Official OPPO BDP-103/BDP-105 Anticipation Thread - Page 7 - AVS Forum
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post #181 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by indieke2 View Post

Be aware that with new updates, it is possible that even in the 93 and 95, cinavia could be implanted! Not update your firmware to soon!

The things I learn on AVSForum.

(Note: OPPO has said the current models will never have Cinavia detection).

-Bill
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post #182 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by indieke2 View Post

Be aware that with new updates, it is possible that even in the 93 and 95, cinavia could be implanted! Not update your firmware to soon!
The 93 and 95 fall under the old rules, so there's no requirement for Cinavia to be added. There's absolutely no sane reason why Oppo would add Cinavia if it isn't required. A move like that could easily put them out of business.
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post #183 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 05:46 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Just to discuss this a little bit to show big a monster this stuff can be. Blu-rays can have up to 48 Mbps. Typically on well mastered BD's you see 32 to 40 Mbps. I know you are joking when you compare Vudu's poor streaming equivalent to BD at 1080P. smile.gif
Tech radar wrote this couple of paragraphs against this topic.
They could kinda make it work if a new compression scheme that doubles the compression of the recording comes out against 128 GB physical media. That would meet the x4 data increase comparing 1080P BD's to 4K physical media.

Yes, the continued development of compression algorithms and processor performance seem to me to point to something on this order. Any area of the picture that has low entropy is going to be more compressible because of the larger number of pixels. All you need is the algorithm and processing power to take advantage it. Such things are definitely in progress.

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post #184 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 05:53 PM
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IIRC, Oppo has stated that Cinavia will not be added to the 93/95 or the 83s either, for that matter.

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post #185 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 06:09 PM
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I'm REALLY excited about the potential audio capabilities of the BDP-105. It could have the same DAC as the 95, and I'd be happy since the DAC in the 95 offers a staggering amount of information - more than I've ever heard. The 95 just leaves a bit of room with regard to offering a non fatiguing sound in some setups. The power supply design could address this, for sure.

My big question, is with regard to HDCD decoding.... Will it decode HDCD through the digital input implementation??? The one high end cd/sacd player with digital input capability that I know of, The Cary 303T (and 306) decodes disc based HDCD, but NOT through the DAC inputs, apparently.

Any word yet if the BDP 105 will decode HDCD through the digital inputs?
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post #186 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 06:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

This is an over-simplified analysis, and inaccurate. It's an analog signal, but a digital coding that's keyed to the specific use of the audio. the digital code is repeated over and over, eliminating the need for it to be perfectly read every time. The code itself is keyed to the delivery of the audio, meaning that audio specified for BD discs can only be played on a BD disc with AACS encryption. That assumes that its being played on a licensed BD player that is also keyed for BD audio.
A great deal more ACTUAL experience with the protection is needed to determine how it will behave on a specific player. It's possible that a given player may not observe the protection in BD audio UNLESS it's being played from BD folder structure. Food for thought, and speculation about how all this works should be reserved until people actually have hands on it.

I have to admire the conviction you guys have to try to figure out how to defeat this. I admit that I am bent over in dispair trying to come up with work arounds to keep old things going. I am almost resigned to just accepting the inevitable as I try not to commit any more of my time to these pursuits. I am approaching the half century mark and I just want to enjoy life and watch movies in my simple home theater setup.

OK I can not resist but a possible tip to think about is how we used to switch the Blu ray regions for the LG BH200.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1009104/lg-bh200-mini-faq-firmware-info-truehd-7-1-dts-hd-24p-sd-dvd-multiregion

Observing the 93 thread I think the best thing not to do is make any progress or solutions public as it is possible that the powers that be are monitoring this forum. Make good use of the PM function. I suspect that all the discusion of the use of ISO files in the 93 thread caught their attention and then they lowered the boom on OPPO. If a work around is found then Silence is golden.

Regardless of the outcome OPPO still is an unbeatable player as nobody comes close to the support these players have. I can not think of any electronic device I have owned in my life that has this level of support, not only from OPPO, but also from the loyal contributors of the OPPO owners threads on this forum.

"You lose it in here you're in a world of hurt"
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post #187 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 07:51 PM
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In response to this earlier post:
"
"Quote:
Originally Posted by glangford View Post

Since it will function as a DAC, I wonder witll it be an upconverting DAC? My Denon 3311ci will take a 16/44 input and convert it to 24/96.

I own an 83SE, and upsample RBCD's and Squeezebox through an external DAC. When the 95 was being leaked I asked OPPO if it would upsample, and they responded "Never!"

Would that never becomes "now."


I believe that up-sampling a standard-def picture to 1080i or 1080p must be possible, due to the credibility of the companies claiming their blu-ray player, av/receiver or tv will do this, and because, though nol a toechie, I can see how software could be used to "guess" how to fill in the extra pixels from those that are already there.

But, while still not a techie, I cannot see how a low-sampled recording can be upsampled to hi-res - it would not be possible to "guess" what is meant to go into the higher frequencies.

This is a delusion Mark Waldrep of Aix Records(owner, manager, sound engineer etc) has been campaigning againt for some time. Yes, you can up the output to cover the extra frequencies ( I can set settings on my computer sound card to set the default output to 24/96 for all music, and it tricks my av receiver into reporting that it is receiving 24/96, but anything above the 44.1khz is empty!!!!

Here is some of the stuff Mark Waldrep has said about this:

"Knowing that there is nothing that can be done to compact discs to make them "high resolution", I was curious and visited their site. They have sections that sell CD, vinyl and even analog tape versions of their recordings. I wasn't able to find any additional information about the "high resolution virgin polycarbonate CDs".

The truth is that there is no such thing as a "high resolution CD". Don't be fooled. Enjoy the music as a standard CD…that's all it will ever be."

(LinK: http://www.aixrecords.com/articles/article_18_hdcd_really.html)

and also:

"First, he points out that this is not a new situation. At the introduction of high-resolution or high definition audio formats back in 2000, Paul Miller published an article exposing many of the early DVD-Audio productions as lacking substantial improvements over CDs. The SACD and DVD-Audio formats were specially designed to, "demonstrate the audible superiority of 96 kHz/192 kHz recordings over CD's 44.1/16-bit format [but, in fact] actually sounded worse." My contention has always been that a standard definition recording from the past placed in a container that exceeds its fidelity standards remains a standard definition recording. We might be getting the best possible rendition of that older track but it is not the same thing as having a new recording done with live musicians at 96 kHz/24-bits. And it shouldn't be marketed as such"

(link: http://www.aixrecords.com/articles/article_1.html)

Now before someone berates me for being "off-topic" for this thread - I know that. But it was in this thread that poster glangford raised the issue, and I felt it important to nip this delusion in the bud in the thread in which it has occurred.

To see more on what Mark Waldrep has said about this, and more about Aix DVD-A discs and hi-res blu-ray music discs, go to aixrecords.com and use the Articles, the Techtalk, and the About Us links on the menu top of page.

If that sounds like a plug, it ls - but only from a very satisfied customer, not someone with a vested interest in the company, nor a personal friend/ relative of anyone in the company.
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post #188 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 07:59 PM
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Now, to post on-topic, Having just bought my Oppo BDP 95 a few months ago, very cheesed that a model with, if rumours are correct, significant new hardwre additons (specifically the digital inputs - would love that!!!) is on the cards. Although, of course, it was inevitable.

Would also love firwmware that allows the oppo to read playlists from digital storage, that would allow live creation of playlists on the oppo by whole albums instead of only track by track., and maybe even storage of playlists on the Oppo.

Must add my hurrah to all other posters praising Oppo user support. I had a very quick email response to the only query I ever sent to them!!
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post #189 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It requires a new format.
The issue is not just sufficient capacity on the disc, but whether the necessary data rate can be read off the disc.
File formats with the necessary data compression sophistication will have to be agreed upon, and then the optical drives and decoder chips will need to be mass produced.
Now, it wouldn't surprise me if the new format, whenever it happens, is still called Blu-ray. But it is almost certain that you will need to buy a new player to play such a format. I don't see how they can make it backwards compatible (in any useful way) for older players.
--Bob

In other word's if your thinking of upgrading to 4K there won't be a need to buy the soon be released oppo player's,sticking with the old one's will do just fine?
I was reading an article that said it's a new type of format and the only way to view it is by ether downloading or streaming it of the internet because there isn't enough space on the Blu-ray disc that can hold the capacity,even though there are 1TB Blu-ray Disc's in development,still can't imagine it will require more than that.
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post #190 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 10:07 PM
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So the 93/95 won't get Cinavia, but the 103/105 will? Hmm, I may want to hang onto my 93 after all.
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post #191 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 10:09 PM
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oddmania,
Those very large capacity Blu-ray discs are *DATA* discs, for archiving computer files. They are not for use in players where the data has to be read at a very high, sustained bit rate.

Streaming is not an answer either, as the amount of compression you'd need to get the streaming bit rate down to something reasonable would easily overwhelm any image improvements from the higher resolution.

Files off of attached hard drives is the most likely near term answer, but of course, you won't see any studios selling hard drives preloaded with their movies.



You need to think of this in the same light as what happened when HDTVs first came out. Initially the only content was broadcast HDTV programs. Then you had "upscaling" SD-DVD players that would take 480i SD-DVD movie discs and upscale them to 1080i or 1080p for viewing on an HDTV. Of course the HDTVs also did their OWN upscaling. They had to. Most TV channels weren't HD yet. So the recurring question was which scaler did a better job?

It was only later that the Blu-ray format came out where native 1080p content could be delivered on the optical disc.

The new crop of 4K-capable players -- like the 103 and 105 -- are like the upscaling SD-DVD players back in the day. If you've spent money on a 4K-capable display, you can't get any 4K content yet. So you can play current stuff (like Blu-ray) into it and let the display do its own, internal upscaling. Or you can get a 4K player that is also playing that same, non-4K content, but is doing its own upscaling and sending 4K to the display.
--Bob

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post #192 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

So the 93/95 won't get Cinavia, but the 103/105 will? Hmm, I may want to hang onto my 93 after all.

Yep! It should also retain a nice resale value if you ever do decide to sell it. Of course this all assumes that:

1) Cinavia is really the boogieman that people fear it to be, and

2) The studios continue to make discs using Cinavia despite the angry hordes of villagers circling their offices with pitchforks and lighted torches.
--Bob

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post #193 of 2833 Old 09-10-2012, 10:42 PM
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Guess I wait till next year before deciding if I should get it or not specially since the 4K X 2K is coming out,and I'm tiered of spending money on equipment I'm not gonna use.
I was planning on getting a VT50 plasma but after the 4K news I'm sticking with what I have until something that will last for at lest 4-6 years come's up .
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post #194 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

Guess I wait till next year before deciding if I should get it or not specially since the 4K X 2K is coming out,and I'm tiered of spending money on equipment I'm not gonna use.
I was planning on getting a VT50 plasma but after the 4K news I'm sticking with what I have until something that will last for at lest 4-6 years come's up .

Keep in mind that the Consumer Electronics industry is made up of very large, very wealthy companies (albeit not as wealthy as they were just a few years ago), who pay engineers and marketing professionals all over the world top notch salaries to make SURE nothing lasts for at least 4-6 years before the temptation to replace it becomes irresistible. Their bonuses depend upon the degree to which they succeed in getting you to replace what you currently have sooner than you expected to.

It's a rare Home Theater Enthusiast who can hold out against such a concerted assault on your pocketbook and pride of ownership! biggrin.gif

For many people, the path of least heartburn is to just grin and upgrade -- over and over again.

They've become resigned to the reality that WHENEVER they buy, there will always be a "The Next Big Thing". Coming Soon!

So why not buy now, and at least enjoy it while waiting for the NEXT thing you are supposed to buy to hit the shelves?
--Bob
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post #195 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 12:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

So why not buy now, and at least enjoy it while waiting for the NEXT thing you are supposed to buy to hit the shelves?
--Bob

Well said,I was planning on buying either the 93 or 95 players,but after seeing the new models I'll wait for them.
But what's really killing me is replacing my old SAMSUNG LCD screen,with the new Panasonic 55"VT50 but after seeing the 4K screens I've decided to wait,plus my stupid retailer is not bringing the VT50 mad.gif ,the only thing available is the 55" & 65" ST50,though I asked them to order a 55"VT50 for me but the manufacturer refused applying they have to request the minimum amount in order for them to produce it and ship it.
So that's why I'm not so eager for the change.
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post #196 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 12:58 AM
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check out the link regarding the new oppo players and some new stuff guaranteed to milking your wallets wink.gif :
http://cave.hometheaterhifi.com/profiles/blogs/2012-cedia-show-report-robert-kozel
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post #197 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 03:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oddmania View Post

Guess I wait till next year before deciding if I should get it or not specially since the 4K X 2K is coming out,and I'm tiered of spending money on equipment I'm not gonna use.
I was planning on getting a VT50 plasma but after the 4K news I'm sticking with what I have until something that will last for at lest 4-6 years come's up .

+1, though I will be upgrading from the 95 to the 105. I too was planning on getting a VT50 but my wife and I have now decided to wait for a 4k panel. For my part, I find the prospect of full HD each eye passive 3D particularly intriguing.

Sony KDL46XBR2 :-o, Samsung SMT-H3270 HDDVR, Oppo BDP-95 (w/a Haier 7" HLT71), Sony BDP-S350, Emo UMC-1 & XPA-5, Custom built LF, RF, C + 2 subs, 2 Polk T90e (surrounds), Blu-ray, BD-A, DVD & DVD-A Collection, SACD Collection
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post #198 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 03:43 AM
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I'll be getting the BDP-105 if it's modified to a multi region player,but when it comes to the panel,just have to wait and see.
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post #199 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waboman View Post

So the 93/95 won't get Cinavia, but the 103/105 will? Hmm, I may want to hang onto my 93 after all.

Yep! It should also retain a nice resale value if you ever do decide to sell it. Of course this all assumes that:

1) Cinavia is really the boogieman that people fear it to be, and

2) The studios continue to make discs using Cinavia despite the angry hordes of villagers circling their offices with pitchforks and lighted torches.
--Bob

Bob, hardware features aside, is there any advantage of owning a 95 over the 105 if the 95 has the latest firmware? I'm trying to understand why it might be more desirable to hang on to my 95 since I don't care about ISO support or is that mutually exclusive when it comes to Cinavia?

Sony KDL46XBR2 :-o, Samsung SMT-H3270 HDDVR, Oppo BDP-95 (w/a Haier 7" HLT71), Sony BDP-S350, Emo UMC-1 & XPA-5, Custom built LF, RF, C + 2 subs, 2 Polk T90e (surrounds), Blu-ray, BD-A, DVD & DVD-A Collection, SACD Collection
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post #200 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 04:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcuslaw View Post


Bob, hardware features aside, is there any advantage of owning a 95 over the 105 if the 95 has the latest firmware? I'm trying to understand why it might be more desirable to hang on to my 95 since I don't care about ISO support or is that mutually exclusive when it comes to Cinavia?

ISO and Cinavia are not related.

The -93/95 has component video and the new players don't. That is important to some people, but of course the number who need component video is declining. The current OPPOs are particularly valuable to those folks because its analog video is pre-sunset, meaning you can use it for Blu-ray without loss of resolution.

No eSATA on the new players. Otherwise, I don't think anything else is taken away.

-Bill
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post #201 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 04:56 AM
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^ Exactly. And then there's the contingent that fear the Cinavia copy protection. Pre-Cinavia players will retain a premium for those folks.

OPPO players traditional hold their value well, but I think the 93 and 95 will hold particularly well.

That said, I don't think OPPO is going to have any difficulty at all selling the new 103 and 105 players.
--Bob

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post #202 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jed1 View Post

Observing the 93 thread I think the best thing not to do is make any progress or solutions public as it is possible that the powers that be are monitoring this forum. Make good use of the PM function. I suspect that all the discusion of the use of ISO files in the 93 thread caught their attention and then they lowered the boom on OPPO. If a work around is found then Silence is golden.

One big difference. Regarding ISO playback, the Oppo was a one-of-a-kind, a BD player that also had ISO support, albeit not officially supported. It was very easy for the 'industry' to target a relatively small company like Oppo and make them stop supporting ISO. For Cinavia, it affects every BD player manufactured after Feb. 2012. There will be many, many out there working to defeat Cinavia or develop work-arounds. Just like watermarking on DVD-A discs was defeated, and methods to prevent copying BD, SACD, and DVD-A were defeated, and virtually every other scheme developed by the industry to try to prevent copying one's own content. I would be surprised if Cinavia survives in the end, and the 'industry' will be helpless to stop it. Of course, they will be on to something else by then. Unfortunately, it causes problems in the short-term.
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post #203 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

One big difference. Regarding ISO playback, the Oppo was a one-of-a-kind, a BD player that also had ISO support, albeit not officially supported. It was very easy for the 'industry' to target a relatively small company like Oppo and make them stop supporting ISO. For Cinavia, it affects every BD player manufactured after Feb. 2012. There will be many, many out there working to defeat Cinavia or develop work-arounds. Just like watermarking on DVD-A discs was defeated, and methods to prevent copying BD, SACD, and DVD-A were defeated, and virtually every other scheme developed by the industry to try to prevent copying one's own content. I would be surprised if Cinavia survives in the end, and the 'industry' will be helpless to stop it. Of course, they will be on to something else by then. Unfortunately, it causes problems in the short-term.

It should read "Every BD player model released" not manufactured to be correct.

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post #204 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 05:43 AM
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I would be surprised if Cinavia survives in the end

It looks like a tough nut to crack to me. More so than the digital DRM schemes we've had so far. I'm not expecting a breakthrough.

-Bill
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post #205 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 06:17 AM
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It looks like the 103 when available will be replacing my 83SE. The 105 sure looks like a killer player but I do not use the analog outputs of my 83SE anymore so it would be a waste of money for my use. I can understand why some are waiting till 4k displays are available to replace their current displays. But I'm way behind the curve as I'm still using a 50" Panasonic 720p plasma eek.gif. So I plan on getting the Panasonic GT60 then wait another 7-8 years to replace it. Hopefully by then 4k displays will be affordable and there will be plenty of 4k content available.

Bill

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post #206 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by glangford View Post

I agree. Oh well, I have a 95 I'm very happy with so I'll sit this one out. Seems to defeat the point of having the unit behave as an external dac if it can't upconvert.

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Originally Posted by erwinfrombelgium View Post

I don't see the advantage in upconverting digital audio before DAC-ing. If the info isn't there to start with? It's like a digital zoom in a cheap camera, not?
There IS a very big advantage in using the BDP-105 as a DAC though IMO: most AVR's do not allow digital inputs to be distributed to zone 2/3. Zone 2 happens to be my office and I was obliged to purchase a DAC simply to be able to play the streamed music from my iMac in my office. Many times I desired to listen to the talkshow in my office my wife was watching in the adjacent living room, but alaas, that's the Satellite box, which is HDMI. With the BDP-105, that problem is solved. Worth the 500 euro or so extra over the BDP-103, since my DacMagic costs that much.
I have the BDP-83SE NuForce, which is superb in stereo (certainly superior over the DacMagic)

As someone who anticipated being able to use the DAC to stream audio files from my Mac Mini, I'm not concerned about the rumored lack of upsampling. My DAC is capable of that, and I use that function sparingly as it is. What does concern me is a comment made on another forum by someone who said he talked to Oppo yesterday about the DAC function. According to the poster, Oppo told him that the DAC will not be AIFF or Apple Lossless compatible. If that will be true, I am very disppointed to hear that, as I have my entire collection ripped in AIFF.
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post #207 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

It looks like a tough nut to crack to me. More so than the digital DRM schemes we've had so far. I'm not expecting a breakthrough.
-Bill

You may be correct, but I thought the same about DVD-A watermarking.

It does make me very glad to have my two Oppo 93's in the meantime, even if I add a Cinavia-enabled player in the future. Cinavia may well drive even more people to HTPC's and media streamers.
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post #208 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by scolumbo View Post

Cinavia may well drive even more people to HTPC's and media streamers.

Well, then, more people need to be introduced to trusted computing.

-Bill
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post #209 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by frombhto323 View Post

As someone who anticipated being able to use the DAC to stream audio files from my Mac Mini, I'm not concerned about the rumored lack of upsampling. My DAC is capable of that, and I use that function sparingly as it is. What does concern me is a comment made on another forum by someone who said he talked to Oppo yesterday about the DAC function. According to the poster, Oppo told him that the DAC will not be AIFF or Apple Lossless compatible. If that will be true, I am very disppointed to hear that, as I have my entire collection ripped in AIFF.
From what I can see, the audio output jack on the Mac Mini can output digital (you would presumably need a simple adapter cable to convert it to RCA or TOSLINK), so you use that output if you're planning on getting the 105 - that output would definitely be compatible with the 105's digital inputs. Similarly, the Mac Mini should be able to convert the audio on the USB output to LPCM. In short, I'm sure you would be able to come up with a way to get it to work for you.
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post #210 of 2833 Old 09-11-2012, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Q of BanditZ View Post

I'm probably hitting NDA on this but this has me and other people thinking we can use these as switchers/external VPs? If the answer ends up being yes that's going to have me getting ready to sell my Duo and making some other considerations.

Thinking along the same line, although no plan to sell the Duo until we know what the 105 can do.

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