Oppo BDP-105 "Sound Quality" Check Thread for Audiophiles - Page 56 - AVS Forum
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post #1651 of 1661 Old 07-24-2014, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by DanF8500 View Post
^^ Your 105D's analog outputs are always active regardless if you're using the multi-ch or the 2-ch connections. The act of connecting a cable or not to the analog outputs has no effect on "break-in" time of your 105D. Just play any music thru it...
If you do not have a cable hooked to something (no load applied) not everything gets burned in as there is no or reduced current flow through some parts.
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post #1652 of 1661 Old 07-25-2014, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by linger63 View Post
ATTENTION BOB PARISEAU


Could you please clarify the above.
My 105 is hooked up via XLR Analog Out DIRECT to my active ATC Mains
My volume level obviously varies with each recording but I know that at 80-85 things are REALLY humming.
I assume my XLR to XLR connection has me 6db hot.


AFAIK Oppo and my local modder (Joe Rassmussen from Custom Analogue)
are VERY happy with the performance of the onboard Volume Control


See Here.......http://www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-v...me-control.pdf
And Here...... http://www.customanalogue.com/oppo_L3.htm (scroll down to Q5 in FAQ)


What is your (esteemed) opinion??


Also Am I right in assuming that NONE of the multichannel settings will have ANY affect on my ANALOG stereo sound??




FYI.......I run HDMI 1 to HDTV....HDMI 2 to INTEGRA DHC 80.3


2 sets of XLR's.....One set from 105 stereo XLR out........ One set from INTEGRA L/R Main Out


I just switch them out at the Speaker end depending on whether I want Stereo or M/C.


Also, this 720P thing sounds VERY weird!!!! Any further thoughts?


Thank you so much,


Regards,


John


P.S. JAMES.........Feel free to elaborate......I am asking Bob as he appears to be the Resident GURU......No disrespect.
There are two separate things here regarding the advice on Volume.

First of all, the 105 has very high quality Analog audio output Volume control. Those comments you cited refer to that. I.e., there's no problem with loss of audio "resolution" simply because you choose to use the Volume control.

However, running at low output Volume levels does reduce dynamic range. The reason is that the Analog audio output stage -- like all Analog circuitry -- has a "noise floor" which does not attenuate when you reduce the Volume. So if you dropped the Volume down *A LOT* the audio you are trying to hear would be attenuated to the point that it is much closer to the noise floor. Now when you amplify that output to compensate for the low Volume setting you are amplifying both the signal you want to hear and the noise, which or course is not a good thing when they are close.

In the 105, each step of Volume equals 1/2dB. Full output is Volume 100, and every step below that attenuates full output. So a Volume of 1 is -49.5dB below full scale. (Volume 0 is implemented as "Mute".) So you've dropped the signal you want to hear nearly 50dB closer to the noise floor. Now the noise floor in the 105 is quite a bit below that, so that's not catastrophic, but it does mean that the softest sounds in your content are closer to the noise floor than would be ideal, which means they might be masked by the noise floor. And that's the loss of dynamic range.

If you run the Analog output of the OPPO through a pre-amp, typically you would set the OPPO Volume at full scale -- i.e., Volume 100. The only reason to use a lower setting would be if you discover your pre-amp has limited "head room" on its inputs, and thus full scale output from the OPPO is clipping those inputs in higher volume passages. Even so, you'd only drop Volume in the OPPO a few dB to cure that.

For direct connection to a power amp, the recommendation is to try to target an OPPO Volume between 70 and 100 to preserve the high dynamic range the 105 is capable of. If that's too loud for comfortable listening, and you can't adjust the gain in your power amp, then you might want to consider putting some attenuators in line between the OPPO and the power amp. This is a Rule of Thumb. It does not mean that a Volume setting of, say 65 is catastrophic. It means if you commonly use Volume at 70 or above you can ignore this issue.

But if you find yourself commonly using a Volume setting of, say, 10, then you really should consider reconfiguring things, perhaps by using a pre-amp, or perhaps with in-line attenuators.

-------------------------------------------------------

The several reports of 720p video resulting in better audio -- particularly as regards ANALOG audio output -- remain unconfirmed in my opinion. Personally, I don't hear it.

Although you can imagine design issues or bugs which might result in this, no such issue has been identified. In addition, any conjecture for what might be going on here has to account for the fact that no problems are showing up in bench tests using 1080p video. Of course it's possible such bench tests aren't testing the right thing, but most every conjecture of how this MIGHT happen runs afoul of the fact that each such presumed design flaw *SHOULD BE* visible in the bench tests.
--Bob

Anthem D2/D2v/AVM50/AVM50v/ARC1 tweaking guide. -- Need personal consultation/training? PM me!
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post #1653 of 1661 Old 07-25-2014, 01:42 PM
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^ I do not consider the 720P issue a design flaw or a bug.

720P has less jitter than 1080, so it sounds better over HDMI. Why this translates to the other outputs I do not know. No design flaw or bug.

My system is getting so revealing that when watching an audio/video on my Mac Mini, I can hear the difference in sound when I go full screen; full screen sounding slightly worse.

I have been doing a lot of structural changes with my system which means sometimes I do not have the full system set up. Last night, I went back to listening through the TV speakers using HDMI from the Oppo. I have been tweaking a lot and decided to go back into the TV menu to see if there was any setting I had not tested.

The TV has a delay setting for the optical digital out which is not hooked up to anything. I listened and ran the delay from 0 to max which is something like 240. While doing this, I could hear a certain point where the sound improved (snapped into focus). I went back and narrowed it down to 170. 130 also snapped in, but not as much as 170.

I then tested a few times with my eyes closed running it up and down without knowing where it was, and I evertime I heard the best sound and opened my eyes to see where it was, it was at 170. I am going to see if this translates back to the Oppo when using the Oppo coax out which is what I usually listen to. All the other changes have translated. A little wine and weed helps to hear these small changes. I love this stuff!!

Last edited by kellybob; 07-25-2014 at 01:56 PM.
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post #1654 of 1661 Old 07-25-2014, 03:59 PM
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^ The whole jitter thing is being blown out of proportion, but that aside, the claim has been that at least one poster can hear the difference on the Analog audio outputs when HDMI Audio is set to OFF, Pure Mode is engaged, AND the HDMI cables are physically disconnected -- all of them, both in and out!

I can not reproduce that (nor when testing audio over HDMI), but it should be obvious that HDMI jitter can't possibly be an explanation of that result, and if confirmed that absolutely would represent a bug.

Again, the other problem here is that the bench tests are also showing no difference. This excludes popular science explanations such as video noise propagating differently in the internals at 720p.

It's hard to prove a negative, but I'm pretty skeptical right now.
--Bob
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post #1655 of 1661 Old 07-25-2014, 08:17 PM
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I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.

Last edited by kellybob; 07-25-2014 at 08:32 PM.
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post #1656 of 1661 Old 07-26-2014, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post
I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.
At first, I also thought I heard a clear difference between 1080 and 720 when playing back over analogue. Then I refined my testing methodology and realized my ears were tricking me. I posted details about it on one of these 105 threads a couple weeks ago.

Omar
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post #1657 of 1661 Old 07-26-2014, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
If you run the Analog output of the OPPO through a pre-amp, typically you would set the OPPO Volume at full scale -- i.e., Volume 100. The only reason to use a lower setting would be if you discover your pre-amp has limited "head room" on its inputs, and thus full scale output from the OPPO is clipping those inputs in higher volume passages.
--Bob
An exception to that advice is if you use a stereo preamp and take surrounds directly the amps. I set my Parasound JC-2 preamp to unity gain for surround and HT and use the volume control of the Oppo. Following Richard Schram's suggestion, I set unity gain with an SPL meter, and marked the JC-2 volume control. I intend to send my unit in for their by-pass mod when Parasound has the parts. That mod sets any channel to unity gain with but a push of a button.

A DirecTV HD-DVR connects via HDMI to the Oppo, and the volume settings we use for TV are between 55 and 75. For surround music and HT, it's usually well over 70.

db

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post #1658 of 1661 Old 07-26-2014, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellybob View Post
I can hear the 720P change over coax out with nothing else connected to the 103. I imagine I could hear the same over analog. I don't think I tested this, but based on my experience, I imagine I could.

I keep mentioning the jitter over HDMI because I think this is common knowledge. I imagine the Oppo engineers know this. So why not certainly for Pure Audio switch to source direct at 720P for those who use HDMI? And since this also in my experience affects all outputs, it benefits no matter the connection. They could start with Pure Audio. I imagine those who say they now hear no difference with Pure Audio will say they do. Pure Audio makes very little difference now. Many set-up menu items that "should" not affect the sound have far more effect than this.

Then perhaps if the feedback from this is good, then switch to 720P for SACD, CD and, DVD-A. This is actually what I would prefer, but I figure the Pure Audio button has to be pushed, so if there is some reason that Oppo would not want to do the switch automatically for audio only discs, then this would be a safe start and then at least I have a one button push to optimize for audio.

I do not listen to test instruments, so I do not care if this is measurable or not, and I do not care why it sounds better. That is 720P over coax, optical and analog. Why would Oppo not switch to 720P source direct for Pure Audio when the jitter issue over HDMI is engineering explainable? I do not know what goes on internally, but I imagine the engineers would also agree that source direct could improve the sound as something is either bypassed or turned off. I do not understand the reluctance here. There is an engineering reason that 720P over HDMI sounds better and some can hear it, so why not do it? What are the drawbacks?

Are any of the bench tests jitter tests? If Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter than 1080P and it theoretically could sound better, why would they not switch to it for Pure Audio? If they do not agree that 720P has less jitter, then I can see the reluctance. I do not know if Oppo agrees that 720P has less jitter or not.

One of these days I am going to call and discuss with them.


Is it "better" or different? I have a high resolution system and have heard no difference. Charles Hansen wrote a great article on jitter and it's affect.

"Music is my religion"
Jimi Hendrix

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post #1659 of 1661 Old 07-26-2014, 02:38 PM
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^I am not sure what the "it" is you are referring to. If it is sound quality, I say the sound at 720P is better which also means it would have to be different. My experience is that most changes are clearly better or worse, but I have had a few at most that were only different.

I would like to read the article. Do you know where I can find it?
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post #1660 of 1661 Old Yesterday, 07:47 PM
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The sound appears to be improving as I use the 105D more. Overall I'm impressed and look forward to even better sound in the coming weeks and months.
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post #1661 of 1661 Old Yesterday, 09:15 PM
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Hey guys...I am having some issues dialing in my subwoofer. Using the analogue multichannel outs on the Oppp 105D to the analogue Multi in on my Pioneer Elite SC-57 AVR. At first I had both components with the same settings. Speakers to small & 80hz crossover. And the Elite has an option to increase the sub gain when using the Multi analogue so I did this. +10db.

Just felt the LFE was too hot and muddy as well. Too much bass and not as tight or defined. Did some reading on here and someone suggested changing Oppo speakers to Large and Sub yes.....leaving the AVR where it was. I also went back to the default setting of 0db for the sub instead of the +10 gain for analogue. After this change it was much much better. I played several familiar scenes Sunday afternoon and it was deep, tight, and powerful.

BUT...tonight I was listening to some concert BDs and it felt like the LFE was totally off. Anyway, I can just manually tweak it for music.

However somehow tonight, I just couldn't reproduce what I heard the other day. I know that sounds NUTS. Do you guys think there is some double processing going on? I own dual SVS PB 12/plus 2 subs but only one is working at the moment.

Just for fun I plugged in the HDMI and let my AVR decode. For starters, it's much louder. Had to really lower the volume. IDK, the bass was overall stronger and tighter at times using the HDMI so I know there is something I am overlooking or doing wrong.

Suggestions? I have been so frustrated I am ready to just forget the whole thing and listen to my plasma TV speakers.
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