Pioneer BDP-52FD/53FD/440/LX55 and Yamaha BD-A1010 HDMI Audio Thread - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 9 Old 03-31-2012, 04:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Before I begin, I am aware that some people don't think jitter reduction (such as Pioneer's PQLS technology) doesn't make a difference. I am also aware that some people don't believe in bothering with sound reproduction above 20 KHz. Here's my issue. The Pioneer players use PQLS. When switched on, I notice a difference during loud passages. The upper tones are naturally enhanced. When comparing a CD with an SACD on the Yamaha, I notice a cleaner sound, as well as a natural enhancement in the treble register. My problem is that I own the Yamaha, but not one of the Pioneers at this point. Which is better? SACD converted to PCM at 88.2 KHz with PQLS, or SACD converted to PCM at 176.4 KHz without PQLS? Of course, in a perfect world, we'd have SACD converted to PCM at 176.4 KHz with PQLS, but at this point, it's a difficult choice.
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post #2 of 9 Old 03-31-2012, 05:05 AM
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My advise right now is to stay clear of the bdp53fd until Pioneer fixes the issues this player has. Many are going into total failure including the one I had.

I looked over that Yamaha player and from what I read it seems pretty nice. Oppo and Cambridge make fantastic players.

I have Installed one Denon Universal players http://usa.denon.com/US/Product/Page...12UDCI(DenonNA) and it was really nice. Worth checking out.

PQLS does seem to make a audio difference as I used it when my player worked. Downside is HDMI control has to be on for it to work. I don't use HDMI control as I prefer to control my gear myself.

As far as your question , SACD should be 176.4 not 88.2 with or without PQLS.
Honestly it's probably better just to send it over Analog(using high quality IC's) then you don't have to worry about IF it's being played back correctly.

I'm hoping Pioneer fixes all the issues with the BDP53fd , I'm very sad it has issues.
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post #3 of 9 Old 03-31-2012, 05:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

My advise right now is to stay clear of the bdp53fd until Pioneer fixes the issues this player has. Many are going into total failure including the one I had.

I looked over that Yamaha player and from what I read it seems pretty nice. Oppo and Cambridge make fantastic players.

I have Installed one Denon Universal players http://usa.denon.com/US/Product/Page...12UDCI(DenonNA) and it was really nice. Worth checking out.

PQLS does seem to make a audio difference as I used it when my player worked. Downside is HDMI control has to be on for it to work. I don't use HDMI control as I prefer to control my gear myself.

As far as your question , SACD should be 176.4 not 88.2 with or without PQLS.
Honestly it's probably better just to send it over Analog(using high quality IC's) then you don't have to worry about IF it's being played back correctly.

I'm hoping Pioneer fixes all the issues with the BDP53fd , I'm very sad it has issues.

I've moved on from the world of multi-channel analog because (1) the newer Pioneer receivers don't support it and (2) if I need to, I can apply ALC and DRC to Dolby TrueHD audio streams. As far as SACD is concerned, true DSD-to-analog up to 100 KHz without the cutoff frequency is too expensive anymore. If you want an affordable solution to get a lot from your SACDs, then outputting SACDs as PCM at 176.4 KHz is not a bad way to go. If HDMI control bothers you that much, make sure it is turned off in your TV's settings. Also, make sure that the HDMI control options of your Pioneer receiver are set to Off and No, except for PQLS. The Pioneer receivers' HDMI Control setting has an ALL/PQLS option. Set it to PQLS. Then, the only HDMI-control-specific feature you'll have is the PQLS.
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post #4 of 9 Old 04-02-2012, 02:46 AM
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You need to know the jitter measurements and the filter implementation of the DAC in the receiver to be better informed whether they benefit from audio rate control and higher sample rate. The Pioneer LX83 (not sure which US equivalent that is) has failed HDMI jitter measurements without PQLS so the track record isn't all that good. It's not confined to Pioneer, Denon AVR3808 and Onkyo TX-NR906 also failed in the HiFiNews tests, for example.

Another way of looking at it would be you find improvement in the high frequencies only with PQLS whereas higher sample rate concerns all the audible spectrum so potentially it benefits more.

I now have low jitter design player and receiver and the player does 176.4kHz so I'm covered.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #5 of 9 Old 04-02-2012, 05:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca View Post

You need to know the jitter measurements and the filter implementation of the DAC in the receiver to be better informed whether they benefit from audio rate control and higher sample rate. The Pioneer LX83 (not sure which US equivalent that is) has failed HDMI jitter measurements without PQLS so the track record isn't all that good. It's not confined to Pioneer, Denon AVR3808 and Onkyo TX-NR906 also failed in the HiFiNews tests, for example.

Another way of looking at it would be you find improvement in the high frequencies only with PQLS whereas higher sample rate concerns all the audible spectrum so potentially it benefits more.

I now have low jitter design player and receiver and the player does 176.4kHz so I'm covered.

OK! So what's the winning player/receiver combo you're using?
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post #6 of 9 Old 04-02-2012, 04:13 PM
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Arcam DV139, AVR600: the combo isn't perfect in every way but for MCH SACD it satisfies the above two requirements at least more than any other combo at present.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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post #7 of 9 Old 04-07-2012, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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I did some thinking and theoreticly, DSD-to-PCM at 88.2 KHz reproduces audio up to 40 KHz. DSD-to-PCM at 176.4 KHz reproduces audio up to 80 KHz. So I guess it would be better to have higher frequencies with jitter than not to have them at all. So I guess I'll stick with my Yamaha BD-A1010, and pass on the Pioneers unless they provide DSD-to-PCM at 176.4 KHz with PQLS.
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post #8 of 9 Old 04-07-2012, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantis10 View Post

My advise right now is to stay clear of the bdp53fd until Pioneer fixes the issues this player has. Many are going into total failure including the one I had.

I looked over that Yamaha player and from what I read it seems pretty nice. Oppo and Cambridge make fantastic players.

I have Installed one Denon Universal players http://usa.denon.com/US/Product/Page...12UDCI(DenonNA) and it was really nice. Worth checking out.

PQLS does seem to make a audio difference as I used it when my player worked. Downside is HDMI control has to be on for it to work. I don't use HDMI control as I prefer to control my gear myself.

As far as your question , SACD should be 176.4 not 88.2 with or without PQLS.
Honestly it's probably better just to send it over Analog(using high quality IC's) then you don't have to worry about IF it's being played back correctly.

I'm hoping Pioneer fixes all the issues with the BDP53fd , I'm very sad it has issues.

I use screenreading software, but if you check the specs in the Denon DPB2012UDCI and Marantz UD7006 manuals, I believe that the frequency response for SACD only goes up to 40 KHz via analog, meaning that DSD is converted to 88.2 KHz PCM before it reaches the DACs. Oppo told me that the BDP83 and BDP-83SE only go up to 50 KHz because of the cutoff filter. So I'd imagine the same would hold true for the BDP93 and BDP95. As far as the Yamaha BD-A1010 via analog is concerned, after checking the specs of the AK4358 DAC it uses, there is a chance that it only goes up to 50 KHz, unless Yamaha disabled the cutoff filter. As far as a BD/SACD player that can produce SACD up to 100 KHz via analog, I'm afraid we don't have a solution for that at this time, which is sad for those who believe in the sonic benifits of SACD, like I do.
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post #9 of 9 Old 04-08-2012, 02:34 AM
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Actually I wasn't thinking of ultra high frequencies filter cut off at all. There are no frequencies above 48kHz if original recording is PCM 96kHz or lower. Have a look how many of your SACDs are native DSD or DXD recordings. Even if they are, the engineers might have filtered them out. Don't assume the playback chain can reproduce all those frequencies.

If you read the DAC data sheets you can see for example 44.1kHz, 96kHz and 176.4kHz can be upsampled at different rates and have different clocks or they can be left at native sample rate. These affect the audible frequency range (20-20kHz). Having 176.4kHz input means it's upsampled less than 88.2kHz.

Audiosceptics accept audio trials using 25 people. A recent Oxford study with over 353,000 patient records from 639 separate clinical trials shows for every 1,000 people taking diclofenac or ibuprofen there would be 3 additional heart attacks, 4 more cases of heart failure and 1 death every year.

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