike the other keys on the remote. Sure, I can go to Best Buy and mention this but they'll want me to bring back the player and the remote I imagine, and that wouldn't be very productive.

My cable tv remote can be programmed to do some of the features but I just figure since I just bought the player, I kinda deserve a working remote.
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post #922 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 06:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devianza View Post

The S390 is also on sale at Best Buy for 99 dollars. If you go to a local store, it may ring up as being more but if it does, just tell them to check their website.

By the way, is Sony support easy to deal with?

So far my player seems fine but I just noticed the right arrow key on the remote gets stuck. I put a tiny lil drop of WD40 on it and that seems to have stopped it from getting stuck for now, but I can tell whatever pushes the button back up, it just doesn't push the key back up with much force, unlike the other keys on the remote. Sure, I can go to Best Buy and mention this but they'll want me to bring back the player and the remote I imagine, and that wouldn't be very productive.

My cable tv remote can be programmed to do some of the features but I just figure since I just bought the player, I kinda deserve a working remote.

Don't use Wd40 on a remote control. It will destroy it. It could be just an alignment issue where the button is catching. You can open the thing up with the screws on the back and just realign the button pad that goes over the board. Ensure the outer cover sits correctly over the button pad too.

Failing that you could purchase another remote for about $15 direct from Sony

Otherwise you're probably got no other choice other than to replace the whole thing.
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post #923 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 08:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devianza View Post

So far I like the unit but.. I don't like the Dailymotion app, it seems to have an entirely different interface than the 220's interface. It doesn't appear to let me log in, and I can only search through the popular videos, it doesn't seem to allow me to search out any video like the 220 did. However, there is the browser on the S590, so I can just search out videos like that.

To search out any video on Dailymotion hit "options" and then select "search".
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post #924 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 11:28 AM
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i can't get my Disney WOW disc to show the blacker-than-black signal from my 590 no matter which of the video output settings I use. I can see the supposed "btb" THX shadow on the THX calibration tools on the T2 bluray. Anyone else having problems sending BTB from their Sony 509?
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post #925 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 02:30 PM
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Otherwise you're probably got no other choice other than to replace the whole thing.

Thats what their online chat tech basically said, so I said screw that and called customer relations. They said they'd send me a new one once they come back in stock, right now they're apparently on backorder for whatever reason. But in the meantime, I called Best Buy and talked to their Geek Squad, they allowed me to bring the remote in and they exchanged it for the one from the unit they had on display. As for paying for a new one from Sony's website, I checked their entire residential remote catalog and didn't see the unit. However, when I checked the professional remote catalog, they did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by keagy View Post

To search out any video on Dailymotion hit "options" and then select "search".

I tried that but it still doesn't let me do a full search. And I know the video I'm searching for is there because I uploaded it there, heh.
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post #926 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Smackrabbit View Post

I talked to Sony today and they confirmed the issue with RGB output and are fixing it. There should be a new firmware "around June" to resolve it. I'll be keeping the review unit on hand to test and verify the fix as well.

Well, Power to the People! Sounds great! I was wondering what I was going to do about my dilemma. In my systems, the RGB ouptut gives me better chroma resolution performance.

Does this "fix" firmware apply to other related Sony products?
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post #927 of 4075 Old 05-09-2012, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Plasma54321 View Post

The dE's are from the conversion from either 4:4:2 or 4:4:4 to RGB color space. Correct? What would be the associated HSL % errors to allow one to look for problem areas. Such as G being too bright or R having a Hue error towards Green.

Here is your HSL data, in a very quick, rough form. I'm guessing this is too complex to look at and quickly understand for most people, so feedback from anyone that's interested would be great, then I can improve it before it hits a review. This is just green, it's all I have the chart for right now. I really need to find a way to automate the chart code.
LL

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post #928 of 4075 Old 05-10-2012, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by apw2607 View Post

FYI. The S390 is now $99 at Amazon.

Yes, I just noticed this. Please let me jump into your thread. I'm not in the habit of returning things but I'm upset that my new (got it one week ago) Panasonic 220 blu-ray player makes me go through hoops to turn subtitles on and off. My old Momitsu V880 DVD player has a subtitle button on the remote. It doesn't let me choose a preferred subtitle language, but does allow me to sequentially go through them (e.g. English, Spanish, French, Off). I can do that without stopping a movie, a big plus. AFAIK, nothing like this is possible with the Panny 220. So, I figure to return it.

The Sony S390 and S590 have a Subtitle button on the remote. I'm trying to figure out what the support is for subtitles. Looking at the manual online (I can't find an English version for download, only 12 non-English language versions off Sony UK!), it appears I can select a preferred subtitle language. Can I then turn subtitles on/off with a single press of the Subtitle button on the remote? I'm talking about discs, DVD and blu-ray. I understand (from reading a post by an upset buyer of the S590 at Amazon, who exchanged his S590 for an LG) that subtitle support for streaming media just isn't there. I haven't gotten into streaming yet, but when I do, I won't be happy that subtitle support is missing, but my immediate concern is for my hundreds of DVDs, and upcoming Blu-rays.

Thank you for your help!
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post #929 of 4075 Old 05-10-2012, 02:30 PM
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Bear in mind that the U.S. Sony BD players won't play PAL DVDs, unlike Momitsu players. I'm guessing that UK Sony players won't play NTSC DVDs.

Pressing the remote's subtitle button repeatedly does step through the available subtitle languages on a BD or DVD without having to pause playback. There doesn't seem to be an explicit on/off, though I might have overlooked it. I always step through them all to get back to the "no subtitles" entry, That can be a pain on a disc with support for many languages. A HUD popup display shows the language selected.

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post #930 of 4075 Old 05-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Bear in mind that the U.S. Sony BD players won't play PAL DVDs, unlike Momitsu players. I'm guessing that UK Sony players won't play NTSC DVDs.

Pressing the remote's subtitle button repeatedly does step through the available subtitle languages on a BD or DVD without having to pause playback. There doesn't seem to be an explicit on/off, though I might have overlooked it. I always step through them all to get back to the "no subtitles" entry, That can be a pain on a disc with support for many languages. A HUD popup display shows the language selected.

Thanks! I did see a page in the manual (page 26?) where it had you choose a preferred subtitle language, which made me think a toggle on/off is supported. It not, I could do what I did with my Momitsu, which was to create macros on my MX-700 remote, one to double press of the subtitle button, one for triple press, another for single press. One of the buttons is usually enough, sometimes I have to press two buttons. It's way way better than having to go into the options menu of the Panasonic 220, and there may be no way around that. I haven't called Amazon yet to arrange to return the player, but I figure that's what I'm going to do. Meantime I have to decide on a replacement. If the S390 truly has absolutely no front display, not even for how far you are into a disk, I will get the S590, probably, although my new projector does not support 3D.

Edit -- On page 11 of the manual it says:

SUBTITLE (page 26) Selects the subtitle language when multi-lingual subtitles are recorded on BD-ROMs/DVD VIDEOs.

On page 26 it says:

Operating Instructions - Page 26

.... When you select [Original], the language given priority in the disc is selected. Select [Select Language Code], and enter the code for your language, referring to "Language code list" (page 37). x [Subtitle Language] Selects the default subtitle language for BD-ROMs or DVD VIDEOs. Select [Select Language Code], and enter the code for your language, referring to "Language code list" (page 37). x [BD Hybrid Disc Playback Layer] [Surround]: Outputs ...

The mention of a "default" subtitle language has me thinking I can program the unit to ignore the others, what else?

I don't think I have any PAL discs, so the lack of it isn't a big deal for me. Having easy access to subtitles and an easy way to turn them off is a big deal for me. I'm totally used to it. I watched a few movies this week without it, and I didn't miss it as much as I thought I would, but I'd like to have it.
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