Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 56 - AVS Forum
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post #1651 of 1712 Old 07-24-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
^^ Your 105D's analog outputs are always active regardless if you're using the multi-ch or the 2-ch connections. The act of connecting a cable or not to the analog outputs has no effect on "break-in" time of your 105D. Just play any music thru it...
If you do not have a cable hooked to something (no load applied) not everything gets burned in as there is no or reduced current flow through some parts.
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post #1652 of 1712 Old 07-25-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by linger63 View Post
ATTENTION BOB PARISEAU


Could you please clarify the above.
My 105 is hooked up via XLR Analog Out DIRECT to my active ATC Mains
My volume level obviously varies with each recording but I know that at 80-85 things are REALLY humming.
I assume my XLR to XLR connection has me 6db hot.


AFAIK Oppo and my local modder (Joe Rassmussen from Custom Analogue)
are VERY happy with the performance of the onboard Volume Control


See Here.......http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-v...me-control.pdf
And Here...... http://www.customanalogue.com/oppo_L3.htm (scroll down to Q5 in FAQ)


What is your (esteemed) opinion??


Also Am I right in assuming that NONE of the multichannel settings will have ANY affect on my ANALOG stereo sound??




FYI.......I run HDMI 1 to HDTV....HDMI 2 to INTEGRA DHC 80.3


2 sets of XLR's.....One set from 105 stereo XLR out........ One set from INTEGRA L/R Main Out


I just switch them out at the Speaker end depending on whether I want Stereo or M/C.


Also, this 720P thing sounds VERY weird!!!! Any further thoughts?


Thank you so much,


Regards,


John


P.S. JAMES.........Feel free to elaborate......I am asking Bob as he appears to be the Resident GURU......No disrespect.
There are two separate things here regarding the advice on Volume.

First of all, the 105 has very high quality Analog audio output Volume control. Those comments you cited refer to that. I.e., there's no problem with loss of audio "resolution" simply because you choose to use the Volume control.

However, running at low output Volume levels does reduce dynamic range. The reason is that the Analog audio output stage -- like all Analog circuitry -- has a "noise floor" which does not attenuate when you reduce the Volume. So if you dropped the Volume down *A LOT* the audio you are trying to hear would be attenuated to the point that it is much closer to the noise floor. Now when you amplify that output to compensate for the low Volume setting you are amplifying both the signal you want to hear and the noise, which or course is not a good thing when they are close.

In the 105, each step of Volume equals 1/2dB. Full output is Volume 100, and every step below that attenuates full output. So a Volume of 1 is -49.5dB below full scale. (Volume 0 is implemented as "Mute".) So you've dropped the signal you want to hear nearly 50dB closer to the noise floor. Now the noise floor in the 105 is quite a bit below that, so that's not catastrophic, but it does mean that the softest sounds in your content are closer to the noise floor than would be ideal, which means they might be masked by the noise floor. And that's the loss of dynamic range.

If you run the Analog output of the OPPO through a pre-amp, typically you would set the OPPO Volume at full scale -- i.e., Volume 100. The only reason to use a lower setting would be if you discover your pre-amp has limited "head room" on its inputs, and thus full scale output from the OPPO is clipping those inputs in higher volume passages. Even so, you'd only drop Volume in the OPPO a few dB to cure that.

For direct connection to a power amp, the recommendation is to try to target an OPPO Volume between 70 and 100 to preserve the high dynamic range the 105 is capable of. If that's too loud for comfortable listening, and you can't adjust the gain in your power amp, then you might want to consider putting some attenuators in line between the OPPO and the power amp. This is a Rule of Thumb. It does not mean that a Volume setting of, say 65 is catastrophic. It means if you commonly use Volume at 70 or above you can ignore this issue.

But if you find yourself commonly using a Volume setting of, say, 10, then you really should consider reconfiguring things, perhaps by using a pre-amp, or perhaps with in-line attenuators.

-------------------------------------------------------

The several reports of 720p video resulting in better audio -- particularly as regards ANALOG audio output -- remain unconfirmed in my opinion. Personally, I don't hear it.

Although you can imagine design issues or bugs which might result in this, no such issue has been identified. In addition, any conjecture for what might be going on here has to account for the fact that no problems are showing up in bench tests using 1080p video. Of course it's possible such bench tests aren't testing the right thing, but most every conjecture of how this MIGHT happen runs afoul of the fact that each such presumed design flaw *SHOULD BE* visible in the bench tests.
--Bob


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post #1653 of 1712 Old 07-25-2014, 01:42 PM
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^ I do not consider the 720P issue a design flaw or a bug.

720P has less jitter than 1080, so it sounds better over HDMI. Why this translates to the other outputs I do not know. No design flaw or bug.

My system is getting so revealing that when watching an audio/video on my Mac Mini, I can hear the difference in sound when I go full screen; full screen sounding slightly worse.

I have been doing a lot of structural changes with my system which means sometimes I do not have the full system set up. Last night, I went back to listening through the TV speakers using HDMI from the Oppo. I have been tweaking a lot and decided to go back into the TV menu to see if there was any setting I had not tested.

The TV has a delay setting for the optical digital out which is not hooked up to anything. I listened and ran the delay from 0 to max which is something like 240. While doing this, I could hear a certain point where the sound improved (snapped into focus). I went back and narrowed it down to 170. 130 also snapped in, but not as much as 170.

I then tested a few times with my eyes closed running it up and down without knowing where it was, and I evertime I heard the best sound and opened my eyes to see where it was, it was at 170. I am going to see if this translates back to the Oppo when using the Oppo coax out which is what I usually listen to. All the other changes have translated. A little wine and weed helps to hear these small changes. I love this stuff!!

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post #1654 of 1712 Old 07-25-2014, 03:59 PM
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^ The whole jitter thing is being blown out of proportion, but that aside, the claim has been that at least one poster can hear the difference on the Analog audio outputs when HDMI Audio is set to OFF, Pure Mode is engaged, AND the HDMI cables are physically disconnected -- all of them, both in and out!

I can not reproduce that (nor when testing audio over HDMI), but it should be obvious that HDMI jitter can't possibly be an explanation of that result, and if confirmed that absolutely would represent a bug.

Again, the other problem here is that the bench tests are also showing no difference. This excludes popular science explanations such as video noise propagating differently in the internals at 720p.

It's hard to prove a negative, but I'm pretty skeptical right now.
--Bob
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post #1655 of 1712 Old 07-25-2014, 08:17 PM
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I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.

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post #1656 of 1712 Old 07-26-2014, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post
I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.
At first, I also thought I heard a clear difference between 1080 and 720 when playing back over analogue. Then I refined my testing methodology and realized my ears were tricking me. I posted details about it on one of these 105 threads a couple weeks ago.

Omar
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post #1657 of 1712 Old 07-26-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
If you run the Analog output of the OPPO through a pre-amp, typically you would set the OPPO Volume at full scale -- i.e., Volume 100. The only reason to use a lower setting would be if you discover your pre-amp has limited "head room" on its inputs, and thus full scale output from the OPPO is clipping those inputs in higher volume passages.
--Bob
An exception to that advice is if you use a stereo preamp and take surrounds directly the amps. I set my Parasound JC-2 preamp to unity gain for surround and HT and use the volume control of the Oppo. Following Richard Schram's suggestion, I set unity gain with an SPL meter, and marked the JC-2 volume control. I intend to send my unit in for their by-pass mod when Parasound has the parts. That mod sets any channel to unity gain with but a push of a button.

A DirecTV HD-DVR connects via HDMI to the Oppo, and the volume settings we use for TV are between 55 and 75. For surround music and HT, it's usually well over 70.

db

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post #1658 of 1712 Old 07-26-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post
I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.


Is it "better" or different? I have a high resolution system and have heard no difference. Charles Hansen wrote a great article on jitter and it's affect.
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post #1659 of 1712 Old 07-26-2014, 02:38 PM
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^I am not sure what the "it" is you are referring to. If it is sound quality, I say the sound at 720P is better which also means it would have to be different. My experience is that most changes are clearly better or worse, but I have had a few at most that were only different.

I would like to read the article. Do you know where I can find it?
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post #1660 of 1712 Old 07-29-2014, 07:47 PM
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The sound appears to be improving as I use the 105D more. Overall I'm impressed and look forward to even better sound in the coming weeks and months.
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post #1661 of 1712 Old 07-29-2014, 09:15 PM
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Hey guys...I am having some issues dialing in my subwoofer. Using the analogue multichannel outs on the Oppp 105D to the analogue Multi in on my Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR. At first I had both components with the same settings. Speakers to small & 80hz crossover. And the Elite has an option to increase the sub gain when using the Multi analogue so I did this. +10db.

Just felt the LFE was too hot and muddy as well. Too much bass and not as tight or defined. Did some reading on here and someone suggested changing Oppo speakers to Large and Sub yes.....leaving the AVR where it was. I also went back to the default setting of 0db for the sub instead of the +10 gain for analogue. After this change it was much much better. I played several familiar scenes Sunday afternoon and it was deep, tight, and powerful.

BUT...tonight I was listening to some concert BDs and it felt like the LFE was totally off. Anyway, I can just manually tweak it for music.

However somehow tonight, I just couldn't reproduce what I heard the other day. I know that sounds NUTS. Do you guys think there is some double processing going on? I own dual SVS PB 12/plus 2 subs but only one is working at the moment.

Just for fun I plugged in the HDMI and let my AVR decode. For starters, it's much louder. Had to really lower the volume. IDK, the bass was overall stronger and tighter at times using the HDMI so I know there is something I am overlooking or doing wrong.

Suggestions? I have been so frustrated I am ready to just forget the whole thing and listen to my plasma TV speakers.
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post #1662 of 1712 Old 07-30-2014, 02:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover View Post
Did some reading on here and someone suggested changing Oppo speakers to Large and Sub yes.....leaving the AVR where it was. I also went back to the default setting of 0db for the sub instead of the +10 gain for analogue. After this change it was much much better. I played several familiar scenes Sunday afternoon and it was deep
Did you try setting speakers to small without the 10 dB gain for the subs? Using the noise generator of the Oppo and an SPL meter, you might try setting all channels including the subs to 75 dB SPL. I never want to be aware of the subs, or any of the speakers, as an acoustic source. I use a pair of Velodyne SMS-1s to provide acoustic room correction for a pair of HGS-15s. When I set speakers to 75 dB SPL, I've already added 10 dB in the SMS-1s so I can cut the level to the subs if the program material has excessive LF, a problem I've encountered only with certain TV programs from the DirecTV HD-DVR.

db

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post #1663 of 1712 Old 07-30-2014, 07:44 AM
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Good suggestions. Thx. No I never tried to set the speakers to small without the 10db gain. Will do that this evening. Thx again for the suggestions as I really do need to get a SPL meter. Way overdue.
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Good suggestions. Thx. No I never tried to set the speakers to small without the 10db gain. Will do that this evening. Thx again for the suggestions as I really do need to get a SPL meter. Way overdue.
I would definitely get an SPL meter. Setting the satellite speaker levels cannot be done accurately by ear. However, I would suggest that you set the SW level by ear. Once you've chosen the proper speaker size and crossover frequency and have level matched the satellite speakers, leave the SW level at 0 on the Oppo. Play some multichannel music with good bass, and use the subwoofer's own volume knob to set the level where the bass seems just right.
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I reiterate, I'd start with all the levels including that of the sub at the same SPL, then you can trim the sub level if you see fit. You don't want to hear the sub as a source. I'd start with a sub crossover of 80 Hz.

db

Thorens TD 124, SME Series III arm with Ortofon SME 30 H cartridge into Parasound JC-3 phono stage
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post #1666 of 1712 Old 08-02-2014, 08:44 PM
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Back on page 2 someone asked if anybody had compared the Oppo 105 DAC with the Proceed AVP DAC . . . Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to check that out yet?

My situation.

Redbook CDs are a big part of my listening life.

I have scrounged old stuff that used to be top of the heap (because I can't afford the latest). I've been using a discontinued McIntosh universal player for my CDs and before that a Proceed player. Right now I've got Legacy speakers all around, Proceed AVP, Cayin tubes powering mids and highs, a pair of 500w Red Dragon class D mono amps powering my woofers, a McCormack 3 channel amp powering my surrounds and center, and an Oppo 83 for my DVD needs.

It looks like the laser is going out on my McIntosh, so I need to replace it. I have a lot of confidence in the Oppo as a DVD vehicle, and it seems pretty good as CD transport (though not equal to the McIntosh, IMHO โ€” to my tastes the highs seem "thin"). Hearing the praise for the 105 has me wondering if its DAC has beat the Proceed's.

The reason I want to know this is because if the 105 doesn't noticeably surpass the Proceed, then possibly I can save a lot of money by going for the Oppo 103 and using it as a CD transport. My other option is to bite the bullet and replace the McIntosh's laser or buy another dedicated transport.

All advice and opinions welcome.
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post #1667 of 1712 Old 08-03-2014, 12:50 AM
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Yesterday I listend to the same material on a Linn Akurate with Wolfson 8741 DAC, and an Icos CD player with burr brown 1792.
It was almost impossible to tell which one was playing and when, they sounded exactly the same, and they use very different DACs... DACs won't make the sound on their own.
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post #1668 of 1712 Old 08-03-2014, 06:22 AM
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105 time!!!!!!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by les3547 View Post
Back on page 2 someone asked if anybody had compared the Oppo 105 DAC with the Proceed AVP DAC . . . Just wondering if anyone has had a chance to check that out yet?

My situation.

Redbook CDs are a big part of my listening life.

I have scrounged old stuff that used to be top of the heap (because I can't afford the latest). I've been using a discontinued McIntosh universal player for my CDs and before that a Proceed player. Right now I've got Legacy speakers all around, Proceed AVP, Cayin tubes powering mids and highs, a pair of 500w Red Dragon class D mono amps powering my woofers, a McCormack 3 channel amp powering my surrounds and center, and an Oppo 83 for my DVD needs.

It looks like the laser is going out on my McIntosh, so I need to replace it. I have a lot of confidence in the Oppo as a DVD vehicle, and it seems pretty good as CD transport (though not equal to the McIntosh, IMHO โ€” to my tastes the highs seem "thin"). Hearing the praise for the 105 has me wondering if its DAC has beat the Proceed's.

The reason I want to know this is because if the 105 doesn't noticeably surpass the Proceed, then possibly I can save a lot of money by going for the Oppo 103 and using it as a CD transport. My other option is to bite the bullet and replace the McIntosh's laser or buy another dedicated transport.

All advice and opinions welcome.





Get an OPPO 105


1. It will do a better job for DVD and/or Blu Ray
2. It offers more CURRENT features
3. I would think you will be impressed by the ESS DAC
4. Losslessly rip your CD's and use USB input (IMO better sound and convenience)

and 5.......If possible, try listening DIRECT into your Power Amps


The XLR outs of the '105 are very good and OPPO think the onboard 32 bit Digital Volume Control is also up to the task.


At best you are now VERY HAPPY with EVERYTHING.


At worst you have upgraded your older 83 to a SOTA 105.




Cheers,


John
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post #1669 of 1712 Old 08-04-2014, 07:18 AM
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^
I would say go for the 105D for even more features.
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post #1670 of 1712 Old 08-05-2014, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linger63 View Post
Get an OPPO 105


1. It will do a better job for DVD and/or Blu Ray
2. It offers more CURRENT features
3. I would think you will be impressed by the ESS DAC
4. Losslessly rip your CD's and use USB input (IMO better sound and convenience)

At worst you have upgraded your older 83 to a SOTA 105.

John

Having recently upgraded from the 83 to the 105 I would have to agree with your points with the exception of number one. The upconverting chip on the 83 still stands as perhaps one of the best ever. As best, 105 would be equal, but certainly not better.


It's such a minor point however that it certainly is not a reason not to upgrade.
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post #1671 of 1712 Old 08-05-2014, 04:45 PM
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I read through all the headphone related posts and the 105 sounds promising, but I didn't see anyone compare the 105 headphone stage to a standalone dac/amp. Can anyone say whether or not they prefer the Oppo to their standalone Schiit or Woo Audio rig, for example, of comparable price range? If someone can attest the Oppo is equally satisfying, the 105 is a no brainer for a headphone user.
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post #1672 of 1712 Old 08-06-2014, 12:20 AM
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Good pick up

Quote:
Originally Posted by weekendtoy View Post
Having recently upgraded from the 83 to the 105 I would have to agree with your points with the exception of number one. The upconverting chip on the 83 still stands as perhaps one of the best ever. As best, 105 would be equal, but certainly not better.


It's such a minor point however that it certainly is not a reason not to upgrade.



Hi weekendtoy,




Yes, you are absolutely correct about the great DVD upconverting ability in the '83


As I only watch DVD's when I have to these days I had forgotten about that!!


Thanks and hope you are enjoying your 105 as much as I am.




Cheers
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post #1673 of 1712 Old 08-06-2014, 12:24 AM
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Oppo headphones

Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaSheep View Post
I read through all the headphone related posts and the 105 sounds promising, but I didn't see anyone compare the 105 headphone stage to a standalone dac/amp. Can anyone say whether or not they prefer the Oppo to their standalone Schiit or Woo Audio rig, for example, of comparable price range? If someone can attest the Oppo is equally satisfying, the 105 is a no brainer for a headphone user.



Hi JustaSheep (lol),




Apparently the headphone set up in the '105 is pretty good but I can't really answer your question properly, however I thought I should mention this just in case.


Did you know OPPO also make Headphones AND a standalone Headphone/DAC/amp?


Maybe a better option for you??


If not then sorry for wasting your time.




Cheers
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post #1674 of 1712 Old 08-06-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustaSheep View Post
I read through all the headphone related posts and the 105 sounds promising, but I didn't see anyone compare the 105 headphone stage to a standalone dac/amp. Can anyone say whether or not they prefer the Oppo to their standalone Schiit or Woo Audio rig, for example, of comparable price range? If someone can attest the Oppo is equally satisfying, the 105 is a no brainer for a headphone user.
I have read that the 105 headphone amp works on easy to medium hard to drive headphones (Absolute Sound or Stereophile) but not so good on the very high impedance versions. It has been a while since I saw that so might be difficult to find unless on line now. If headphones are a priority, a stand alone headphone DAC/amp such as Oppo's might be a better choice.
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post #1675 of 1712 Old 08-09-2014, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by shedlerman View Post
Good day!
I have a processor Onkyo PR-SC5509 and amplifier NAD M25
The processor have XLR inputs, but no outputs, the amplifier have not XSL inputs, to make direct from OPPO via XLR.
What is preferable to buy 105 ะพั€ 103 in these case? Is the sound quality difference on analog RCA between 103 and 105.
I listen SACD stereo, HD music, and films.
Thanks for advice.
Shedlerman: Did you ever get an Oppo 103 or 105? If so, which one? How is it performing with your PR-SC5509? (I have a PR-SC5508 that I'm thinking of pairing with a 103 or 105.) I have an aging Denon DCD-3000 CD player, Oppo DV-983H DVD player, and LG BD390 blu-ray player that I'm thinking could all be replaced by the 105.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover View Post
Hey guys...I am having some issues dialing in my subwoofer. Using the analogue multichannel outs on the Oppp 105D to the analogue Multi in on my Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR. At first I had both components with the same settings. Speakers to small & 80hz crossover. And the Elite has an option to increase the sub gain when using the Multi analogue so I did this. +10db. .....
.......
Suggestions? I have been so frustrated I am ready to just forget the whole thing and listen to my plasma TV speakers.
I am sure you have done so, as you seem savvy enough, but just in case, have you set the speaker distances in your Oppo? Not sure how much not doing this would affect you perception of the sound quality.
Also, with only 2-channel material, I get no LFE channel sound (I have the Oppo 95) unless I have my main front l/r speakers set to small.
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post #1677 of 1712 Old 08-10-2014, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Glover View Post
Hey guys...I am having some issues dialing in my subwoofer. Using the analogue multichannel outs on the Oppp 105D to the analogue Multi in on my Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR. At first I had both components with the same settings. Speakers to small & 80hz crossover. And the Elite has an option to increase the sub gain when using the Multi analogue so I did this. +10db.

Just felt the LFE was too hot and muddy as well. Too much bass and not as tight or defined. Did some reading on here and someone suggested changing Oppo speakers to Large and Sub yes.....leaving the AVR where it was. I also went back to the default setting of 0db for the sub instead of the +10 gain for analogue. After this change it was much much better. I played several familiar scenes Sunday afternoon and it was deep, tight, and powerful.

BUT...tonight I was listening to some concert BDs and it felt like the LFE was totally off. Anyway, I can just manually tweak it for music.

However somehow tonight, I just couldn't reproduce what I heard the other day. I know that sounds NUTS. Do you guys think there is some double processing going on? I own dual SVS PB 12/plus 2 subs but only one is working at the moment.

Just for fun I plugged in the HDMI and let my AVR decode. For starters, it's much louder. Had to really lower the volume. IDK, the bass was overall stronger and tighter at times using the HDMI so I know there is something I am overlooking or doing wrong.

Suggestions? I have been so frustrated I am ready to just forget the whole thing and listen to my plasma TV speakers.
Take a step back and think about what you are doing here. With a Crossover active in BOTH the OPPO and the AVR you are doubling the processing. Effectively you are steepening the slope of the Crossover. Not good.

The idea is to only do the Crossover processing in one place. If you want the OPPO to do it, then you must set speakers to LARGE in the AVR. If you want the AVR to do it then you must set speakers to LARGE in the OPPO.

Furthermore, you must make sure the Sub itself is not applying a Crossover to discard higher bass frequencies. Either disable the Crossover built into the Sub, or crank it up to the highest frequency to get it out of the way as much as possible.

And if you have any other electronics between the AVR and the Sub you must make sure there is no Crossover active there either!

OK, next is Sub boost. You absolutely have to check this with an SPL meter. I also recommend you check it using the test tones on a calibration disc. For example the LPCM test tones on AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray.

When all speakers are set to LARGE in the OPPO, the RCA Sub output of the OPPO needs +10dB boost, external to the player, to match the output of the other RCA jacks. (If you are using the XLR jacks for LF/RF speakers, they are an additional 6dB hotter.)

If any speakers are set to SMALL in the OPPO, then the bass boost needed is +15dB instead of +10dB.

The bass boost needed is usually accomplished by adjusting the Volume knob on the Sub itself, but when passing the Sub signal through an AVR, the AVR usually adds +10dB boost itself, by default.

You can avoid being confused by these details if you just take the simple step of checking what's actually getting to the Sub with an SPL meter and a calibration test track like that one from AIX. Once the Sub level measures the same as the main speaker levels you are good to go.

The difference between what you heard with the movie disc vs. the music is likely that the movie disc had bass in its LFE channel (the .1 of 5.1 or 7.1) whereas the music disc may very well have nothing in the LFE channel -- all its bass was in the main speaker channels. And thus the music disc was a more sensitive test of whether the Crossover was set up correctly.

Lastly is the issue of picking the best Crossover frequency. The physical positioning of your Sub, and the room geometry, alters how bass "standing waves" couple with the room. At some frequencies you will get resonance peaks. At others cancellation nulls. It's not uncommon to see a swing of 12dB in the bass you hear at different frequencies. Adjusting the Sub positioning or treating the room to damp bass reflections can tame this. And picking a different Crossover frequency can also tame this by moving bass to the Sub earlier or later in he frequency curve. (The mains and Sub are at different locations, so couple differently.)

If you have a big Room Response problem like this, that can ALSO show up as perceived bass quality differences between movies and music. Why? Because movies and music emphasize different bass frequencies.

That AIX disc has another sensitive test to check for unequal bass response. Its Crossover test sends a bass frequency sweep to just the mains. At the high frequency end all of that comes out of the Mains. At the low frequency end it all comes out of the Sub due to the action of the Crossover.

If everything is set up correctly, that sweep should be heard as constant volume from end to end (except for the very lowest bass which is more felt than heard).

Bass calibration and room setup are complicated topics. See the Subwoofer forum here for more information and advice on test tools and methods.
--Bob
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post #1678 of 1712 Old 08-10-2014, 04:30 PM
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It was a great idea to email Oppo customer service.

Kudos to the guy who suggested contacting Oppo directly (this reply came on a Sunday, no less). Here's what they had to say for my setup (YMMV):

Me: Please help me choose! I'm in the market for a 103 or 105. I currently have an Onkyo PR-SC5508 pre connected via RCA to an aging Denon DCD-3000 CD player, and via HDMI to an Oppo DV-983H DVD player and LG BD390 blu-ray player. I use my system for about 50/50 music/movies with Audyssey on all of the time. Which new Oppo would be best for me?

Oppo: You will likely want to go with the BDP-103 and use HDMI for all audio and video. This should give you the best audio and video experience with your current audio and video configuration.
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post #1679 of 1712 Old 08-10-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

... If so, then your AVR is definitely at fault as there is no such thing as "jitter" when sending a Bitstream over HDMI (because the Bitstream data gets decoded in the AVR and jitter can only happen AFTER that point and before the data reaches the AVR's DACs).
I did find some more information from Charles Hansern about bitstream versus LPCM jitter.

Here is is: http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=hirez&m=273371
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post #1680 of 1712 Old 08-10-2014, 08:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
Take a step back and think about what you are doing here. With a Crossover active in BOTH the OPPO and the AVR you are doubling the processing. Effectively you are steepening the slope of the Crossover. Not good.

The idea is to only do the Crossover processing in one place. If you want the OPPO to do it, then you must set speakers to LARGE in the AVR. If you want the AVR to do it then you must set speakers to LARGE in the OPPO.

Furthermore, you must make sure the Sub itself is not applying a Crossover to discard higher bass frequencies. Either disable the Crossover built into the Sub, or crank it up to the highest frequency to get it out of the way as much as possible.

And if you have any other electronics between the AVR and the Sub you must make sure there is no Crossover active there either!

OK, next is Sub boost. You absolutely have to check this with an SPL meter. I also recommend you check it using the test tones on a calibration disc. For example the LPCM test tones on AIX Audio Calibration, Blu-ray.

When all speakers are set to LARGE in the OPPO, the RCA Sub output of the OPPO needs +10dB boost, external to the player, to match the output of the other RCA jacks. (If you are using the XLR jacks for LF/RF speakers, they are an additional 6dB hotter.)

If any speakers are set to SMALL in the OPPO, then the bass boost needed is +15dB instead of +10dB.

The bass boost needed is usually accomplished by adjusting the Volume knob on the Sub itself, but when passing the Sub signal through an AVR, the AVR usually adds +10dB boost itself, by default.

You can avoid being confused by these details if you just take the simple step of checking what's actually getting to the Sub with an SPL meter and a calibration test track like that one from AIX. Once the Sub level measures the same as the main speaker levels you are good to go.

The difference between what you heard with the movie disc vs. the music is likely that the movie disc had bass in its LFE channel (the .1 of 5.1 or 7.1) whereas the music disc may very well have nothing in the LFE channel -- all its bass was in the main speaker channels. And thus the music disc was a more sensitive test of whether the Crossover was set up correctly.

Lastly is the issue of picking the best Crossover frequency. The physical positioning of your Sub, and the room geometry, alters how bass "standing waves" couple with the room. At some frequencies you will get resonance peaks. At others cancellation nulls. It's not uncommon to see a swing of 12dB in the bass you hear at different frequencies. Adjusting the Sub positioning or treating the room to damp bass reflections can tame this. And picking a different Crossover frequency can also tame this by moving bass to the Sub earlier or later in he frequency curve. (The mains and Sub are at different locations, so couple differently.)

If you have a big Room Response problem like this, that can ALSO show up as perceived bass quality differences between movies and music. Why? Because movies and music emphasize different bass frequencies.

That AIX disc has another sensitive test to check for unequal bass response. Its Crossover test sends a bass frequency sweep to just the mains. At the high frequency end all of that comes out of the Mains. At the low frequency end it all comes out of the Sub due to the action of the Crossover.

If everything is set up correctly, that sweep should be heard as constant volume from end to end (except for the very lowest bass which is more felt than heard).

Bass calibration and room setup are complicated topics. See the Subwoofer forum here for more information and advice on test tools and methods.
--Bob
Wow....thanks SO much Bob. Very detailed and I appreciate you taking the time. I really do! I've been chatting with Ed Mullen of SVS after my initial post and have altered a few things that have been positive. AVR is indeed set to Large, Oppo to small. I also confirmed that the AVR is NOT doing any post analogue processing and it's not.

The only thing (s) I have not done and to be honest, it intimidates me. Is a SPL meter. I don't know how to use one!

But I know my ears cannot be the judge. Today I played several BASS heavy tracks. Dark Knight Rises Blu is a couch mover. The bass is much more room filling and "feeling" too when I engage the AVR to +10 LFE for the analogues. I was trying to get away without it but it sounds a little anemic left off. Just increasing the sub gain really didn't produce the same.

I've never had a one setting fits all on the subs though. Never. There are films like the Dark Knight that has TOO much bass. Anyway, currently I have all the channels to small on the Oppo 105, all channels at 0db. Crossover at 80. I do have sub crossover disabled.

On this particular disc I felt that dialing back the Oppo Sub level to -2db had a more natural sound and not as boomy. Not sure what is best to leave it at 0 and tweak the gain on the sub? I messed around with this all afternoon LOL.

so I just need to buy a SPL and the AIX disc you suggest and get this even better. That will be far more dialed in than having to rely on just my ears.

Thx again Bob.
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