Kaleidescape Cinema One Challenge - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 01:32 PM
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I tested one out and I love it. The UI is amazing and it makes everything simple for our " significant others".

However currently it's not expandable ( $4k disc changer? this is 2014?) and I am done buying physical discs ( along with the rest of the world). If Netflix gets it's way with the greedy ISP's throttling of their data ( looks like they are paying Comcast's extortion fee) - Kscape they will find themselves in the same place Kodak did.

The key is to make the drive(s) bigger/expandable/cloud based sell it for a little less and screw the disc as its a dying means of getting content.

I have been playing with a friends Plex/Drobo solution and I have to tell you - it's pretty much everything 99% of HT enthusiasts want.

I want Kscape to succeed - I just hope they can adapt quick enough with the technology and make the purchase easier to swallow.
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post #92 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by imagic View Post

Based on my experience, Vudu HDX is not at all visually equivalent to Blu-ray. It is adequate, sufficient, convenient, an acceptable substitute—but not equivalent.

 I don't mind purchasing movies; it's a rather small expense in the grand scheme of things. It all depends on what you want out of the transaction. That said, Vudu has a lot of great classic movies for rent in HDX format, and I love that aspect of the service.

Ideally, I want cloud-based delivery of Blu-ray (or better) quality visuals and sound released as early as possible.

Purchasing movies can get really expensive really fast, and the vast majority of movies are one-time watches. I could see having a small BD collection for stuff that you'd watch again, but that's not the majority of content consumption. Everything I've seen on VUDU HDX is equivalent to BD quality. I've watched some stuff that's DVD quality, and it's perfectly watchable. Once in a while I'm forced to watch an SD TV channel, now that's bad, but my Comcast system doesn't carry ESPNU in HD, so occasionally games are over there. It's painful, even with my DVDO EDGE...
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Yikes, I feel like I stumbled on a streaming video talking points memo...lets be clear here, streaming is in no way a substitute for physical media. Its an alternative. Even if you leave out quality, there are capacity issues (buffering), and many run into bandwidth caps.

There is still some stuff that's only available on physical media, but for movies, in the vast majority of use cases, streaming rentals are a replacement for owning discs. The capacity issues are a problem, since it's farther upstream from the end user. Bandwidth caps apply to everything, not just movies.
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post #93 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post


What application were you using to play your digital copies before you had to reformat your hard drive?  Vudu, Flixster, iTunes, etc.?

I was using Windows Media Center....

I havent dug enough to find everything yet today...I had a list of apps on my computer for safe keeping but I haven't found it yet....

Trying to enjoy the simple things in life.

 

Steam: madbrayniak

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post #94 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

Purchasing movies can get really expensive really fast, and the vast majority of movies are one-time watches. I could see having a small BD collection for stuff that you'd watch again, but that's not the majority of content consumption. Everything I've seen on VUDU HDX is equivalent to BD quality. I've watched some stuff that's DVD quality, and it's perfectly watchable. Once in a while I'm forced to watch an SD TV channel, now that's bad, but my Comcast system doesn't carry ESPNU in HD, so occasionally games are over there. It's painful, even with my DVDO EDGE...
There is still some stuff that's only available on physical media, but for movies, in the vast majority of use cases, streaming rentals are a replacement for owning discs. The capacity issues are a problem, since it's farther upstream from the end user. Bandwidth caps apply to everything, not just movies.

Or, I can just wait until a disc hits the price I want, lots of times get UV copy in the bargain, and get top notch audio and video, which there is no question is technically superior to streaming. Maybe you don't see/hear it, or your system masks the differences. And also, a D-BOX system won't work with streaming (yet).

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post #95 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 02:48 PM
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what about downloading the Vudu HDX instead of streaming it like you do with the blurays? or does that system not let you? unlike an HTPC would?

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post #96 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by turls View Post

Or, I can just wait until a disc hits the price I want, lots of times get UV copy in the bargain, and get top notch audio and video, which there is no question is technically superior to streaming. Maybe you don't see/hear it, or your system masks the differences. And also, a D-BOX system won't work with streaming (yet).

The disc is not superior to VUDU HDX. They are visually equivalent. Technically, HDX is more compressed, but it's beyond what a human can detect. WTF does D-BOX have to do with anything? VUDU works on many platforms...
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what about downloading the Vudu HDX instead of streaming it like you do with the blurays? or does that system not let you? unlike an HTPC would?

I don't think you can download HDX. Plus, it kind of defeats the purpose of instantly available streaming...
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post #97 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 03:06 PM
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They are not visually equivalent. Just search around this forum for comparisons. Audio also is not equivalent. You may not see or hear a difference but that does not make it so.
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post #98 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 03:16 PM
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I can download Vudu HDX videos using their player on my HTPC


anyhow as for the person that says there isnt much of a point unless your lazy to having your movies backed up, well what if your like my roommate who owns 13,000+ DVDs and Blurays, hes been ripping them all to his server and I tell you what searching for said movie verses thumbing through the collection sure makes things easier then going and getting the actual movie and putting it into the player. smile.gif

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post #99 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 03:24 PM
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mark

does Kaleidescape store offer a season pass for tv the same way itunes or vudu does IE next day airing ? wondering how the quality of tv is

thanks
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post #100 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

The disc is not superior to VUDU HDX. They are visually equivalent. Technically, HDX is more compressed, but it's beyond what a human can detect. WTF does D-BOX have to do with anything? VUDU works on many platforms.....

For some, D-Box means a lot, enough where K systems went out of their way to make their systems work with D-Box.
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post #101 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post

I can download Vudu HDX videos using their player on my HTPC


anyhow as for the person that says there isnt much of a point unless your lazy to having your movies backed up, well what if your like my roommate who owns 13,000+ DVDs and Blurays, hes been ripping them all to his server and I tell you what searching for said movie verses thumbing through the collection sure makes things easier then going and getting the actual movie and putting it into the player. smile.gif

HOLY ****. 13,000!!! Still, it would probably be faster to alphabetize them on a shelf than to rip them all...
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For some, D-Box means a lot, enough where K systems went out of their way to make their systems work with D-Box.

D-box is an extremely specialized niche product and has nothing to do with this or streaming vs. disc in general.
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post #102 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:22 PM
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Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

They are not visually equivalent. Just search around this forum for comparisons. Audio also is not equivalent. You may not see or hear a difference but that does not make it so.

It is not equivalent if you zoom in with a good SLR lens and take stills of the movie. To a HUMAN, they are exactly the same.
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post #103 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

HOLY ****. 13,000!!! Still, it would probably be faster to alphabetize them on a shelf than to rip them all...

yeah he has them broken down by genre and then in alphabetical order... I pray I am not living in his apartment when the big earthquake hits because that would suck to have to help him pick all those up and re-organize them again ^^;;

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post #104 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post


It is not equivalent if you zoom in with a good SLR lens and take stills of the movie. To a HUMAN, they are exactly the same.

 

You can see the difference with normal content, from a normal distance (for 1080p viewing) on a normal HDTV—especially when things start moving fast or in deep shadows. No pixel-peeping required.

 

Some Vudu HDX movies come closer than others to matching Blu-ray, and a few are probably visually indistinguishable to many people. Even so, a lot of movies look visibly better on Blu-ray vs. iTunes or Vudu.

 

The difference is obvious enough that I'd gladly participate in a blind test to prove the point.

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post #105 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

HOLY ****. 13,000!!! Still, it would probably be faster to alphabetize them on a shelf than to rip them all...
D-box is an extremely specialized niche product and has nothing to do with this or streaming vs. disc in general.

Your right, no K owner would ever use D-Box.rolleyes.gif
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post #106 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post


It is not equivalent if you zoom in with a good SLR lens and take stills of the movie. To a HUMAN, they are exactly the same.

Guess I am not human then watching on 70" display from 11ft as I see differences.:D

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post #107 of 187 Old 03-31-2014, 07:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post

You can see the difference with normal content, from a normal distance (for 1080p viewing) on a normal HDTV—especially when things start moving fast or in deep shadows. No pixel-peeping required.

Some Vudu HDX movies come closer than others to matching Blu-ray, and a few are probably visually indistinguishable to many people. Even so, a lot of movies look visibly better on Blu-ray vs. iTunes or Vudu.

The difference is obvious enough that I'd gladly participate in a blind test to prove the point.

I could not agree more. I don't have the visual charisma that a lot of folks here do on AVS, but even my kids and wife mention the difference when I stream vs BD. I have tried so many services and I have the best residential ISP speeds available to me (115/11) in my area.
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post #108 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post

D-box is an extremely specialized niche product and has nothing to do with this or streaming vs. disc in general.

Generalize much? D-BOX depends on getting an exact bitstream from the audio on only discs they code for. They don't code for streaming.

We get it. If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter to anybody. For audio, video, D-BOX, etc.

Matt
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post #109 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 06:36 AM
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Hi

I bought a K system a few months ago after years of experience with Escient, Sony BD changer, an HTPC setup, and other approaches

My K system consists of two Cinema One's and a Disc Vault: very happy with K: wish I had done it sooner...
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post #110 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel Chaves View Post

yeah he has them broken down by genre and then in alphabetical order... I pray I am not living in his apartment when the big earthquake hits because that would suck to have to help him pick all those up and re-organize them again ^^;;

Assuming he paid an average of $10 for each movie, $130k is a nice budget for an amazing HT with some cash left over.
However I'm guessing if he has 13,000+ discs, he probably is more the type to preorder on Amazon than the bargin bin so he probably spent around $25/ea ~ $325k.

You might want to have a chat with your roommate about re-purposing that room or two warehousing this collection.

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post #111 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by thxman View Post

I could not agree more. I don't have the visual charisma that a lot of folks here do on AVS, but even my kids and wife mention the difference when I stream vs BD. I have tried so many services and I have the best residential ISP speeds available to me (115/11) in my area.

Check to see if you can get FiOS. My FiOS service area allows me to get up to 500/100. Reasonable price is a different story.

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post #112 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post

Assuming he paid an average of $10 for each movie, $130k is a nice budget for an amazing HT with some cash left over.
However I'm guessing if he has 13,000+ discs, he probably is more the type to preorder on Amazon than the bargin bin so he probably spent around $25/ea ~ $325k.

You might want to have a chat with your roommate about re-purposing that room or two warehousing this collection.

hes more of a bargain bin shopper when it comes to his collection and hes friends with a video store rental so he buys the blurays dirt cheap when they dont need as many and so on....

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post #113 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by spike9876 View Post

This doesn't make any sense to me. Just having to put disc in for me to watch my movies is a killer... for that I insert discs in my blu ray player... If you are spending this kind of money... It is for the convenience... This is not convenient.

I currently rip my movies and use JRiver in my HTPC... and I can expand my storage as I want... They are asking 1k for a 4TB Disk cartridge.. lol, you can buy a 4TB HD for less than $200. Doesn't make any sense to ask for 5x the price.

The only thing that I see... is the space used in Kaleidescape vs when I rip my movies in mkv format. To give an example... The movie "Prisoners" takes up 32.5GB in Kaleidescape vs 26.8GB in my mkv format (I left out French subtitle and audio). This difference of 6GB seems a bit odd... maybe they use a different format ? I don't think the French subtitle and audio will make a 6GB difference... I would expect no more than 1GB.

 

All of that makes sense, except for the part where you discuss ripping movies. :eek: Hey, I know a lot of people do it but you can't fault Kaleidescape for obeying federal copyright laws.

 

Kaleidescape does offer options so that you don't have to put in the disc. Also, even when you do insert a disc to watch it, the Kaleidescape gets you right to the action within ten seconds of inserting that disc—no trailers or FBI warning.


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post #114 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Pioneer_Elte View Post

Check to see if you can get FiOS. My FiOS service area allows me to get up to 500/100. Reasonable price is a different story.
Still no FiOs for my area, been checking for last 10 years wink.gif
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post #115 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:15 AM
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All of that makes sense, except for the part where you discuss ripping movies. eek.gif  
And that is the kicker, at least for me.
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post #116 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:16 AM
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Legality... Lol. There are more laws in America than entire continents have... Who ISN'T breaking a law daily... Even those that vote for the "laws" haven't read the laws or they don't follow the law as written.

It's only the little guys like us that will get hauled off for saving our blurays on our htpc while the president can shirk the law on a daily basis.

Our founding fathers are turning in their graves.

I don't think folks that use an "HTPC" library care about the "law". The laws clearly need to be fixed and large swaths of people will disobey some laws until some of them have been eliminated or changed.

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post #117 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Legality... Lol. There are more laws in America than entire continents have... Who ISN'T breaking a law daily... Even those that vote for the "laws" haven't read the laws or they don't follow the law as written.

It's only the little guys like us that will get hauled off for saving our blurays on our htpc while the president can shirk the law on a daily basis.

Our founding fathers are turning in their graves.

I don't think folks that use an "HTPC" library care about the "law". The laws clearly need to be fixed and large swaths of people will disobey some laws until some of them have been eliminated or changed.

 

I think most people do care about the law and only break it—selectively—when it benefits them and it's easy to rationalize because "everyone else is doing it." Many people occasionally speed when they drive, for example. On the other hand, most people don't shoplift.

 

Simply put, for people who are interested in not breaking the law, Kaleidescape offers viable options—if not inexpensive ones.


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post #118 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by blazar View Post

Legality... Lol. There are more laws in America than entire continents have... Who ISN'T breaking a law daily... Even those that vote for the "laws" haven't read the laws or they don't follow the law as written.

It's only the little guys like us that will get hauled off for saving our blurays on our htpc while the president can shirk the law on a daily basis.

Our founding fathers are turning in their graves.

I don't think folks that use an "HTPC" library care about the "law". The laws clearly need to be fixed and large swaths of people will disobey some laws until some of them have been eliminated or changed.

Copy protection laws are court tested: like them or not

and to K's credit they figured out a solution that complies with the law: please don't rationalize it by saying everyone breaks the law: that is not so
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post #119 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 11:55 AM
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Purchasing movies can get really expensive really fast, and the vast majority of movies are one-time watches. I could see having a small BD collection for stuff that you'd watch again, but that's not the majority of content consumption...

 

I haven't rented a movie since the local Family Video went out of business something like 15 years ago.  To each his own but, generally speaking, I find it much more economical to read reviews, watch previews, and talk to friends as a means to determine which movies I think are worth buying before I've seen them and which ones to wait until I can watch them for free and skip the whole rental process.

 

Generally speaking, people are more willing to take risks on rentals than on purchases, due to the fact that it's less money being risked.  This means they will likely see more movies than the person who is being more scrutinizing about what they watch and buying movies without renting them first.  However, I find that the majority of movies that people rent are bad and aren't worth watching even once.  Meanwhile, the movies that are good are generally worth watching multiple times.  Movies that are worth watching once and only once are the minority.  With that in mind, the renter will find that most of the movies they watch are a complete waste of money and the next most common type of movie are those that are worth watching multiple times.  Problem is, they have to pay full price to buy a movie that they've already paid to rent.  So, they are paying more for a title than somebody who just purchased it in the first place.  Unless the person who is buying movies they haven't rented is particularly bad at judging whether a movie is worth owning based on previews, reviews, and friends they won't end up with enough duds to have made spending extra money on rentals worthwhile.  This is particularly true when there are means of watching movies that they aren't sure about essentially for free (Netflix, Crackle, etc.).

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post #120 of 187 Old 04-01-2014, 03:18 PM
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Guess I am not human then watching on 70" display from 11ft as I see differences.biggrin.gif

Unless they have some really crappy encodes, I don't believe that. That's not much different than my 60" at ~9 feet, and there is NO WAY to tell the difference, even if I sit closer than 9 feet...
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Generalize much? D-BOX depends on getting an exact bitstream from the audio on only discs they code for. They don't code for streaming.

We get it. If it doesn't matter to you, it doesn't matter to anybody. For audio, video, D-BOX, etc.

That's a bizarre and extreme niche product.
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Copy protection laws are court tested: like them or not

and to K's credit they figured out a solution that complies with the law: please don't rationalize it by saying everyone breaks the law: that is not so

Yeah actually it is true. Most normal people commit federal felonies on a regular basis, due to how broadly some of the laws are written.

On a different, but related note, the copyright laws are so insane that a whole generation of people now doesn't really care about them. The music and movie industries set themselves up for failure by being protectionist of dying business models, obsessed with DRM, etc, etc, and I don't feel one bit bad for them, they did it to themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HockeyoAJB View Post

I haven't rented a movie since the local Family Video went out of business something like 15 years ago.  To each his own but, generally speaking, I find it much more economical to read reviews, watch previews, and talk to friends as a means to determine which movies I think are worth buying before I've seen them and which ones to wait until I can watch them for free and skip the whole rental process.

Generally speaking, people are more willing to take risks on rentals than on purchases, due to the fact that it's less money being risked.  This means they will likely see more movies than the person who is being more scrutinizing about what they watch and buying movies without renting them first.  However, I find that the majority of movies that people rent are bad and aren't worth watching even once.  Meanwhile, the movies that are good are generally worth watching multiple times.  Movies that are worth watching once and only once are the minority.  With that in mind, the renter will find that most of the movies they watch are a complete waste of money and the next most common type of movie are those that are worth watching multiple times.  Problem is, they have to pay full price to buy a movie that they've already paid to rent.  So, they are paying more for a title than somebody who just purchased it in the first place.  Unless the person who is buying movies they haven't rented is particularly bad at judging whether a movie is worth owning based on previews, reviews, and friends they won't end up with enough duds to have made spending extra money on rentals worthwhile.  This is particularly true when there are means of watching movies that they aren't sure about essentially for free (Netflix, Crackle, etc.).

Rental process? I.e. picking up the Roku remote, renting a movie through VUDU HDX and enjoying? There are a TON of movies that are worth watching once that I wouldn't want to see again. I might as well see something new and different. There are a few I'd watch again. It's far cheaper to rent them, and buy the few good ones, or to just rent them again if I'm not going to watch them more than 3-4 times, where you get to the break-even point. These rules aren't rock solid, but are a good guideline. I did buy the Bond 50, just because the collection is cool, and the quality is better than Amazon streaming, where they are dirt cheap, but it wasn't an economical decision. I also buy the Planet Earth, Frozen Planet, etc, series from the BBC, as they need blu-ray, the re-runs off of TV have way too much MPEG-2 compression for that subject matter, where Blu-ray really wows.

And then there's my friend who has like 7TB of movies on his NAS, compiled from "various" sources.
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