Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 562 - AVS Forum
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post #16831 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewFG View Post

Can you please explain this exactly? Is the following a correct summary?

Taking for example the DTS HD 24p LPCM test: your AVR has a fixed delay of 80mS programmed in (80mS ~= 2 frames @ 24Hz); and -- after successive HDMI handshakes -- you measured deviations of -50, -35, -40, -20, -20, -40mS to be subtracted from this fixed 80mS ??

If this is true, then frankly I am horrified, since your table implies that the Oppo is making two mistakes as follows:

  1. That the delay is variable dependent on HDMI handshakes. Insofar as the Oppo does not support the HDMI A/V sync handshake protocol, this should not be the case.
  2. That the delay is variable dependent on the source audio & video encoding format. The Oppo should internally process source related issues and always output in the same A/V time relationship.

1. The variable delay dependent on the HDMI handshakes may not be the Oppo at all. I consider my oldest component in the chain as being the more likely source of that, which is my 2008 Sony TV. It may not be consistently synching its display to the incoming HDMI signal to that level of precision. The AVR also can't be positively eliminated as being a source of that variation.

2. I suggest not trying to draw any conclusions about the Oppo itself from these results other than comparing the blue lines to each other, and comparing the red lines to each other. In comparing any of the other lines to each other, variations in the processing time of different audio formats by the AVR, and different video formats by the video display have to be considered as a possible source or contributor to the variation.
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post #16832 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 08:27 AM
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Looks to me like what's actually being measured is the video lag in the display, which might be expected to change based on the type of input. Most displays have settings which can eliminate that type issue and related delays. 24p processing is infamous for causing lag.
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post #16833 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

1. The variable delay dependent on the HDMI handshakes may not be the Oppo at all. I consider my oldest component in the chain as being the more likely source of that, which is my 2008 Sony TV. It may not be consistently synching its display to the incoming HDMI signal to that level of precision. The AVR also can't be positively eliminated as being a source of that variation.

2. I suggest not trying to draw any conclusions about the Oppo itself from these results other than comparing the blue lines to each other, and comparing the red lines to each other. In comparing any of the other lines to each other, variations in the processing time of different audio formats by the AVR, and different video formats by the video display have to be considered as a possible source or contributor to the variation.

I agree you can only really look at the red & blue lines since that is LPCM. But even in these cases the differences are quite huge.
I would suggest doing another test with the new beta firmware to be sure that there is no recent improvement.

@rdgrimes : ''24p processing is infamous for causing lag''
Well for me it is not really an option to watch Blu-ray in any other framerate than 24p since that will cause judder due to the interpollation when for instance watching it at 60fps.

Panasonic TX-P50GT60 / Marantz SR5004 / 4 x KEF HTS 3001 SE (front + rear) + HTC 3001 SE (centre) + REL T-9 sub / Oppo BDP-103EU (MultiRegion+MultiZone)
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post #16834 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 08:45 AM
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^ Hang on. "The differences are quite huge"??? Uh, no.

We are talking about SUB FRAME TIME differences here.

Again, at 24 frames per second, each frame of video takes 41 2/3ms.

So 5ms is less than 1/8th of a frame time. 20ms is less than 1/2 of a frame time.

Each frame is, in and of itself, a static image. So, umm, which 1/8th of a static image is the sound supposed to align with? The first 1/8th? The middle 1/8th?



These are fun results to ponder, but I wouldn't rush to act upon them. Results like this beg several questions.

First, what was the quality standard in the production of those two tracks on the test disc? I.e., how close to identical were they AUTHORED to be in the first place? 1/8th of a frame time? I doubt it. Half a frame time? More likely.

Second, how does the capture app trigger? What is its delay in triggering? Presumably the trigger has to cross some threshold. Is the slope of the change (a function of the authoring) the same for both tests? I.e., even if the authored timing is truly identical, does the capture app trigger at the same point for both?

I think it's nifty to see test results like this, but don't read more into them than the methodology truly supports.

There may actually be a timing difference here in the OPPO. It wouldn't be a "processing" time difference -- those are small. It would be in the table of default timing corrections. But we are talking about differences here which are essentially unobservable in real-world content.
--Bob


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post #16835 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 09:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post

I agree you can only really look at the red & blue lines since that is LPCM. But even in these cases the differences are quite huge.
I would suggest doing another test with the new beta firmware to be sure that there is no recent improvement.

I will try to complete my measurements on the beta firmware as I have time.

The difference averages out to about 20ms, and I wouldn't call that huge. I am quite skeptical of the idea that audio and video can be synched to 10ms or less from a test pattern without using some type of measuring device. I would like to see the results of those who believe they can determine the correct audio delay based on eyeball and eardrum alone measured with an accurate device. I'm curious what the results would be.

From what I've read, and it makes sense to me, humans don't perceive slightly delayed audio as being out of sync. Anything from audio being about 20ms ahead to 95ms behind the image is all perceived as being perfectly in sync. Unless we are standing very close to what we are observing, the sound is lagging behind the image. Because of the differences in the speed of light and the speed of sound, If we are witnessing some activity, such as a person speaking, from 40 feet away the sound is about 45ms behind the image. I don't know anyone who perceives this as being out of sync.

The difficulty this presents is being able to accurately synchronize audio and video using a A/V synchronization pattern with our eyes and ears alone. The benefit of it is that if we can contain all the audio to image variation to within that roughly 20ms early to 95ms late range, we won't perceive it as being out of sync. There is room for error and variation.
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post #16836 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 09:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Each frame is, in and of itself, a static image. So, umm, which 1/8th of a static image is the sound supposed to align with? The first 1/8th? The middle 1/8th?

I have been using the first instant that the frame image appears as the point to synchronize the audio to. On a plasma or CRT each frame image is not displayed for a full 30th or 24th of a second, while on LCD or LCOS it is (or may not be depending on dark frame insertion). In other words, I base the measurement on the audio starting the same time as the image from the frame regardless of how long the frame is displayed by the display.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

First, what was the quality standard in the production of those two tracks on the test disc? I.e., how close to identical were they AUTHORED to be in the first place? 1/8th of a frame time? I doubt it. Half a frame time? More likely.

That is a good question. Based on the quality of the rest of Spears & Munsil work, I am assuming that the quality standard is pretty high, but how high I don't know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Second, how does the capture app trigger? What is its delay in triggering? Presumably the trigger has to cross some threshold. Is the slope of the change (a function of the authoring) the same for both tests? I.e., even if the authored timing is truly identical, does the capture app trigger at the same point for both?

There isn't a trigger on the capture app other than stopping and stopping the recording. It captures video at 120fps and audio. 120fps is 8.33ms per frame. I can interpolate to be a bit more accurate than that if the frame transition of the source occurs between frame transitions on the capture. Sorry, but it's a bit difficult to explain. I've attached a video demo of it below that might better illustrate the basics of how it works. While there may be some error in the capture between audio and video any error appears to be consistent. If I put up the S&M test pattern, and take several samples of it while it's playing continuously, the indicated results from each sample are all identical with no variation.

The app does have an adjustment for distance from source to compensate for the audio delay, which I have set to 5 feet, the distance I use the iPhone at. The app developer says to allow an error window of +/- 8ms.

Of course the iPhone app isn't the most ideal way to measure A/V synchronization, and has its limitations. Unfortunately better ways of measuring the synchronization are considerably more expensive, and I'm convinced this iPhone app is better than eyeballs and eardrums alone.
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post #16837 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 10:14 AM
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Hi!

why are OPPO not releasing an update on the Media control app it it so so broken after firmware update?!

//Mike
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post #16838 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 10:59 AM
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Hi!

why are OPPO not releasing an update on the Media control app it it so so broken after firmware update?!

//Mike

App updates require certification by the app gods, out of Oppo's control.
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post #16839 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 04:19 PM
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Is there anyway I can get an Oppo 103 to upscale my Standard Def DirecTv signal?

I currently have the following:
Onkyo NR-809
Sharp Aquaos Quattron 60" 3D TV
Standard Def DirecTv Cable Box that only has RCA outputs, it has no HDMI output and the Oppo doesn't accept RCA as an input?

How can I connect all the above devices so that I can use the Oppo to Upscale the SD content to HD content?

Thanks.
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post #16840 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 04:27 PM
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^ You can't. The OPPO only has Digital video input (HDMI). Your DirecTV box only has Analog video output (the RCA cables).

You would need to replace the DirecTV box with one that has HDMI output.
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post #16841 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 04:52 PM
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Therein lies the problem, to get a DirecTv box that had HDMI output I need to order HD service, I was hoping to use the Oppo to upscale my SD service to something closer to HD without having to pay for it.

I currently have my Cable box hooked up to my AVR with the RCA cables, then my AVR outputs everything connected to it to the TV using a HDMI cable (Though I dont thin I am upscaling anything doing it this way?), could I not take that AVR HDMI output and put that into the HDMI input of the Oppo, then use the HDMI output 1 on the Oppo and send that to the TV? Then connect a Optical Audio cable back to the AVR?

This all shows my high level of ignorance.

Thanks for the replies./
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post #16842 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 04:59 PM
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^ Sure, you can do that. Essentially you've come up with a more complicated way to make an HDMI output for your DirecTV box.

Don't expect miracles. Upscaling to HD resolution can't magically create content quality which was never in the original SD video to begin with.

On top of whatever quality limits are inherent in the SD stream DirecTV is sending to your DirecTV box, the Analog video output stage of your DirecTV box (what feeds those RCA cables) is most likely godawful. That can't be fixed by upscaling. The information (picture quality) is permanently lost.
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post #16843 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM300EXC View Post

Therein lies the problem, to get a DirecTv box that had HDMI output I need to order HD service, I was hoping to use the Oppo to upscale my SD service to something closer to HD without having to pay for it.

I currently have my Cable box hooked up to my AVR with the RCA cables, then my AVR outputs everything connected to it to the TV using a HDMI cable (Though I dont thin I am upscaling anything doing it this way?), could I not take that AVR HDMI output and put that into the HDMI input of the Oppo, then use the HDMI output 1 on the Oppo and send that to the TV? Then connect a Optical Audio cable back to the AVR?

This all shows my high level of ignorance.

Thanks for the replies./
Your TV is already upscaling the SD to your set's native resolution (I assume 1080X1920). Your TV has to upscale since it is a high definition TV with fixed pixel display and must upscale everything not in its native resolution that comes into the TV to whatever its native resolution is.

With an SD source (which may be iffy to begin with), I doubt an Oppo player would do significantly better. It may be time to bite the bullet and think about some sort of HD service, whether from satellite, cable, off-the-air, or streaming.

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post #16844 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 05:27 PM
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^How do you know his TV upscales all content?? My TVs don't do that unless I tell them to. Many are capable of displaying exactly what is fed to them.
I would also wonder what kind of AVR he is using. Perhaps his AVR could also be upscaling his throughput.

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post #16845 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 05:34 PM
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^How do you know his TV upscales all content?? My TVs don't do that unless I tell them to. Many are capable of displaying exactly what is fed to them.
I would also wonder what kind of AVR he is using. Perhaps his AVR could also be upscaling his throughput.
Unless SD content is displayed in a small window in the middle of the display with huge black borders on all 4 sides, something is scaling the image to the native resolution of the display.
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post #16846 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

^How do you know his TV upscales all content?? My TVs don't do that unless I tell them to. Many are capable of displaying exactly what is fed to them.
I would also wonder what kind of AVR he is using. Perhaps his AVR could also be upscaling his throughput.
What TVs do you have that display input resolutions without converting them to the TV's native resolution? If you are including computer monitors, they are not TVs. smile.gif

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post #16847 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Unless SD content is displayed in a small window in the middle of the display with huge black borders on all 4 sides, something is scaling the image to the native resolution of the display.
Yep, true.
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Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What TVs do you have that display input resolutions without converting them to the TV's native resolution? If you are including computer monitors, they are not TVs. smile.gif
There are TVs that do it. I think my Sony that is several years old does it, and even my mother-in-laws el-cheapo Walmart TV does it.
I had to fix it for her so the pic would fill the screen. Not just to stretch-fit, it was letterboxing on the SD content.

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post #16848 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 07:46 PM
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Digital displays (any fixed pixel panel or projector using a fixed pixel panel) have to scale. Otherwise your SD content turns into a postage stamp in the center of the screen.

Analog displays -- i.e., CRT based screens and projectors, can fill the screen without extrapolating extra pixels by basically magnifying the SD image -- i.e., splashing it across the same distance they use to show HD images. Instead of scaling (inventing intermediate pixels via extrapolation) you get "fatter SD pixels".
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post #16849 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post

Unless SD content is displayed in a small window in the middle of the display with huge black borders on all 4 sides, something is scaling the image to the native resolution of the display.
Yep, true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

What TVs do you have that display input resolutions without converting them to the TV's native resolution? If you are including computer monitors, they are not TVs. smile.gif
There are TVs that do it. I think my Sony that is several years old does it, and even my mother-in-laws el-cheapo Walmart TV does it.
I had to fix it for her so the pic would fill the screen. Not just to stretch-fit, it was letterboxing on the SD content.
I would not advise people with scaling questions using old analog devices as a benchmark. wink.gif

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post #16850 of 18347 Old 05-12-2014, 09:08 PM
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I would not advise people with scaling questions using old analog devices as a benchmark. wink.gif

Old analog devices? The TVs I was referring to are 1080p capable LCD panel TVs.

You guys can be right though. I don't mind. wink.gif
Maybe I am misinterpreting what I saw.

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post #16851 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 04:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Digital displays (any fixed pixel panel or projector using a fixed pixel panel) has to scale. Otherwise your SD content turns into a postage stamp in the center of the screen.

That having been said, in my experience my Oppo does a much better job of upscaling DVD resolution material to 1080 than my Sony Tv does. I think this is because the Sony just does a "geometric stretch" on each single frame to map input pixels to output pixels, whereas the Oppo does something more sophisticated that involves edge and contrast enhancement, and also does some interpolation of moving edges between frames. Anyway, IMHO it looks a lot better...
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post #16852 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 08:22 AM
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I have a Onkyo NR 809 AVR
I have a Aquos 60" Quattron 3D 240Hz TV

I do have the Mohu Sky Out Door HD Antennea and Powered Splitter on its way to see what type of over the air HD I can grab. I do live high upon a hill hopefully I'll get half of what the Website predicts I will get with this device.

Ugh.
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post #16853 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KTM300EXC View Post

I have a Onkyo NR 809 AVR
I have a Aquos 60" Quattron 3D 240Hz TV

I do have the Mohu Sky Out Door HD Antennea and Powered Splitter on its way to see what type of over the air HD I can grab. I do live high upon a hill hopefully I'll get half of what the Website predicts I will get with this device.

Ugh.
Did you post in the wrong thread? I don't see anything in the above that's relevant to the BDP-103...
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post #16854 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 08:37 AM
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NO, I didnt post in the wrong thread. A few replies back someone was asking what TV I had, to provide a better repsonse to my initial questions regarding the Oppo.
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post #16855 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 03:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KC-Technerd View Post

From what I've read, and it makes sense to me, humans don't perceive slightly delayed audio as being out of sync. Anything from audio being about 20ms ahead to 95ms behind the image is all perceived as being perfectly in sync. Unless we are standing very close to what we are observing, the sound is lagging behind the image. Because of the differences in the speed of light and the speed of sound, If we are witnessing some activity, such as a person speaking, from 40 feet away the sound is about 45ms behind the image. I don't know anyone who perceives this as being out of sync.

The difficulty this presents is being able to accurately synchronize audio and video using a A/V synchronization pattern with our eyes and ears alone. The benefit of it is that if we can contain all the audio to image variation to within that roughly 20ms early to 95ms late range, we won't perceive it as being out of sync. There is room for error and variation.

I second this. Even a person speaking to you from 10 feet away will be 11 ms out of sync due to the speed of sound. A car door being closed 20 feet away will be 22 ms out of sync. Our brains are wired to accommodate this and combine out of sync audio and visual signal - we have built in AV sync! But only to a point. Those who claim to be able to set sync to the exact 10ms boundary by eye must have real problems operating in normal everyday life wink.gif

In addition, our brains detect when sound comes ahead of the image much easier, because that is not normal to us and doesn't occur in real life.

My method for finding sync is to use a pattern (Spears and Munsil) and go with low delays until I can tell that it is out of sync. Then I find the point with audio delayed a high value where I can tell it is out of sync. I used to then go half way between this, but now I use 1/3 of the way after learning how much more sensitive the brain is to early sound than late sound.

I've also found that the longer I watch these patterns over and over in one sitting, the more difficult it becomes for me to tell what's in sync.
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post #16856 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 03:44 PM
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NO, I didnt post in the wrong thread. A few replies back someone was asking what TV I had, to provide a better repsonse to my initial questions regarding the Oppo.

Back to your initial question - the OPPO can't "directly" do the upscaling for you from a composite video source as there are no composite inputs. eek.gif There are, however, fairly inexpensive devices such as http://www.amazon.com/Etekcity%C2%AE-Composite-Converter-Upscaler-High-definition/dp/B00D68UXQE/ref=sr_1_2?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1400019805&sr=1-2&keywords=composite+to+hdmi+upscaler that can take composite to 720p or 1080p but I doubt it would do any better job of the upscaling than what your TV already provides. You could invest the $30 or so, use that to take it to 720p and let the OPPO do the rest. I am sure you can find more like that if you look around a bit.

On the other end of the spectrum there are devices like the Lumagen 2022, 2042, and the newest 2144 that WILL take your composite/component/s-video/stereo audio, upscale all the way to Ultra4K/60 (for the newest 2144) and output that over HDMI. This would likely do a much better job - they are expensive, but I would expect about the best upscaling job you might find considering the limitations of the 480i input they are getting from your DirecTV box. As I believe you said - you recognize garbage in/garbage out smile.gif I shudder to think what a 480i input scaled to 4K on a big TV/Projection screen might look like biggrin.gif Unless your future plans include some heavy duty calibration and such this would likely be way to much investment! The idea is there are many options in between.

i would think for a result you might be (more or less) happy with - you will need to consider biting the bullet and getting a HD provider for your programming. Have you looked at Netflix which is already supported by the OPPO in lieu of traditional cable/satellite services? That along with the OTA service you seem to be looking into might be more than enough - it all depends on your programming requirements.

Good Luck
Bill
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post #16857 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 04:05 PM
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I would not advise people with scaling questions using old analog devices as a benchmark. wink.gif

Old analog devices? The TVs I was referring to are 1080p capable LCD panel TVs.

You guys can be right though. I don't mind. wink.gif
Maybe I am misinterpreting what I saw.
Probably what you saw was the "digital" LCD upscaling to it's native resolution if the input was anything other than 1080p.

Calibration Resources:

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post #16858 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 05:38 PM
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I have an older Plasma in the bedroom (only 720p / 1080i capable for HD!) with a native resolution of 768 lines, so 480i, 480p, & 720p gets "upscaled" to 768 lines, 1080i gets "downscaled" to 768 lines. But I love it because it has 6 alarm clocks!

LOL
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post #16859 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 06:01 PM
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NO, I didnt post in the wrong thread. A few replies back someone was asking what TV I had, to provide a better repsonse to my initial questions regarding the Oppo.
Sorry - the context of your post got lost in the shuffle smile.gif. But as others have said, don't expect any miracles deinterlacing and scaling DirecTV SD content. The best of it can certainly be made to look decent on a 60" display, but the worst quality channels still aren't going to look great no matter what you use for deinterlacing and scaling. But none of it is going to hold a candle to having a true HD source. Depending on what programming you watch, you may find that installing an OTA antenna (as you appear to be pursuing) will be a very worthwhile investment. If you're into sports, you really owe it to yourself to get a HD feed for it as it makes a HUGE difference.
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post #16860 of 18347 Old 05-13-2014, 08:24 PM
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I believe that the Oppo can replace my media player, Sonos and current Blu Ray player but I'd like confirmation.

Right now I use XBMC to stream MKV with high res (TrueHD, DTS-MA) and other audio formats to a Lacie LacinemaHD (which doesn't do high res BD audio). It's very important to me that the media player handle subtitles in the MKV well. The Lacinema requires the subtitles to be in DVD format, which I'm fine with. Can the Oppo play subtitles in that format for a BD-quality MKV? Does the Oppo support chapter skipping in MKV?

XBMC also network-enables my music library. I get the impression that the Oppo can play just about anything directly but can it also convert everything to PCM so that my preprocessor can be the DAC?

I won't be using HDMI for anything other than video as my processor doesn't have that. (I'm trying to wait out all the HDMI changes cool.gif ).
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