Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread - Page 382 - AVS Forum
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post #11431 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 03:55 PM
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Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread

^ It's just not feasible and extremely difficult to carry out DSP operations in a 1-bit bitstream. I don't even think recording studios (most of them) are doing it. Typically, audio is recorded in PCM, then DSP operations are applied, then convert to DSD for SACD mastering. I believe "Blue Coast Music" is recording direct to DSD, however.
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post #11432 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 04:04 PM
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Playing multi-channel DSD files
As an experiment, I have downloaded some sample .dsf files that are claimed to be multi-channel DSD recordings (something confirmed when I check the metadata settings). However, all my attempts to play these files on my Oppo DSD-105 have only generated a stereo signal. I have no such problem when playing multi-channel SACDs.

Does the Oppo not support multi-channel DSD files?

David


EDIT: I note that the input specs for the 105D on Oppo's UK website mention "up to 2ch/2.8224MHz/5.6448MHz DSD", so that seems to confirm that my 105 can't do multi-channel DSD. Is that likely to be added via a future firmware upgrade?

Last edited by haggis999; 08-29-2014 at 04:21 PM.
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post #11433 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 04:48 PM
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^ Read more carefully. That's the spec for feeding DSD into to Asynchronous USB DAC Input, which IS limited to stereo.

Playing media files from an attached or networked hard drive DOES support multi-channel, normal rate DSD.
--Bob
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post #11434 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 04:50 PM
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While on this DLNA and DSD topic again.....

I'm using Foobar with the UPNP and DSD plugins. Using a NAS drive with Twonkey. Having problems streaming DSD to Oppo 105. The Foobar UPNP controller shows it's streaming PCM when playing DSD files. Oppo receives and plays fine. Not sure how to tell Foobar to stream DSD instead of PCM. I've messed around with the settings in Preferences, but nothing seems to work as it still shows PCM.

Are there any instructions on how to configure Foobar to output DSD over network??? I'm stomped!

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post #11435 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 05:08 PM
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^ Can't you just tell it to NOT transcode the DSD stream? In the JRiver DLNA server section of the app, one can set an option to push audio files to a renderer "as is"; no transcoding.
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post #11436 of 11453 Old 08-29-2014, 05:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
^ Can't you just tell it to NOT transcode the DSD stream? In the JRiver DLNA server section of the app, one can set an option to push audio files to a renderer "as is"; no transcoding.
If it's there, I don't see it. I'm very confused by the menu system and terminology. I think my NAS is "the server", My Oppo is "the Renderer", and my Foobar is "the Controller" - am I right???

Most of my SACD's are ripped to ISO files. Foobar can open and play the contents fine. Historically, I've used HDMI to connect my PC to my Oppo, so DSD wasn't possible. Foobar converted to PCM and sent to Oppo. But now I want to try UPNP so I can have Oppo receive and play DSD without conversions to PCM.

When I play a file in the ISO, the Foobar controller shows PCM going to Oppo. Then I downloaded two DSD files (one dff and one dsf) and these don't play at all. No error message either. When I hit play in Foobar, it just says "Play Stopped". So somehow it's converting the individiual files in the ISO to PCM and sending them to Oppo, but not the dsf and dff.

Thanks for the help!

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Official OPPO BDP-105 Owner's Thread

^ Twonky is your DLNA Server running embedded on your NAS's microprocessor. I wish I could give you some effective solutions for your equipment, but I have never used Twonky or Foobar software. I've heard that minimserver running embedded on a NAS supports DSD. All I can tell you, as it relates to your Oppo player with regards to DSD is that the 105 can't parse DSD .iso files. It needs to see either .dsf or .dff container formats for dsd audio via your home network or attached usb storage. I don't recall whether it was you or some other user who mentioned using the hdmi input on their 105 to playback audio, but the hdmi input can't receive dsd audio, only LPCM formats.
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post #11438 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ Read more carefully. That's the spec for feeding DSD into to Asynchronous USB DAC Input, which IS limited to stereo.
Playing media files from an attached or networked hard drive DOES support multi-channel, normal rate DSD.
--Bob
On rechecking that Oppo specifications page, I now see that I was indeed reading the second line of the 'USB Audio:' description. However, that DSD spec was in bold text and looked like a standalone entry, so I never read the line above! It was also late at night here in the UK and my brain had already commenced its shutdown process...

That same late night syndrome may also explain why my initial attempts to use multi-channel DSD files always played in stereo. This morning, my multi-channel DSD files play in surround sound! I'm not aware of having done anything different from what I did last night, so it is rather puzzling.

BTW, where does Oppo document the BDP-105's DSD capabilities via local USB or network connections?
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post #11439 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 04:09 AM
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Originally Posted by haggis999 View Post
BTW, where does Oppo document the BDP-105's DSD capabilities via local USB or network connections?
David
I can personally confirm that I'm able to play multi-channel DSD64 (.dff and .dsf) streams via directly connected USB storage devices. And via UPnP and SMB network connections... The multi-channel DSD bit-stream is passed from my Oppo via HDMI to my Onkyo amplifier
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post #11440 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 04:47 AM
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I can personally confirm that I'm able to play multi-channel DSD64 (.dff and .dsf) streams via directly connected USB storage devices. And via UPnP and SMB network connections... The multi-channel DSD bit-stream is passed from my Oppo via HDMI to my Onkyo amplifier
As I said in my last post, I am also now able to play multi-channel DSD files. Why it didn't work for me last night remains a mystery.


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post #11441 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 04:48 AM
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Exclude centre channel when playing multi-channel music?
In a conventional AV configuration the TV is located mid way between the front left and right speakers, with the seating facing the TV. However, real world room layouts are always a compromise between many different conflicting requirements. In our case, the position of the two sofas in our L-shaped living room forces the TV to be placed at an angle just to the left of the left hand speaker. Try as I may, I can't find an alternative layout that doesn't create a worse problem.

The centre channel speaker also has to be in the same place as the TV or it creates a very odd effect. Surprisingly, this unusual arrangement of our front speakers does not seem to cause any irritation when watching movies. Even the first 20 mins of Saving Private Ryan doesn't generate any obvious examples of bullets travelling in anything other than straight lines!

Multi-channel music is another matter. Here you are purely focused on the sound and I have a feeling that some of my recordings don't sound quite right as a result of the misplacement of the centre speaker (I have not yet tried an experiment with this speaker in the correct place as the cables are not long enough).

I has just occurred to me that it might be better to exclude the centre channel when playing multi-channel music. Is there any way to configure the Oppo to achieve such a setup?

David
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I has just occurred to me that it might be better to exclude the centre channel when playing multi-channel music. Is there any way to configure the Oppo to achieve such a setup?

David
In short, no you can't configure the Oppo to do what you're suggesting when passing native bit-stream audio!

I do not propose you do this, as many 'music' surround sound sources are encoded with discrete/dedicated front centre channel information. Which would be lost...

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post #11443 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 05:34 AM
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In short, no you can't configure the Oppo to do what you're suggesting when passing native bit-stream audio!

I do not propose you do this, as many 'music' surround sound sources are encoded with discrete/dedicated front centre channel information. Which would be lost...
I was vaguely hoping that there might be some obscure configuration option that could somehow allocate the centre channel info to the left and right speakers and was forgetting that the direct DSD option prevents any messing with the signal.

Perhaps I should feed my centre channel speaker with longer cables and attach castors to its stand, so that I can move it when required. However, it might just be easier to use stereo DSD files or the stereo SACD layer of my hybrid disks. I've not spent enough time listening to the multi-channel layer of my small (but growing) classical SACD collection to know which option I prefer.

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When you are using DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion, either in the OPPO itself or by passing HDMI DSD to an AVR which offers that, one of the audio processing steps you lose is Speaker Distance compensation. That could account for what you are hearing.

Set SACD Output PCM, and recheck your speaker configuration settings including distance and levels. Check levels with tracks 43-48 from "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD. Then see if you still feel the Center is wrong.

While you are at it, double-check speaker wiring polarity to be sure you have all speakers the same. Screwing that up will introduce phase errors. You can test that with a calibration disc as well such as AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray.

Once you've got DSD via PCM dialed only THEN try DSD direct and see if it still sounds better after the loss of audio processing like speaker distance compensation.

For DSD direct you need a vanilla speaker setup -- at least 5.1 speakers set equidistant and matched in output. In addition, these all need to be Full Range speakers as you can't get Crossover processing either.
--Bob

Last edited by Bob Pariseau; 08-30-2014 at 06:58 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haggis999 View Post
I was vaguely hoping that there might be some obscure configuration option that could somehow allocate the centre channel info to the left and right speakers and was forgetting that the direct DSD option prevents any messing with the signal.

Perhaps I should feed my centre channel speaker with longer cables and attach castors to its stand, so that I can move it when required. However, it might just be easier to use stereo DSD files or the stereo SACD layer of my hybrid disks. I've not spent enough time listening to the multi-channel layer of my small (but growing) classical SACD collection to know which option I prefer.

David
There are some multichannel recordings that are only 4.0 or 4.1 and don't have a center channel. A lot of them are from the old quadraphonic days when surround meant only four channels. Some of those would be perfect for your situation.

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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
^ Twonky is your DLNA Server running embedded on your NAS's microprocessor. I wish I could give you some effective solutions for your equipment, but I have never used Twonky or Foobar software. I've heard that minimserver running embedded on a NAS supports DSD. All I can tell you, as it relates to your Oppo player with regards to DSD is that the 105 can't parse DSD .iso files. It needs to see either .dsf or .dff container formats for dsd audio via your home network or attached usb storage. I don't recall whether it was you or some other user who mentioned using the hdmi input on their 105 to playback audio, but the hdmi input can't receive dsd audio, only LPCM formats.
Dan, I truly appreciate your input. As I do more research, this just becomes more complex. The problem of streaming DSD could be in Twonkey server. I'm just frustrated and not sure if I want to continue with this venture. Researching and seeing what server software is compatible with what kind of NAS and files that need to be modified just seems like a lot of work. Each Google search just brings up other discussions that can be 100+ pages! Not sure if I'm ready to dedicate all the time and effort that's needed as this is much more complex than I imagined. And all this work to get DSD direct instead of DSD converted to PCM. I can't hear the difference anyways, but the OCD in me just wants it!

I can only hope the next version of the Oppo allows for stereo and multi-channel DSD via HDMI or USB directly from a computer. That would really simplify things.

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post #11447 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 01:53 PM
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So I bought a 1tb USB hard drive to attach to my 105. I was planning to use it for SACD files. I put the few files I had on it and it worked great. Just for fun I had the SACD (DSD) files on the PC hard drive made available on my network (hardwired to the 105) and they showed up and played perfect on the oppo. I thought one needed the USB connection to do this?
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post #11448 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 03:12 PM
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^ No, networked access to DSD media files also works -- from an SMB server, or (with suitable settings support in it) from a DLNA server.
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post #11449 of 11453 Old 08-30-2014, 04:18 PM
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When you are using DSD-Direct-to-Analog Conversion, either in the OPPO itself or by passing HDMI DSD to an AVR which offers that, one of the audio processing steps you lose is Speaker Distance compensation. That could account for what you are hearing.

Set SACD Output PCM, and recheck your speaker configuration settings including distance and levels. Check levels with tracks 43-48 from "Stay in Tune with PentaTone", SACD. Then see if you still feel the Center is wrong.

While you are at it, double-check speaker wiring polarity to be sure you have all speakers the same. Screwing that up will introduce phase errors. You can test that with a calibration disc as well such as AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray.

Once you've got DSD via PCM dialed only THEN try DSD direct and see if it still sounds better after the loss of audio processing like speaker distance compensation.

For DSD direct you need a vanilla speaker setup -- at least 5.1 speakers set equidistant and matched in output. In addition, these all need to be Full Range speakers as you can't get Crossover processing either.
--Bob
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info about the Pentatone test SACD, which I hadn't heard about before. I will order one asap and try out your suggestions.

My AV setup has 5 full-range speakers but no subwoofer (I already get plenty of bass for music purposes and as much bass as I need for movie sound effects).

David
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post #11450 of 11453 Old Yesterday, 03:22 AM
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Bob,

I set SACD output to PCM so the Oppo can provide speaker management for surround. It hadn't occurred to me that I could have a problem if I used DSD, because I took down my center channel. An Ayre C-5xeMP provides stereo DSD, but is two channel only.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by haggis999 View Post
Hi Bob,
Thanks for the info about the Pentatone test SACD, which I hadn't heard about before. I will order one asap and try out your suggestions.

My AV setup has 5 full-range speakers but no subwoofer (I already get plenty of bass for music purposes and as much bass as I need for movie sound effects).

David

Dear David,


I'll send you an email with some DSD test tones to play via USB or network drive too.

If you have no subwoofer, you may be better off forgoing DSD direct (whether direct from the SACD or from ripped DSD files) and either leave the Oppo to decode DSD to PCM 5.0 internally. This is because some SACD, including classical ones, use the .1 channel (although the .1 is not really a "point" one in SACD because it is full range when it is present and not an LFE-style channel needing a 10dB boost external to the player)


Also, as your centre channel is in an odd place relative to the fronts, if you end up ripping your SACD iso's, you could even extract the multichannel audio from the iso as 5.1 DSD and then transcode it using dBpoweramp or other program (Foobar, JRiver Media Centre) to 4.0 PCM flac to better match your speaker setup.


This is not purist, but then your speaker setup and listening environment is not purist either, so it's still possibly a good way for you to present ALL of the encoded audio distributed to the front mains and rear surrounds in an appropriate way without having to decode DSD to PCM 4.0 internally in the Oppo (Which would require you to keep turning off the centre speaker in the Oppo's speaker settings every time you want to listen to multichannel music, which is the other way to get the .1 and the centre channel mixed into the 4.0 appropriately.)


Regards,
Mark
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^ The OPPO players attenuate the SACD LFE channel by -10dB so that the same Sub level you set up for other content will also work when playing SACD content.

Thus the external boost is still used: +10dB if no Crossover happening, +15dB if a Crossover engaged.

This is true even when using SACD Output DSD to the Analog outputs, and also with SACD Output PCM on both Analog and HDMI.

If sending HDMI DSD to your AVR, then there can be no such helpful adjustment, so what happens is up to what your AVR does with HDMI DSD input.

As always with SACD, it is wise to test levels, including the LFE level, with a calibration track recorded as DSD, such as that PentaTone SACD, just to be sure you are hearing exactly what your setup is doing with actual DSD recordings.
--Bob
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SACD subwoofer channel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ The OPPO players attenuate the SACD LFE channel by -10dB so that the same Sub level you set up for other content will also work when playing SACD content.

Thus the external boost is still used: +10dB if no Crossover happening, +15dB if a Crossover engaged.

This is true even when using SACD Output DSD to the Analog outputs, and also with SACD Output PCM on both Analog and HDMI.

If sending HDMI DSD to your AVR, then there can be no such helpful adjustment, so what happens is up to what your AVR does with HDMI DSD input.

As always with SACD, it is wise to test levels, including the LFE level, with a calibration track recorded as DSD, such as that PentaTone SACD, just to be sure you are hearing exactly what your setup is doing with actual DSD recordings.
--Bob
That makes sense Bob, and fits with how I have my system set up for SACD and previously posted here.
It is at odds with how my previous player, the Arcam FMJ DV139 used to handle DSD - SACD encoding had no 10db attenuation so the 7.1 analogue bass channel input on the "matching" Arcam receiver played too quiet for SACD if setup correctly for DVD-Audio.


It still remains that on SACD, the ".1" channel is not an LFE channel but a full range channel capable of containing sound at any frequency.
How you handle bass in your system means with some discs you can simply discard the sub channel and lose nothing, (and probably the majority of SACD are 5.0 anyway).
The Scarlett book specification was not well thought out or written with regards to didactic bass handling for mastering, authoring or playback, so a lot of variation exists. Hence, different SACD's vary unfortunately.
-Some discs use a crossover filter for the 5 channels using a 120 Hz maximum frequency and DUPLICATE the "LFE" frequencies into the subwoofer channel. (Dolly Parton's Little Sparrow multichannel layer is unlistenable due to the extreme bass unless you turn off the sub, or do as I did which is to convert DSD to 5.1 flac and cut the subwoofer channel completely. At this point, the frequency plot spectrum in Audyssey of all channels combined becomes near identical to the stereo mix which confirms to me that it is duplicated bass)
-Some discs use a crossover filter for the 5 channels using a 120 Hz maximum frequency and EXTRACT "LFE" bass into the subwoofer channel, just as they would for DVD and Blu-ray.
-Some discs use a different crossover such as 80 Hz to EXTRACT bass into an "LFE" channel. The lack of a sub is less of a problem with these discs than with a 120 Hz filter.
-Some discs attenuate the subwoofer channel on the SACD by 10dB as would be done for LFE on a DVD / Blu-ray
-Some discs present the subwoofer channel non attenuated as per Scarlett Book


Hence, as much as I seem to prefer DSD when I trial it, I can see that there is no such thing as a universally correct DSD Direct because you cannot guarantee that the sound you hear is as the artist / engineer etc intended because much of the time, due to a "vague" specification open to interpretation, their intentions regarding how to engineer/ master / author a SACD got lost or jumbled and it can be anybody's guess how the bass is presented on the disc if there is any content in the .1 channel.
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