Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 54 - AVS Forum
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post #1591 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 08:56 AM
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I don't know who would have shot down the notion that a cd rip from hard drive sounds better than spinning a disc, the rips all sound better to me. But then again I like upsampling and what Audirvana+ does to the music.
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post #1592 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
There is a known bug in the current firmware which only affects the 103D and 105D. Do *NOT* use Source Direct and RGB Video Level with those until this is fixed as the player incorrectly outputs RGB PC Level when that combo is selected.

There is no problem using RGB Video Level even in these two players when an explicit Resolution choice (e.g., 1080p) is selected. And yes, RGB Video Level passes both Blacker than Black and Peak White pixel values without problem.

Note that the choice of RGB Video Level vs. PC Level needs to be selected MANUALLY at both ends of the cable. The flavor of RGB being used is NOT something an HDMI handshake can establish automatically.

(Some AVRs / Displays will clip the Blacker than Black and Peak White values themselves, but the player is transmitting them correctly.)
--Bob
Smarty and Bob,

Thanks for the info. I don't have S&M, I have the DVE blu ray, not sure if it goes into any detail about color space. My projector (Samsung A900) should be able to handle color spaces correctly. I'll fiddle with it this weekend, just for giggles.

Omar
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post #1593 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
Testing this new theory about 720p SOUNDING better than 1080p(??).
My unit is a 105D and not a 105, but from my testing done just now, I can hear no difference between the two resolutions.

(BDP-105D 2 CH dedicated analog output wired directly to and Emotiva XPA-3 into 2 JBL LC2 speakers, DSD direct (no bass management))
It's an odd thing, I find 720 does sound a bit better. I also blind tested two audio loving friends without telling them anything about what I was doing or what they were "supposed" to hear, and the heard an improvement with 720, as well.

Omar
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post #1594 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post
I don't know who would have shot down the notion that a cd rip from hard drive sounds better than spinning a disc, the rips all sound better to me. But then again I like upsampling and what Audirvana+ does to the music.
Hey Ed,

If it were shot down, I'd imagine the issue came down to transport. A stellar CD player might actually sound better than playing back via a mediocre hardware/software setup. For me, JRiver sounds nowhere near as good as Audirvana, A+ also outshines the demo of Amara I tried. Also, someone may have been using an inferior quality rip. The variables are endless. But all else being equal, a lossless rip should spank even the best CD transports.

Omar
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post #1595 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 09:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OmarF View Post
It's an odd thing, I find 720 does sound a bit better. I also blind tested two audio loving friends without telling them anything about what I was doing or what they were "supposed" to hear, and the heard an improvement with 720, as well.

Omar
I'm getting a feeling of dejavu here, but I think we may have discussed this before?
I think for whatever reason, the difference must lie in your setup and not specifically to the player.
That is unless you player is broken.

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post #1596 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ The HDMI Jitter discussion is a total Red Herring. If changing between 1080p and 720P resolution results in an audible change on the Analog outputs when the HDMI cabling is not even CONNECTED then there is, of course, no TDMS being generated. No HDMI output. And thus no possibility of HDMI Jitter. Besides, Jitter is an issue at the RECEIVING end -- not at the TRANSMITTING end.

If confirmed -- and we are far from that point -- any such result on the Analog outputs would represent a bug.

If there's a bug affecting the digital audio fed to the DACs for the Analog outputs, then of course that has to be fixed before you even consider what's happening on HDMI. I.e., it's the same, LPCM, digital audio stream that's being sent to the HDMI. If it is broken, then it would be broken for all outputs.

Any theory for how this might happen on the Analog outputs would have to account for the fact that it doesn't show up in bench testing of those outputs. Any internal testing OPPO has done aside, there are detailed bench test results of the Analog outputs posted in published reviews of the 105. It's of course possible those bench tests weren't testing the right thing, but any theory of what's going on here would have to account for the fact that no problem has been found on the Analog outputs, with 1080p set, in the tests that WERE done.
--Bob
What specific testing has Oppo done concerning this issue?

I don't think there is a test that will show anything concerning the analog outputs other than listening. And the change is one that I agree not everyone will hear. I think everyone can hear it, but it does depend on the testing method and what one is listening for.

It would be very easy for someone to switch back in forth and not hear anything depending on what they are listening for, or their mood, or test method. I have no doubt that anyone could hear it on my system, but for some it might first take me pointing out the differences and then they would be able to reliably to tell the difference in any blind test.

Does Oppo dispute that 720P has less inherent jitter than 1080P? This certainly is my explanation of why 720P sounds better over HDMI than 1080P. This should be easily measurable and the engineering theory provided behind it provided by Charles Hansen makes sense.

It seems the Red Herring is saying that the analog outputs could not be changed by this and not disputing what can be measured (jitter) and explained theoretically through the math concerning the HDMI output. After this is established (HDMI jitter for 720P vs 1080P), then the translation of this effect to the analog outputs can be discussed.

I had tested every single setup menu item for its effect on sound except for 3D HDMI blanking. I tested this the last few days and the sound is better with HDMI 2 set to blank. I heard this difference over the coax out with HDMI 1 connected to the display. These being the only connections to the player and this was with no 3D disc playing.

Perhaps I could post my config file for people to try out? I imagine most would find an improvement in sound with it as all these things add up. Some items might have to be changed, but I have no doubt my config file is fully optimized for sound.

Last edited by kellybob; 07-09-2014 at 10:25 PM.
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post #1597 of 1701 Old 07-09-2014, 10:20 PM
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My experience witth that kind of strange differences is on analog outputs, I don't know about the HDMI or other digital outs, with the cambridge player, is that many of the menu settings will have an effect to the sound, to some extent.
Most obvious is RGB video vs others, any speaker management changes (with a stereo source, and only 2 speakers in my setup) especially downmix modes on either RCA outputs do weird things (as if when I set to 7.1 with a stereo source, it tried to convert it to some 7.1 prologic). Changing subwoofer on or off on stereo downmix affects sound too.

I know it's not an Oppo player, but the merdiatek mainboard and the firmware are strictly the same (except for the Front/Left or stereo downmix setting for dedicated output, it's not there at all). My guess is something weird is going on in the mediatek board, that make some settings affect the resulting sound, even before it reaches the audio circuitry.

For the record, my setup is as simple as it could be, a passive pre amp, to a professional Ram Audio power amp. No AVR.
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post #1598 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
I'm getting a feeling of dejavu here, but I think we may have discussed this before?
I think for whatever reason, the difference must lie in your setup and not specifically to the player.
That is unless you player is broken.
I think we had a banter about using the OPPO as a preamp. I'm just about ready to tell you, you were right. I need to revalidate one more time before making it conclusive, but for the past month or two I've been running directly from my OPPO and find I'm liking it better than via preamp. The preamp has brighter highs and deeper lows, and I suspect there's some kind of mild saddle-shaped EQing going on. Now that I've done some significant rearranging in my room, I'll have to try switching back. The last time I did it, I found the preamp was losing some detail in the mids in exchange for the attention drawn to the highs and lows.

Back to the topic at hand:
I don't think it comes down to setup, unless the setup is just more revealing. For example, I just moved my main seating position forward into an equilateral triangle with my mains, which improved my experience a fair amount. It of course didn't change the way my speakers actually sound, just the way I hear them. Still I can hear the disparity between 1080/720 from both positions.

The way I would quantify the difference would be to say that the mids and upper range become a bit brighter and the lows a bit lighter, when switched to 720.

I fully understand the apparent irrationality of this difference appearing, as explained very well by Bob in his recent post...but yet, there it is. And confirmed for my by two blind-tested, audiophile guinea pigs, both of whom came to the same conclusion independently. They were over at different times and I had them listen with their eyes closed.

Perhaps I'll write Charles Hansen and ask for his input, though I don't actually have an email address for him. I'll have to call Ayre and see if he has a public one. I imagine most of what he would say would sail over my head, as I know nothing of circuit designs, etc..

Omar

Last edited by OmarF; 07-10-2014 at 01:20 AM.
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post #1599 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 01:26 AM
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^ I dunno man. All I can say for sure is that switching between 1080p and 720p I can't tell a difference at all.
It is hard to do though since there is like a full 2 second delay of silence between the switching.
If there is a difference in my room, it would be ever ever ever so slight to the point that it's too hard to tell,
and based on your comments, you hear a much bigger difference than that.
It would be interesting to know if you hear anything from Oppo on the matter.

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post #1600 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 02:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
^ I dunno man. All I can say for sure is that switching between 1080p and 720p I can't tell a difference at all.
It is hard to do though since there is like a full 2 second delay of silence between the switching.
If there is a difference in my room, it would be ever ever ever so slight to the point that it's too hard to tell,
and based on your comments, you hear a much bigger difference than that.
It would be interesting to know if you hear anything from Oppo on the matter.
It's not an enormous difference, just mild. Mild enough that the irritation of forgetting a few times to switch back to 1080p until halfway through a movie makes me not want to switch to 720 very often.

Omar
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post #1601 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 04:46 AM
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I find a noticable improvement with 720p, especially when I listen with my headphones
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post #1602 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post
I find a noticable improvement with 720p, especially when I listen with my headphones
What sort of content are you testing this with?

As an experiment, physically disconnect all HDMI connections (both input and output), set HDMI Audio OFF, start your content playing, and select Pure mode (Pure button on the remote). The Front Panel will still light up temporarily when you need to change Resolution between 720p and 1080p.

Do you still hear an audible difference via the headphones between 720p and 1080p?

The point of this experiment is to eliminate the entirety of the HDMI processing from the equation.
--Bob


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post #1603 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by edfowler View Post
I find a noticable improvement with 720p, especially when I listen with my headphones
I agree 100%.

Since I am always switching between music and movies, I sometimes forget to set back the player for the specific task, I notice the difference in sound quality quicker when I am listening to music and the player is set at 1080p than when I'm watching a movie at 720.

The sound differences are heard through the analog outputs.

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post #1604 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 07:56 AM
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Why does the audio "pause" or "drop out" during the switch of video resolutions (i.e. 1080p to 720p) on the 105? It would seem that there is some dependence between the video and audio paths electronically inside the unit.
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post #1605 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Why does the audio "pause" or "drop out" during the switch of video resolutions (i.e. 1080p to 720p) on the 105? It would seem that there is some dependence between the video and audio paths electronically inside the unit.
If you are talking about HDMI audio, it's because HDMI output is muted during the HDMI handshake. If you are talking about Analog audio, playback is Paused during the HDMI handshake.
--Bob


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post #1606 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:26 AM
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Damnit - I typed up a long post this morning, but it must have timed out rather than posted.

The gist of it is that I didn't get a chance to check 720p and audio on my system last night, I got home way to late to do critical listening without bothering the fiance.

I could see internal noise, or power supply causing some issues with other parts of the circuit. I know Oppo is pretty critical about layout and S/N, but it's still in theory possible.
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Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles

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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
If you are talking about HDMI audio, it's because HDMI output is muted during the HDMI handshake. If you are talking about Analog audio, playback is Paused during the HDMI handshake.

--Bob

Analog audio.....so if I completely disconnect all my hdmi connections on the player, I should get no handshakes, thus no audio pausing between video resolution changes?

Last edited by DanF8500; 07-10-2014 at 08:33 AM.
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post #1608 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:31 AM
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My guess is more about the mainboard, as it handles audio processing like speaker management, it has to do something in the sound path before it gets to the audio circuitry.
For those with a stereo setup, try if turning the sub output on or off changes anything while listening to a stereo track.
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post #1609 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Analog audio.....so if I completely disconnect all my hdmi connections on the player, I should get no handshakes, thus no audio pausing between video resolution changes?
That should be true, although I haven't checked if the programming initiates the Pause anyway.
--Bob
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post #1610 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:48 AM
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I would like to see one of the forum members who has both the 105 and the HA-1 do a little comparison between the 105 with the hdmi disconnected and set on 720p to the HA-1 doing its thing with the same source material. Preferably a hi rez (as high as the 105 can handle) file over async USB. That would be interesting.
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post #1611 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:51 AM
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[QUOTE=Bob Pariseau;25631465]What sort of content are you testing this with?

I am typically playing a DSF SACD rip with a flash drive from one of the regular usb ports when I listen to music. I am still re-ripping my entire cd collection and am too lazy to get up and switch the usb cable between the external drive I have connected to my macbook and the oppo.
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post #1612 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:52 AM
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Keep in mind that any supposed difference in Analog audio quality between 720p and 1080p would have to be something that does not show in the bench tests -- either OPPO's internal testing or the published review bench tests.

That eliminates a lot of possibilities.
--Bob
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post #1613 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 08:56 AM
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[quote=edfowler;25634097]
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
What sort of content are you testing this with?

I am typically playing a DSF SACD rip with a flash drive from one of the regular usb ports when I listen to music. I am still re-ripping my entire cd collection and am too lazy to get up and switch the usb cable between the external drive I have connected to my macbook and the oppo.
Are you playing that as DSD or PCM? Played as DSD eliminates even more, possibilities.

Please do try the experiment I described to shutdown the HDMI stuff and see if you still hear the difference.
--Bob
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post #1614 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnarbi View Post
My guess is more about the mainboard, as it handles audio processing like speaker management, it has to do something in the sound path before it gets to the audio circuitry.
For those with a stereo setup, try if turning the sub output on or off changes anything while listening to a stereo track.
Inarbi, as I said in a reply to a poster who was not happy with the Oppo sound quality a couple of days ago, the biggest difference is heard when the player is set from 1080p to 720, so I advised him to do so in order to make the Oppo sing, but I also have full range speakers and the next step I take is to disengage the sub in the audio set up. To be honest I have not made any critical tests regarding the effect that the sub off option may or may not have on sound quality, but I do it anyways to keep it out of the equation.

The pure audio feature makes absolutely no difference in my set up.

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Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
Analog audio.....so if I completely disconnect all my hdmi connections on the player, I should get no handshakes, thus no audio pausing between video resolution changes?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
That should be true, although I haven't checked if the programming initiates the Pause anyway.

--Bob

I have some free time, and tested this out. The audio pause still happens, even with all hdmi disconnected from the 105. In fact, I wouldn't call it a "pause". A small time span of audio is actually "dropped/lost" during the video resolution switching. I'm not ruling out that there might be some electrical dependency between the video and audio paths inside the Oppo player. I don't think Oppo design/engineering would just decide to "drop" audio during a video switch for no particular reason. Something gets reset internally in the player that affects the audio playback circuitry. If audio playback was the highest priority, the video resolution switch setting would be greyed out and not allowable until audio was stopped.

Last edited by DanF8500; 07-10-2014 at 09:49 AM.
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post #1616 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 09:49 AM
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^ Obviously they are not independent. The Digital processing -- both format decoding and video/audio rendering -- all go through the MediaTek System on Chip.
--Bob


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post #1617 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 09:54 AM
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Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles

^ including the usb dac input path? No way to avoid/bypass the MediaTek for audio?
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post #1618 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 10:02 AM
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^ Those are details I don't know, although I believe a separate bus into the DACs is used for the USB DAC Input.
--Bob
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post #1619 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 10:47 AM
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[quote=Bob Pariseau;25634305]
Quote:
Originally Posted by edfowler View Post

Are you playing that as DSD or PCM? Played as DSD eliminates even more, possibilities.

Please do try the experiment I described to shutdown the HDMI stuff and see if you still hear the difference.
--Bob
Playing it as dsd (the display says sacd)
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post #1620 of 1701 Old 07-10-2014, 11:31 AM
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I just recently purchased the Oppo 105, Onkyo TX NR 838 and use the


Definitive Technology 8080 series speakers all around in a 5.1 system.


I currently am coming out of the oppo via RCA into the Onkyo CD RCA.


Is this connection going to give me the best stereo sound?


Does anyone have suggestions on this setup for best two channel sound?


Thanks.
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