Official OPPO BDP-103 Owner's Thread - Page 707 - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #21181 of 21186 Old Yesterday, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by LairdWilliams View Post
Generally not. If an SACD has no LFE channel, then it really should not matter whether the OPPO or the AVR decodes it - there will still be no LFE signal there. There are a lot of old quad recordings that have been (beautifully) resurrected by several labels and reproduced in 4.0 or 5.0 on SACD, but that display on a status display as 5.1 when playing, and yet you hear little or no subwoofer signal. DO NOT DESPAIR!! That is as it should be for these recordings. They are ".0" recordings. They HAVE no LFE signal - so you should not HEAR a LFE signal.

Now - if your speakers are set to small, then the low-frequency "parts" of your NON-LFE-channels will also go to the subwoofer. So if your speakers are set to small with a 4.0 or 5.0 recording, then you SHOULD have SOME signal going to the subwoofer - just not the non-existant LFE (".1") signal.
I do not have a subwoofer. I set the center and two rear speakers to small so that all the bass including the LFE goes to my main speakers. I have found that my main Infinity floor standing speakers (17 years old) provide me with enough deep bass that I do not need a subwoofer (at least for my taste).

Like I said, I am pretty new to SACD. I recently purchased a 5 SACD set of the Beethoven Symphonies. These are 5.0 and the bass was excellent. However, I just purchased another SACD which is 5.1 and found the bass kind of lacking with the OPPO set to DSD. Since it is late, I will play the rest of the 5.1 SACD tomorrow and change the OPPO setting to LPCM. Hopefully, this will provide better bass (as I have read on many threads).
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post #21182 of 21186 Old Yesterday, 09:49 PM
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Originally Posted by captnvideo View Post
I do not have a subwoofer. I set the center and two rear speakers to small so that all the bass including the LFE goes to my main speakers. I have found that my main Infinity floor standing speakers (17 years old) provide me with enough deep bass that I do not need a subwoofer (at least for my taste).

Like I said, I am pretty new to SACD. I recently purchased a 5 SACD set of the Beethoven Symphonies. These are 5.0 and the bass was excellent. However, I just purchased another SACD which is 5.1 and found the bass kind of lacking with the OPPO set to DSD. Since it is late, I will play the rest of the 5.1 SACD tomorrow and change the OPPO setting to LPCM. Hopefully, this will provide better bass (as I have read on many threads).
I'm not sure what outputs you are using on your 103 for DSD audio listening, or how much/little you are aware of what I'm going to tell you, so if it's somewhat helpful, it was worth the effort.....

The audio processing section of the 103 only applies to its analog outputs. There's no down mixing/crossover processing happening when using the 103's hdmi (digital) outputs.
So, for SACD listening, on the 103's analog outputs, when you say you were setting the center/rear channels to small with no subwoofer utilization, this will only function on the analog outputs "AND" when SACD Output is set to LPCM. When SACD Output is set to DSD, then no 103 audio processing (down mixing, crossover processing) can take place, because that processing is disabled when DSD-Direct to Analog is taking place. So, when you have SACD Output set to DSD, you will lose the LFE (.1) output (since you don't have a sub), as it can't be down mixed into your LF/RF pair.

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post #21183 of 21186 Unread Today, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
I'm not sure what outputs you are using on your 103 for DSD audio listening, or how much/little you are aware of what I'm going to tell you, so if it's somewhat helpful, it was worth the effort.....

The audio processing section of the 103 only applies to its analog outputs. There's no down mixing/crossover processing happening when using the 103's hdmi (digital) outputs.
So, for SACD listening, on the 103's analog outputs, when you say you were setting the center/rear channels to small with no subwoofer utilization, this will only function on the analog outputs "AND" when SACD Output is set to LPCM. When SACD Output is set to DSD, then no 103 audio processing (down mixing, crossover processing) can take place, because that processing is disabled when DSD-Direct to Analog is taking place. So, when you have SACD Output set to DSD, you will lose the LFE (.1) output (since you don't have a sub), as it can't be down mixed into your LF/RF pair.
I am very sorry for not making myself clear.

I use HDMI 1 to my TV and HDMI 2 to my Yamaha A/V receiver. There is no analog connections between the OPPO and the Yamaha.

My Yamaha can process DSD. So I do get audio both ways: with the OPPO set to LPCM or to DSD. I just wish to know which is better and if I could experience a drop in the LFE level (for 5.1 SACD if I use DSD.

I am also a bit disturbed by the low volume output level I am experiencing from SACDs compared to other sources. I had to crank the volume on the Yamaha to -5db when playing the latest SACD I purchased. That is about 10db higher than the average for DVDs and MCH FLAC via USB.

Last edited by captnvideo; Today at 07:21 AM. Reason: additional information
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post #21184 of 21186 Unread Today, 07:37 AM
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^ If your AVR accepts HDMI DSD Input, there are two possible things that can happen next: Either it converts that digitial DSD to digital LPCM on input (just as if you had set the OPPO to do that for its own, HDMI 2 output), or it LEAVES that digital input signal as DSD and sends the digital DSD to its DACs for *DIRECT* conversion to Analog.

The key difference here is that DSD can not be processed on its way to the DACs. Processing of audio in the digital domain is done in LPCM. So if you tell the AVR to use DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion -- sending the DSD, as DSD, to the DACs for conversion to Analog -- the AVR can't process that signal. That means no Crossover processing and no down-mixing. So for example, if you don't have a Subwoofer configured in the AVR then the LFE channel coming in as part of that DSD input is simply discarded. It is *NOT* mixed into the Left Front / Right Front speakers. And if the Surrounds are set to SMALL in the AVR, then Crossover processing does not happen for those, either. Whatever bass is in those channels is sent to the Surrounds just as if you had them configured as LARGE in the AVR.

If you let the AVR convert the DSD input to LPCM first, then it can do whatever digital audio processing it allows for multi-channel, 88.2KHz, LPCM input.

Because these consequences of DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion can be a surprise, every AVR which offers this feature requires the user to enable it -- a setting in the AVR. The default choice will almost certainly be that the AVR applies conversion of DSD to LPCM on input.

Also be aware that quite a few AVRs which accept HDMI DSD as Input DON'T ACTUALLY OFFER DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion. I.e., they ALWAYS convert that DSD to LPCM as the first step on input -- no user option. You'll need to check the details of your AVR to see if it offers DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion. A key clue here is that if there is no switch setting to enable that in AVR then it likely isn't available.

--------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: The Analog output Speaker Configuration settings in the OPPO, including Crossover processing and down-mix, have no effect on its HDMI audio outputs. HDMI output happens automatically according to the results of the HDMI handshake.

If you set the OPPO to output HDMI LPCM on HDMI 2 when playing an SACD, then the OPPO will apply -10dB attenuation to the LFE channel as part of that. This is so that the AVR can apply it's standard, +10dB boost to the LFE channel as part of its processing just as it does with all other LPCM input. This is necessary because the AVR has no way of knowing that the content coming in as multi-channel HDMI LPCM originated from an SACD disc (i.e., recorded using the funky rules of SACD authoring).

If you set the OPPO to output HDMI DSD on HDMI 2 when playing an SACD disc, then the LFE channel goes out unaltered. The AVR is expected to know that incoming DSD follows the poorly designed rules for SACD, and to handle the incoming LFE channel accordingly.

Either way, this gets screwed up if the studio decided to "be helpful" and author their SACD with the LFE channel *ALREADY* attenuated by -10dB. Such is life in the world of SACD discs.

Of course if the studio is one of those which bypasses this issue by not using the LFE channel at all -- i.e., authoring their 5.1 SACD audio so that the .1, LFE, channel is silent -- then this is not an issue. All bass for such discs is authored into the normal speaker channels. The Subwoofer, if present, will remain silent unless Crossover processing is engaged -- which means DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion is *NOT* engaged.

----------------------------------------------------

If you switch to using the multi-channel Analog audio outputs of the OPPO then the same considerations apply as described above for how the AVR handles HDMI input.

I.e., if the OPPO is allowed to convert the DSD from the SACD disc to LPCM first, then all of its normal audio processing for the multi-channel Analog outputs is available.

However if you have DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion selected, i.e., SACD Output set to DSD, (or AUTO when the HDMI is also connected to an AVR that can accept HDMI DSD input), then NO AUDIO PROCESSING can happen for the multi-channel Analog outputs. No Crossover, no down-mix, no speaker distance adjustment, nothing. It remains the case that the Analog Subwoofer output is attenuated -10dB compared to the RCA jacks for the other speakers. Thus a +10dB boost is still appropriate, external to the player, on the Subwoofer signal path. So you get output as if the Speaker Configuration was set to enable 5.1 speakers which are LARGE and Equidistant, regardless of the actual Speaker Configuration settings.

----------------------------------------------------

Since there are multiple opportunities for confusion and non-intuitive behavior here, it is wise to CHECK your actual output using a calibration track and an SPL meter. You can use tracks 43-48 from the 5.1 layer of "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD, to do this.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!

Last edited by Bob Pariseau; Today at 07:56 AM.
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post #21185 of 21186 Unread Today, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captnvideo View Post
I am also a bit disturbed by the low volume output level I am experiencing from SACDs compared to other sources. I had to crank the volume on the Yamaha to -5db when playing the latest SACD I purchased. That is about 10db higher than the average for DVDs and MCH FLAC via USB.
Cranking up the volume for the SACD is probably related to the dynamic range (quiet parts to loud parts is greater) being greater than what you're used to hearing on your DVD or FLAC recordings. We are so used to hearing music with the dynamic range being compressed that when we do hear some songs with a lot of range, it doesn't sound right so we have to turn up the volume to get it where we are used to.

So I'm guessing there is no issue with the 103 or your Yamaha regarding you having to turn the volume up, the SACD is probably behaving just like it's supposed to.

Check out the website below if you're curious about dynamic range on different recordings, it's rather interesting.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/

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post #21186 of 21186 Unread Today, 08:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ If your AVR accepts HDMI DSD Input, there are two possible things that can happen next: Either it converts that digitial DSD to digital LPCM on input (just as if you had set the OPPO to do that for its own, HDMI 2 output), or it LEAVES that digital input signal as DSD and sends the digital DSD to its DACs for *DIRECT* conversion to Analog.

The key difference here is that DSD can not be processed on its way to the DACs. Processing of audio in the digital domain is done in LPCM. So if you tell the AVR to use DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion -- sending the DSD, as DSD, to the DACs for conversion to Analog -- the AVR can't process that signal. That means no Crossover processing and no down-mixing. So for example, if you don't have a Subwoofer configured in the AVR then the LFE channel coming in as part of that DSD input is simply discarded. It is *NOT* mixed into the Left Front / Right Front speakers. And if the Surrounds are set to SMALL in the AVR, then Crossover processing does not happen for those, either. Whatever bass is in those channels is sent to the Surrounds just as if you had them configured as LARGE in the AVR.

If you let the AVR convert the DSD input to LPCM first, then it can do whatever digital audio processing it allows for multi-channel, 88.2KHz, LPCM input.

Because these consequences of DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion can be a surprise, every AVR which offers this feature requires the user to enable it -- a setting in the AVR. The default choice will almost certainly be that the AVR applies conversion of DSD to LPCM on input.

Also be aware that quite a few AVRs which accept HDMI DSD as Input DON'T ACTUALLY OFFER DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion. I.e., they ALWAYS convert that DSD to LPCM as the first step on input -- no user option. You'll need to check the details of your AVR to see if it offers DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion. A key clue here is that if there is no switch setting to enable that in AVR then it likely isn't available.

--------------------------------------------------------

NOTE: The Analog output Speaker Configuration settings in the OPPO, including Crossover processing and down-mix, have no effect on its HDMI audio outputs. HDMI output happens automatically according to the results of the HDMI handshake.

If you set the OPPO to output HDMI LPCM on HDMI 2 when playing an SACD, then the OPPO will apply -10dB attenuation to the LFE channel as part of that. This is so that the AVR can apply it's standard, +10dB boost to the LFE channel as part of its processing just as it does with all other LPCM input. This is necessary because the AVR has no way of knowing that the content coming in as multi-channel HDMI LPCM originated from an SACD disc (i.e., recorded using the funky rules of SACD authoring).

If you set the OPPO to output HDMI DSD on HDMI 2 when playing an SACD disc, then the LFE channel goes out unaltered. The AVR is expected to know that incoming DSD follows the poorly designed rules for SACD, and to handle the incoming LFE channel accordingly.

Either way, this gets screwed up if the studio decided to "be helpful" and author their SACD with the LFE channel *ALREADY* attenuated by -10dB. Such is life in the world of SACD discs.

Of course if the studio is one of those which bypasses this issue by not using the LFE channel at all -- i.e., authoring their 5.1 SACD audio so that the .1, LFE, channel is silent -- then this is not an issue. All bass for such discs is authored into the normal speaker channels. The Subwoofer, if present, will remain silent unless Crossover processing is engaged -- which means DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion is *NOT* engaged.

----------------------------------------------------

If you switch to using the multi-channel Analog audio outputs of the OPPO then the same considerations apply as described above for how the AVR handles HDMI input.

I.e., if the OPPO is allowed to convert the DSD from the SACD disc to LPCM first, then all of its normal audio processing for the multi-channel Analog outputs is available.

However if you have DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion selected, i.e., SACD Output set to DSD, (or AUTO when the HDMI is also connected to an AVR that can accept HDMI DSD input), then NO AUDIO PROCESSING can happen for the multi-channel Analog outputs. No Crossover, no down-mix, no speaker distance adjustment, nothing. It remains the case that the Analog Subwoofer output is attenuated -10dB compared to the RCA jacks for the other speakers. Thus a +10dB boost is still appropriate, external to the player, on the Subwoofer signal path. So you get output as if the Speaker Configuration was set to enable 5.1 speakers which are LARGE and Equidistant, regardless of the actual Speaker Configuration settings.

----------------------------------------------------

Since there are multiple opportunities for confusion and non-intuitive behavior here, it is wise to CHECK your actual output using a calibration track and an SPL meter. You can use tracks 43-48 from the 5.1 layer of "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD, to do this.
--Bob
Bob:

Thanks so much for all the detail. It does help me understand things a bit better.

My Yamaha AVR does not have any DSD settings to choose from. So it obviously, as you said, converts the DSD to PCM upon input. This makes sense since my Yamaha does not have any internal LFE level adjustment (like the older one I had from 2003).

Given that, I played the same SACD 5.1 track twice, the first time with the OPPO set to LPCM and the second time set to DSD.

Without a doubt, it sounded much better with the DSD setting on the OPPO. It was fuller and had a bit more volume. I did feel the bass more too since there was no -10db attenuation of the LFE coming out of the OPPO.

I will stick with the DSD setting and enjoy it.

Since my speakers do produce an enormous amount of deep bass from 5.1 channel DVDs, I found it unnecessary to purchase a separate sub-woofer. I guess I should not expect too much as far as LFE is concerned on a classical 5.1 SACD. Maybe I will try a popular (rock) SACD and see how it is.

Thanks for the support.

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