Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 34 - AVS Forum
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post #991 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 09:36 AM
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Comparing Jriver trial for mac streaming via oppo 105 vs Squeezebox touch connected coax into the oppo streaming using Logitech Media Server.
I noticed using Jriver there was some distortion /fuzziness on some of the tracks. At first i though it may have been to to a poor iTunes (128kb) old purchase. However this morning i noticed same distortion /fuzziness while listening to Speedway At Nazareth "Mark Knopfler Sailing To Philadelphia 6:23 848 m4a 2000 /Users/larry/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music/Music/Mark Knopfler/Sailing To Philadelphia/10 Speedway At Nazareth.m4a. " So compared same track using Squeezebox and LMS. No distortion at all. how can this be? Could there be a setting I'm missing somewhere? Thanks.
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post #992 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Process53 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

In addition, for folks using a pre-amp (which is most folks), Volume 100 is the correct default level for Analog output Volume.
Good to know but...here's my story. I run my 105 into a Parasound P7 and since day 1 (May 2013) I've had the 105 volume set to 100. Today I was reading some of these comments about different volume settings so I decided what the heck - let's experiment. Now I'm running the 105 at 50 and obviously running my P7 at a higher volume setting. And guess what - it sounds better. I'm not great at describing sound but things I noticed were less harshness in the upper range and tighter bass/drums. It's whatever right - it will be different for different people. The thing I keep learning over and over is to try different things with my system.

 

In addition to what others have said, your P7 has very high sensitivity. Its rated to produce 1V output for a mere 200mV input(Gain = 5). My power amplifier would hit rated power levels(400W) with a 1V output from the P7.

 

Since the Oppo is rated to produce 2V (RCA) for a volume setting of 100, then, it means the P7 would be forced to produce a 10V output as it has an input gain of 5.

 

BUT .... The P7 is not able to produce a 10V output, since its rated maximum voltage output is 8V, so yes, you'd be clipping seriously running the Oppo at default volume of 100 into the P7... let alone no power amp out there would accept an 8V input w/o destroying speakers and irritating the neighbors to say the least.

 

Your audio observations were right on...the sound your were hearing was distorted most of the time.

 

If we knew, the make and model of your power-amp(specifically its input sensitivity), then we could easily calculate the optimum volume setting from the Oppo to make both the P7 and your power amp happy. Are you using RCA or XLR outs from the Oppo?


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #993 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 11:40 AM
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^ I am using the RCA outs from the OPPO. I connect the P7 RCA outs to 3 Arcam Alpha 8P stereo power amps.

The 8P:
Specifications :
Continuous Power Output, per channel
Both channels, 8ohms.....................50 Watts (20Hz-20kHz)
Single channel, 8ohms, 1kHz...........60 Watts
Single channel, 4ohms, 1kHz...........100 Watts
Peak current rating..........................+/-12A
Distortion....................................... 0.01% (8 ohms, 80% rated power, 1kHz)

Line and Tape Inputs
Frequency response.......................+/-0.5dB 10Hz-20kHz
Noise (CCIR) ref: rated output..........-96dB
Input sensitivity...............................540mV
Input impedance.............................15k Ohms

Power consumption........................400VA (maximum)
Dimensions(w x d x h)....................43 x 30.5 x 8.5 cm
Weight...........................................5 kg

Oppo BDP-105 Player
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Paradigm Studio ADP-470 v.3 x 2 Speakers
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post #994 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Process53 View Post

Good to know but...here's my story. I run my 105 into a Parasound P7 and since day 1 (May 2013) I've had the 105 volume set to 100. Today I was reading some of these comments about different volume settings so I decided what the heck - let's experiment. Now I'm running the 105 at 50 and obviously running my P7 at a higher volume setting. And guess what - it sounds better. I'm not great at describing sound but things I noticed were less harshness in the upper range and tighter bass/drums. It's whatever right - it will be different for different people. The thing I keep learning over and over is to try different things with my system.

Good to hear that you're hearing an improvement.
That's what it's all about right?

Trust me, I'm no expert but I know that my system sounds better at the less than max volume on the Oppo.
The P7 is a very nice pre-amp and a steal at $2k.

EDIT: Stepped away finishing my post I see the updates now. Interesting.

FWIW, here are the ratings for the D2 & my amps:
D2
rated input 2.0 Vrms
Max input 5.3 Vrms
XLR
rated output 2.0 Vrms
Max output 12.6 Vrms

XPA-1L input sensitivity
for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1800 mV

 

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post #995 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 12:19 PM
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^ Yeah I guess that's the trouble with not being an expert - you have to get lucky enough to stumble upon the information that you need (but didn't know that you needed).

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post #996 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 12:29 PM
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^^^^
I think the key is an open mind and like you did, experiment.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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post #997 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 01:02 PM
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Currently have the 103 with the DHC80.3 and it does very well on multichannel music. I was planning to get a 2 channel preamp with HT bypass and the 105 as DAC/source but now SACD and other multichannel is taking more precedence. So how good is the 105/p7 combo or are there other suggestions?

Main Kef: Reference 205/2 & 202/2c, Surrounds: Kef XQ40, Velodyne Optimum 12, Integra DHC 80.3, Oppo BDP-103, Bryston 4Bsst2, Parasound Halo A31. Second B&W: 685 (3), CCM618, Def Tech Powerfield 1500, Onkyo TX-NR1008, DBP 2010, Samsung BD-C7900, Zone 2 Klipsch AW650. Sitting still CCM616, Kef...
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post #998 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Process53 View Post

^ I am using the RCA outs from the OPPO. I connect the P7 RCA outs to 3 Arcam Alpha 8P stereo power amps.

The 8P:
Specifications :
Continuous Power Output, per channel
Both channels, 8ohms.....................50 Watts (20Hz-20kHz)
Single channel, 8ohms, 1kHz...........60 Watts
Single channel, 4ohms, 1kHz...........100 Watts
Peak current rating..........................+/-12A
Distortion....................................... 0.01% (8 ohms, 80% rated power, 1kHz)

Line and Tape Inputs
Frequency response.......................+/-0.5dB 10Hz-20kHz
Noise (CCIR) ref: rated output..........-96dB
Input sensitivity...............................540mV
Input impedance.............................15k Ohms

Power consumption........................400VA (maximum)
Dimensions(w x d x h)....................43 x 30.5 x 8.5 cm
Weight...........................................5 kg

Sorry for the delay but I'm in the middle of unpacking my stuff after a move to be closer to work on Saturday. Its a mess right now with boxes upon boxes everywhere I can see .... but driving 4 hours a day(to and from work) for the past 2 months has driven me batty so I had to move and this was the best weekend to do it.

 

 

Anyways, in regards to your specs, lets start with the 8P power amp and work backwards...

 

The 8P is rated to produce 50W for an input of 540mV, so we must NOT exceed that spec or else we run the risk of clipping the amplifier...

 

So, this means that the P7 must NOT produce an output voltage greater than 540mV into the 8P.

 

Since the P7 has a gain of 5 (or 14dB as stated by the manufacturer), its input must not exceed 540mV / 5 = 108mV.

 

So the Oppo that feeds into the P7 must not output a voltage greater than 108mV or else it will overdrive the power amp.

 

The rated maximum output of the Oppo RCA is 2.1V for a volume setting of 100. Now you have 2 options.

 

 

Option 1 ... Leave volume level at default 100.

 

Buy audiophile in-line PASSIVE audio attenuators that you insert on the Oppo RCA outputs. They must have an attenuation factor of 20 * LOG (2.1V / 0.108V) = 26dB.

 

I know Rothwell sells superb 10dB and 20dB attenuation pads, but not sure about 25dB or even 30dB. If you could get a 25dB or 30dB, that would be best.

 

 

Option 2 ... Adjust Oppo volume level accordingly

 

Since we need a 26dB reduction in gain from the Oppo to prevent clipping your amp and since each volume click represents 0.5dB reduction, this means you will have to make 26 dB / 0.5 dB  = 52 volume clicks (from default) to produce a max output level of 108mV at  the Oppo.

 

Dang ...you are one heck of a good guesser for you guessed it right on buy reducing the Oppo volume level to 50!!!

 

So your ears heard exactly what the math says to do. Reduce volume level to (100 - 52 = 48) if you want to be precise or simply leave it  at 50 and enjoy... Lucky bastard:D!

 

Happy listening ....

 

- David

 

 

PS

 

Should you change to another BD player and/or Pre-amp and/or Power amp, then of course the calculus changes. Use your ears to find the optimal settings from the Oppo since they seem to be doing such a darn good job of it already:).

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How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #999 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 02:05 PM
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^ That is terrific David. Thank you. Option 2 looks like the one for me.

Doug

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post #1000 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Milt99 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Process53 View Post

Good to know but...here's my story. I run my 105 into a Parasound P7 and since day 1 (May 2013) I've had the 105 volume set to 100. Today I was reading some of these comments about different volume settings so I decided what the heck - let's experiment. Now I'm running the 105 at 50 and obviously running my P7 at a higher volume setting. And guess what - it sounds better. I'm not great at describing sound but things I noticed were less harshness in the upper range and tighter bass/drums. It's whatever right - it will be different for different people. The thing I keep learning over and over is to try different things with my system.

Good to hear that you're hearing an improvement.
That's what it's all about right?

Trust me, I'm no expert but I know that my system sounds better at the less than max volume on the Oppo.
The P7 is a very nice pre-amp and a steal at $2k.

EDIT: Stepped away finishing my post I see the updates now. Interesting.

FWIW, here are the ratings for the D2 & my amps:
D2
rated input 2.0 Vrms
Max input 5.3 Vrms
XLR
rated output 2.0 Vrms
Max output 12.6 Vrms

XPA-1L input sensitivity
for rated power; 8 Ohm load): 1800 mV

Milt:

 

I also have the D2v as my pre-pro, so your settings shouldn't be too far off from the norm. So like Doug's setup above, we should start at the power amp end.

 

The Emotiva is rated to produce full power with a 1.8V input (1800mV). So the D2 must be forced to output 1.8V max to prevent saturating the XPA amplifier. (Note that I'm not taking into account your amplifier's headroom, which is sizeable hence might need 2V or more).....But headroom issues aside....

 

The D2 seems to have a gain of 1 between its RCA inputs and outputs (2V in and 2V out), so you only have to set the Oppo to produce a max output of 1.8Vrms instead of the default 2.1Vrms on its RCA outputs or a gain reduction of 20 * LOG (2.1V / 1.8V) = 1.3dB or about 3 volume clicks since each click represents a volume change of 0.5dB . I'd change the default volume setting from 100 to 97.

 

Hope this helps...

 

David


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #1001 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 02:40 PM
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Process 53,
-26dB attenuation of Analog output in the 105 would be an OPPO Volume setting of 48 (i.e., 52 steps below 100), not 52.

Also, if you still have any speaker volume trims set to positive values then lower all of them the same amount so that the biggest, positive trim is reduced to 0dB, and all the other trims are negative. Normally these small volume trims wouldn't be enough to matter, but since you are limited by the capability of your power amp -- and to such a degree that you are actually HEARING that -- it's probably wise to be precise here.

Be sure to re-check your resulting speaker levels balance with an SPL meter and a calibration disc -- e.g., the LPCM test tracks from AIX, Audio Calibration, Blu-ray, or the test tracks on Spears & Munsil, V2, Blu-ray. In particular you want to make sure your Subwoofer level is correct after all this tweaking.
--Bob

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post #1002 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 02:57 PM
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Milt & David,
The D2v also has its own input sensitivity adjustment for each Analog input, as well as a graphic display which you can use to make sure the Analog input voltage is not clipping that D2v input. Note that to see that, you must (perhaps temporarily) set that Analog input to ANALOG-DSP. Adjust to get 1 colored mark at the top of the level bar for the loudest passages, but not 2 colored marks.

Basically, as far as the D2v is concerned, you can leave the 105 at output Volume 100 (with OPPO volume trims set to 0dB or below).

Now adjusting to reduce the D2v output to your power amp frankly is more a function of what volume setting you like to use when listening, and the dynamic range of the content you are playing. Odds are you have way more than 1.3dB variation in the Main Volume level you use in the D2v when playing different types of content, not to mention the different recording levels of that content.

My point being, that unless you like to leave the D2v cranked WAY up all the time, the odds are you do NOT need to adjust the input level from the OPPO, because the D2v can handle the Volume 100 input level, and the resulting output to your power amp is likely going to be under max rated output from the D2v (and thus also under max rated input to the power amp) simply due to the type of content you are playing and the volume choice you make in the D2v.

i.e., the critical thing to check is that you are not clipping the INPUT of the D2v. Don't worry about reducing the output to your power amp, unless you have a more substantial limitation in what that amp can handle as in Process53's case.

If you DO like to play at painfully high volume levels, then that's a different story, and you may want to go through this exercise, but again, the variation in recorded content levels is likely to be far greater than just 1.3dB.
--Bob

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post #1003 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Process 53,
-26dB attenuation of Analog output in the 105 would be an OPPO Volume setting of 48 (i.e., 52 steps below 100), not 52.


--Bob

Correct Bob, I noticed my error within 5-10 minutes of posting it and corrected my post above to the same value as well.


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #1004 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 03:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Milt & David,
The D2v also has its own input sensitivity adjustment for each Analog input, as well as a graphic display which you can use to make sure the Analog input voltage is not clipping that D2v input. Note that to see that, you must (perhaps temporarily) set that Analog input to ANALOG-DSP. Adjust to get 1 colored mark at the top of the level bar for the loudest passages, but not 2 colored marks.

Basically, as far as the D2v is concerned, you can leave the 105 at output Volume 100 (with OPPO volume trims set to 0dB or below).

Now adjusting to reduce the D2v output to your power amp frankly is more a function of what volume setting you like to use when listening, and the dynamic range of the content you are playing. Odds are you have way more than 1.3dB variation in the Main Volume level you use in the D2v when playing different types of content, not to mention the different recording levels of that content.

My point being, that unless you like to leave the D2v cranked WAY up all the time, the odds are you do NOT need to adjust the input level from the OPPO, because the D2v can handle the Volume 100 input level, and the resulting output to your power amp is likely going to be under max rated output from the D2v (and thus also under max rated input to the power amp) simply due to the type of content you are playing and the volume choice you make in the D2v.

i.e., the critical thing to check is that you are not clipping the INPUT of the D2v. Don't worry about reducing the output to your power amp, unless you have a more substantial limitation in what that amp can handle as in Process53's case.

If you DO like to play at painfully high volume levels, then that's a different story, and you may want to go through this exercise, but again, the variation in recorded content levels is likely to be far greater than just 1.3dB.
--Bob

 

Yes ... I had forgotten about the D2v's ability to adjust its sensitivity. As you've said, leaving the Oppo at the default 100 level and then adjusting the D2v sensitivity to prevent amplifier clipping is best in this case.

 

In my case, I'd get a test disk with sine waves recorded at reference levels (0dB) and measure the output voltage of the D2v with a meter (while adjusting the input sensitivity) until I get 1.8Vrms output from the D2v.


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #1005 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Process 53,
-26dB attenuation of Analog output in the 105 would be an OPPO Volume setting of 48 (i.e., 52 steps below 100), not 52.

Also, if you still have any speaker volume trims set to positive values then lower all of them the same amount so that the biggest, positive trim is reduced to 0dB, and all the other trims are negative. Normally these small volume trims wouldn't be enough to matter, but since you are limited by the capability of your power amp -- and to such a degree that you are actually HEARING that -- it's probably wise to be precise here.

Be sure to re-check your resulting speaker levels balance with an SPL meter and a calibration disc -- e.g., the LPCM test tracks from AIX, Audio Calibration, Blu-ray, or the test tracks on Spears & Munsil, V2, Blu-ray. In particular you want to make sure your Subwoofer level is correct after all this tweaking.
--Bob
Gotcha. Thanks.

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post #1006 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 05:13 PM
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Thanks for the advice.
D2
rated input 2.0 Vrms
Max input 5.3 Vrms
XLR
rated output 2.0 Vrms
Max output 12.6 Vrms
Here are the comparable specs for my amps.
Single channel, 8ohms, 1kHz...........250 watts
Single channel, 4ohms, 1kHz...........500 watts
Input Sensitivity....................1800 mV
Gain: 29 dB
250 watts @ 8 ohm (0.1% THD)
500 watts @ 4 ohm (0.1% THD)
35 watts @ 8 ohm; Class A operation

Again, I'm using the XLR analog ins and outs on the D2 which have a higher output than the RCAs.

I think Bob is right in that I do, many times, listen at elevated volumes, like -6.0db on the D2 display but unless I'm way off that isn't that high.
I haven't calibrated via ARC yet which I should do.

I don't think I'm over-driving the D2 or the amps at Oppo 100 volume as I'm not hearing what experience has taught me to be clipping.
My Revels have a nominal impedance of 6ohms and while my amps are not monsters they're not anemic either.

I will check the Analog-DSP meter settings to see what is going on there.
Thanks for the tip.
It's been a loooong time since I read the D2 manual smile.gif

I may be off-based here, but what seems to be occurring to me is that the pre-amp\volume stage\control in the D2 is "cleaner" or "better" than in the Oppo.
I'm an able to play the system at somewhat higher levels by replacing the upper end of the gain of the Oppo using the gain in the D2.

 

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post #1007 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 06:39 PM
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Going direct won't work for me as the family powers the system when I am not there and I would be worried that they forget to lower the volume! Does the volume change when you power down the Oppo?
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post #1008 of 1659 Old 09-02-2013, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
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Going direct won't work for me as the family powers the system when I am not there and I would be worried that they forget to lower the volume! Does the volume change when you power down the Oppo?
No. Only when you do a factory reset.
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post #1009 of 1659 Old 09-03-2013, 01:47 PM
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A friend brought over his ModWright 5400ES to compare with my Sony 5400ES and Oppo 105. The ModWright and Oppo both used analog inputs to my Cary Cinema 11a that are set to bypass; the Sony used both analog and HDMI inputs. A Proceed HPA 3 amp drives a pair of KEF Reference 107/2s. My judgement, and I think the ModWright's owner might agree, the Oppo sounded best, with great detail and a well presented soundstage. The Sony sounded a bit harsh in the high end, but both the ModWright and Cary processing via HDMI cured that, albeit at the expense of some loss of detail. We listened to a variety of music, baroque, jazz, and large orchestral classical. Unfortunately, the power switch of my Thorens TD 124 wouldn't operate, so we were denied a comparison with high quality vinyl, but my previous experience is that the same recording on vinyl and SACD played on the 105 sound remarkably similar. The 105 with its SOTA video processing is tough competition!

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post #1010 of 1659 Old 09-03-2013, 04:28 PM
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Yeah, try and play a movie on your Thorens tongue.gif

Thanks for the comparo.

 

It ain't ignorance causes so much trouble; it's folks knowing so much that ain't so

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post #1011 of 1659 Old 09-03-2013, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke View Post

Sorry for the delay but I'm in the middle of unpacking my stuff after a move to be closer to work on Saturday. Its a mess right now with boxes upon boxes everywhere I can see .... but driving 4 hours a day(to and from work) for the past 2 months has driven me batty so I had to move and this was the best weekend to do it.


Anyways, in regards to your specs, lets start with the 8P power amp and work backwards...

The 8P is rated to produce 50W for an input of 540mV, so we must NOT exceed that spec or else we run the risk of clipping the amplifier...

So, this means that the P7 must NOT produce an output voltage greater than 540mV into the 8P.

Since the P7 has a gain of 5 (or 14dB as stated by the manufacturer), its input must not exceed 540mV / 5 = 108mV.

So the Oppo that feeds into the P7 must not output a voltage greater than 108mV or else it will overdrive the power amp.

The rated maximum output of the Oppo RCA is 2.1V for a volume setting of 100. Now you have 2 options.


Option 1 ... Leave volume level at default 100.

Buy audiophile in-line PASSIVE audio attenuators that you insert on the Oppo RCA outputs. They must have an attenuation factor of 20 * LOG (2.1V / 0.108V) = 26dB.

I know Rothwell sells superb 10dB and 20dB attenuation pads, but not sure about 25dB or even 30dB. If you could get a 25dB or 30dB, that would be best.


Option 2 ... Adjust Oppo volume level accordingly

Since we need a 26dB reduction in gain from the Oppo to prevent clipping your amp and since each volume click represents 0.5dB reduction, this means you will have to make 26 dB / 0.5 dB  = 52 volume clicks (from default) to produce a max output level of 108mV at  the Oppo.

Dang ...you are one heck of a good guesser for you guessed it right on buy reducing the Oppo volume level to 50!!!

So your ears heard exactly what the math says to do. Reduce volume level to (100 - 52 = 48) if you want to be precise or simply leave it  at 50 and enjoy... Lucky bastard:D !

Happy listening ....

- David


PS

Should you change to another BD player and/or Pre-amp and/or Power amp, then of course the calculus changes. Use your ears to find the optimal settings from the Oppo since they seem to be doing such a darn good job of it already:) .

David: I can not thank you enough for this analysis. I have the 105 volume set at 48 and I am hearing so much more music it is hard for me to believe that I am losing any of the data between the disc and my speakers. It sounds so good. A true game changer.

Oppo BDP-105 Player
Musical Paradise MP-301 MK3 Tube Amp x 3
Paradigm Studio 60 v.2 x 3 Speakers
Paradigm Studio ADP-470 v.3 x 2 Speakers
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post #1012 of 1659 Old 09-03-2013, 11:00 PM
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^ Here's the puzzlement though. You said that when you lowered the output from the OPPO you ALSO raised the Volume in you pre-amp to compensate. I.e., you are still listening at the same absolute output level from your speakers.

But THAT means your pre-amp is sending the same voltage levels to your power amps as before! Right? If the speakers are producing the same absolute output sound level, then their power amp MUST be receiving the same voltage input level.

I.e., if you really were clipping the power amps originally, you should STILL be doing so, because the increased Volume setting in the pre-amp means it is feeding the same voltage levels to the power amps despite the lowered output from the OPPO.



Now, it may be that you have NOT raised the pre-amp volume to fully compensate. But if you've raised it AT ALL, that carefully calculated -26dB math still gets mixed up.

I'm wondering whether the real problem here is that you were actually clipping the INPUTS to the pre-amp (which is the more normal situation folks need to worry about). If that's true, then you could probably accomplish the same improvement with a much smaller attenuation of output from the OPPO -- and lower Volume in the pre-amp as well of course to maintain the same absolute level of output from the speakers.

If instead, you are now listening at a LOWER absolute speaker output level, and hearing better quality audio, then that might very well be due to clipping the power amps earlier when you were playing stuff louder. But if so, you should have been able to accomplish the SAME THING simply by lowering Volume in the pre-amp!



Another possibility here is that your pre-amp has a poorly implemented Volume control. By lowering output from the OPPO, you get to set the pre-amp to a higher Volume setting so that the negative impact of its Volume control implementation is not heard. (Volume is implemented as an attenuation of the max output level, so the higher the Volume is set the less it is actually doing to the output signal.)
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
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post #1013 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 12:31 AM
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Digital-vs-Analog-volume-control.pdf 1,107k .pdf file Quote:
Originally Posted by Process53 View Post
 
David: I can not thank you enough for this analysis. I have the 105 volume set at 48 and I am hearing so much more music it is hard for me to believe that I am losing any of the data between the disc and my speakers. It sounds so good. A true game changer.

 

You are welcome and glad to hear you're hearing much more detail into your music:) ! .... but I have to make a very important correction to your innocent statement:

 

You are NOT losing data (or bits) by adjusting the Oppo volume control. I have attached a presentation Oppo made comparing Digital with Analog volume controls. In summary, as long the noise floor of the 32-bit ESS DAC (-135dB in this case) is lower than the analog components in its path, you will not loose any data or resolution by lowering the volume.

 

The ESS DAC takes the 16-bit data of the CD or 24-bit data from an SACD and converts it to 32-bit data internally. This gives it lots of noise headroom (or noise gain) before it hits the noise floor within the dac and of the analog electronics surrounding the dac.

 

For example, say you have 24-bit data going into the DAC which is converted to 32-bit data (via an internal dsp process), those extra 8-bits buy you 20 * LOG( 2^8) = 48dB of headroom before you start loosing bits. Since each volume click is 0.5dB, then you'd have to click down 48 / 0.5 = 96 clicks before you begin to loosing the least significant bit of the original 24-bit data.

 

IOW, by the time you reach volume level of 4, that's when you begin loosing bits but at that level, the signal is so small and still hirez at 23-bits that either its buried under the noise levels of the analog op-amps or other supporting analog circuitry that you won't hear or miss that 1-bit of loss buried in noise levels of -135dB for the ESS dac. Other noise sources from the pre-amp or amp will come into play long before you reach the limits of the ESS dac itself.

 

With 16-bit data(CD/ MP3), you even have an extra 16-bit of noise gain of  20 * LOG (2^16) = 96dB. You'd  be exceeding the capabilities of the Oppo volume control as it can only reduce volume levels by a maximum of 50dB (100 volume steps at 0.5dB / step).

 

If you happen to have an amp/pre-amp with combined noise levels lower than -135dB(:eek:!!!) and your surrounding are just as quiet(yeah right!), it'd really hurt your head to strain listening for signals at such low levels. Blood rushing through your ears is noisier than that I believe...and it you have the mildest case of  tinnitus(ringing within the ears) like I do, all best are off.

 

Sorry for the techno geek speak but I wanted to dispel the notion that the Oppo 105 volume controls is 'lossy' by dropping bits. This issue has been raised several times in the 95/105 threads worrying people for nothing. If you had a 16-bit dac and you fed it 16-bit data, yes, you'd start losing bits right away at the first volume reduction. Ditto for 24-bit data fed into a 24-bit dac but to a lesser degree.

 

But 16/24-bit data into a 32-bit dac? Nope, nope and nope. Data isn't lost when volume is reduced for the reason's I've outlined above and also as presented in the attached presentation. All the above also pertains to the Oppo 95 since it uses the same 32-bit ESS dac.

 

Hope this helps ....

 

David


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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post #1014 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

No. Only when you do a factory reset.

Oh good, how about when you turn it off does it default to 100 or the last volume you had when turned off? The best would be default to 0
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post #1015 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 06:33 AM
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^^ So, David, was changing the 105 volume for Process53 a placebo effect if he wasn't losing any of his signal in the first place? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if moving the 105 volume up/down 40-50 steps while counter-correcting for loss/gain of volume in his preamp actually produces a higher fidelity audio signal....(Only if the 105 signal was over-driving his preamp inputs and raising his noise floor ??)....Bob's statements above yours are adding to my bewilderment....yes, I know the highest priority is individual musical nirvana/enjoyment with one's audio system, but the technical details/theory of how a person got to that state are more intriguing to me.....I've grown to realize that placebo in this hobby can oftentimes be a very powerful tool to many audioholics through a perceived music enhancement/enjoyment....and I'm not saying that's a bad thing either.....if Process53 "perceived" he was losing data before his volume adjustments, but was proven by you that he wasn't, what did he "technically" gain by these adjustments??
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post #1016 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by wse View Post

Oh good, how about when you turn it off does it default to 100 or the last volume you had when turned off? The best would be default to 0
No, the last volume you had selected is saved in memory. It doesn't change when you turn off the unit. In fact, 99% of the user settings don't change when you turn off the unit. The only one I know of that does is the input source selection.
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post #1017 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 07:41 AM
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it have the answer to my own questions very soon after some good burn in time. Thanks anyhow. P5zQBq
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post #1018 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 08:48 AM
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What power cord are you using with your 105? Any suggestions?

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
Ayre C-5xeMP & Oppo BDP-105
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post #1019 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gelly View Post

Comparing Jriver trial for mac streaming via oppo 105 vs Squeezebox touch connected coax into the oppo streaming using Logitech Media Server.
I noticed using Jriver there was some distortion /fuzziness on some of the tracks. At first i though it may have been to to a poor iTunes (128kb) old purchase. However this morning i noticed same distortion /fuzziness while listening to Speedway At Nazareth "Mark Knopfler Sailing To Philadelphia 6:23 848 m4a 2000 /Users/larry/Music/iTunes/iTunes Music/Music/Mark Knopfler/Sailing To Philadelphia/10 Speedway At Nazareth.m4a. " So compared same track using Squeezebox and LMS. No distortion at all. how can this be? Could there be a setting I'm missing somewhere? Thanks.

I'm not an apple person, but I'm assuming JRiver works the same on a mac as it does for a regular pc. That said, there's a bit of a learning curve as I found out when I got the program. At first I noticed sub-par SQ of my lossless & hi-res flacs streaming to my 105 (via ethernet). After clicking on the multitude of options, I discovered it was transcoding them to mp3 -- possibly a default setting, I dunno. Anyway, after setting to stream my music "as source" all was well. JRiver, if set up properly, definitely does not degrade the sound quality.
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post #1020 of 1659 Old 09-04-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post

^^ So, David, was changing the 105 volume for Process53 a placebo effect if he wasn't losing any of his signal in the first place? I'm having a hard time trying to figure out if moving the 105 volume up/down 40-50 steps while counter-correcting for loss/gain of volume in his preamp actually produces a higher fidelity audio signal....(Only if the 105 signal was over-driving his preamp inputs and raising his noise floor ??)....Bob's statements above yours are adding to my bewilderment....yes, I know the highest priority is individual musical nirvana/enjoyment with one's audio system, but the technical details/theory of how a person got to that state are more intriguing to me.....I've grown to realize that placebo in this hobby can oftentimes be a very powerful tool to many audioholics through a perceived music enhancement/enjoyment....and I'm not saying that's a bad thing either.....if Process53 "perceived" he was losing data before his volume adjustments, but was proven by you that he wasn't, what did he "technically" gain by these adjustments??

 

Good questions Dan ...i believe Bob's answer's above seem to be the best ones for your questions. Process53 may have reduce the Oppo to 50 (or by 25dB) but not raise the pre-amp volume by the same amount. He probably had raised it to a number well below 25dB and gotten a clean undistorted signal as a result.

 

Also Process53 didn't preceive loss of data before the volume adjustments. He was hearing distorted sound at the Oppo volume of 100. He perceived the 'loss' ( albeit incorrectly) after reducing the volume to 50,hence my next post to clear things up.

 

 

- David


How to phase match subwoofers to the mains speakers: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post19542630
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