Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 561 - AVS Forum
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post #16801 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 10:21 AM
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Not sure if this is a bug or not but will report it here anyway.
I like to see my subtitles as low on the screen as possible; so I use the shift setting of -3.
This works great for all my bluray discs. But when watching for example deleted scenes of an episode of Star Trek Enterprise on Bluray the subtitles are 50% below the screen. On the actual episode they are fine with the same setting.
Is this due to the fact that the deleted scenes are in 60hz and the episode in 24hz? Or is this a bug?
Using latest BETA FW.

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post #16802 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 10:25 AM
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The difference is due to the Extras content being on the Blu-ray as SD instead of HD. The subtitle shift moves the subtitles different amounts according to the content resolution. It is also possible for discs to be authored with different default subtitle positions -- the shift is relative to the default position.
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post #16803 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 10:51 AM
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^Thanks, Bob. It is indeed in SD. So nothing to do about that I guess and definitely not a bug smile.gif

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post #16804 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 01:29 PM
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I was setting up a new projector (BenQ W1070) last night and used a Redmere cable I purchased a few weeks back. I use HDMI 1to the projector and HDMI 2 to an old 720p tv and use the analog outs (5.1) to my pre/pro. After swapping out the old projector for the new one, all was fine until I changed the resolution to 1080p. I was watching my satellite box at the time connected to HDMI in back. When I changed to 1080p the BenQ lost the picture and no amount of rebooting would get it back. It never occurred to me the cable could be the issue so it took me a while to figure what failed. After connecting an old HDMI cable I am back in business, although the Redmere seemed to have stronger color. Any ideas what went wrong? I had changed resolutions in the past in this manner, using the button on the bottom left of the remote, without problems.

Thanks
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post #16805 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 02:53 PM
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HDMI cables of all types fail with similar frequency rates. New ones, old ones, expensive ones, cheap ones, a certain number will fail.
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post #16806 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 03:54 PM
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So it was the cable and not something I did when playing around with the settings? Is sudden failure like this peculiar to Redmere because of the chip?
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post #16807 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tyler webb View Post


I have the Oppo-103 and Yamaha RX-V375 combo and have NO issues at all.


Hey Tyler, Is that the RX-V375 5.1 Chanel or 7.1 ? I have the 5.1.  and are you hooking up HDMI  out directly to your AV receiver , or HDMI out to  your  TV ?

 

Thanks man

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post #16808 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 05:04 PM
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Ok, I must be missing something obvious. Why can't I see any files from the Oppo MediaControl App on my iPhone. I shows my Mac and PC on the network, but no files on either. Both are running DLNA servers and I can play music from the fine using the Oppo UI going to network. But I'd like to use my phone to play files so I don't have to turn the TV on. What's the trick to sharing a folder so this app can see them?
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post #16809 of 19022 Old 05-10-2014, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by TrickyT View Post

Ok, I must be missing something obvious. Why can't I see any files from the Oppo MediaControl App on my iPhone. I shows my Mac and PC on the network, but no files on either. Both are running DLNA servers and I can play music from the fine using the Oppo UI going to network. But I'd like to use my phone to play files so I don't have to turn the TV on. What's the trick to sharing a folder so this app can see them?

Never mind, figured it out. I created a share outside of the DLNA server, but it didn't show up on the app. While reading the help for the 20th time, it showed up.
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post #16810 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 04:46 AM
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The AV Sync setting on the 103, you can set the value negative (to the left) and positive (to the right). If you set it negative you are delaying the audio or are you making it faster ?
Can not seem to find it in the manual.

I now have a certain value lip sync correction set in the Oppo and a certain value lip sync correction in my AVR, thats why I need to be sure about the negative/positive thing.
Or you guys recommend just putting one correction in one of the two devices is better? If yes, which device?

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post #16811 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Odessey View Post


Hey Tyler, Is that the RX-V375 5.1 Chanel or 7.1 ? I have the 5.1.  and are you hooking up HDMI  out directly to your AV receiver , or HDMI out to  your  TV ?

Thanks man

The RX-V375 is only a 5.1 Chanel Reciver. I send my 103, Xbox One and DTV to the V375 all threw there HDMI outs. And let the Yamaha do the HDMI switching out to my F8500. The only issue I have had was watching blu rays with my old HDMI cables. Audio and video would play for 5 minutes or so and them drop out. And it was all because my cables could not handle all the info being sent threw them. Ordered some new 28 AWG high speed cables from Monoprice and they solved the issue immediately.
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post #16812 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post

The AV Sync setting on the 103, you can set the value negative (to the left) and positive (to the right). If you set it negative you are delaying the audio or are you making it faster ?
Can not seem to find it in the manual.

I now have a certain value lip sync correction set in the Oppo and a certain value lip sync correction in my AVR, thats why I need to be sure about the negative/positive thing.
Or you guys recommend just putting one correction in one of the two devices is better? If yes, which device?
Negative will delay the audio. You should only make adjustments in more than 1 device if you can't make enough adjustment in 1. And you certainly shouldn't make opposite adjustments as you'll end up back where you started. wink.gif
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post #16813 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 09:02 AM
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^ Hang on, that's backwards.

A positive value of the A/V Sync setting ADDS Audio Delay. This is the normal use, i.e., to add delay to the audio to compensate for slow video processing in your Display.

An A/V Sync setting of +40ms will delay the audio an additional 40ms.

The default setting of 0ms means that audio and video are in sync -- aligned in time -- at the player's outputs, regardless of the combo of inputs, outputs, formats, and processing settings in use.

To accomplish that, the player has its own, built-in audio delay adjustments which match audio to the video processing time needed inside the player itself for the combo in use. This is complicated stuff, but you don't need to know the details. It is OPPO's job to do this correctly regardless of your choice of connections, formats and settings.

Audio delay is accomplished by buffering the digital audio stream. Video processing is always the thing that takes longer, so delaying audio is the only correction needed. This is a good thing, since attempting to buffer video (i.e., to delay video) would take way too much memory.

OK, so what about the NEGATIVE A/V Sync setting choices?

A negative valued A/V Sync setting REDUCES the default audio delay built into the player to match audio and video at the player's outputs. It makes audio come out earlier.

Now think about that. I just said you can't delay video, and obviously you can't make the audio play ahead of what's coming in as content. So the only way to make audio come out earlier is to reduce the DEFAULT delay the player is providing!

So a negative A/V Sync setting will make audio come out earlier only SO FAR. Once you have eliminated all of the default delay built into the player for your combo of inputs, outputs, formats, and processing settings, making the A/V Sync setting even MORE Negative will make no further difference.

The things to keep in mind are:

1: A/V Sync of 0ms is the default. Audio and Video are IN SYNC, by design, at the player's outputs.

2: A/V Sync greater than 0 adds audio delay. This is the normal adjustment to correct for uncompensated video processing time in your AVR or Display.

3: A/V Sync less than 0 reduces audio delay, but only up to the built-in delay the player needs to accomplish (1), above, according to your current usage. If you find you need to use a negative value, that usually means your AVR is mistakenly applying too much audio delay ITSELF.

Again, video processing is ALWAYS the time consuming thing, so how could the AVR screw this up? First the AVR may be set for automatic lip sync correction, and the requested delay value it is reading from your Display to accomplish that (it's really just that simple-minded) may be BOGUS.

Another common way this happens is when you use both HDMI outputs and thus bypass the AVR for video. The AVR doesn't know that's happening, and so it may be adding an unneeded chunk of audio delay all on its own -- i.e., even if you SET IT to zero added delay -- to compensate for its own (unused!) video processing time. I call this the "helpful AVR" problem. Cure that by disabling video output from the AVR, or setting it to "video pass through" so the AVR can know it is not expected to process the video.

The more normal case, where you need to ADD audio delay (A/V Sync greater than 0) may be curable by turning off unnecessary or cumbersome video processing in your Display. Common time wasters in many displays are video "enhancement" processing and "motion smoothing". Some Displays also take too long when fed 1080p/24. Set 1080p/24 Output OFF in the OPPO for those. And it is almost always best to disable video "enhancements" in Displays. These are designed to make poor quality video more tolerable and just get in the way when playing high quality video as from the OPPO.
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post #16814 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 09:11 AM
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^ Hang on, that's backwards.
Oops - that's what I get for posting too early in the morning smile.gif.
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post #16815 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 09:15 AM
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^ To complete this picture, a few more items.

First, you talked about transferring an audio delay setting from your AVR to the OPPO. Although that may be just what's needed (zero it out in the AVR and let the OPPO do it), that may also give INCORRECT results. Why? Because if you have a "helpful AVR", its true audio delay will be the combo of the setting you set yourself and whatever it is imposing as its own, built-in, default delay to compensate for its own video processing time.

Which basically means, you have to check and see whether you are getting the correct result.

And to do THAT, the important thing is to be sure you check with test material of known sync quality. And THAT means using a calibration disc, as it is way too common for audio and video to be out of sync in actual movie content. If you see sync errors that vary by scene for example, you are almost certainly seeing inherent error in the content, which may date all the way back to errors in the original theatrical release!

Good A/V Sync test charts are available on "Spears & Munsil version 2", Blu-ray, available from OPPO, and Disney's "WOW World of Wonder", Blu-ray, available from Amazon.

Generally speaking it is best to keep things simple and have one device do any needed sync adjustment. If your AVR is accomplishing that -- as confirmed by checking with a calibration disc -- then there's no point in transferring that job to the OPPO. Leave the OPPO at A/V Sync 0ms and let the AVR do the job.

If the AVR is NOT doing it correctly, for whatever reason, or if the AVR does not offer sync adjustment, then you can use the setting in the OPPO as needed. Again, set this with a calibration disc.
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post #16816 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 09:39 AM
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^ An additional thought on the the math here:

The A/V Sync setting in the OPPO provides fine control -- a step size of +/- 10 ms -- but some people think they need even finer control than that.

Not true. It's all in their mind!

At 24 frames per second, each frame of video takes 41 2/3 ms. That means 10ms is less than 1/4 of ONE FRAME TIME. The eye and ear can not really detect an error smaller than one frame time because there is no video to compare against except this frame, the frame just before it, and the frame just after it. I.e., the brain is EXTRAPOLATING the error from the frames available, and extrapolating an error as small as 1/4 frame time is a neat trick.

(It's also well beyond the standard for sync quality the studios are trying to achieve when they make the films in the first place!)

At 60 frames per second, each frame of video takes 16 2/3ms. Again 10ms is less than one frame time.

The usual reason people think they need a finer step size is that they are having observational trouble checking the sync -- even with a calibration chart. The brain likes things to be in sync. If given half a chance it will fool you. It actually takes a bit of practice, and a good deal of focus, to use these sync charts without getting fooled.

One good trick is to deliberately set a substantial amount of error -- say 50ms -- either side of correct. First, see if the chart shows the same amount of error either side, and with the error in place, gauge where the CORRECT setting should be. Then try that again with 40ms either side, then 30ms, then 20ms, then 10ms. It should be come significantly harder to see the difference as you reduce the error either side of CORRECT. If you lose track of that, go back to a larger error number and work in again.

You may discover it is easier for you to see the error in one direction than in the other. This is normal. You can probably train yourself to see the error equally in both directions by concentrating while using larger error values and then pinching in on correct with smaller error values. But if you find you are more adept at seeing the error in one direction, then use that by sneaking up on the correct setting from that side.

And it's also good not to spend too much time using a sync chart. Take a break and come back to it to make sure your brain can focus on the task at hand.

Also be aware that your Display may react differently when fed different video formats. So for example, if you use both 1080p/24 and 1080p/60 video output, check sync both ways to be sure your Display isn't screwing up one way compared to the other.
--Bob
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post #16817 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ To complete this picture, a few more items.

First, you talked about transferring an audio delay setting from your AVR to the OPPO. Although that may be just what's needed (zero it out in the AVR and let the OPPO do it), that may also give INCORRECT results. Why? Because if you have a "helpful AVR", its true audio delay will be the combo of the setting you set yourself and whatever it is imposing as its own, built-in, default delay to compensate for its own video processing time.

Which basically means, you have to check and see whether you are getting the correct result.

And to do THAT, the important thing is to be sure you check with test material of known sync quality. And THAT means using a calibration disc, as it is way too common for audio and video to be out of sync in actual movie content. If you see sync errors that vary by scene for example, you are almost certainly seeing inherent error in the content, which may date all the way back to errors in the original theatrical release!

Good A/V Sync test charts are available on "Spears & Munsil version 2", Blu-ray, available from OPPO, and Disney's "WOW World of Wonder", Blu-ray, available from Amazon.

Generally speaking it is best to keep things simple and have one device do any needed sync adjustment. If your AVR is accomplishing that -- as confirmed by checking with a calibration disc -- then there's no point in transferring that job to the OPPO. Leave the OPPO at A/V Sync 0ms and let the AVR do the job.

If the AVR is NOT doing it correctly, for whatever reason, or if the AVR does not offer sync adjustment, then you can use the setting in the OPPO as needed. Again, set this with a calibration disc.
--Bob

Thanks for the detailed explanation Bob !
Too bad Oppo is not shipping the S&M 2 Bluray to Belgium though. But I see it is also available on amazon. I wish there was some other way to just test the AV sync. Isn't there any good video on the net which you can download to test this?
Bit expensive to buy the S&M just for the sync test... I know it also has alot of other tests, but i already have AVS HD 709 for that.

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post #16818 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post

Isn't there any good video on the net which you can download to test this?
I use the 'BBC HD Audio sync test'... I've just uploaded it to my OneDrive. You can find it here...


Cheers
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post #16819 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 01:37 PM
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A/V synch issue with FIOS and upsampling..
Before the firmware upgrade from September 2013, I had an intermittent a/v synch with the Cisco HD recorder hooked directly to the 105 and simple analog audio out to a soundbar. I would get around it for awhile by switching to another input for a few seconds and then returning. It was gradually getting worse as I was watching US Open tennis and the ball would be passing the net before I heard the racket hitting the ball. The firmware upgrade then completely cured that problemhttp://files.avsforum.com/images/smilies/wink.gif. It was an unannounced upgrade that did the trick for me.
Another insight I have regards upsampling with the Cisco recorder and FIOS. I just leave the Cisco to upsample to 1080i and let the OPPO just upscale to 1080P I have the OPPO connected to a Panny 50GT50 and I could never discern any difference from the Oppo doing the upsampling from SD content or 720P than the Cisco doing it to 1080i and you don't get the delay- Importand on NFL Sundays if you constantly switch from FOX(720p) to the Red Zone (1080i).
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post #16820 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by SeeMoreDigital View Post

I use the 'BBC HD Audio sync test'... I've just uploaded it to my OneDrive. You can find it here...


Cheers

Thanks! Will use that for some testing smile.gif

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post #16821 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 04:42 PM
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How good are the dacs in the 103? Is there that mich of a discernable difference when running CD's and streaming lossless files thru apple tv? Compared to 105 and other stand alone dacs? I don't use HD music or SACD. I can listen thru hdmi to my cambridge or bypass cambridge dac with analogs from oppo so utlize oppo 103 dac. BUT main question, with music I am using, will a "better" dac make a difference?

Thx
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post #16822 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 06:41 PM
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Links to sites selling hacked firmware are not allowed.

Please use the report post button to alert staff to problematic posts. Never quote or respond to them yourself
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post #16823 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ron hawaii View Post

How good are the dacs in the 103? Is there that mich of a discernable difference when running CD's and streaming lossless files thru apple tv? Compared to 105 and other stand alone dacs? I don't use HD music or SACD. I can listen thru hdmi to my cambridge or bypass cambridge dac with analogs from oppo so utlize oppo 103 dac. BUT main question, with music I am using, will a "better" dac make a difference?

Thx

You won't hear much, if any, difference between the player and a decent AVR. The DAC is better than any player in the <$1000 price range. Comparing to the 105 or a high-end DAC isn't really fair, but it is fair to say that you'd need a pretty high-end setup to hear the differences between any of the above.
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post #16824 of 19022 Old 05-11-2014, 08:03 PM
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My latest A/V synchronization measurements with firmware version BDP10X-70-0218 are attached below. This appears to be a significant improvement over what I measured on a previous firmware version, but when I made those measurements I was unaware of the variance caused by new HDMI handshakes, and I was using a less precise measuring device.

I only consider the differences between each of the configurations noted in red, and each of the configurations noted in blue completely attributable to the Oppo BDP-103. Differences in results between any other configurations could be a result of differences in processing times for each video configuration at the video display, or audio processing in the AVR.

The Spears & Munsil 2nd Edition disc was used for these measurements.



I have not yet made any measurements with firmware version BDP10X-75-0430B to see if there are any differences.
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post #16825 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 02:41 AM
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^Nice testing, I have noticed the same behaviour but I have not done any measurements to support it.
I have the same setup as you (HDMI 1 directly from Oppo to TV, HDMI 2 from Oppo to AVR for the audio).

You should really do the test again with the latest BETA firmware, Oppo told me there were some changes made regarding the AV sync, which are not mentionned in the changelog.

In regards to your screenshot : I dont really understand these results. How are you measuring this?
Blue is incorrect due to the Oppo? And red is?

The new HDMI handshake you mention, how do you do this?
Because when I used some lip sync videos (one is posted here above) for testing it seemed that every setting was the same. But I guess that is due to the fact I have to make a new HDMI handshake...

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post #16826 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

My latest A/V synchronization measurements with firmware version BDP10X-70-0218 are attached below.

Can you please explain this exactly? Is the following a correct summary?

Taking for example the DTS HD 24p LPCM test: your AVR has a fixed delay of 80mS programmed in (80mS ~= 2 frames @ 24Hz); and -- after successive HDMI handshakes -- you measured deviations of -50, -35, -40, -20, -20, -40mS to be subtracted from this fixed 80mS ??

If this is true, then frankly I am horrified, since your table implies that the Oppo is making two mistakes as follows:

  1. That the delay is variable dependent on HDMI handshakes. Insofar as the Oppo does not support the HDMI A/V sync handshake protocol, this should not be the case.
  2. That the delay is variable dependent on the source audio & video encoding format. The Oppo should internally process source related issues and always output in the same A/V time relationship.
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post #16827 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 07:51 AM
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When I arrive to work I will try and read through the 561 pages of this thread to get this and other questions answered, for the time being I'm just going to ask and hope for kindness.

I am seriously considering purchasing the 103, mainly for the up-scaling ability.

Here is my gear:
Standard Def service from DirecTv, my Cable Box/DVR does not output using HDMI, just RCA R/W/Y cables.
Onkyo NR809 AVR
60" Sharp Aquos Quattron 3d

Looking at pics of the back of the Oppo 103 it has HDMI inputs but no RCA inputs? It does have (2)Orange/White looking Coaxial inputs?

How would input my Std Def DirecTv Cable Box into the Oppo so that I can upscale the Std Def Cable service to HD content?

I am very much a rookie at AVR/Home Theater stuff and the little I do know I've learned from asking questions here.

I'm pretty sure my current TV and AVR cannot upscale the Standard Def to HD Def., but I could be wrong on that?, that's the main reason I am thinking of purchasing the 103 as it can do this?

I'm a cheap bastard and don't want to pay for HD Content from DirecTV just yet thus with a potential Oppo purchase and awaiting arrival of a Mohu Sky Outdoor Powered HD antenna I'm hoping to get some HD content without the huge monthly fees. With the upscaling though I am familiar with the term "Garbage in Garbage out", hopefully with the AMAZING reviews of the Oppo I can get the results I seek.

Any advice, comments, suggestions are certainly welcomed, hell even criticism, I need to hear it all.

Thanks.
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post #16828 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 08:08 AM
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Opps, after looking at the manual and running through the wiring of my current set up in my head I think I figured out how to hook it up.

Cable Box RCA's currently run into my AVR
AVR currently outputs to TV with HDMI
I can run that outputted AVR HDMI feed into the Oppo HDMI IN, then run an HDMI from the Oppo HDMI out to the TV HDMI In.

So I guess the only question now is, will the upscaling give me a good looking HD fed on my TV?

*ARGH*
After thinking a bit more on this, if I go Cable Box>AVR>Oppo HDMI In>OppoHDMIOut>TV......Will that give me the audio through the AVR or will it come out only through the TV speakers as I am feeding the TV with the upscaled content, not the AVR?

Will I have to hook up like the following CableBox>AVR>OppoHDMI In>OppoHDMI Out1>TV...OppoHDMIOut2>AVR>.....?

Dammit am I stupid.....Please help.
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post #16829 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post



If this is true, then frankly I am horrified, since your table implies that the Oppo is making two mistakes as follows:

  1. That the delay is variable dependent on HDMI handshakes. Insofar as the Oppo does not support the HDMI A/V sync handshake protocol, this should not be the case.
  2. That the delay is variable dependent on the source audio & video encoding format. The Oppo should internally process source related issues and always output in the same A/V time relationship.

Lets say that if one certain x value of lip sync in the AVR is not always correct due to the Oppo or due to the source audio & video encoding format.
Would it be a solution if by setting the Oppo at any different value than ZERO results in the Oppo DISABLING the internal syncing of the audio and video and only using the value you have specified in the av sync setting of the Oppo ?

Panasonic TX-P50GT60 / Marantz SR5004 / 4 x KEF HTS 3001 SE (front + rear) + HTC 3001 SE (centre) + REL T-9 sub / Oppo BDP-103EU (MultiRegion+MultiZone)
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post #16830 of 19022 Old 05-12-2014, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post

^Nice testing, I have noticed the same behaviour but I have not done any measurements to support it.
I have the same setup as you (HDMI 1 directly from Oppo to TV, HDMI 2 from Oppo to AVR for the audio).

You should really do the test again with the latest BETA firmware, Oppo told me there were some changes made regarding the AV sync, which are not mentionned in the changelog.

In regards to your screenshot : I dont really understand these results. How are you measuring this?
Blue is incorrect due to the Oppo? And red is?

The new HDMI handshake you mention, how do you do this?
Because when I used some lip sync videos (one is posted here above) for testing it seemed that every setting was the same. But I guess that is due to the fact I have to make a new HDMI handshake...

I'm using an iPhone 5s camera (120fps frame rate) with an app that shows me both the video capture and a graphical representation of the audio in a way that I can measure the time difference between the two in ms.

The testing is fairly time consuming, in making the HDMI handshakes occur between each sample, and making sure each configuration is properly setup, and then in evaluating the results. I took 5 samples last night for DTS HD-MA bitstream (on the new firmware). On that configuration there doesn't seem to be any significant difference from the previous firmware.

The lines in red can be compared with each other (in my opinion) to evaluate whether the Oppo is delivering LPCM output in the same A/V synchronization for both Dolby True HD and DTS-HD MA. On both the red lines the AVR is receiving LPCM, and the TV is receiving 1080/24p. Since in both cases the outboard devices are receiving identical input, this should eliminate those devices as a possible source of any changes in audio or video delay.

The same is true for the blue lines, where the AVR is receiving LPCM, and the TV is receiving 1080/60. Comparing them with each other makes it appear the BDP-103 takes about 20ms longer to process DTS-HD MA to LPCM than it does to process Dolby True HD to LPCM.

I switch the video between 24p and 60i to force a handshake. On the Spears & Munsil disc, I do this by momentarily playing the 2.3.2.3 pattern between each sample I take on the 24p pattern. When sampling the 2.3.2.3 pattern, I simply go back to the menu which appears in 24p.
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