Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 283 - AVS Forum
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LairdWilliams View Post

Ok - time for a lesson on line-level audio interconnects, which is what you create when you connect an audio output from one piece of gear to the audio input on another.
Speakers are not line level...and the "goals" for a speaker connection to an amp are VERY different from the goals for connecting two line-level devices.
People get confused between the rules for speakers and for interconnects...that's ok.

I apologize in advance if this is too much detail - so I will save you some trouble. It is VERY hard to have too HIGH an input impedance. If you don't want any more information, then stop here and you should be all set. Otherwise - some basic concepts may help you in the future:

Ok -so most of this is about REALLY basic electronics. You need to think voltage dividers and RC-filters.

Voltage Dividers
When you string two impedances (or resistances) in a row and take a signal from in-between, you have a voltage divider. A voltage divider is just an attenuator - e.g. it will drop the voltage by a certain amount. The new voltage is a simple function of both the first and second impedance. If the first impedance is I1 and the second is I2, then Vnew = Vold * I2 / (I1 + I2). In the case of an audio interconnect, I1 is the output impedance of the sending device, and I2 is the input impedance of the receiving device.

So look at this function for a sec. What is I2 is really big and I1 is tiny? The I2/(I1+I2) would be really close to 1. REALLY close to "no attenuation". But if I1 were really big and I2 were small, then the new voltage would be a very small fraction of the original voltage, and you get "tons" of attenuation. If I1 and I2 are exactly equal then you get exactly 1/2 the voltage out that you put in, which is exactly -6dB by the way.

There is more to it than this, since the impedances actually vary with frequency. But as it turns out - the manner in which frequency impacts the whole process makes the following MORE true, and not less:

If you have a low output impedance feeding a nice, high input impedance then you get very little attenuation (at ANY frequency), which is what you want. This is because the voltage divider that you create by connecting the equipment has a ratio of darn close to 1.

Laird-speak: "Low output impedance good, high input impedance good"

in context
Soooooo - this is why I said that connecting the 100-ohm output impedance of the 105 to a 23.5k input impedance on an amp should not have any audible problems stemming from the resulting voltage divider. The attenuation due to the voltage divider in this case is 0.42% ,which is about -0.04dB...which is essentially nothing.

RC Filters
And R-C filter is just a passive filter created by joining an impedance (or resistance) and a capacitance. RC networks get used all the time for crossovers. You can create both high-pass and low-pass filters using one resistance and one capacitance, just depending on the order in which you string them together.

Why does this matter? Well, your shielded cable has a capacitance set up between the signal wire and the (grounded) shield. The amount of capacitance is a function of the materials used in the cable and its length, with longer cables having higher capacitances than shorter ones. So now you have an output impedance followed by a "cap-to-ground", which is the textbook picture of a low-pass filter. A low-pass filter blocks higher frequencies and permits lower frequencies to "pass".

It is again a simple math function to determine the frequency at which the highs start to roll off. This is the 3dB-down point, and it is computed easily as f = 1/(2*pi)*R*C, where pi is everyone's favorite oddball mathematical constant.

[In Context]
Ok - so let's turn the question around though. "What capacitance would I need, with the Oppo BDP-105's 100 ohm output impedance, to result in roll off starting at the theoretical human hearing max frequency of 22000 Hz?" (Never mind that the vast majority of folks over 20 years old can't hear much above 16000Hz, and that as you get older it gets worse, and that if you play in a rock band you are darn lucky if you can hear past 12000Hz.)

Anyway - this results in a value of 0.072uF (micro-farads). Wow! That's not much right?! sorry - wrong. "Normal" cables run about 120pF per Meter (that's PICO-Farads, which are 1000 times smaller than NANO-Farads, which are STILL 1000 times smaller than micro-farads). Some higher-priced cables do better.

So we are talking about 72,000pF * 1meter/120pF = around 600 meters of cable.

So you'd have to have nearly 2000ft of audio cable running between your 105 and an amp, and some VERY unrealistically good ears, to even HOPE to hear the tone roll-off resulting from the RC filter.

If you have a nice low output impedance, you pretty much never have to worry about tone roll-off due to the RC filter created by your output impedance and the capacitance of your cable.

Laird-speak: "Low output impedance good (again)!"

Loads
So now we get to the last major factor impacting the electrical signal that crosses your audio interconnects, loads. This one is more complicated, so I will avoid any mathematical treatment. Your downstream device can actually rob your upstream device of power. If you have a small amplifier circuit connected to your output (which is usually the case), then the receiving device can "draw" so hard on the signal that it robs your output device of power - like if the sending device can't provide enough power for the receiving device. The tonal effects of this problem can be really pronounced. I run into this problem all the time with guitar amps that have unbuffered FX loops and passive loop level controls.

There are several ways that a receiving device can "load" a sending device....but one is that there is a path to ground through the input impedance at the receiving end. Losing current here is bad news, as that can contribute substantially to the load on the sending end. So, guess what you need. I high input impedance means that LESS current will travel to ground than it would with a low input impedance. High input impedance wins again!

Laird-speak: "High input impedance good (again)!"


That's 2 votes for having a high input impedance to zero for having a low input impedance for highest fidelity.
That's 2 votes for having a low output impedance to zero for having a high output impedance for highest fidelity.

I'd say we know who the winners are. Oppo can't control the input impedance of the device to which the 105 is connected, nor can they control the quality or length of the cable you choose to use. What they CAN control is output impedance - and they did so very well. In doing so, they made the cable largely-irrelevant (other than mechanical considerations). They also, apparently, provided a recommendation for load impedance. If they recommend a 47K input impedance for a load, just about anything at or over 47K will do.
I would be worried about anything much lower than that.

(For reference, In the guitar world, we routinely deal with input impedances of 100k-ohms to 1,000k-ohms once we reach the point where we want to preserve audio fidelity.)


Based on a review in AudioXpress (October 2013, link available on the OPPO website) the OPPO BDP-105 uses TI LME49724 op-amps as output devices on the balanced outputs and TI LM4562 op-amps for the unbalanced outputs. Based on the datasheets for these devices, either is capable of driving 2 volts unbalanced or 4 volts into a 600 ohm or greater impedance at less less than .001% distortion 20Hz to 20kHz. These devices are often considered the best available op-amps today (Reference D. Self's books) based an optimum combination of voltage noise, distortion and drive capability.

These output voltage levels should drive any power amplifier to maximum output. A typical power amplifier (about 29dB of voltage gain), depending on its ultimate capacity, will output 100 watts with a 1 volt input, 400 watts with a 2 volt input and 1,600 watts with a 4 volt input into 8 ohm loads. Power output would double into 4 ohm loads and double again into 2 ohm loads base on the voltage drive level, of course typical amplifiers are not able to output any where close to this sort of power based on current delivery limitations.

It is possible that some of the Macintosh power amplifiers, which use output impedance matching transformers, would not reach full output on the 2 ohm taps, and perhaps on the 4 ohms taps, since the voltage sensitivity of these amplifiers falls with the output tap setting. (Reference some of the measurements in Stereophile.) It is also possible that very powerful amplifiers with only unbalanced inputs or lower voltage gain would also not be driven to maximum output.

An amplifier with 26dB of voltage gain will output 50 watts into 8 ohms with a 1 volt of input, 200 watts with a 2 volt input, etc. An amplifier with 20dB of gain will output 12.5 watts with a 1 volt input, 50 watts with a 2 volt input, etc. (Assuming my math is correct.) Amplifiers with these sorts of gains would clearly need higher drive levels than the BDP-105 provides.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Mann View Post

VTuner digital network streaming into OPPO BDP-105
V-Tuner is now used by over 12,000 streaming internet stations for music, talk, television, and one webcam station. I have become a fan-boy of the jazz streaming stations because they sound to me sonically much better than FM and HD audio. And commercial-free higher rez streams are frequently available for a relatively small fee.

V-tuner is used by some of the electronics industry to get selected internet audio streaming web sites into specific devices (per the V-Tuner web site) including:

1. Selected AV receivers of Anthem, Arcam, Denon, Harman Kardon, NAD, Onkyo, Pioneer, Revox, Sony, Teac.
2. Selected networking products of some of the above plus D-Link, LG, Netgear, Sitecom, T+A, Vantage.
3. A bunch of stand-alone internet radios and some televisions.

http://www.vtuner.com/

This post is a restated post of an earlier question. Hopefully this post is more clear.

I do understand that laptops and desktops that are Apple and PC can handily accomplish the above. Especially when equipped asynchronously. Not sure I want to keep one of my laptops or my desktop on all the time for this purpose. Definitely will use my Apple laptop and PCs to stream asynchronously into the 105!

Thanks.

If you have PC that is a solution.
Other solutions like Roku support TuneIn which works well.
Does it have the stations you desire?

- Rich

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Old 12-31-2013, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post

Well yeah, but that's because a lot of rock music is compressed and treble boosted for radio.

Again, the player is very honest and accurate, so if you have a good amp and the Oppo, you're really hearing the music as it's recorded. If you want a player that softens the music, look elsewhere - I know some other brands have their treble rolled off to make the music a little "warmer" or "rounder" - I prefer accuracy - and that's what the Oppo is really good at.

On great recordings, the Oppo is worth twice it's asking price!


I've found that harshness is often related to the uneven off axis response of loudspeakers and sidewall reflections. If the first reflections from the sideways don't have the same frequency response as the direct sound (assuming the direct sound has a flat response) then the sound can be harsh. Most speakers unfortunately have a peak off axis in the 2kHz to 5kHz region off axis due to the different off axis response characteristics between the mid-range driver and the tweeter. Just look at the measurements of horizontal off axis response in a review of about any speaker in Stereophile. Those lumps off axis in the lower end of the tweeter response are painful to the ears!

I have a media room that allows experimentation. I use 4-inch (don't use 2-inch panels) thick sound absorption panels (ATS Acoustics - fiberglass) at the first refection points on the left and right walls for some speakers and not others, depending on the speaker. (I use additional panels in the room as well but don't add or remove them based on the speakers.)

For examples: I found Linkwitz Orion speakers didn't need absorption, the original Revel Salons do, the Salon2's don't. The effect is quite obvious. Many of the complaints about harsh sounds are due to reflections of off axis sounds which don't have a uniform frequency response (Actually a slowly falling response with increasing frequency is most desirable) based on my experience in my room. Massed violins that sound painful without reflection control, sound wonderful with a properly treated room.

Floyd Toole's book seems to provide the same sort of guidance. It is required reading in my opinion. It is the best book to read if you want to improve the sound of your system.

Piling on even order (asymmetric) harmonic distortion (warmth) in an attempt to cover defects arising from other causes seems misguided in my opinion, particularly since it inevitably leads to multi-tone intermodulation distortion as the volume is increased, that in turn leads to that desire to, "Turn it down!"
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:20 PM
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So I've read the thread and I'm still confused regarding the proper 2 channel setting.

I'm using the dedicated analog out connected to SAS Audio lab preamp for 2 channel. HT duties is run via HDMI to Marantz SR 8002 receiver.

So I have the oppo down mix stereo. In speaker configuration I have both L/R speaker set as large and subwoofer on. DTS NEO 6 set off. DSD on and SACD on.

Question is should I leave the subwoofer set ON or OFF.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:44 PM
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Mann View Post

VTuner digital network streaming into OPPO BDP-105

Is there a receiver or device other than a PC or Apple laptop/desktop that streams internet audio (has V-Tuner) and can output unprocessed bit-streams via USB, digital coax or digital optical into the BDP-105?

Definitely will use my Apple laptop and PCs to stream asynchronously into the 105!

Thanks.
Have you tried the Pandora radio app on the 105 yet?
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Old 01-01-2014, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post


Have you tried the Pandora radio app on the 105 yet?

It is OK but it is not Internet radio.


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Old 01-01-2014, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Mann View Post

VTuner digital network streaming into OPPO BDP-105
V-Tuner is now used by over 12,000 streaming internet stations for music, talk, television, and one webcam station. I have become a fan-boy of the jazz streaming stations because they sound to me sonically much better than FM and HD audio. And commercial-free higher rez streams are frequently available for a relatively small fee.

Thanks.

If you have PC that is a solution.
Other solutions like Roku support TuneIn which works well.
Does it have the stations you desire?

- Rich

No I have not used TuneIn. Just looked it up and appears the number of jazz stations is limited and does not include JazzRadio.com. Appreciate the reference though. All the best.
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Mann View Post

Is there a receiver or device other than a PC or Apple laptop/desktop that streams internet audio (has V-Tuner) and can output unprocessed bit-streams via USB, digital coax or digital optical into the BDP-105?.

Find a used SqueezeBox Touch.  It will access Internet radio as well as vTuner and the output is available via USB (with a mod), digital coax and digital optical into the BDP-105.


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Old 01-01-2014, 08:09 PM
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Thanks Kal! Will begin looking for a Squeezebox Touch now.
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:37 PM
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+1 on the SB Touch. Still my main source for music except multi-channel.
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Old 01-02-2014, 12:57 PM
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:04 PM
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I did some a/b comparisons between the hdmi out and analog outs (both stereo outputs and multi l/r) but could not discern any difference at all in sound. I thought the Oppo dac would provide some noticeable difference in sound quality but that was not the case for me.

The outputs went to a Sony avr receiver (their flagship es model about five years old). For source I used both the Oppo with Redbook cds as as well as a squeezebox touch streaming (digital coax to the Oppo mostly, but also tried with it's dac (analog to the Oppo) but no noticeable difference either). Speakers are Ascend ribbon towers.

I might not have a golden ear but I know I am not deaf either as I can easily hear changes to sound when making subtle eq adjustments, subwoofer levels/crossover etc.

Any comments?
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

but also tried with it's dac (analog to the Oppo)

Really?

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Old 01-02-2014, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

I did some a/b comparisons between the hdmi out and analog outs (both stereo outputs and multi l/r) but could not discern any difference at all in sound. I thought the Oppo dac would provide some noticeable difference in sound quality but that was not the case for me.

The outputs went to a Sony avr receiver (their flagship es model about five years old). For source I used both the Oppo with Redbook cds as as well as a squeezebox touch streaming (digital coax to the Oppo mostly, but also tried with it's dac (analog to the Oppo) but no noticeable difference either). Speakers are Ascend ribbon towers.

I might not have a golden ear but I know I am not deaf either as I can easily hear changes to sound when making subtle eq adjustments, subwoofer levels/crossover etc.

Any comments?

Your Sony receiver may be re-digitizing Analog input so that it can apply its "value added" audio processing. The result then has to be converted BACK to Analog (for output to your speakers) by the DACs in the Sony. So you are hearing the DACs in the Sony just as would be the case with HDMI audio. The DACs in the Sony may be very good, so not necessarily a problem. But that would account for not being able to hear a difference between Analog and HDMI from the OPPO.

Also the OPPO has no Analog audio Inputs, so you could not have been passing the output of the Squeezebox's DACs to the OPPO.
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Old 01-02-2014, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

I did some a/b comparisons between the hdmi out and analog outs (both stereo outputs and multi l/r) but could not discern any difference at all in sound. I thought the Oppo dac would provide some noticeable difference in sound quality but that was not the case for me.

The outputs went to a Sony avr receiver (their flagship es model about five years old). For source I used both the Oppo with Redbook cds as as well as a squeezebox touch streaming (digital coax to the Oppo mostly, but also tried with it's dac (analog to the Oppo) but no noticeable difference either). Speakers are Ascend ribbon towers.

I might not have a golden ear but I know I am not deaf either as I can easily hear changes to sound when making subtle eq adjustments, subwoofer levels/crossover etc.

Any comments?

I would use your AVR's pass through setting to use the superior DAC's in the 105. With your Sony being that old, I doubt its DAC's are any way near the 105's.

Life without bass is not worth living.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:02 PM
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I have had my 105 4 months, it will not now play any form of disc. I have the 1204 firmware update that came in a few days ago, i doubt that has anything to do with it.
It appears the disc is not spinning. To top it off i just bought a new 5 ch amp and can't play any concerts! I hope the warranty repair is fast.

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Old 01-02-2014, 06:04 PM
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I have had my 105 4 months, it will not now play any form of disc. I have the 1204 firmware update that came in a few days ago, i doubt that has anything to do with it.
It appears the disc is not spinning. To top it off i just bought a new 5 ch amp and can't play any concerts! I hope the warranty repair is fast.

It is. But before you seal it up for shipment, do talk to the folks at OPPO Tech Support. They may have some things for you to try to see if the player just needs to be reset in some fashion.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:08 PM
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Oh OK, Thanks for that, i did go to the Oppo site however, it says if i am in Australia to contact the seller, I have just had a call to say it will be picked up and shipped to Melbourne...that sounds like i will be without it for a couple of weeks. I will try Oppo now....

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Old 01-02-2014, 06:10 PM
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Service in Australia will be done via the distributor (i.e., it doesn't have to come back to California). In general, the shipping time each way is usually the biggest part of the time. In the US it's not unusual for them to fix a unit and ship it back out the same day it arrives.
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Old 01-02-2014, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Your Sony receiver may be re-digitizing Analog input so that it can apply its "value added" audio processing. The result then has to be converted BACK to Analog (for output to your speakers) by the DACs in the Sony. So you are hearing the DACs in the Sony just as would be the case with HDMI audio. The DACs in the Sony may be very good, so not necessarily a problem. But that would account for not being able to hear a difference between Analog and HDMI from the OPPO.

Also the OPPO has no Analog audio Inputs, so you could not have been passing the output of the Squeezebox's DACs to the OPPO.
--Bob

Correct, I mis-typed regarding Squeezebox DACs to Oppo, I had meant Squeezebox's direct to Sony avr.

I also was worried at first that the Sony might be redigitizing the analog in but I don't think that is the case because when I use HDMI I am locked out of adjusting any speaker settings
on the Oppo but can do so on the Sony, and then when switching to Analog the reverse becomes true.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:02 PM
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I would use your AVR's pass through setting to use the superior DAC's in the 105. With your Sony being that old, I doubt its DAC's are any way near the 105's.

I believe that the Oppo's DACs are being used when outputting Analog to the AVR. From what I can tell it is essentially passing through the AVR without any processing.
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Old 01-02-2014, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

I believe that the Oppo's DACs are being used when outputting Analog to the avr. From what I can tell it is essentially passing through without any processing.

Correct. The OPPO's DAC's are used for the MCH analog outputs to the AVR. It would be optimum for the AVR just to pass through the signal to the amp.

I know I was amazed at the MCH analog outputs when hooked up to my amp. I don't use an AVR.

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Old 01-02-2014, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

I did some a/b comparisons between the hdmi out and analog outs (both stereo outputs and multi l/r) but could not discern any difference at all in sound. I thought the Oppo dac would provide some noticeable difference in sound quality but that was not the case for me.

The outputs went to a Sony avr receiver (their flagship es model about five years old). For source I used both the Oppo with Redbook cds as as well as a squeezebox touch streaming (digital coax to the Oppo mostly, but also tried with it's dac (analog to the Oppo) but no noticeable difference either). Speakers are Ascend ribbon towers.

I might not have a golden ear but I know I am not deaf either as I can easily hear changes to sound when making subtle eq adjustments, subwoofer levels/crossover etc.

Any comments?

Are you using the main Left/Right outputs for the front channels rather than the dedicated m-ch outs? It sounds far better that way--see page 74 (at the bottom) of your owner's manual.

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Old 01-02-2014, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Mongo171 View Post

Correct. The OPPO's DAC's are used for the MCH analog outputs to the AVR. It would be optimum for the AVR just to pass through the signal to the amp.

I know I was amazed at the MCH analog outputs when hooked up to my amp. I don't use an AVR.

I have not done a/b comparisons between the AVR's amp and a separate amp, but I have to suspect there would be no noticeable difference
unless one amp or the other is actually adding or removing something from the music.

Have you done a/b comparisons or are you just saying you're happy with the sound?
I understand that comparisons that involve disconnecting and reconnecting equipment are more difficult than the type
of a/b/c comparisons that I have have done which simply involve changing inputs via remote, so it's understandable if you have not.
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bwv1080 View Post

Are you using the main Left/Right outputs for the front channels rather than the dedicated m-ch outs? It sounds far better that way--see page 74 (at the bottom) of your owner's manual.

Yes I have tried both. I read an Oppo representative's post that they themselves do not really hear any difference between the two and I concur.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

Yes I have tried both. I read an Oppo representative's post that they themselves do not really hear any difference between the two and I concur.

Does the Sony have a 5.1 or 7.1 analog input ? if so is that what you used to connect the Oppo's stereo outs too?
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Service in Australia will be done via the distributor (i.e., it doesn't have to come back to California). In general, the shipping time each way is usually the biggest part of the time. In the US it's not unusual for them to fix a unit and ship it back out the same day it arrives.
--Bob


I have it booked in for pick up, it has to go to Melbourne, it will be collected Monday afternoon, hopefully it's one day there, one day repair, one day back...add a day because it's for me, back by Friday i hope.
So far the service has been great, no reply's to my emails however, once i made the call, i had several return calls from the seller and the service manager.

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Old 01-02-2014, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by audiofan1 View Post

Does the Sony have a 5.1 or 7.1 analog input ? if so is that what you used to connect the Oppo's stereo outs too?

The Oppo's stereo outs went into one of the Sony stereo inputs while the 5.1 outs went to the Sony 5.1 analog inputs.
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Old 01-03-2014, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Hamlet00 View Post

I have not done a/b comparisons between the AVR's amp and a separate amp, but I have to suspect there would be no noticeable difference
unless one amp or the other is actually adding or removing something from the music.

Have you done a/b comparisons or are you just saying you're happy with the sound?
I understand that comparisons that involve disconnecting and reconnecting equipment are more difficult than the type
of a/b/c comparisons that I have have done which simply involve changing inputs via remote, so it's understandable if you have not.

I have not done an a/b test. When I bought my 105, I sold my aging Sony ES Preamp. The 105 just opened up the soundstage and was very detailed. Much more than my Sony ES ever did.

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