Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 592 - AVS Forum
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post #17731 of 19020 Old 07-25-2014, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
Is it known that the Oppo is clipping the image above 90IRE when the contrast setting is set at its default value of 0 ?
The person who did my ISF calibration on my Panasonic P50GT60 Plasma is saying this.
To not have it clip the image the contrast setting on the Oppo should be set @ -2, according to him.

Any truth to that ?
Extremely unlikely. A large number of 103 owners have OCD for things like that including me. NO ONE in the history of this thread has reported anything like that. Standard practice for calibration is to adjust the contrast on the display using something like the clipping pattern on the Spears & Munsil test disc's as well as setting black level (brightness) on the display before starting the calibration. If using the Oppo to play back test patterns you would never make the adjustment in the Oppo. If you did the calibration results would be wrong for other sources i.e. STB. Has the calibrator ever done a calibration before? Is he from Best Buy?
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post #17732 of 19020 Old 07-25-2014, 03:14 PM
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Yeah he has done it for years, not from Best Buy. He is from The Netherlands.

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post #17733 of 19020 Old 07-25-2014, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
Is it known that the Oppo is clipping the image above 90IRE when the contrast setting is set at its default value of 0 ?
The person who did my ISF calibration on my Panasonic P50GT60 Plasma is saying this.
To not have it clip the image the contrast setting on the Oppo should be set @ -2, according to him.

Any truth to that ?
In the US, the standard method used by professional calibrators is to leave OPPO players in a default state and calibrate the display. If your calibrator has already done the work and you're happy with it, I would say leave it alone.
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post #17734 of 19020 Old 07-25-2014, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
Yeah he has done it for years, not from Best Buy. He is from The Netherlands.
Its possible you misunderstood, and what was really happening was that your display was clipping if the player was set to "0". Not knowing the specifics of the display or how it was set up makes it impossible to say. In any case, no the player does not clip whites. In fact it outputs WTW if its present in the content.
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post #17735 of 19020 Old 07-25-2014, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
Is it known that the Oppo is clipping the image above 90IRE when the contrast setting is set at its default value of 0 ?
The person who did my ISF calibration on my Panasonic P50GT60 Plasma is saying this.
To not have it clip the image the contrast setting on the Oppo should be set @ -2, according to him.

Any truth to that ?
The OPPO 103 does not clip Peak Whites -- unless of course you are using RGB PC Level as your output format, which does clip those by definition.

Either your calibrator got confused or there is a problem in your Display.
--Bob

Last edited by Bob Pariseau; 07-25-2014 at 04:45 PM.
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post #17736 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
The OPPO 103 does not clip Peak Whites -- unless of course you are using RGB PC Level as your output format, which does clip those by definition.

Either your calibrator got confused or there is a problem in your Display.
--Bob
I told him your reaction. His reaction is :

"Afaik (measured on different Panasonic TV's in the 50/60 series) the Oppo is clipping the CMS if contrast is set to 0. If set to -1 or -2 it is not clipping anymore.
The differences are minimal though."

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post #17737 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
I told him your reaction. His reaction is :

"Afaik (measured on different Panasonic TV's in the 50/60 series) the Oppo is clipping the CMS if contrast is set to 0. If set to -1 or -2 it is not clipping anymore.
The differences are minimal though."
Hmmm....

I'd be interested to know what this guy has to report about other makes/models of Blu-ray player connected to a Panasonic P50GT60?

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post #17738 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
I told him your reaction. His reaction is :

"Afaik (measured on different Panasonic TV's in the 50/60 series) the Oppo is clipping the CMS if contrast is set to 0. If set to -1 or -2 it is not clipping anymore.
The differences are minimal though."
I guarantee you it is not clipping when the OPPO Picture Adjustment settings are all set at their factory default (0) values.

The Dynamic Range High chart on Spears & Munsil shows separate, blinking bars for each individual Luma value from just below Reference White, through Reference White, and through the entire range of Peak Whites if the Display is able to reproduce those. On the 103, they are *ALL* distinguishable from the maximum Luma value (the bright white background of the chart) on a Display that can reproduce those, regardless of whether you are using YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, or RGB Video Level output format.

The output is identical to that of other players known to properly pass Peak Whites -- e.g., the PS3 when set to YCbCr 4:4:4 with SuperWhite enabled.

In addition, OPPO has digital HDMI data captures of the output stream (part of their engineering bench testing) which show the high Luma values all being passed correctly -- a test which is, of course, independent of what any given AVR or Display might do with that output.
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post #17739 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 08:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
I guarantee you it is not clipping when the OPPO Picture Adjustment settings are all set at their factory default (0) values.

The Dynamic Range High chart on Spears & Munsil shows separate, blinking bars for each individual Luma value from just below Reference White, through Reference White, and through the entire range of Peak Whites if the Display is able to reproduce those. On the 103, they are *ALL* distinguishable from the maximum Luma value (the bright white background of the chart) on a Display that can reproduce those, regardless of whether you are using YCbCr 4:4:4, YCbCr 4:2:2, or RGB Video Level output format.

The output is identical to that of other players known to properly pass Peak Whites -- e.g., the PS3 when set to YCbCr 4:4:4 with SuperWhite enabled.

In addition, OPPO has digital HDMI data captures of the output stream (part of their engineering bench testing) which show the high Luma values all being passed correctly -- a test which is, thus, independent of what any AVR or Display might do with that output.
--Bob
He also mentioned the White was not clipping but the CMS was/is above IRE90.
So lowering the contrast value on the Oppo was not to prevent the Oppo from clipping the White (because the Oppo is not doing that) but to prevent the Oppo from clipping the CMS above the IRE90 range.

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post #17740 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 08:26 AM
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^ Again, the HDMI digital data captures OPPO has done show this not to be the case. They run files with specific pixel values (Luma and the 2 Color Differences) through the player and capture the digital output stream (no AVR or Display involved) to make sure those values are not being altered (clipped). This is part of the Q/A of Dithering, for example, which imposes small, random differences by design, so you need to check that the differences are of the intended size and only occurring when they are supposed to be occurring.

It's always possible that a bug has crept in of course since the last time they checked that, but rendering bugs are usually not that subtle.
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post #17741 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 07:23 PM
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4.4.4 or 4.2.2? ...From both HDMI outs with a flat panel HDTV.
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post #17742 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 07:55 PM
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4.4.4 or 4.2.2? ...From both HDMI outs with a flat panel HDTV.
Choosing a Colorspace
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post #17743 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 09:12 PM
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4.4.4 - That'll do it, thx.
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post #17744 of 19020 Old 07-26-2014, 11:41 PM
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My apparent HDMI handshake (with loss of audio on HDMI 2 and video resolution/format difficulties) issue has now become apparently uncorrectable. Reseating HDMI plugs no longer corrects the issue. I completely removed and re-inserted every HDMI plug on every device. I also end swapped the cable from HDMI 2 to my receiver, as well as attempting to use a different HDMI input on the receiver. I also looked at both ends of the HDMI cables and the HDMI receptacles on the Oppo, and the AVR, and cannot see that there are any bent pins, or any visible damage. The HDMI cables being used are the ones provided by Oppo.

This issue began soon after the installation of the current firmware and has become more and more consistent and resistant to correction since. Is anyone else using a split A/V setup with a Pioneer Elite SC-77 (or other similar Pioneer AVR)?
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post #17745 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 03:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
4.4.4 or 4.2.2? ...From both HDMI outs with a flat panel HDTV.
I suggest you read this most recent post by Bob Pariseau before jumping into anything!

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post #17746 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 04:29 PM
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My apparent HDMI handshake (with loss of audio on HDMI 2 and video resolution/format difficulties) issue has now become apparently uncorrectable. Reseating HDMI plugs no longer corrects the issue. I completely removed and re-inserted every HDMI plug on every device. I also end swapped the cable from HDMI 2 to my receiver, as well as attempting to use a different HDMI input on the receiver. I also looked at both ends of the HDMI cables and the HDMI receptacles on the Oppo, and the AVR, and cannot see that there are any bent pins, or any visible damage. The HDMI cables being used are the ones provided by Oppo.

This issue began soon after the installation of the current firmware and has become more and more consistent and resistant to correction since. Is anyone else using a split A/V setup with a Pioneer Elite SC-77 (or other similar Pioneer AVR)?
After further experimentation and process of elimination, this appears to be an HDMI cable failure. After 2 months it is finally continuous and is duplicatable wherever the cable is moved to. I'm liking HDMI less and less.
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post #17747 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Daffietje View Post
He also mentioned the White was not clipping but the CMS was/is above IRE90.
So lowering the contrast value on the Oppo was not to prevent the Oppo from clipping the White (because the Oppo is not doing that) but to prevent the Oppo from clipping the CMS above the IRE90 range.
I just checked this again in my setup with my test 103, and I don't see any such clipping.

Tested with Spears & Munsil v2, Blu-ray > Advanced Video > Setup. In this section of this calibration disc there are 6 charts that display the high Luma end of the video data. These are Contrast Y (i.e., Luma), Contrast Cb, Contrast Cr, Contrast Red, Contrast Green, and Contrast Blue.

All 6 display the given data channel as individual, labeled bars for Luma 231 through 253 against a background of Luma 254. There's also a double ramp used to check for quantization (rounding) errors.

(For newbies: Reference White has a Luma value of 235, and of course no color. The Luma values from 236 to 254 are the Peak White values. 255 is a reserved value. The pixel data on disc is in YCbCr format where the Y component is the Luma or gray scale brightness of the pixel, and the Cb and Cr components are the Blue and Red "color difference" values describing how much blue/red to add or subtract to that gray scale brightness to color the pixel. E.g., take all the Blue and Red out of a white pixel and you end up with a Green pixel. YCbCr format can be converted to RGB format -- Red, Green, and Blue component values for each pixel. A gray pixel anywhere in the range from Black to White would then be a pixel that has equal values for R, G, and B.)

In all 6 charts, I can see the data bars up to 253, which is correct. Of course the bars near 253 are tougher to see as they are closer to blending into the Luma 254 background. Check this in a darkened room with eyes adapted. So: No clipping in either whites or colors.

The 103 is running the Official 0515 firmware. I'm using HDMI 1, set to output 1080p/24 using YCbCr 4:4:4 and Deep Color OFF (Dithered). The Dithering in the player is needed for the way I use my Display.

NOTE: All this really proves is that the individual values up there really are present on the HDMI cable -- i.e., the OPPO is not clipping, say, values above 245 to 245. The Gamma of these high Luma values may or may not be correct. But that's a Display calibration issue, not an issue with the output of the OPPO.

------------------------------------------

Now, it is not at all unusual for *A DISPLAY* to clip one or more color channels at high Luma. For example, the Display might be able to show Blue distinguishable up to only Luma 245, even though Red and Green don't clip. One symptom of this is that high Luma value White bars start to develop a color tinge because, in this example, the Blue is only going up so high.

The way to check if THIS is the problem is to reduce white levels (i.e., using the Contrast control) in the Display (*NOT* in the OPPO). The higher Luma value bars should start to become visible -- which also demonstrates that the player itself is not doing the clipping, because those bars are there, on the HDMI Cable, to view if only the Display could handle them.

In such displays, there's a trade off that has to be made for the Display's own Contrast setting. Lowering the Display's Contrast setting lowers dynamic range (i.e., maximum image brightness). As long as there is no Clipping up to Reference White in any color channel you can live with that. If there is clipping (in the Display) above Reference White, you can lower the Display's Contrast setting to reduce that, but only so far as still leaves you with a pleasing appearance for Reference White -- i.e., not gray or dingy. This can be quantified in terms of recommended light level for Reference White (for your type of Display) if you use an optical sensor.
--Bob

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post #17748 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 04:39 PM
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After further experimentation and process of elimination, this appears to be an HDMI cable failure. After 2 months it is finally continuous and is duplicatable wherever the cable is moved to. I'm liking HDMI less and less.
Having an HDMI cable fail on you is a right of passage. HDMI.ORG would probably describe it as a character builder.

Most likely the failure is internal to the cable -- a conductor break inside the insulation or a failed solder joint. However, do check for bent pins. Get a flashlight and check the plug ends and also the sockets. The reason is that a damaged plug can also damage the sockets it is plugged into.

Once you have replaced the cable and confirmed things really are fixed, don't forget to destroy the bad cable. You'd be amazed how common it is for people to mistakenly re-use cables they've previously proven are bad....
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post #17749 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 04:48 PM
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In all 6 charts, I can see the data bars up to 253, which is correct. Of course the bars near 253 are tougher to see as they are closer to blending into the Luma 254 background. Check this in a darkened room with eyes adapted. So: No clipping in either whites or colors.
I tested mine using the same material last night. Also no clipping on Y, Cb, Cr, R, G, or B. YCbCr 4:4:4 with Deep Color set to 36 Bits. I use the 36 Bit setting to take advantage of the Bit Resolution Expansion (QDEO True Color Processing) feature of the Marvel QDEO Video processing on HDMI 1. I am easily able to detect the removal of banding on a full screen grayscale ramp as my display is capable of displaying greater than 24 bit video. I cannot however tell any difference between the 30 Bits and 36 Bits setting. Dithering apparently defeats the effects of this processing as both the dithered settings result in the ramps appearing identical to the 24 Bits setting, leaving the banding quite perceptible.
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post #17750 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 04:57 PM
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Having an HDMI cable fail on you is a right of passage. HDMI.ORG would probably describe it as a character builder.

Most likely the failure is internal to the cable -- a conductor break inside the insulation or a failed solder joint. However, do check for bent pins. Get a flashlight and check the plug ends and also the sockets. The reason is that a damaged plug can also damage the sockets it is plugged into.

Once you have replaced the cable and confirmed things really are fixed, don't forget to destroy the bad cable. You'd be amazed how common it is for people to mistakenly re-use cables they've previously proven are bad....
--Bob
A simple failure wouldn't be so bad. 2 months of chasing a poltergeist is a PITA. Now it has finally reached the stage of being repeatable and duplicatable. I'm not sure how I'd ever be able to diagnose the real problem when some other action would apparently correct the issue. I have checked for bent pins. None to be found. I also end swapped the cable with no change in behavior as well as moving the cable to the other HDMI output on the Oppo, and a different HDMI input on the AVR, and the handshaking issue followed it. To eliminate the possibility that an HDMI handshaking issue had somehow otherwise developed between the 103 and my AVR, I used another HDMI cable between them, and it is working normally (so far).

I've contacted Oppo to see if the cable may be covered either under its own warranty, or under the 103's.
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post #17751 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 05:02 PM
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^ If it's the cable that came with the player, then sure, it is covered by the player's warranty.
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post #17752 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 05:16 PM
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^ The failed cable is a 3 foot that I ordered from Oppo about 3 months after I ordered the 103 from them, so its not the one that came with the 103. The 6 foot cable that came with the 103 was being used directly from the 103 to the video display, but is now connected to the AVR temporarily (using the 103's HDMI 1 only) until the failed cable is replaced.
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post #17753 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 05:17 PM
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I suggest you read this most recent post by Bob Pariseau before jumping into anything!
Thank you kindly sir. ...And like I said before:
- Color Space: 4.4.4 ... HDMI to HDMI (HDMI1 and HDMI2)
- Deep Color: Off (HDMI1 and HDMI2)

* I see nothing, I hear nothing, I change nothing. ...Everything appears real clean to me both eyes.
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post #17754 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 06:22 PM
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Thank you kindly sir. ...And like I said before:
- Color Space: 4.4.4 ... HDMI to HDMI (HDMI1 and HDMI2)
- Deep Color: Off (HDMI1 and HDMI2)

* I see nothing, I hear nothing, I change nothing. ...Everything appears real clean to me both eyes.
If you only use HDMI2 for audio (like me) you could also leave Color Space to "Auto".


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The Dithering in the player is needed for the way I use my Display.
--Bob
Just out of interest : why do you use Dithering?

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post #17755 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 06:35 PM
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. . . .
Just out of interest : why do you use Dithering?
All digital Displays need to dither at some point before the pixels light up to eliminate quantization artifacts. For most folks, that happens by default in their Display and they don't need to OPPO to do it. In my case, my display thinks it is being fed by a computer, and, as a side effect, apparently bypasses its own, internal dithering (i.e., it thinks dithering's already been done by the graphics device feeding it). So dithering in the OPPO is the bees knees.

For some displays, disabling their video "enhancement" processing -- almost always a good idea -- may also mean they don't dither. Again, dithering in the OPPO then becomes just the ticket.
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post #17756 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 06:41 PM
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All digital Displays need to dither at some point before the pixels light up to eliminate quantization artifacts. For most folks, that happens by default in their Display and they don't need to OPPO to do it. In my case, my display thinks it is being fed by a computer, and, as a side effect, apparently bypasses its own, internal dithering (i.e., it thinks dithering's already been done by the graphics device feeding it). So dithering in the OPPO is the bees knees.

For some displays, disabling their video "enhancement" processing -- almost always a good idea -- may also mean they don't dither. Again, dithering in the OPPO then becomes just the ticket.
--Bob
I also have video enhancement processing OFF on the display.
How do I know or can I check if my display applies dither?

Panasonic TX-P50GT60 / Marantz SR5004 / 4 x KEF HTS 3001 SE (front + rear) + HTC 3001 SE (centre) + REL T-9 sub / Oppo BDP-103EU (MultiRegion+MultiZone)
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post #17757 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 06:46 PM
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I also have video enhancement processing OFF on the display.
How do I know or can I check if my display applies dither?
I've found that Ratatouille Chapter 10 scene I've talked bout many times now is good for testing this as well. If you need to apply dithering then the Color Space choices without dithering will show more of the structure in that night sky through lit fog frame. It's pretty obvious when Dithered is better in that case. If adding dithering does NOT improve that image then leave it off, as you don't want to be doing dithering twice.
--Bob

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post #17758 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 07:29 PM
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If you only use HDMI2 for audio (like me) you could also leave Color Space to "Auto".
Yes, HDMI2 only for Audio (SACD, DVD-Audio, CD, hi-res audio files, sometimes DVD -> once a year, atmos).

Auto or 4.4.4 (HDMI2) - both selections are fine; thx.
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post #17759 of 19020 Old 07-27-2014, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
I've found that Ratatouille Chapter 10 scene I've talked bout many times now is good for testing this as well. If you need to apply dithering then the Color Space choices without dithering will show more of the structure in that night sky through lit fog frame. It's pretty obvious when Dithered is better in that case. If adding dithering does NOT improve that image then leave it off, as you don't want to be doing dithering twice.
--Bob
So the dithering "function button" in the Oppo 103 is the Deep Color (Off) selection?

Deep Color: Off (Dithered) ... Yep it is.

______________

* In my Rotel RCD-991 CD player there is a "Dither" function button on the front panel.
I can add various 'dither' levels to my music; depending of what's playing, and what sounds best to my ears.

{Every digital music player should have that, I think. ...Plus an asynchronous function too, like in the Oppo 105, for digital jitter reduction/elimination from its dedicated USB port.}

Next; Dolby Atmos from the Oppo 113 and 115 (up to 4 overhead "beds"). ...Sleep bedder @ night.
- Phase reverse switch? ...Why not, in them next Oppo players (2016).
...And a "Dithe"r adjustable level button selection (on the remote), for music listening. ...Tell Oppo that Bob.

Last edited by NorthSky; 07-27-2014 at 08:00 PM. Reason: Added up (suggestions for a better world) - Happiness in Audition & Visual.
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post #17760 of 19020 Old 07-28-2014, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
I've found that Ratatouille Chapter 10 scene I've talked bout many times now is good for testing this as well. If you need to apply dithering then the Color Space choices without dithering will show more of the structure in that night sky through lit fog frame. It's pretty obvious when Dithered is better in that case. If adding dithering does NOT improve that image then leave it off, as you don't want to be doing dithering twice.
--Bob
Shame I dont have that movie
Is there also something on Spears & Munsil II which is an indicator for dither?

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