Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 313 - AVS Forum
Forum Jump: 
 250Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #9361 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 04:50 PM
Member
 
clemdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 56
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Are you using HDMI for audio? If using Analog for audio it would be normal for the audio to start before the video handshake finishes.
--Bob

Using HDMI all the way. No analog...
clemdog is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #9362 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 05:02 PM
gsr
Oppo Beta Group
 
gsr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 7,659
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 202 Post(s)
Liked: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I don't know if OPPO can easily duplicate your Windows computer-based DVR setup, but they may be able to rig up a setup to generate the combination of events.
I've got a DMA2100 that I'm not currently using and have offered to lend it to Oppo for testing purposes through the beta channels. That would likely allow them to come very close to duplicating his setup.
gsr is online now  
post #9363 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 05:20 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by clemdog View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Are you using HDMI for audio? If using Analog for audio it would be normal for the audio to start before the video handshake finishes.
--Bob

Using HDMI all the way. No analog...

OK, HDMI Audio is not a separate signal. It is embedded in the "blanking intervals" of HDMI Video. So if audio starts up that says the audio AND video handshaking has completed enough to satisfy your AVR (I'm assuming you are using an AVR).

Now, do you have a single HDMI run? I.e., HDMI from the OPPO to the AVR and then from the AVR to the Display, or are you using both outputs of the OPPO? If using both, this just says the handshake is taking longer to complete to your display than the handshake to your AVR. The various tips that have been posted here for "simplifying" the handshake may help speed things up -- e.g., using an explicit setting for HDMI Color Space instead of AUTO. But the handshake on the OPPO's HDMI 1 output will always be longer than the one on its HDMI 2 output because the HDMI 1 signal path includes two processors that both have to participate in the handshake.

If using a single cable run, that says the handshake from the AVR to the Display is taking additional time to complete. There might be similar settings choices in the video output of the AVR to speed up the handshake.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9364 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 05:30 PM
Advanced Member
 
fatherom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Boston area, MA
Posts: 985
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Back onto the topic of selecting the "Best" combo of Color Space and Deep Color/Dithering, I've found that the answer in MY setup is different for HDMI 1 and for HDMI 2 video output when checked with that "Ratatouille" test.

For HDMI 1 my "Best" output combo is YCbCr 4:4:4 with Deep Color OFF (Dithered). For HDMI 2 my "Best" output combo is RGB Video Level with Deep Color OFF. Dithering is not available on the HDMI 2 output, and I suspect that's why the difference. The HDMI 1 result is "Better" than the HDMI 2 result. This is with explicit 1080p output and 1080p/24 AUTO.
--Bob

Just curious...why RGB for HDMI2? Just wondering based on your earlier comment that it should generally be avoided.

I'm planning to do the Ratatouille test on my BDP-93...I'm assuming the same rules apply?


Epson 5020UB (won on AVSForum!) on Elite Sable 16:9 100", Oppo BDP-83 & 93 (ISO firmware), Dune HD Base 3.0, Darblet, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Onkyo TX-SR707
fatherom is online now  
post #9365 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:10 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatherom View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Back onto the topic of selecting the "Best" combo of Color Space and Deep Color/Dithering, I've found that the answer in MY setup is different for HDMI 1 and for HDMI 2 video output when checked with that "Ratatouille" test.

For HDMI 1 my "Best" output combo is YCbCr 4:4:4 with Deep Color OFF (Dithered). For HDMI 2 my "Best" output combo is RGB Video Level with Deep Color OFF. Dithering is not available on the HDMI 2 output, and I suspect that's why the difference. The HDMI 1 result is "Better" than the HDMI 2 result. This is with explicit 1080p output and 1080p/24 AUTO.
--Bob

Just curious...why RGB for HDMI2? Just wondering based on your earlier comment that it should generally be avoided.

I'm planning to do the Ratatouille test on my BDP-93...I'm assuming the same rules apply?

RGB comes in two flavors. I said to avoid using RGB PC Level. What I use on HDMI 2 is RGB Video Level.

Note in particular that the flavor of RGB in use can *NOT* be detected automatically as part of the HDMI handshake. That means, if you use RGB you must insure the same flavor is in use at both ends of the HDMI cable. If present, this choice will be a MANUAL setting -- for example, as it is in the OPPO's HDMI Color Space setting. Some devices may ONLY work with one flavor or the other, and if that's the case -- i.e., if there's no setting -- then you have to figure out which it is. For home theater, RGB Video Level is the "normal" choice when using RGB.

Unfortunately, there is no standardized language for these settings. RGB Video Level is also known as "Studio RGB". RGB PC Level is also known as "Extended" or "Enhanced" RGB -- don't be fooled as it is STILL not the one you want. Names like this are typically used for the manual setting for video OUTPUT -- as with the OPPO, or for video output adjustment in an AVR. For video INPUT (as in the HDMI Inputs of an AVR or in a Display or TV) the manual setting is often called "Black Level". You'll be able to identify it by the fact that it only offers TWO choices -- as opposed to something like the Brightness slider which is what's really used for adjusting proper rendering of near-black pixels in a Display. The two choices could be called just about any gol-darn thing, and so it can be a neat trick to figure out which is the right one to use in a Display.

And yes, you can use that "Ratatouille" scene with the 93 and the 83 just as with the 103.



ETA: As an example of video input where no choice is offered, the HDMI Inputs of the OPPO assume RGB Video Level if the video input format is RGB. There is no setting in the OPPO to switch that expectation to RGB PC Level.

I'll also add that if a device with both video input and output is working correctly, then there should be no problem using different formats for its video input and its video output. For instance, the OPPO can take YCbCr 4:2:2 formatted video input on its HDMI Inputs and produce RGB Video Level on its HDMI outputs, and that works.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9366 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:17 PM
Newbie
 
Joeesquire1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks for welcoming me Mongo. Oppo recently sent me a test firmware for audio/video synchronization issues with directv receivers. The good news it worked but then i started having issues with certain blu ray movies. I did try the reset and it did not work. But i did not try unplugging it. I will try that also. Thanks.
Joeesquire1 is offline  
post #9367 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:18 PM
Member
 
dhobi's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Bob, my set up HDMI 1 using everything you suggested except using deep color 36 bit ...look awesome try to off just your setup but
my Sony HX-729 look on 36 bit more realistic.... try sharpness +1 but default is looking good on new FW
dhobi is offline  
post #9368 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:21 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhobi View Post

Bob, my set up HDMI 1 using everything you suggested except using deep color 36 bit ...look awesome try to off just your setup but
my Sony HX-729 look on 36 bit more realistic.... try sharpness +1 but default is looking good on new FW
Trust your eyes and what you see with calibration disc charts. It is NORMAL for different displays to work better with different video combos.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9369 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:27 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Jacob305's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,433
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 24
about the audio delay. I remember when I first got the oppo 93. there is a setting for video only yes/no. I noticed less delay when using no in the setting. you might want to try that.
I have no idea on what setting for the 103 since I dont own one. maybe another expert can help with that.

Jacob
Jacob305 is online now  
post #9370 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:27 PM
Newbie
 
Joeesquire1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
Thanks Bill for the welcome. I am in north america. I don't know if it was region a (i admit i don't know what that means). All i can say is one was a rental from blockbuster, another from redbox and another from 3D bluray rental. Thanks.
Joeesquire1 is offline  
post #9371 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:33 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob305 View Post

about the audio delay. I remember when I first got the oppo 93. there is a setting for video only yes/no. I noticed less delay when using no in the setting. you might want to try that.
I have no idea on what setting for the 103 since I dont own one. maybe another expert can help with that.

Jacob

In the 103/105 it happens automatically. If you have both HDMI outputs in use and Split A/V mode set, then audio is automatically muted on the HDMI 1 output.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9372 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:37 PM
One-Man Content Creator
 
wmcclain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 17,726
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked: 383
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeesquire1 View Post

Thanks Bill for the welcome. I am in north america. I don't know if it was region a (i admit i don't know what that means). All i can say is one was a rental from blockbuster, another from redbox and another from 3D bluray rental. Thanks.

Ok, that's all normal.

OPPO sent you test firmware? You should definitely report the disc issues to them.

-Bill
wmcclain is online now  
post #9373 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 06:47 PM
AVS Special Member
 
Mongo171's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Buffalo, NY
Posts: 2,015
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 138 Post(s)
Liked: 751
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeesquire1 View Post

Thanks Bill for the welcome. I am in north america. I don't know if it was region a (i admit i don't know what that means). All i can say is one was a rental from blockbuster, another from redbox and another from 3D bluray rental. Thanks.

Standard DVDs

Region 1: U.S., U.S. Territories, Canada, and Bermuda
Region 2: Japan, Europe, South Africa, and the Middle East, including Egypt
Region 3:Southeast Asia, East Asia, including Hong Kong
Region 4:Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, Mexico, Central America, South America, and the Caribbean
Region 5:Former Soviet Union, Indian subcontinent, Africa, North Korea, and Mongolia
Region 6:China

Blu-ray Discs

Region A/1: North America, Central America, South America, Japan, North Korea, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Southeast Asia.
Region B/2: Europe, Greenland, French territories, Middle East, Africa, Australia and New Zealand.
Region C/3: India, Nepal, Mainland China, Russia, Central and South Asia.

Life without bass is not worth living.
Mongo171 is offline  
post #9374 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 07:33 PM
Newbie
 
Joeesquire1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 4
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 10
I have reported the disc issue to OPPO. They already replied and stated that this is not normal. They sent me a UPS label and asked that the machine be shipped to them along with one of the problem blu ray discs. I will do that this weekend. Thanks.
Joeesquire1 is offline  
post #9375 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 08:49 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
DSperber,
I re-cabled my Comcast/Motorola HD DVR to the OPPO 105 to see what's up with the items you found.

Cabled thusly: Comcast/Motorola HD/DVR HDMI Out --> OPPO 105 BACK HDMI In --> OPPO 105 HDMI 1 Out --> Anthem Statement D2v audio/video pre-pro --> my Display

The Comcast/Motorola HD/DVR is set to send "native" video output resolution with Bitstream audio. The 105 is set to output 1080p on HDMI 1 with LPCM audio.

As a test case, I used a recorded 1080i/60 HBO program which has DD 5.1 audio. The first few minutes of that DVR recording contain HBO, between-show advertising content which is 1080i/60 with DD 2.0 audio, so I was able to use the same program to test both DD 2.0 and DD 5.1 to the HDMI Input of the OPPO.

I have the 105 running the Public Beta 0522B firmware.



First I tried the 30 second skip function in the DVR.

RESULTS:
I was unable to get the OPPO to Crash by doing multiple 30 second skip operations on the DVR, regardless of how fast or slow I did them. This is true both for the DD 2.0 and the DD 5.1 portions of that program.

The video startup after a skip is consistent with what I see when the DVR is connected directly to the D2v. That is, there is usually a brief pause as the DVR gets its act together after the skip.

The audio startup after a skip is ALSO consistent with what I see when the DVR is connected directly to the D2v for HDMI audio/video. That is, the audio may startup at the same time as the video, or there may be an additional delay of about a second. The worst case (not frequent) is that there are a couple false starts of the audio where it begins, then mutes, then begins again -- perhaps twice. But again, I have this with the Comcast directly connected into the D2v as well.

So I'm not seeing any degradation when the signal goes through the OPPO in this fashion, but it may be that I'm just more used to this, because the same thing happens with the OPPO not in the signal path.

NOTE: I NORMALLY use Optical Digital audio with HDMI video from the Comcast into the D2v simply because the Comcast/Motorola hardware has a long history of flaky HDMI implementations, and using Optical for audio eliminates one such potential source of problems with no degradation in quality. Connected THAT way into my D2v, I don't have the "false starts" of audio, but I still DO have the variable speed audio start up.

To be clear, this is *NOT* meant to disprove your results. It's just some evidence that what's going on may be peculiar to what your particular Windows computer-based DVR is doing on its HDMI output.

Oh, I also looked to see if I could spot any changes in audio format being input to the OPPO during these skips, and I could not



I then checked the other playback controls: Skip-back, and various speeds of FF and REW. I couldn't generate any OPPO Crashes with those either regardless of the speed with which I sent commands. The audio startup was consistent with the 30 second skip results above. Video startup after a REW (any speed) took somewhat longer, but again, I'm used to that from this particular DVR.



Lastly I tried to generate the gross lip sync error you experienced.

RESULTS:
In the first test I kept my display ON and left the DVR Paused. The on-screen Info of the OPPO reports the audio input changes to LPCM 2.0 while the DVR is Paused. This has been noted by other Beta Testers, but I'm not sure yet whether it represents a bug or something real that's happening on the HDMI.

In any event, when I let the DVR resume Play after 20 minutes, the audio/video sync was still CORRECT.

NOTE: My DVR does not go into screen saver when Paused. And the OPPO screen saver never activates when viewing an HDMI Input. (I use the Pure button to blank the video output as I've mentioned.)

I then tried not only Pausing the DVR but ALSO turning my Display OFF. The DVR, the OPPO, and my D2v remained ON, and the OPPO remained set to that HDMI Input. I left that for 30 minutes, and then turned the Display back ON.

I found what I expected to find -- the DVR's Paused image with neither screen saver active.

When I let the DVR resume Play, the audio/video sync was still CORRECT.

Again, this is NOT to dismiss what you have spotted, but just to show it doesn't appear to be happening with all DVR configurations fed into the OPPO's HDMI Input.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9376 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 08:52 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Are you using HDMI for audio? If using Analog for audio it would be normal for the audio to start before the video handshake finishes.
--Bob

Bob, Your post inspired me to do some more testing with my system. I used the special features on "The Wizard of Oz" as I know this is one place that I've been consistently experiencing the delay in the audio starting. Specifically, I'm starting the "Frank Morgan as The Wizard of Oz/Professor Marvel" section of the "We Haven't Really Met Properly" feature.

Results:

103 audio to TV via HDMI (Bitstream): Garland's line "You're a very bad man" is completely muted. Audio begins at the very beginning of Morgan's line "Oh no my dear, I'm a very good man..."

103 audio to TV via HDMI (LPCM): Garland's line "You're a very bad man" is completely muted. Audio begins at the very beginning of Morgan's line "Oh no my dear, I'm a very good man..."

103 audio to AVR via TOSLINK: Garland's line "You're a very bad man" is completely muted. Audio begins at the very beginning of Morgan's line "Oh no my dear, I'm a very good man..."

103 audio to AVR via analog (LT/RT): Garland's line "You're a very bad man" is completely muted. Audio begins at the very beginning of Morgan's line "Oh no my dear, I'm a very good man..."

So, no matter which connection, format, and audio receiver I use, I'm getting the exact same results. Also in all cases it appears the first few frames of the video are blanked by the completion of the handshake. Once the selection is playing, I can reverse to the beginning of it and both see the video and hear the audio from the very beginning.

The odd thing I found by accident is that if I allow the "We Haven't Really Met Properly" menu to remain for at least 60 seconds prior to selecting the section, then the handshakes apparently fully complete before audio and video start. No muting and no blanked video. Anything less than 60 seconds on the menu screen prior to selection, then the audio is muted as noted above and the first few frames of the video are blanked.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #9377 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 09:08 PM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
^ That last paragraph is interesting. It suggests to me that there's something flaky going on in the BD-Java programming (part of the content of that disc) for this menu -- perhaps related to menu animation -- which is screwing up the transition to the audio/video when you try to start it. That could EITHER be sloppy programming on the disc -- we've surely seen LOTS of that -- or a bug in the OPPO.

I suggest you email this set of findings to OPPO Tech Support, specifically noting that last paragraph. Be sure to tell them which firmware you have installed (Official 0422 or Public Beta 0522B). Also include the bar code number from the disc's packaging so they can be sure they are looking at the identical version of that disc. This is the set of digits printed under the bar code, including the tiny digit at either end.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9378 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 09:22 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Note in particular that the flavor of RGB in use can *NOT* be detected automatically as part of the HDMI handshake. That means, if you use RGB you must insure the same flavor is in use at both ends of the HDMI cable. If present, this choice will be a MANUAL setting -- for example, as it is in the OPPO's HDMI Color Space setting. Some devices may ONLY work with one flavor or the other, and if that's the case -- i.e., if there's no setting -- then you have to figure out which it is. For home theater, RGB Video Level is the "normal" choice when using RGB.

Interesting. My TV does offer an automatic setting for "RGB Dynamic Range" (for each HDMI input) described as "Select signal dynamic range for RGB input". The options are Auto, Limited and Full. However I have found that this setting does not correctly identify RGB "PC Level" and "Full" must be manually selected.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #9379 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 09:23 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ That last paragraph is interesting. It suggests to me that there's something flaky going on in the BD-Java programming (part of the content of that disc) for this menu -- perhaps related to menu animation -- which is screwing up the transition to the audio/video when you try to start it. That could EITHER be sloppy programming on the disc -- we've surely seen LOTS of that -- or a bug in the OPPO.

I suggest you email this set of findings to OPPO Tech Support, specifically noting that last paragraph. Be sure to tell them which firmware you have installed (Official 0422 or Public Beta 0522B). Also include the bar code number from the disc's packaging so they can be sure they are looking at the identical version of that disc. This is the set of digits printed under the bar code, including the tiny digit at either end.
--Bob

I did just send them the email. I will follow up with the bar code number from the disc. Thanks for suggesting that!
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #9380 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 11:29 PM
AVS Special Member
 
dmusoke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Redondo Beach, CA
Posts: 2,451
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 40 Post(s)
Liked: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Back onto the topic of selecting the "Best" combo of Color Space and Deep Color/Dithering, I've found that the answer in MY setup is different for HDMI 1 and for HDMI 2 video output when checked with that "Ratatouille" test.

For HDMI 1 my "Best" output combo is YCbCr 4:4:4 with Deep Color OFF (Dithered). For HDMI 2 my "Best" output combo is RGB Video Level with Deep Color OFF. Dithering is not available on the HDMI 2 output, and I suspect that's why the difference. The HDMI 1 result is "Better" than the HDMI 2 result. This is with explicit 1080p output and 1080p/24 AUTO.
--Bob

Interesting observations in your setup, Bob. Was the Ratatouille disc an SD-DVD or Bluray? Do you have the 2nd rev of the Spears & Munsil test disk that Oppo has started to sell? I'm curious to see if you still come up with the same conclusions as you did on the Rat disk.

 

I find the whole color space format somewhat benign because at the end of the day, all external color formats are converted into RGB in the display. As you well know, each display has an RGB Dac chip to light up the individual Red, Green and Blue pixels used in the display, regardless of display type or technology(LCD, Plasma, LED). It seems RGB rules regardlessrolleyes.gif...

 

I'm not sure why one display fares better with one color-space versus another since the conversion between RGB and YCbCr color values is a simple precise mathematical formula but I'm sure stranger things happen everyday...


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
dmusoke is offline  
post #9381 of 19199 Old 05-30-2013, 11:54 PM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 103
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

I'm not sure why one display fares better with one color-space versus another since the conversion between RGB and YCbCr color values is a simple precise mathematical formula but I'm sure stranger things happen everyday...

I think it's primarily 2 factors. 1. Some displays end up doing multiple conversions between some of the color spaces and RGB. Best is finding a color space that the display converts to RGB with a single conversion. 2. Does the Oppo or the display do a better job of chroma up-sampling? That's a bit more complicated as there are various factors involved, and it's not always straight forward or obvious which unit is handling the up-sampling.

I found with my display that 4:4:4 was apparently resulting in my TV doing multiple conversions (I suspect 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 then to RGB), unless I turned Game/Text mode "On" on my display. 4:2:2 was allowing the TV to do the chroma up-sampling which it apparently uses the "nearest neighbor" method which is inferior to the chroma up-sampling method used by the Oppo. For me the RGB results were the same as 4:4:4. I cannot tell any difference at all in using the different Deep Color settings, which all produce the exact same banding on color ramps, unless I use RGB PC Level. Of course all this assumes I am interpreting the results correctly.

I'm almost certain the banding is the result of how the TV handles the color information, and has nothing to do with the Oppo. I got the same banding using my Sony BD player.
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #9382 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 12:08 AM
Member
 
Shauri026's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 24
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 13
Hi all,
I'm currently using a "WD My Passport 1TB Portable External Hard Drive Storage USB 3.0" for all of my external media files.
I have it connected to the rear USB port on the back of the 103.
The drive is self contained and gets it's power through the USB of whatever device it's attached to. The drive is going to sleep while watching a BD, Netflix, Roku, etc. When I go back into the 103's menu to access the HDD, the player hangs, leaving me with no choice but to soft reboot it with the "Power Long press" feature.

When the player comes back online, the HDD flashes and accesses. After rougly 10 minutes of non use, the drive sleeps and the Oppo doesn't seem able to wake it up; or it tries, but just becomes non responsive waiting for the drive to wake up (hangs).
At first I thought the drive was just taking it's sweet time waking up, but after several minutes the only button that responds on the 103's remote is "Open/Close Disc Tray" and of course, the "Power Button".

I apologize in advance if this problem has been discussed and perhaps solved already within this thread; however I went searching through the thread for a possible solution and even tried a thread search query. Seems several posters were experiencing the same problem as I am, but no one has discovered a solution to the problem.

I did try hooking up a seperate external HDD that has it's own dedicated power supply, but alas, it went to sleep and refused to wake when the 103 asked it.
The HDDs are not accessing during this wait time, they are quiet and not spinning (they're aleep) until I power cycle the 103.

This is driving me bonkers and I would like to think Oppo would've seen this problem coming during development of the 103.
Has anyone solved this issue???

Thanks

AVR: Yamaha RXV-773WA (3D)
Player: Oppo BDP-103 (3D), Playstation 3 (Gen1), Xbox360 (Gen3)
Sound: JTR Triple 8 (L&R), Quintuple 8 (C), Single 8 (SL&SR), LFE: Polk 550PSW
Display 1: LG 55" 55LD520
Display 2: Mitsubishi HC7800D 3D Projector w/101" Elite Screen Motorized Acoustically transparent...
Shauri026 is offline  
post #9383 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 12:40 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
dmusoke,
As I stated, the test is with the Blu-ray of "Ratatouille", not the SD-DVD.

The video processing path is way more complicated than just what happens at the last step when the pixels light up. Some processing chips do their internal work in YCbCr, others in RGB for example.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9384 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 12:48 AM
Read the FAQ!
 
Bob Pariseau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 27,978
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 577 Post(s)
Liked: 986
KC-Technerd,
Banding or false contours is often a result of basic video levels not being set correctly. The most mysterious of those is Gamma which controls the shape of the response curve between Black and White (or the equivalent in a Color). For historic/technical reasons, that response curve is non-linear. It is more like an exponential -- flatter near black and rising more steeply near white. If you get a pro in to calibrate your display, a lot of the work he does will be in getting Gamma correct using whatever adjustments the Display provides -- some of which may be in service menus.

Spend some quality time in the owner's thread for your Display to learn the types of adjustments knowledgable folks are making. Do NOT expect you can simply copy someone else's settings, but understanding the nature of what they are adjusting (such as avoiding certain Picture Modes or video "enhancement" options) will give you a start.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
Bob Pariseau is online now  
post #9385 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 03:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
KC-Technerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Liberty, MO
Posts: 1,323
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18 Post(s)
Liked: 103
^ Bob,

I certainly do not copy anyone else's settings for my system. I learned that a long time ago. I've been following and learning the subject of video calibration for many years (since LaserDisc days). I've been following the 2 threads for the owners of my display brand and model in these forums for 5 years. There is little discussion in those forums now because many of the owners have moved onto other displays. I found that the user gamma control on my display has no effect on real gamma. If I recall correctly, it only changes black level. In discussions in the forums here, we did find one setting in the service menu that improved gamma slightly, but on my own display this results in a fairly uniform gamma between 2.0 and 2.1 (measured with an i1 Display and ColorHCFR at 10% intervals) so still below optimum. No other control was ever found to improve or control the gamma further. The other user controls (picture, color) have no apparent effect on the banding. I tried reducing the picture (contrast) control to check the effect, but the bands remain in exactly the same positions on the ramps, so I returned it to the maximum that keeps peak white at D65.

I'm very confident that I have the basic video levels set correctly. I've used a combination of patterns between the Spears & Munsil, AVS 709, and Video Essentials HD to set and verify these levels, both by eye and using the i1 Display colorimeter (back when it was new).

After replacing my old Blu-ray player with the Oppo, I found it necessary to increase the color control by 3 increments. Apparently the old player was slightly boosting the chroma.

Brett
KC-Technerd is offline  
post #9386 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 05:16 AM
Member
 
Holzohr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 143
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shauri026 View Post

Hi all,
I'm currently using a "WD My Passport 1TB Portable External Hard Drive Storage USB 3.0" for all of my external media files.
I have it connected to the rear USB port on the back of the 103.
The drive is self contained and gets it's power through the USB of whatever device it's attached to. The drive is going to sleep while watching a BD, Netflix, Roku, etc. When I go back into the 103's menu to access the HDD, the player hangs, leaving me with no choice but to soft reboot it with the "Power Long press" feature.

...

I did try hooking up a seperate external HDD that has it's own dedicated power supply, but alas, it went to sleep and refused to wake when the 103 asked it.
The HDDs are not accessing during this wait time, they are quiet and not spinning (they're aleep) until I power cycle the 103.

This is driving me bonkers and I would like to think Oppo would've seen this problem coming during development of the 103.
Has anyone solved this issue???

Interesting! Not sure if this problem already has been discussed here. Yesterday, I hooked up a WD My Book 1TB (with own dedicated power supply) for testing the MediaControlHD app. I use the rear USB 1 port and have the different problem that the drive doesn`t go to sleep.. lol. I already had this My Book USB drive in use with a former Sat-receiver. Going to sleep was not a problem at that time. That`s a bit annoying to hear the drive though the Oppo is not playing any files from the drive. In my case it could be that the MediaControl app keeps the connection to the Oppo and to the drive alive. I want to check it out later by de-activating w-lan. I have no idea what could help in your case. Maybe, if you have an iPad, install the app biggrin.gif
Holzohr is offline  
post #9387 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 08:53 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Quote:
I'm not sure why one display fares better with one color-space versus another since the conversion between RGB and YCbCr color values is a simple precise mathematical formula but I'm sure stranger things happen everyday...

I can provide a couple of examples of when one format over another matters:

1. The Samsung SP-A800B and SP-A900B perform all processing in 4:4:4. If you send in 4:2:2, it uses nearest neighbor to convert to 4:4:4, which results in 1/2 a pixel shift between chroma and luma. aka YC delay. If you send in RGB, it converts back to 4:4:4 for processing. RGB to YCbCr and visa versa is lossy. Not every value will roundtrip properly. Each conversion can introduce more error.

2. Panasonic VT20. If you sent in 4:4:4, it converts to 4:2:2 and then back to 4:4:4. The 4:4:4 to 4:2:2 introduces 1/2 pixel shift between chroma and luma. aka YC delay.

3. DVDO VP50 and VP50Pro work in 4:2:2. If you send in 4:4:4 or RGB, it will get converted to 4:2:2. There is a large loss of chroma resolution in this process. Send in 4:2:2 and the signal is good to go.

I would bet that all consumer displays convert RGB back into 4:4:4 or 4:2:2 for processing because it costs less. Cheaper parts. If it will save $0.01, they will do it because their margins are so low. On some displays you will not see any difference between 4:4:4 and 4:2:2.

If you have not read our article on Choosing a Color Space, you should. It points out some differences when errors occur.
sspears is offline  
post #9388 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 09:01 AM
Member
 
hydrotex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Modesto, CA
Posts: 198
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 11 Post(s)
Liked: 14
What is that "Ratatouille" test?
hydrotex is online now  
post #9389 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 09:26 AM
AVS Special Member
 
gadgtfreek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,020
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 178 Post(s)
Liked: 369
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Interesting observations in your setup, Bob. Was the Ratatouille disc an SD-DVD or Bluray? Do you have the 2nd rev of the Spears & Munsil test disk that Oppo has started to sell? I'm curious to see if you still come up with the same conclusions as you did on the Rat disk.

I find the whole color space format somewhat benign because at the end of the day, all external color formats are converted into RGB in the display. As you well know, each display has an RGB Dac chip to light up the individual Red, Green and Blue pixels used in the display, regardless of display type or technology(LCD, Plasma, LED). It seems RGB rules regardless:rolleyes: ...

I'm not sure why one display fares better with one color-space versus another since the conversion between RGB and YCbCr color values is a simple precise mathematical formula but I'm sure stranger things happen everyday...

I also tend to see more banding with ycbcr 422 vs 444. While its true most displays do convert to RGB at the end, using spears and munsil patterns as well as content, you can see that while sometimes 422 works better than 444, other times 444 works better. Many times straight RGB in doesnt work well at all for whatever reason. Then some players have issues with 422 vs 444 and accuracy.

This is the main reason any time I test a new combo of devices, I always throw in the spears and munsil disc, it lets you know right away.

The VT50 also added a new feature where if you send it 1080p/ycbcr 444, it processes it without conversion, or is supposed to if you turn the feature on. I've found good results on patterns with this option on, so ycbcr 444 is a must for me on this display.

65" VT50 / BDP-S7200
Denon AVR-4520CI
Klipsch RF82 II and RC62 II / Hsu VTF-15H (2)
Directv HR44-200 / HR24-500
gadgtfreek is offline  
post #9390 of 19199 Old 05-31-2013, 09:57 AM
AVS Special Member
 
sspears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Sammamish, WA, USA
Posts: 5,252
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Liked: 54
Something I forgot to mention, is that 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 is a scaling operation much like 480p to 1080p. You have various algorithms that do the scaling from nearest neighbor to bilinear to bicubic. Panasonic uses something even fancier when you enable their advanced chroma processing.

4:4:4 to RGB is matrix math for those that remember algebra. BT.709 provides this matrix math in floating point, which is also what Poynton publishes in his book. Keith Jack publishes a shortcut in his book. These two method's don't always produce the same results. Sometimes the shortcut is off by one. In the article, I mention above, there is an even worse shortcut that several, including Panasonic, has gotten wrong. Secrets of Home Theater has been publishing player reviews that point out when they get the shortcut wrong by using our monotonicity pattern with an HDMI analyzer that reads every pixel value before and after conversion.
sspears is offline  
Reply Blu-ray Players

Tags
Oppo Bdp 103 3d Blu Ray Player , Oppo Bdp 105 Blu Ray Player , Oppo Bdp 93 Blu Ray Player , Oppo Digital Inc



Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off