Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 61 - AVS Forum
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post #1801 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 10:29 AM
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The reported lip sync issues are disconcerting as I wait for my 103 to show up. Are fixes via firmware fully expected or could there be hardware involved? My guess is FW but??

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #1802 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 10:31 AM
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I used to have a Denon AV receiver always had problems, sold it and switched to Yamaha no problems smile.gif
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post #1803 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

The reported lip sync issues are disconcerting as I wait for my 103 to show up. Are fixes via firmware fully expected or could there be hardware involved? My guess is FW but??

Problems of early adopters, I know the felling
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post #1804 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

The reported lip sync issues are disconcerting as I wait for my 103 to show up. Are fixes via firmware fully expected or could there be hardware involved? My guess is FW but??

Been using the 103 since the first pre-production testing, never once saw any synch issues. (Bitstreaming to a Yamaha AVR). Issues like this must first be demonstrated in Oppo's lab, then fixes are usually pretty quick in coming. It's not a hardware issue. Every setup has a dizzying array of possible settings and processing which can and do cause synch issues, the player is just one part of the big picture.
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post #1805 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

The reported lip sync issues are disconcerting as I wait for my 103 to show up. Are fixes via firmware fully expected or could there be hardware involved? My guess is FW but??

It will undoubtedly get fixed in firmware. The test matrix on this is daunting (the number of combos of source, content format, output, and settings), and evidently a few combos have slipped through. There were similar teething pains when the 93 first shipped. OPPO is on the case.
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post #1806 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Borvio View Post

Unless you have a defective cable, or have interference that's interrupting the signal - I don't see how one HDMI cable could be that much better than another. Either the 1s and 0s go through or not.

To add to this, there is a simple test anyone can do to see if their cable is adequate for their Oppo to their system, etc. Because DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD are lossless, compressed formats. On top of that, the audio stream is HDCP encrypted when sent out by the Oppo. If even one bit is screwed up during transmission, the encryption and the compression will cause a huge error in the audio signal, and likely you'll get an audio dropout.

So you can test it like this: Set the Oppo to bitstream, and play a Blu-ray with a DTS-MA audio track. If your audio sounds fine, you know the cable works with your Oppo to deliver bit-for-bit perfect transmission.

But the summary is this: HDCP encrypts the video too. If something changes during the transmission, the decryption is not going to work. Therefore, all HDMI cables that work are guaranteed to be delivering the same exact digital data to the display which does the decryption after receiving it.
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post #1807 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:24 PM
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One potential cause for the sound to be different with different cables is that furniture got rearranged while running cables and didn't get put back.

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post #1808 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:31 PM
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The two posts above stating that Yamaha AVR's are having no lip-synch issues make me feel better as I have a Yamaha AVR. Picking my 103 up tomorrow, can't wait.
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post #1809 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

It will undoubtedly get fixed in firmware. The test matrix on this is daunting (the number of combos of source, content format, output, and settings), and evidently a few combos have slipped through. There were similar teething pains when the 93 first shipped. OPPO is on the case.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Been using the 103 since the first pre-production testing, never once saw any synch issues. (Bitstreaming to a Yamaha AVR). Issues like this must first be demonstrated in Oppo's lab, then fixes are usually pretty quick in coming. It's not a hardware issue. Every setup has a dizzying array of possible settings and processing which can and do cause synch issues, the player is just one part of the big picture.

Thanks! I was torn enough about 103 vs 95 for the possible use of stereo analog without adding lip sync to the internal debate.

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Ayre K-5xeMP, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650.
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post #1810 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:54 PM
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Can't lip sync issues be temporarily dealt with using the correction feature for this that's built into most receivers, until OPPO has a FW fix for it?
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post #1811 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hernanu View Post

I don't think the 105 will give you any benefit for straight sound, since your receiver doesn't have analog multi channel inputs. If you want some of the other features (headphone amp, optical inputs) that the 105 provides but the 103 doesn't, then that may be worth your while.
As far as sound, since you're talking HDMI sound, the 93 or 103 is your choice, I would think the reason to upgrade would be features, since the sound quality, while probably better may not blow away your 93. The features here are prompting me to upgrade, but for me it's easier since I'm upgrading from an 83. The ability to source other components through the 103 for video and sound, etc... all sound like what I want.
Soundwise though, I think your best bet is to audition one, compare it to your 93 and see if it's worth the upgrade.

Thanks. This helped plug up some holes in my knowledge. That leaves me with the following choice. Go down that slippery slope of higher costs for little added benefit, or be satisfied with a much smaller upgrade to the 103. I choose the less costly 103 upgrade instead.
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post #1812 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 01:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CatBrat View Post

Can't lip sync issues be temporarily dealt with using the correction feature for this that's built into most receivers, until OPPO has a FW fix for it?

This depends on the receiver. Some receivers have a global Audio Delay, so any alteration of the delay would cause other sources to now be out of sync. If the receiver has Audio Delay capabilities which are source dependent, then you can add a delay just to the player's input to a generic level which works best for all sources. Bob uses something like 150ms in his configuration, where I have found as little as 35ms to as much as 90ms has been required in some instances in my configuration (on a whole, I use 0ms delay).
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post #1813 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 01:54 PM
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^ OK, since we are talking about workarounds now, I guess I'll need to lay out my current findings.

First of all, I'm using a Beta sample 105 at the moment, so it is not absolutely certain that what I'm seeing actually applies to the 103. I suspect it does, but I can't confirm that.

Second, I'm on newer, Beta firmware than you folks with 103s. So I'm going to try to recall my set of results that match the 1018 firmware currently on the 103. The answers for the Beta firmware I'm using are DIFFERENT. I.e., firmware changes are in process to address this stuff. (I can't talk about Beta firmware beyond that.)

Third, some of the errors we are seeing now appeared late in the Beta test cycle. That's unfortunate of course, but it is what gives me complete confidence OPPO can fix this stuff in firmware. I.e., it used to work!



So here goes:

I have only HDMI 1 cabled. Folks who are using both HDMI outputs will likely see different results. This is one of those matrix of testing items I alluded to above.

I use a variety of calibration discs to check this stuff. It is vitally important that you use test content of known quality regarding sync. Real movies *OFTEN* have inherent sync errors that may even date back to their theatrical release (i.e., it was that way in movie theaters, too!). Such inherent errors typically change scene by scene. There are lots of ways for such errors to creep into movies, and as many reasons why the errors were never corrected. How it happens is not as important as recognizing that it DOES happen.

One of the best, readily available, tests right now is on the Disney "WOW World of Wonder" calibration discs, which are available in both SD-DVD and Blu-ray. I use both of those and other test charts as well.

For the 1018 firmware:

Shiny disc playback (either SD-DVD or Blu-ray):

1) HDMI 1 video lags HDMI 1 audio by 150 ms. You need to add 150ms audio delay external to the player.

2) HDMI 1 video lags multi-channel Analog audio by 75ms. You need to add 75 ms audio delay external to the player.


Netflix streaming (native app):

1) Audio / Video sync is *CORRECT* for HDMI 1 video vs. either HDMI 1 audio or multi-channel Analog audio. This is based on using Netflix' test streams of known quality.


HDMI Inputs:

1) HDMI 1 video is AHEAD of both HDMI 1 audio and multi-channel Analog audio by 150ms. Since video is already ahead of audio, adding audio delay will just make matters worse. Since there is no way to speed up the audio or delay the video external to the player, there is no workaround. We'll just have to await a firmware fix.


NOTE 1: At one point, the answers above were different depending on whether the player was set to 1080p/60 or 1080p/24 output, specifically for the multi-channel Analog results. I'm sorry, but I can't recall whether that was true for the 1018 firmware. There's that matrix of test combos again....

NOTE 2: I don't test media file streaming, so I do not know if there's a different result for that. My expectation would be that audio / video sync for media files would match the Shiny Disc results.

NOTE 3: As should be obvious from Neuromancer's post above, different Beta testers are seeing different results on this. My assumption is that this is simply due to variations in configuration (e.g., 2 HDMI cables instead of 1, etc.) But that's yet to be confirmed.
--Bob
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post #1814 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 03:02 PM
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>>> It's based on fact, not theory...


Uh, theory is fact. In spite of repeated misuse of "theory". Hypothesis is an educated but unproven "guess" at the how something works. Theory is tested and proven to be true... fact. "Theory of Operation" of some complex equipment, for example, is not speculation. It is the factual description of how the device operates. Pythagoras' Theory (or Theorum if you prefer) is geometric "truth" not a guess or possible explanation.

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post #1815 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobearQSI View Post


But the summary is this: HDCP encrypts the video too. If something changes during the transmission, the decryption is not going to work. Therefore, all HDMI cables that work are guaranteed to be delivering the same exact digital data to the display which does the decryption after receiving it.

HDCP does not encrypt video data. HDCP is code passed during the handshake transaction before video is transmitted. If both devices complete the HDCP portion of the handshake, you get video. If either of the devices fails to complete the HDCP portion of the handshake, you don't get video. For video to be stopped, some new non-HDCP compliant device would have to be inserted in the signal path... disconnecting the HDMI cable will require a new handshake before the stream will re-start. If the new non-compliant device is not in the path, you won't get video.

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post #1816 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ OK, since we are talking about workarounds now, I guess I'll need to lay out my current findings.
First of all, I'm using a Beta sample 105 at the moment, so it is not absolutely certain that what I'm seeing actually applies to the 103. I suspect it does, but I can't confirm that.
Second, I'm on newer, Beta firmware than you folks with 103s. So I'm going to try to recall my set of results that match the 1018 firmware currently on the 103. The answers for the Beta firmware I'm using are DIFFERENT. I.e., firmware changes are in process to address this stuff. (I can't talk about Beta firmware beyond that.)
Third, some of the errors we are seeing now appeared late in the Beta test cycle. That's unfortunate of course, but it is what gives me complete confidence OPPO can fix this stuff in firmware. I.e., it used to work!
1) HDMI 1 video lags HDMI 1 audio by 150 ms. You need to add 150ms audio delay external to the player.
.
--Bob

The video lags behind HDMI1 audio on mine. The Denon 4810 only allows up to 100ms adjustment. I used 90ms as advised by Oppo. It fixes most lip syncs on my BDs but not all. For these I extended to 100ms and there is still a problem although less than without the adjustment. Will have to wait for the firmware fix.
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post #1817 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn View Post

HDCP does not encrypt video data.
It most certainly does. The entire purpose of HDCP is so that video and audio data is never sent 'in the clear' so that a device eavesdropping could easily record the video. The handshake is to exchange keys between devices so that the encryption can occur in real-time, with the keys used to encode each frame changing on a frame-by-frame basis.

Here's the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection
And here's the actual specification itself: http://www.digital-cp.com/files/static_page_files/8006F925-129D-4C12-C87899B5A76EF5C3/HDCP_Specification%20Rev1_3.pdf

Key parts (emphasis mine):
Quote:
Encryption of the data sent over DisplayPort, DVI, HDMI, GVIF, or UDI interfaces prevents eavesdropping of information and man-in-the-middle attacks
Quote:
Encryption is done by a stream cipher. Each decoded pixel is encrypted by applying an XOR operation with a 24-bit number produced by a generator. The HDCP specifications ensure constant updating of keys after each encoded frame.
And straight from the spec:
Quote:
both HDCP Devices to generate a shared secret value that cannot be determined by eavesdroppers ... the shared secret can then be used as a symmetric key to encrypt HDCP Content intended only for the Authorized Device. ... occurs during the vertical blanking interval preceding each frame for which encryption is enabled, and provides an initialization state for the HDCP Cipher for encrypting the HDCP Content within that frame
And the most obvious undeniable statement from the spec that video data is encrypted:
Quote:
HDCP Encryption is applied at the input to the T.M.D.S. Encoder and decryption is applied at the output of the T.M.D.S. Decoder
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post #1818 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danieljoseph View Post

The video lags behind HDMI1 audio on mine. The Denon 4810 only allows up to 100ms adjustment. I used 90ms as advised by Oppo. It fixes most lip syncs on my BDs but not all. For these I extended to 100ms and there is still a problem although less than without the adjustment. Will have to wait for the firmware fix.

Yes that would be consistent with what I saw with the 1018 firmware. By putting in 90-100ms of audio delay in your receiver you are fixing most of the problem which will make it more difficult to spot the remaining error in real content. Generally speaking your brain will pretty much ignore up to about 50ms of error unless you are really focussed on looking for it. The calibration charts make it easier to spot the residual error.
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post #1819 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 04:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Yes that would be consistent with what I saw with the 1018 firmware. By putting in 90-100ms of audio delay in your receiver you are fixing most of the problem which will make it more difficult to spot the remaining error in real content. Generally speaking your brain will pretty much ignore up to about 50ms of error unless you are really focussed on looking for it. The calibration charts make it easier to spot the residual error.
--Bob

Thanks Bob. The firmware I hope will fix the whole problem without me having to enter an audio delay in my receiver.
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post #1820 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 04:09 PM
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^ Sure! That's the goal. The design intent is that the sync is correct at the player's outputs for all combos of settings/cabling -- assuming the sync was correct to begin with in whatever content you are playing.

As I said above, some errors got out in the early firmware for the 93/95 as well. OPPO is on the case.
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post #1821 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 04:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

First of all, I'm using a Beta sample 105 at the moment, Bob

Bob,

Cool how does it sound did you compare it to the BDP-95?
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post #1822 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 04:21 PM
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^ It sounds Great! But I never used a 95, so I can't offer a comparison. (I used a 93 in OPPO's last round.)
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post #1823 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post


Have you compared the BD-95 with the 105 for sound and does the 105 sound better than the 95?
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post #1824 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 05:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I personally can't really tell a difference, but I am using a very modest sound system so I was not expecting any difference in audio performance.
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post #1825 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 05:58 PM
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^^ In my listening so far, the differences are pretty subtle between the 95 and 105. But in the end I generally prefer the results with Audyssey XT32 engaged as my room really benefits from it, so I generally use HDMI for audio except for when I'm testing analog audio or just want a change of pace.

If I were in the situation of owning a 95 and considering upgrading to a 105, the new features would be the reason to upgrade, not the difference in sound.
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post #1826 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gsr View Post

^^ In my listening so far, the differences are pretty subtle between the 95 and 105. But in the end I generally prefer the results with Audyssey XT32 engaged as my room really benefits from it, so I generally use HDMI for audio except for when I'm testing analog audio or just want a change of pace. If I were in the situation of owning a 95 and considering upgrading to a 105, the new features would be the reason to upgrade, not the difference in sound.

New features 4K and DAC! not worth it for me then frown.gif
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post #1827 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 06:26 PM
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New features 4K and DAC! not worth it for me then frown.gif
There are other new features, such as SMB support, HDMI inputs, and DLNA DMR (among others) to also consider.
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post #1828 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 07:03 PM
 
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I know this was mentioned many pages ago, but does anyone remember how to get past the login nag screen that keeps me from accessing my added SMB folder shares? The default folders are fine. I will try a reboot if no one recalls the trick.

EDIT: Nevermind, creating an account made for an easy enough workaround. Now I'm in.
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post #1829 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 08:08 PM
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Hi, 103 owners, has anyone tried to connect 103 with computer directly with ethernet cable without hub or router? Is it possible? Such that 103 can access the shared folder in computer using just one rj45 cable. No router involved. Thanks.smile.gif
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post #1830 of 19379 Old 11-06-2012, 09:23 PM
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Hi, 103 owners, has anyone tried to connect 103 with computer directly with ethernet cable without hub or router? Is it possible? Such that 103 can access the shared folder in computer using just one rj45 cable. No router involved. Thanks.smile.gif
I haven't tried it, but it would most likely work. You would need to use static IP addresses on both the PC and the 103 and would most likely need to use a network crossover cable (you could also hook them both up to a network switch and not need to use a crossover cable). The big question is why would you want to do that?
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Oppo Bdp 103 3d Blu Ray Player , Oppo Bdp 105 Blu Ray Player , Oppo Bdp 93 Blu Ray Player , Oppo Digital Inc

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