Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 703 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21061 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by pbarach View Post
Subwoofer output for SACDs reduced by 10 dB when sending DSD

Other than sending SACD signals only as PCM to the AVR or upping the subwoofer trim by 10 dB in the AVR, is there any other workaround for the fact that the subwoofer channel is 10 dB too low when SACD output goes to the AVR as a DSD signal?
If you are talking about HDMI DSD output, the OPPO does nothing to the Sub channel level for that. It is treated like a Bitstream. No settings in the OPPO will alter that. I.e., it is an AVR issue for how that HDMI DSD input is being handled by the AVR.

One way to double-check just how the signal is being handled is with tracks 43-48 of the 5.1 layer of, "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD. (Do *NOT* use the Sub channel ID track, which looks identical but isn't, found earlier on that disc.)

Be aware that there is no consistency in how the Sub channel is used in 5.1 SACD recordings. What Sony intended was that the .1 channel be recorded at the same level as the other speaker channels, in contrast to the normal usage by all OTHER formats where the .1 channel is recorded -10dB down so as to provide a special channel in which to mix *LOUD* bass. This design screw up has led many studios to avoid using that channel altogether for their SACD discs. I.e., their 5.1 discs have the .1 channel silent and ALL bass is mixed into the normal speaker channels. You only get output on the Sub if you engage Crossover processing.

But some other studios have over-thought the problem and actually sell SACD discs with the .1 channel recorded -10dB down on disc, "to be helpful"! If you play one of those discs, then you'll need to add an extra +10dB sub boost to square things, AND you can't use Crossover processing because there's no way for the player to know the .1 content is not starting off at the level it is supposed to be -- so it is out of balanced with the bass mixed in from the other channels. Of course to get Crossover processing in the player (for the multi-channel Analog outputs), you need to let it convert the DSD to LPCM

------------------------------------------------------------------

If you let the player convert the DSD to LPCM -- either for HDMI LPCM output or for multi-channel Analog output -- the player will apply -10dB attenuation to the Sub output channel so that the same Sub boost (external to the player) you are applying with other multi-channel content can be used without change. Unless you are so unlucky as to have one of those bogus SACD discs with the .1 channel ALREADY recorded -10dB down.....
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post #21062 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 03:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
If you let the player convert the DSD to LPCM -- either for HDMI LPCM output or for multi-channel Analog output -- the player will apply -10dB attenuation to the Sub output channel so that the same Sub boost (external to the player) you are applying with other multi-channel content can be used without change. Unless you are so unlucky as to have one of those bogus SACD discs with the .1 channel ALREADY recorded -10dB down.....
--Bob
Then we'll have to apply +20db boost to the sub external to the Oppo if we have one of "those" aforementioned SACD's when we want our Oppo players to convert DSD to LPCM? Wow, I never knew this...hmm.
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post #21063 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 04:34 PM
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Yes. Complaints to Sony, please.
--Bob
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post #21064 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 04:55 PM
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That is pretty bad, from Sony. /// Do they check their own SACD music recordings in their own Sony SACD players?
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post #21065 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 04:58 PM
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Has anyone tried these jellyfish clips? I'm using them to tune my NFS shares.

But over locally attached USB storage, I can play everything up to and including the 110 mbps file. But the highest file, the 120 mbps file, won't play on the 103. The loading spinner comes up and it never gets beyond that.

http://jell.yfish.us/


Epson 5020UB (won on AVSForum!) on Elite Sable 16:9 100", Oppo BDP-83 / 93 (ISO firmware) / 103D, Dune HD Base 3.0, Darblet, Sony MDR-DS7500 Wireless Surround Headphones & Onkyo TX-SR707
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post #21066 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthSky View Post
That is pretty bad, from Sony. /// Do they check their own SACD music recordings in their own Sony SACD players?
This isn't the half of it. DSD was intended as an archival format for archiving analog tapes in digital. The fact that it got turned into a distribution format (SACD discs) is flat out weird. A triumph of marketing over logic. The fact that people are actually trying to edit or process DSD files as DSD boggles the mind.

This is off topic, but if your DSD files don't represent a direct, unedited transcript from Analog tapes, if perhaps they have been up sampled to higher bit rates, or represent a conversion of other digital content, be prepared for disappointment. Oh, and a pile of Internet posts that disagree with that statement.
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post #21067 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 05:49 PM
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Ok Bob, thx for that. ...I'll switch gear; Blu-rays played by my Oppo 103 look simply fantastic...both 2D and 3D versions.
Again, the last couple nights I kissed my Oppo 103 player. ...And it smells good to (I put an air freshener under it).
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post #21068 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 05:52 PM
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post #21069 of 21074 Unread Yesterday, 05:55 PM
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Old Spice? Or Fresh Pine?
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post #21070 of 21074 Unread Today, 06:15 AM
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I'm trying to figure out whether to get the 103 or 103D. I'm running a 7.2.4 system. Below is my whole system:

Projector: Sony HW-40ES
Receiver: Denon 5200
Amplifier: Emotiva-XPA 2
Screen: 150' Horizon Falcon Screen
Right and Left Front in Wall: Polk 265 LS
Center in Wall: Polk Audio 255 LS
Side Surround in-ceiling: 2 Polk Audio 80 F/X LS
Rear Surround in-ceiling: 2 Polk Audio 80 F/X LS
Dolby Atmos in-ceiling: 4 Polk Audio 700 LS
Subwoofers: 2 HSU VTF-15H MK II
Power Conditioner: Panamax M-5400

Would it be worth it to get the 103D? I'm mainly going to use it for playing blu-ray. I will have a cable box too. Haven't decided yet if I'll run it through the blu-ray player or straight to the receiver. Would the 103D be worth it for my system.

Thanks in advance
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post #21071 of 21074 Unread Today, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by johann777 View Post
I'm trying to figure out whether to get the 103 or 103D. I'm running a 7.2.4 system. Below is my whole system:

Screen: 150' Horizon Falcon Screen

Would it be worth it to get the 103D?
Holy cow, that's a big screen (150 FEET???) I'm sure you meant inches...

Anyway, the general consensus is that the larger the display, the more beneficial the Darby effect is, so I'd say that the 103D would be a good fit for your system and worth the extra money.
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post #21072 of 21074 Unread Today, 10:39 AM
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Thanks

I wish it was a 150 foot screen, but yes that was a typo. Time to order the 103D now.
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post #21073 of 21074 Unread Today, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
If you are talking about HDMI DSD output, the OPPO does nothing to the Sub channel level for that. It is treated like a Bitstream. No settings in the OPPO will alter that. I.e., it is an AVR issue for how that HDMI DSD input is being handled by the AVR.

One way to double-check just how the signal is being handled is with tracks 43-48 of the 5.1 layer of, "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD. (Do *NOT* use the Sub channel ID track, which looks identical but isn't, found earlier on that disc.)
I have that Pentatone disc, and here's what I found. First, I'll note that the 103 is connected to an Audyssey-calibrated Denon x4000 AVR using HDMi. Also, that the results were the same regardless of whether the 103's HDMI Audio format was set to Bitstream or LPCM.

I used the old Radio Shack analog SPL meter so that 60 dB would register at the 0 dB point on that meter for tracks 43-47. The levels for these channels stayed the same for both DSD and PCM .

When the 103 was set to output SACDs as DSD, the subwoofer track (48) registered as -6 dB. In contrast, when the 103 was outputting the SACD as PCM, the subwoofer track registered as +2 dB.

In this mini-experiment, it was clear that the subwoofer track was playing significantly louder as PCM compared to DSD. I know this meter has errors in its bass response, but that's irrelevant to its application here.

So Bob--my question is, do you know what subwoofer level Pentatone intended? One that was significantly softer than the other channels, or one that was pretty close to them in SPL?

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Denon x4000, Carver m1.0t, Samsung LED TV, B&W 704 mains, two M&K subwoofers, Oppo 103, Roku 2, etc.
Headphone system: Sennheiser HD600, AKG K701, Burson HA-160, Marantz CD5004, Denon DVD-3910
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post #21074 of 21074 Unread Today, 04:10 PM
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^ The first question is what the Denon is doing with that HDMI DSD input. There are two possibilities. Either it is converting it to LPCM on input or it is passing it to its DACs as DSD. Typically this requires a settings choice in the AVR for how to handle HDMI DSD input.

Now the reason this is important is that, just as when the OPPO is set to DSD-Direct-to-Analog conversion for its own multi-channel Analog outputs, the AVR will not be able to process audio when DSD is being sent straight to its DACs. DSD has to be converted to LPCM before it can be processed.

Among other things, this means the Audyssey calibration is likely bypassed while HDMI DSD input is being sent as DSD to the Denon's DACs. This alone could result in the sort of level differences you are finding.

As for your question, from my testing, it looks like the Sub channel track on the PentaTone SACD runs a little hot compared to the other channels.
--Bob

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