Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 340 - AVS Forum
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post #10171 of 11524 Old 04-19-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

I really doubt there are too many 105 owners with non-equidistant setups though.
For stereo setups maybe but for multichannel I bet there are lots of setups where all 6 speakers are not all the same distance from the listening position. And besides it really doesn't matter what the numbers are; the interface for setting the speaker distances is flawed and needs to be fixed regardless of how many 105 owners use the interface or not.

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post #10172 of 11524 Old 04-19-2014, 10:04 PM
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Sorry, but this entire discussion seems to ignore something: when these multichannel sources were mixed, the engineers didn't just dump different sounds on your DVD or other source for YOU, the listener, to "place" based on YOUR speaker placement in YOUR listening room. The engineer had to be listening over HIS (or HER) studio monitoring system and its own speaker placement. The mixing engineer was constrained based on his monitors. Just like a stereo music mixer mixes "into" the frequency response of his monitors (eg, if the mix monitors are too bright, his mix on your "flatter" system will seem dull), a multichannel mixer is gauging his voice, FX, and music placement based on his mix room. Unless you know ITS measurements, there is no "correct" setting you can impose on your system. Someone alluded earlier to letting your ears (and eyes) be your guide. That's all you can do. But your settings have nothing to do with right or wrong or accuracy. Which may be why "all zeros" might sound better: your going with the mixers dimensions without imposing other dimensions (delays or advances) on top of them, thus mucking up the intended mix.
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post #10173 of 11524 Old 04-19-2014, 11:23 PM
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^
I get all that - in fact it was me who suggested just trusting your ears. I'd love to not affect the sound any more then necessary and in that respect leaving all distances at 0 seems like a great idea. But from the viewpoint of the blu-ray player engineer why did he include an interface to adjust the distances? There must be some software sound reproduction issue that is being addressed. The ability to adjust speaker distances in an analog-out multichannel system is nothing new. Every manual of every multichannel player that I've ever had (a total of 5 since 2003) has a section on setting the speaker distances for the analog output.

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post #10174 of 11524 Old 04-19-2014, 11:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Process53 View Post

For stereo setups maybe but for multichannel I bet there are lots of setups where all 6 speakers are not all the same distance from the listening position. And besides it really doesn't matter what the numbers are; the interface for setting the speaker distances is flawed and needs to be fixed regardless of how many 105 owners use the interface or not.

Of course it needs fixed. I wasn't implying otherwise. I was only iterating the fact that with the current info at hand, this bug won't effect most people. Hopefully it will be fixed soon though.

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post #10175 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by paul54 View Post

Sorry, but this entire discussion seems to ignore something: when these multichannel sources were mixed, the engineers didn't just dump different sounds on your DVD or other source for YOU, the listener, to "place" based on YOUR speaker placement in YOUR listening room. The engineer had to be listening over HIS (or HER) studio monitoring system and its own speaker placement. The mixing engineer was constrained based on his monitors. Just like a stereo music mixer mixes "into" the frequency response of his monitors (eg, if the mix monitors are too bright, his mix on your "flatter" system will seem dull), a multichannel mixer is gauging his voice, FX, and music placement based on his mix room. Unless you know ITS measurements, there is no "correct" setting you can impose on your system. Someone alluded earlier to letting your ears (and eyes) be your guide. That's all you can do. But your settings have nothing to do with right or wrong or accuracy. Which may be why "all zeros" might sound better: your going with the mixers dimensions without imposing other dimensions (delays or advances) on top of them, thus mucking up the intended mix.

Umm, I'm pretty sure the professional mixing/recording studios are mixing the audio as equal distance to all channels, equidistant to the prime the seating position in a home environment.
As such, where the audio is being played back, it is up to the listener to position themselves in the same position.
It matters not what the original distance was, if there even was a distance at all, but all channels arrive simultaneously, so then the distance is moot.
It can be 1ft, 12ft, or 25ft, it doesn't matter. It only matters when the distances from each speaker are not identical, and that is when the distance settings in the player or pre-amp come into play.
They are then used to correct the channels so that all the audio arrives at the listeners ears when it needs to.
Human hearing capable of so much more than what the speakers produce. Depth perception of how far way sound is coming from in the soundstage is done by your brain, not by the speakers or audio source.
That is why it is so important for the audio to arrive when it's supposed to, so that your brain can process it properly.
This is more obvious with movie soundtracks than with music, but it is still important for both.

There is a youtube vid that demonstrates binaural audio and how you brain determines where sound is coming from, despite the actual audio being 2 dimensional,
our brains can make it 3 dimensional. This will be also be better understood as "XI" audio is brought to market soon.
My point being, is that you should use the proper real world distance setting if you are not sitting equal measurements away from every speaker in your setup. smile.gif

Here's the vid if anyone wants to check it out. You'll need your headphones. wink.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

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post #10176 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 12:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul54 View Post

Sorry, but this entire discussion seems to ignore something: when these multichannel sources were mixed, the engineers didn't just dump different sounds on your DVD or other source for YOU, the listener, to "place" based on YOUR speaker placement in YOUR listening room. The engineer had to be listening over HIS (or HER) studio monitoring system and its own speaker placement. The mixing engineer was constrained based on his monitors. Just like a stereo music mixer mixes "into" the frequency response of his monitors (eg, if the mix monitors are too bright, his mix on your "flatter" system will seem dull), a multichannel mixer is gauging his voice, FX, and music placement based on his mix room. Unless you know ITS measurements, there is no "correct" setting you can impose on your system. Someone alluded earlier to letting your ears (and eyes) be your guide. That's all you can do. But your settings have nothing to do with right or wrong or accuracy. Which may be why "all zeros" might sound better: your going with the mixers dimensions without imposing other dimensions (delays or advances) on top of them, thus mucking up the intended mix.

Umm, I'm pretty sure the professional mixing/recording studios are mixing the audio as equal distance to all channels, equidistant to the prime the seating position in a home environment.
As such, where the audio is being played back, it is up to the listener to position themselves in the same position.
It matters not what the original distance was, if there even was a distance at all, but all channels arrive simultaneously, so then the distance is moot.
It can be 1ft, 12ft, or 25ft, it doesn't matter. It only matters when the distances from each speaker are not identical, and that is when the distance settings in the player or pre-amp come into play.
They are then used to correct the channels so that all the audio arrives at the listeners ears when it needs to.
Human hearing capable of so much more than what the speakers produce. Depth perception of how far way sound is coming from in the soundstage is done by your brain, not by the speakers or audio source.
That is why it is so important for the audio to arrive when it's supposed to, so that your brain can process it properly.
This is more obvious with movie soundtracks than with music, but it is still important for both.

There is a youtube vid that demonstrates binaural audio and how you brain determines where sound is coming from, despite the actual audio being 2 dimensional,
our brains can make it 3 dimensional. This will be also be better understood as "XI" audio is brought to market soon.
My point being, is that you should use the proper real world distance setting if you are not sitting equal measurements away from every speaker in your setup. smile.gif

Here's the vid if anyone wants to check it out. You'll need your headphones. wink.gif
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUDTlvagjJA

I'm well-acquainted with binaural and it is unrelated to the discussion. Our brain doesn't "create" a soundstage; it processes what we hear, whether that sound is something in nature, or is coming from a speaker. You are making a wild assumption about the "placement" of the mixing engineer in his studio, or where that engineer's reference "sweet spot" is in his mixing suite. And even if the engineer's head was equidistant to all his speakers, you cannot assume what that distance was! Is the BluRay mix different in its timing from the theatrical release's audio? Was the mix made for the middle of the average theater? 1/3 back?

I'm talking about way more than directionality. That's why adding binaural recording or listening to the discussion is pointless. You don't have 7.1 headphones do you? The discussion relates to speaker placement and signal delay--headphones are quite the different animal. There's no point in listening to a binaural recording on speakers of any kind. You must reproduce the sound from a source at the ears. And based on my experiences in movie theaters, the sheer artificiality of sound design and placement tells me that accurate binaural reproduction is not the aim of multichannel mixing engineers.
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post #10177 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Dan,
I can now CONFIRM THAT YOU HAVE FOUND A BUG: The distance values for LF and RF are, indeed, being applied backwards. There's no doubt about it. That is, the correct result is achieved by putting the LF distance in the RF field while also putting the RF distance in the LF field.

I've not tested all the speaker pairs, but if it's backwards for LF/RF, obviously they ALL need to be checked as part of the fix.

I'll report this through Beta Tester channels.

Good Catch!
--Bob

This points to an issue where I set the front channel distances off a bit then found that the imaging was off, set the channel balances with a meter then reduced the right channel output to push the image back toward the center. My main seating position is slightly to the right. I wasn't as sharp as you guys to pick up the issue, I just messed with the balances then gave up, it never occurred to me that a firmware issue could be going on, and I seldom listen to music lately, mostly surround on movies. I got the 105 in January I think and transferred the settings from my 95 to the 105. I've been unhappy that the 105 soundstage seems less stable than the 95, maybe this is it...? I used the stock firmware for a while then updated but I don't remember what it delivered with or when I updated, and can't even remember of the issue was there when I first set it up, although I do think it was more likely than not, just because I don't remember noticing an issue after an update.

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post #10178 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:25 AM
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^ Thank you, thank you, thank you, Bob, for verifying this for me!! I guess I'm not going crazy after all!! biggrin.gif

Yesterday, I spoke with an Oppo tech, and reported two issues regarding the 105's speaker distance setting. The tech recorded my info and said he would present it at their Friday bug report meeting.

Part #1 of troubleshooting is ASSUMING that your test equipment is calibrated and the readings are correct.

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post #10179 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:47 AM
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It ain't easy trying to tell a thousand Oppo owners that you found a bug as blatant as this one in the firmware. They are more quick to tell you something is wrong with your system than to blame Oppo. Maybe they have a vested interest in Oppo. I don't. I just own their equipment, and I like it. I'm quite neutral in that respect. That's the only difficult part about this. The testing was the easy part. Trying to make others believe what you have proven to yourself is much harder. All I needed was one other sharp cookie to tell me I was right, then everyone else would join the bandwagon. It's no different on this forum than it is on all other forums. I'm used to it, but I'm kind of a newcomer here, but not new to other forums, so I understand the difficulties in getting people to believe in what I was so sure myself about. No matter what line of business we specialize in, errors will happen...they will continue to happen with each new released version of firmware. One problem is solved, another one gets created. This forum operates like a working branch of Oppo. I'm sure they're grateful for this forum, and the folks who support them in helping to create a better product. And I'm not surprised that Oppo doesn't catch these bugs themselves before they are released to the public. I was a sw test/design engineer for 15 years, and firmware bugs are not always found in house.
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post #10180 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by paul54 View Post

I'm well-acquainted with binaural and it is unrelated to the discussion. Our brain doesn't "create" a soundstage; it processes what we hear, whether that sound is something in nature, or is coming from a speaker. You are making a wild assumption about the "placement" of the mixing engineer in his studio, or where that engineer's reference "sweet spot" is in his mixing suite. And even if the engineer's head was equidistant to all his speakers, you cannot assume what that distance was! Is the BluRay mix different in its timing from the theatrical release's audio? Was the mix made for the middle of the average theater? 1/3 back?

I'm talking about way more than directionality. That's why adding binaural recording or listening to the discussion is pointless. You don't have 7.1 headphones do you? The discussion relates to speaker placement and signal delay--headphones are quite the different animal. There's no point in listening to a binaural recording on speakers of any kind. You must reproduce the sound from a source at the ears. And based on my experiences in movie theaters, the sheer artificiality of sound design and placement tells me that accurate binaural reproduction is not the aim of multichannel mixing engineers.

LOL, are you an attorney? You are pretty good at taking someone else words and twisting them into something else.
The binaural example was quite simply to show how the human brain processes sound to determine field of depth.
I never said any of the other things you insinuate, but it is very relevant despite your opinion.
There would be no sweet spot if your brain didn't process it as such.
One thing you don't seem to quite understand, is that the distance from the speaker to the ear doesn't matter when all of the speakers are the same distance away.
So it does not matter what the distances were when the recording was done, as long as they were equal.
This is why there is no difference in sound from the player when setting those distances to -0- or 10, or 20, etc... as long as they all measure the same, they sound identical since they all arrive at the ear simultaneously.

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post #10181 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 12:32 PM
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The best expectation a well made passive preamp in line between your 105 and amp would be that it won't degrade the audio coming from your source (the Oppo). It can't improve it.....the only way that I can see it possibly helping sonically in your system would be as an attenuator, and allow your 105 to operate at its maximum dynamic range potential. An attenuator can be used when your analog output voltages of your source (your 105) are too high for the input of your power amp. If you can't raise your 105's volume above 10 (too loud) for example, then using an audiophile-grade passive preamp as an attenuator would be a resolution. Some power amps have selectable input gain on its inputs (i.e. 0 db, 6 db, 12 db) to allow you to better match an output source (i.e. your 105) with it.
+1
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What is the best video setting for a TV in order to optimize the oppo 105 video settings?

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post #10183 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 04:45 PM
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Of course the Oppo only handles digital sources.
That may be true but usually people apply distance compensation in the AVR. My reply covers all contingencies.

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post #10184 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 04:50 PM
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It ain't easy trying to tell a thousand Oppo owners that you found a bug as blatant as this one in the firmware. They are more quick to tell you something is wrong with your system than to blame Oppo.
This was an easy one to overlook, as most systems have the L/R at the same distance.

I have seen a more blatant example, where the delays dialed in were interpreted as delays. If you said the center speaker was 3 feet further than the L/R, it would add 3 ms delay to the C signal, doubling the timing error. It was like this in a cira $10k processor for the first year of its production, and no one noticed.

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post #10185 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 05:25 PM
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I've done more testing of the distance adjustments and confirmed the error also occurs for LS with respect to RS and for LF with respect to LS.

At this point I think the odds are good the distance adjustment is being done incorrectly for ALL the speakers.

In addition, I've satisfied myself that it is NOT a case of the distance value being applied to the wrong speaker. For the LF/LS test, making changes in the LF and LS distances affected the result. If the LF value was mistakenly being applied to the RF speaker as yesterday's testing suggested (and the LS value to the RS speaker as today's testing suggests) that would not be the case.

So I think the odds are good that the distance values are, in fact, being applied to the correct speaker. It's just that the sign is backwards in the math for determining the needed delay to apply to each speaker!

If that's really true, then a temporary workaround, pending a real fix from OPPO, would work like this.

1) Measure the Actual distances to each of your speakers and determine the Average of that set of distances.

2) For each speaker, determine the Difference between its Actual distance and that Average: Difference = Actual - Average

3) For that same speaker, set its "workaround" distance to the value Average - Difference.

If the average of your speaker distances is 8 feet and some speaker is actually at 10 feet, then set its workaround distance to 6 feet.

If the average of your speaker distances is 8 feet and some speaker is actually at 5 feet, then set its workaround distance to 11 feet.

The upshot is that if a speaker is actually 5 feet further away than a 2nd speaker, you will set the workaround values to place it 5 feet CLOSER than that 2nd speaker. The extra calculation via the Average gives you results that work for all speaker pairs regardless of which pair you look at.
--Bob
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post #10186 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 06:11 PM
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^ Wow! This is a bigger bug than I thought! This affects any 10x owner who uses the speaker distance settings.

I need a little time to think about those changes you're suggesting, because I initially had agreed with you concerning the swapping of the distances between L and R speakers as a valid explanation. For example, my right speaker distance was 9 ft, while my left was at 6 ft. If I swapped the two distance values between the speakers, all was good.
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post #10187 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 06:17 PM
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^ Keep in mind the absolute distance values aren't important. What matters is the +/- distance difference between pairs of speakers. By swapping your 9 and 6 foot distances you turned a +3 difference into -3 which is the desired "workaround" result. On the other hand if you have other speakers you need to adjust ALL the distances so that the distance delta is properly reversed for every pairing. The math using the Average accomplishes that.
--Bob


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post #10188 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 06:29 PM
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^ Yes. Actually, before swapping my speaker distances, I lowered my right speaker to 3 ft. while keeping my left at 6 ft, which computes to the same delta distance as swapping the distances.
Quote:
The upshot is that if a speaker is actually 5 feet further away than a 2nd speaker, you will set the workaround values to place it 5 feet CLOSER than that 2nd speaker.
Yes, that's what I did...
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Does the subwoofer distance setting matter?

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post #10190 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:32 PM
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Wow, after reading all this, I keep thinking - keep it simple and enjoy your systems. We just installed an Oppo 105 D in a custom professional planetarium: 40' nano seam dome, 4K JVC projectors, BSS/Lab Gruppen/Fulcrum Audio. 7.1 sound system, and state of the art planetarium system software. We feed the video via HDMI into the planetarium video processors which re-render the video signal (flatten) on to a 30' x 17' picture "slice"and the audio via 7.1 analog into the audio processor. Bluray movies and other video inputs (Nextflix, Chromecast, etc.) look almost as good as in a movie theater and the sound is noticeably better that most theaters, including IMAX and Dolby Atmos. All the video processing is accomplished through the internal Oppo circuitry and we will most likely improve the image by making video adjustments to the projectors. The Darby video enchantment makes a marked difference to the image quality (and I was quite skeptical about this before seeing the results). We also use the Oppo 105 D to play high resolution audio files in the planetarium. All this said, we are completely sold on the abilities of this $1,300 player (in a million dollar system). I am ordering one for my own home theater.
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post #10191 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:42 PM
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^ Bob, instead of having owners compute a Difference value, just have them compute the workaround distance as " 2*AVG - ACTUAL".
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post #10192 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:51 PM
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^ Sure, that's what the math does. I just figured it would make more sense to people if they could see how the math was accomplishing the reversal of the distance delta.
--Bob


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post #10193 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Process53 View Post

Does the subwoofer distance setting matter?

I've no easy way to verify that the Subwoofer distance adjustment is also being screwed up, but I think the odds are good that it is. Which means, yes, you want to enter a "workaround" distance for the Subwoofer as well -- and the actual Subwoofer distance should be part of your calculation of the Average. The reason is not for positioning of bass in the surround field. (Bass is non-localizable -- it appears to come "from everywhere".) The reason is because proper distance adjustment of the Sub with respect to the main speakers is part of getting the Sub's Phase correctly matched to the main speakers.
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post #10194 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:06 PM
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^ Sure, that's what the math does. I just figured it would make more sense to people if they could see how the math was accomplishing the reversal of the distance delta.
--Bob
By the way, how does your multi-ch system sound now? biggrin.gif Is it a clearly different listening experience than before? It's remarkable that no one on the 10x forums, aside from Omar and Process, had noticed there was something strange going on. I know most were quick to judge and say something must be wrong with their home systems. Heck, even if this bug was introduced in the last release, that was in February. Two months ago. eek.gif
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post #10195 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:11 PM
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^ I normally let my D2v do the distance adjustments -- even when using multi-channel Analog from the 105D. That is, I leave the speakers set equidistant in the OPPO and put the actual speaker distances into the D2v.

So I wouldn't have noticed this bug when it was introduced, since the last time I checked the distance adjustment stuff as part of Beta Testing was quite some time ago.

As it turns out, my speaker layout is pretty symmetric, so it doesn't surprise me that I was not able to hear anything amiss when I did the check for Omar. In that case what I was checking for was a distinct screwup in audio processing quality due to distance adjustment being engaged AT ALL. But a symmetric layout doesn't provide a way to hear if the distance adjustment math itself is backwards.
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post #10196 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:17 PM
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Wow, after reading all this, I keep thinking - keep it simple and enjoy your systems. We just installed an Oppo 105 D in a custom professional planetarium: 40' nano seam dome, 4K JVC projectors, BSS/Lab Gruppen/Fulcrum Audio. 7.1 sound system, and state of the art planetarium system software. We feed the video via HDMI into the planetarium video processors which re-render the video signal (flatten) on to a 30' x 17' picture "slice"and the audio via 7.1 analog into the audio processor. Bluray movies and other video inputs (Nextflix, Chromecast, etc.) look almost as good as in a movie theater and the sound is noticeably better that most theaters, including IMAX and Dolby Atmos. All the video processing is accomplished through the internal Oppo circuitry and we will most likely improve the image by making video adjustments to the projectors. The Darby video enchantment makes a marked difference to the image quality (and I was quite skeptical about this before seeing the results). We also use the Oppo 105 D to play high resolution audio files in the planetarium. All this said, we are completely sold on the abilities of this $1,300 player (in a million dollar system). I am ordering one for my own home theater.

That sounds like a fun project!

And it's certainly nice to hear about a million dollar system that's not made up of $5,000 power cords and the like... biggrin.gif
--Bob


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post #10197 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:17 PM
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^ Got it! Are you going to place your bug workaround on the other 10x forums?
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post #10198 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 08:21 PM
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^ Not yet. It's not confirmed in the 103/103D yet, and I'd like to hear from OPPO that it really is affecting all the speaker channels. (Bench testing with a scope is the definitive test.)

But for folks here who've resorted to all 0 foot distances, the "workaround" distances should work better. If I've sussed this out correctly....
--Bob


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post #10199 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 10:41 PM
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For stereo setups maybe but for multichannel I bet there are lots of setups where all 6 speakers are not all the same distance from the listening position. And besides it really doesn't matter what the numbers are; the interface for setting the speaker distances is flawed and needs to be fixed regardless of how many 105 owners use the interface or not.

So my fronts are at 8.5 feet and the 4 surrounds are at 5.5!

My humble Cinema
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post #10200 of 11524 Old 04-20-2014, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by gowhitten View Post

Wow, after reading all this, I keep thinking - keep it simple and enjoy your systems. We just installed an Oppo 105 D in a custom professional planetarium: 40' nano seam dome, 4K JVC projectors, BSS/Lab Gruppen/Fulcrum Audio. 7.1 sound system, and state of the art planetarium system software. We feed the video via HDMI into the planetarium video processors which re-render the video signal (flatten) on to a 30' x 17' picture "slice"and the audio via 7.1 analog into the audio processor. Bluray movies and other video inputs (Nextflix, Chromecast, etc.) look almost as good as in a movie theater and the sound is noticeably better that most theaters, including IMAX and Dolby Atmos. All the video processing is accomplished through the internal Oppo circuitry and we will most likely improve the image by making video adjustments to the projectors. The Darby video enchantment makes a marked difference to the image quality (and I was quite skeptical about this before seeing the results). We also use the Oppo 105 D to play high resolution audio files in the planetarium. All this said, we are completely sold on the abilities of this $1,300 player (in a million dollar system). I am ordering one for my own home theater.

Cool so you are using the audio analog from the OPPO? Is it the true 4K from JVC or their e-shift pseudo 4K ?

My humble Cinema
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