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Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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^ Distance adjustment is implemented as a relative time delay while the audio is still in digital format. Another way to think of it is "time alignment" for the speakers at different distances.

If there is an error in time alignment then sounds that should image somewhere between a pair of speakers will instead image to one side or the other of the intended location.
--Bob
JGKuro's Avatar JGKuro
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Bob, thanks for the explanation. Really appreciate the hard work you do! Thanks so much.

JG
RichB's Avatar RichB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGKuro View Post

Thank you Bob...this is very helpful.

I still am unclear what the Speaker Distance settings actually do to the sound but I will continue to play around with it. Thank you so much for the stereo downmix and LT/RT clarification. I can now try to understand the difference in this setting.

JG

I don't see the valie in the short distances usually involved.
At about 1 millisecond per foot, it is not perceivable.

- Rich
Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by JGKuro View Post

Thank you Bob...this is very helpful.

I still am unclear what the Speaker Distance settings actually do to the sound but I will continue to play around with it. Thank you so much for the stereo downmix and LT/RT clarification. I can now try to understand the difference in this setting.

JG

I don't see the valie in the short distances usually involved.
At about 1 millisecond per foot, it is not perceivable.

- Rich

The Avia Pro, SD-DVD, calibration disc set has a Distance Compensation check on their Audio Tests disc. Basically this produces click tones that shift back and forth between a selected pair of speakers -- with a double click that's supposed to be centered between them. Using that test you can experiment with putting in INCORRECT relative distances to see what happens. To take an extreme case, if your LF/RF are both actually at 13 feet, and you deliberately set LF to 1 foot and RF to 20 feet then ALL these click tones will appear to come from LF.

Now, precision in imaging between speakers is much less important in music than in movies, because in music you don't have visual cues as to where the sounds are SUPPOSED to be coming from. But even in music you don't want gross errors in speaker time alignment.

After all, you want to be able to point out that this quartet sounds better than that quarter simply because the players sat a little closer together. Just close your eyes and you can HEAR where they are! biggrin.gif
--Bob
RichB's Avatar RichB
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^^^

If you sit exactly between two speakers and listen to a well recorded track, the imaging is fantastic.
Moving even a small distance to the left or right can collapse the sound field.
The physics involved points to the volume difference and not the time domain.
3 feet make more difference in volume than it does in time delay.

I am not saying don't use distance settings, just that the volume levels are more important and perceivable.

- Rich
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post Kal, you mean to tell me you don't hear the clicking sound upon powering up your 105? It happens about 14-15 seconds after pressing power. A rather loud "click" or "snap".

I cannot recall ever having heard it.  I recycled the power on the 103 just now and heard no clicks at all.  The only noise is the initial spin up of the disc mechanism.  I will try the 105 when I get back to the city.


Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

 Kal, you mean to tell me you don't hear the clicking sound upon powering up your 105? It happens about 14-15 seconds after pressing power. A rather loud "click" or "snap".
I cannot recall ever having heard it.  I recycled the power on the 103 just now and heard no clicks at all.  The only noise is the initial spin up of the disc mechanism.  I will try the 105 when I get back to the city.

The 103 does its audio muting in the electronics -- no relays, and thus no "click". The 105 uses relays for muting to avoid the extra electronics (i.e., improved signal purity).
--Bob
Quinton Fox's Avatar Quinton Fox
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Gents,

I received my BDP-105 last week and it continues its process of burn in. I have installed the latest firmware update.
Some have mentioned the unit's tendency towards brightness, and it indeed sounds brighter than the duo it replaces.

My listening so far has been a mix consisting of my cd collection, some sets purchased at HD tracks, and many of the free files at the 2L site. Comparing 2L 24/192 FLAC files with the oppo-supported dsd-64 DFF files has been most informative/disturbing. To my ears the differences are very striking, make that too striking. The FLAC files sound very bright, yet the DFF files not at all. Whereas the sound of the DFFs to my ears sounds like a normal mix of ground tone and harmonics, the FLAC files sound like a weirdly processed product where the ground tone has been greatly attenuated and the balance of the other harmonics is strangely disturbed. Thus, this sense of "acidic" brightness, that is also apparent when playing many of my CDs.

Could any of you please provide me with some input on this?
Is this a matter that can be solved by changing any of the settings?

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Q
Kal Rubinson's Avatar Kal Rubinson
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post


The 103 does its audio muting in the electronics -- no relays, and thus no "click". The 105 uses relays for muting to avoid the extra electronics (i.e., improved signal purity).
--Bob

I know but that is all I could do here.  I will add that I do not, typically, find relay clicks disturbing as I grew up with electronics with solenoid controls and the clacks were reassuring.  I also never found the well-discussed clicks on the Integra to be bothersome.  The only clicks that concern me are those that migh occur during the actual playback of the program material.


DanF8500's Avatar DanF8500
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Quote:
I cannot recall ever having heard it. I recycled the power on the 103 just now and heard no clicks at all. The only noise is the initial spin up of the disc mechanism. I will try the 105 when I get back to the city.
Quote:
The 103 does its audio muting in the electronics -- no relays, and thus no "click". The 105 uses relays for muting to avoid the extra electronics (i.e., improved signal purity).
--Bob
Good to know!! None of the "clicks" I'm hearing occur during the audio playback.....just before it.....but it startles me every time I hear it..I sit about 7-8 ft away from the 105, and my 105 sits on a shelf with no obstructions on any side of it. I keep thinking something is going to malfunction in the player. Then, very intermittently, the click would be followed by a static filled dsd audio playback.....but, like I said, it is so intermittent, it's hard to say when it will happen.....over the past couple of months, I have only heard this static a few times.....Thanks, guys!
DanF8500's Avatar DanF8500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quinton Fox View Post

Gents,

I received my BDP-105 last week and it continues its process of burn in. I have installed the latest firmware update.
Some have mentioned the unit's tendency towards brightness, and it indeed sounds brighter than the duo it replaces.
Could any of you please provide me with some input on this?
Is this a matter that can be solved by changing any of the settings?
...
Your help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Q
Quinton,, could you tell us your audio setup with your 105 (connections, preamps, pre-pro, power amps, 2-channel, multi-channel, etc.). It will help knowing this. I'm assuming you're using analog out of the 105....are you maxing out the volume control of the 105 and controlling volume with a preamp? This kind of info will help. I'm getting close to 200 hrs playback on my 105, and it's really settled down from when it was brand new. My 16/44 audio has never sounded better. To me, it's like having a new cd collection. I'm really enjoying my redbooks again.
Quinton Fox's Avatar Quinton Fox
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Dear Dan,

Thank you for your response.
Here is an overview of my system.

Oppo powered via Microblock. Output xlr via Straightwire Serenade into balanced input of Krell KRC (freshly recapped) also into Microblock. Out xlr to Krell KSA-250 (also freshly recapped) via Cardas Hexlink 5. Out into Mirage1si via MIT shotgun NHT bi-wire.

The Oppo replaces a 1990 combination of a Kenwood DP-x9010 CD transport and a Siltech Sphinx Project 3 dac, connected by the Furakawa fiber optic interconnect. I brought this set from the Netherlands when I came to the States 21 years ago. My contact at Krell during the recapping process, who also owns an Oppo, brought player output attenuation to my attention. Thus, connecting the old Spinx to the optical output of the Oppo, I carefully matched volumes, ending up at an 88 out of a hundred setting for the Oppo.

In the Oppo menu I set up for 2 large speakers, with all other switched off, and stereo down-mixed. I did so after contacting Oppo and immediately regained the bass that I had been missing.

Replay of many aspects of my cd collecting has improved. There is more clarity and spacial resolution has markedly improved. Many aspects are more analog than before, yet there Is this brightness, that also occurs in high res files. E.g., Milt Jackson's vibraphone just misses the ground tones. Yet the replay of DFF files is superb.

Thanks,

Q
DanF8500's Avatar DanF8500
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Quote:
Thus, connecting the old Spinx to the optical output of the Oppo, I carefully matched volumes, ending up at an 88 out of a hundred setting for the Oppo.
Quinton, thanks or your info. You have a very nice system! I'm not sure I understood your selection of 88 on the Oppo volume, but I know that the 105's volume control does not effect the digital outputs of the 105....only the analog. Dan
Quinton Fox's Avatar Quinton Fox
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Dan,

You are correct. I set the level at 88 so that analog levels of the Oppo and sphinx are matched.

I have read many good things about DFF replay. Yet cannot imagine that this format would outperform FLAC by such a wide margin. Thus, I am wondering whether a setting or maybe a software bug might be to blame for the obvious difference. It would be interesting to hear from those who have also compared the various formats offered at the 2L freebie site.

Thanks,

Q
DanF8500's Avatar DanF8500
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^Quinton, where did you get your dff files from? The 2L site? I seem to recall that dsd files on that site are not "true" dsd recordings. They are originally in dxd format, then converted to dsd. Dan
swspiers's Avatar swspiers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I don't see the valie in the short distances usually involved.
At about 1 millisecond per foot, it is not perceivable.

- Rich

That is actually not correct. The human ear can detect delays as small as three microseconds, according to a study by Kellogg in 1962. But let us not confuse conscious perception, in which we are aware of the delay, and the unconscious perception in which the stereo image falls apart due to the Precedence or Haas Effect.
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Sorry to cut in on this dance but I do not recall reading the answer to my (upcoming question) and I have been following this thread closely. I see that Oppo has finally released this player in a silver color. My question is this, Is it a silver COLOR (read painted silver) or the naked brushed aluminum. The components I have have are actual metallic faces (brushed aluminum) and it's somewhat reasonable to think a painted component would look somewhat out of place, not to mention that a component at this price may appear "cheap looking" based on its finish. The darker finish still LOOKS like metal (assuming anodized but I have only seen pictures), whereas the pictures of the silver units all appear to be painted silver. Anyone with a silver finished 105 care to shed some light on this matter? Thanks smile.gif
Coris's Avatar Coris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

I don't see the valie in the short distances usually involved.
At about 1 millisecond per foot, it is not perceivable.

- Rich

About this speaker distances one can set up in the players menu, is to mention that this is an software processing of the digital signal, according to a designed algorithm, to introduce a phase delay, so to simulate the perceptual distance of the sound sources.
I appreciate this option as a gimmick, maybe useful for those who use the player more for film watching (multichannel set up). A purist audiophile really want all these processing and altering of the original audio signal?
Why not set this distance for all speakers to Zero, and all speakers to Large to have an straight and unprocessed audio signal out of the DACs?
DanF8500's Avatar DanF8500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

About this speaker distances one can set up in the players menu, is to mention that this is an software processing of the digital signal, according to a designed algorithm, to introduce a phase delay, so to simulate the perceptual distance of the sound sources.
I appreciate this option as a gimmick, maybe useful for those who use the player more for film watching (multichannel set up). A purist audiophile really want all these processing and altering of the original audio signal?
Why not set this distance for all speakers to Zero, and all speakers to Large to have an straight and unprocessed audio signal out of the DACs?
Exactomundo!! That's what I was aiming for myself. Bob suggested to me it was more important to keep "equivalent" distance values for my speakers, and to not change them from their default values (i.e. "large" = 12ft). I too wanted "zero" processing of the digital signal, and thought by setting the distance values to 0, I would be accomplishing this. Of course, as Bob mentioned, there is a firmware bug in the 105 where speaker distance settings for Left Front / Right Front are applied to the Dedicated Stereo Analog outputs even when Stereo Signal DOWN-MIXED STEREO is selected. I would like re-clarification from Bob or some other competent 105 user on this subject matter....Thank You!
gsr's Avatar gsr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

About this speaker distances one can set up in the players menu, is to mention that this is an software processing of the digital signal, according to a designed algorithm, to introduce a phase delay, so to simulate the perceptual distance of the sound sources.
I appreciate this option as a gimmick, maybe useful for those who use the player more for film watching (multichannel set up). A purist audiophile really want all these processing and altering of the original audio signal?
Why not set this distance for all speakers to Zero, and all speakers to Large to have an straight and unprocessed audio signal out of the DACs?
It's not a gimmick. It's there for those (most?) people who can't place their speakers equidistant from each other. If you have your speakers placed equidistant, then set all the distances to the same value in the Oppo setup and no additional processing will happen. It doesn't matter if they're all set to 0 or 12 - as long as they're all the same number, no delays will be added.
Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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^ Exactly. What matters is the relative difference in distances. Not the absolute value. If you don't want time alignment processing, or if that is already being done in your AVR, then set all speakers to the same distance -- any distance will do so long as they are all the same. You might as well just leave them at the default 12 ft.

There is nothing fancy going on if the distances are different. The digital signal for the nearer speakers is simply buffered and held long enough to match the timing with the more distant speakers.

This is the same sort of buffering that's already going on all the time to establish correct A/V Sync. It's just that it varies by speaker whereas the default sync delay affects all speakers.
--Bob
Coris's Avatar Coris
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Sorry, the explanation about most people who will not equidistant place theirs speakers do not hold in my opinion. All serious audiophile knows to that simple rule to place accordingly the speakers in the listening room. It will not be like this at one of the stereo speakers will be place at 3 feet and another one at 10, or 6 feet. This looks to me quite ridiculous... There is a fact that if the speaker distance in the player menu is different than 0, then there is a digital signal processing/calculation. The same processing is happen when the speaker is not set to Large. It were designed an algorithm about how it have to be heard an (digital) audio signal when a speaker is placed at so and so feet, and if that speaker is medium or small. (Medium or small speakers !!! What is this? The speakers are how it have to be (a combination of all dimensions) to sounds well for the price one pay for....) The main processor follow that designed algorithm when one set in the menu respective values. The calculation/processing algorithm is not used when one set signal processing on 0 distance (and to large speakers). This is just obviously...
gsr's Avatar gsr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

Sorry, the explanation about most people who will not equidistant place theirs speakers do not hold in my opinion. All serious audiophile knows to that simple rule to place accordingly the speakers in the listening room. It will not be like this at one of the stereo speakers will be place at 3 feet and another one at 10, or 6 feet. This looks to me quite ridiculous... There is a fact that if the speaker distance in the player menu is different than 0, then there is a digital signal processing/calculation.
MOST people don't have dedicated rooms were they can set their systems up perfectly. That's a fact. The settings allow the user to compensate for a less than optimal speaker placement in the room. Those who have optimal placement just need to set all distances the same and no extra processing will happen. As Bob and I both stated it doesn't matter if all values are set to 0 or 12 (or any other number, as long as they're all the same) no extra processing happens as the Oppo is smart enough to figure out that it isn't needed. That's a matter of fact, we're not just guessing at this - we're both beta testers for Oppo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

The same processing is happen when the speaker is not set to Large. It were designed an algorithm about how it have to be heard an (digital) audio signal when a speaker is placed at so and so feet, and if that speaker is medium or small. (Medium or small speakers !!! What is this? The speakers are how it have to be (a combination of all dimensions) to sounds well for the price one pay for....) The main processor follow that designed algorithm when one set in the menu respective values. The calculation/processing algorithm is not used when one set signal processing on 0 distance (and to large speakers). This is just obviously...
eek.gif The small / large designation simply determines if the selected crossover frequency should be applied and has absolutely nothing to do with distance. Speakers set to small will have the selected crossover applied and content below the crossover frequency will be redirected to the subwoofer. Speakers set to large will not have the selected crossover applied. This is no different from what every competent receiver / pre-pro does for speaker configuration.
Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

Sorry, the explanation about most people who will not equidistant place theirs speakers do not hold in my opinion. All serious audiophile knows to that simple rule to place accordingly the speakers in the listening room. It will not be like this at one of the stereo speakers will be place at 3 feet and another one at 10, or 6 feet. This looks to me quite ridiculous... There is a fact that if the speaker distance in the player menu is different than 0, then there is a digital signal processing/calculation. The same processing is happen when the speaker is not set to Large. It were designed an algorithm about how it have to be heard an (digital) audio signal when a speaker is placed at so and so feet, and if that speaker is medium or small. (Medium or small speakers !!! What is this? The speakers are how it have to be (a combination of all dimensions) to sounds well for the price one pay for....) The main processor follow that designed algorithm when one set in the menu respective values. The calculation/processing algorithm is not used when one set signal processing on 0 distance (and to large speakers). This is just obviously...

Your "fact" is incorrect.

Calm down. The sort of bizarre processing you think is going on, simply isn't going on.
--Bob
HowardV's Avatar HowardV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

Sorry, the explanation about most people who will not equidistant place theirs speakers do not hold in my opinion. All serious audiophile knows to that simple rule to place accordingly the speakers in the listening room. It will not be like this at one of the stereo speakers will be place at 3 feet and another one at 10, or 6 feet. This looks to me quite ridiculous... There is a fact that if the speaker distance in the player menu is different than 0, then there is a digital signal processing/calculation. The same processing is happen when the speaker is not set to Large. It were designed an algorithm about how it have to be heard an (digital) audio signal when a speaker is placed at so and so feet, and if that speaker is medium or small. (Medium or small speakers !!! What is this? The speakers are how it have to be (a combination of all dimensions) to sounds well for the price one pay for....) The main processor follow that designed algorithm when one set in the menu respective values. The calculation/processing algorithm is not used when one set signal processing on 0 distance (and to large speakers). This is just obviously...

I think you're mixing up stereo vs. multi-channel. Yes, in a stereo set-up, both front speakers are usually equal distance from the listener. And easy task to accomplish in most rooms. No need for time delay. But in a multi-channel environment, all the speakers usually are NOT the same distance from the listener. Hence the need for time delay. In PCM, this is not a difficult trick requiring lots of processing to take anything away from the music. If DSD direct via SACD, then all time delay adjustments are skipped anyways. And of course, time delay has no effect on 2-channel mode.
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Has anyone tried a pair of Byerdynamic T1 headphones with the 105? Can the headphone output sufficiently drive them?
Bob Pariseau's Avatar Bob Pariseau
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^ Here's an article that discusses use of the 105's headphone output jack with various models of headphones (including a couple Beyerdynamic models):

http://noblehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/oppo-bdp-105eu-review.html

The T1's are not specifically included, but the article may give you a starting point.
--Bob
Mongo171's Avatar Mongo171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coris View Post

Sorry, the explanation about most people who will not equidistant place theirs speakers do not hold in my opinion. All serious audiophile knows to that simple rule to place accordingly the speakers in the listening room. It will not be like this at one of the stereo speakers will be place at 3 feet and another one at 10, or 6 feet. This looks to me quite ridiculous... There is a fact that if the speaker distance in the player menu is different than 0, then there is a digital signal processing/calculation. The same processing is happen when the speaker is not set to Large. It were designed an algorithm about how it have to be heard an (digital) audio signal when a speaker is placed at so and so feet, and if that speaker is medium or small. (Medium or small speakers !!! What is this? The speakers are how it have to be (a combination of all dimensions) to sounds well for the price one pay for....) The main processor follow that designed algorithm when one set in the menu respective values. The calculation/processing algorithm is not used when one set signal processing on 0 distance (and to large speakers). This is just obviously...

I'm sorry I'm not an audiophile like yourself.

That being said, I am currently running a 3.1 system. Don't have my surrounds yet. I enjoy music as well as HT.

All 4 of my speakers happen to be at different distances to my MLP. The speaker distances and trims absolutely help me out in my situation. That is why I bought the 105.

Maybe a more audiophile (read: more expensive)-like Universal player would be more to your liking.
bwv1080's Avatar bwv1080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

^ Here's an article that discusses use of the 105's headphone output jack with various models of headphones (including a couple Beyerdynamic models):

http://noblehifi.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/oppo-bdp-105eu-review.html

The T1's are not specifically included, but the article may give you a starting point.
--Bob

Thank you. Since both the T1's and and 880's are 600 ohms and the 800's seemed to work with the headphone jack, I see no reason that the T1's wouldn't! (Unless they are grossly less efficient, which their specs don't suggest.)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sinistre1 View Post

Sorry to cut in on this dance but I do not recall reading the answer to my (upcoming question) and I have been following this thread closely. I see that Oppo has finally released this player in a silver color. My question is this, Is it a silver COLOR (read painted silver) or the naked brushed aluminum. The components I have have are actual metallic faces (brushed aluminum) and it's somewhat reasonable to think a painted component would look somewhat out of place, not to mention that a component at this price may appear "cheap looking" based on its finish. The darker finish still LOOKS like metal (assuming anodized but I have only seen pictures), whereas the pictures of the silver units all appear to be painted silver. Anyone with a silver finished 105 care to shed some light on this matter? Thanks smile.gif

I do not know myself, but why not just contact Oppo directly? They will give you the answer you are looking for.
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