Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread - Page 218 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #6511 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
That's interesting news and contradicts what the engineers at Samsung told me. But that's not 4K 10-Bit 4:2:0, which is what's on UHD discs, so a downconvert is happening somewhere in the chain.

When I asked if they could enable it via firmware, they told me "no," and "why would you want that?" I couldn't get through to them that I wanted exactly what was on the disc without any processing.
This was YouTube 4K/60, not a UHD disc. HDFury does not supply a 4K/24 4:2:0 10-bit BT.2020 HDR EDID for the Integral so I can't try. But I bet if they did, the Samsung would output 4K/24 4:2:0 when playing a UHD Blu-Ray disc because 4K/24 4:4:4 would be beyond the capability being reported to it.

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post #6512 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Vaughn View Post
That's interesting news and contradicts what the engineers at Samsung told me. But that's not 4K 10-Bit 4:2:0, which is what's on UHD discs, so a downconvert is happening somewhere in the chain.

When I asked if they could enable it via firmware, they told me "no," and "why would you want that?" I couldn't get through to them that I wanted exactly what was on the disc without any processing.
What?!! The engineers at Samsung contradicting themselves???

Anyways here is a picture posted by a member on this thread while the main menu is being displayed clearly showing the K8500 outputting 4:2:0 to his LG 65EF9500.

As this post goes way back and since that time there have been a couple of firmware updates perhaps @gadgtfreek or somebody with an AVR capable of displaying the source signal"s Color Space could post some new pictures in the event things have changed.



Post 1346: Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread

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post #6513 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
This was YouTube 4K/60, not a UHD disc. HDFury does not supply a 4K/24 4:2:0 10-bit BT.2020 HDR EDID for the Integral so I can't try. But I bet if they did, the Samsung would output 4K/24 4:2:0 when playing a UHD Blu-Ray disc because 4K/24 4:4:4 would be beyond the capability being reported to it.
Just so you are aware the YouTube app on the Samsung TV lineup or the K8500 is not capable of 60p.

Even though a title states that it is a 4K/60hz video such as the "Costa Rica in 4K 60fps (Ultra HD)" video, if you enable the K8500 YouTube app's SHOW VIDEO INFO setting you can see for yourself that the resolution the app is reporting in this case is 3840x2160@30 (see attached).

The fact that the display is receiving a 3840x2160x60p picture is because the player is introducing a process know as "Frame Doubling Interpolation".
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post #6514 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 10:36 PM
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And before I retire for the night @claw and @Dave Vaughn , please see the attached thumbnail for a page right out of Samsung 2015 JS series manual that indicates that the maximum chroma the SUHD TV's can handle is 4:4:4 at 8-bits or 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 at 10-bits.

So it stands to reason that even the engineers at Samsung wouldn't design their own player to output 4:4:4 while playing a disk since it could only be displayed in 8-bit on their own top of the line TVs if that was the case.
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post #6515 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 11:41 PM
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I know this topic has been beat to death...but wow the red smearing/ghosting was terrible on the Running Man blu ray.

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post #6516 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahro View Post
Now I'm uterly confused. Is the Sammy video pack movies in HDR? My BL is at 20 and contrast at 100for almost ll films like Star Trek 09, Forrest GUMP, , The counselor etc. The nly ones that are not are those cooking shows. S. Ae the movies really HDR?
Not hdr, just a glitch your tv is having.
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post #6517 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 11:50 PM
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I can't get Amazon UHD HDR to pause, FF,RW, etc. I can get it to do it when it's 1080p. What am I doing wrong?
Samsung is aware of the issue and working with amazon to fix it.
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post #6518 of 13255 Old 05-22-2016, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman View Post
I noticed some brief discussions in the owner's thread talking of some sets having more banding than others, but I haven't run across specific setting talk yet.
Wrong kind of banding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmdrdredd View Post
So write a software that doesn't do any processing to the image and sends it through. It can't be impossible. I mean it is software telling the chipset to do certain tasks. If it was told not to do those tasks it wouldn't do it. No different than on a PC where you can tell the driver to apply filtering to the image before it outputs the display and if it isn't told to do any filtering it just passes the untouched picture along. I feel that in terms of software that Samsung is kind of lazy or something. They don't even offer any notes on what fixes are included in new firmware revisions. Contacting them results in a response of "we don't know".
It's not that simple. The player is obviously capable of decoding video at 4:4:4, but that doesn't imply that either the decoding hardware is capable of outputting 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 or the player is capable of processing anything other than 4:4:4 content (post-decoding). Remember, the player needs to be able to do things like overlay its own UI on top of the decoded image. Processing — especially rendering to — 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 is very different from rendering 4:4:4, since each pixel affects the surrounding ones via the subsampled chroma channels. There's plenty of graphics hardware out there that can't write anything other than 4:4:4, only read it (though why Samsung might use such hardware in a device like this is beyond me).

However, it seems the player can output 4:2:0, but only if it thinks your TV doesn't support 4:4:4. Odd. The UBD-K8500 certainly is a bit quirky.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
With a display that only supports 4K60 4:2:0, you can get the Samsung to output 4:2:0.

I selected a 4K/60 4:2:0 EDID in a HDFury Integral device connected to the Samsung HDMI-1 out. Played a 4K/60 YouTube video on the Samsung. The Samsung outputs 4K/60 4:2:0 REC709 8-bit as the Integral reported to the Samsung that it cannot accept 4K/60 4:4:4. Attached Integral status screen:
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post #6519 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
What?!! The engineers at Samsung contradicting themselves???



Anyways here is a picture posted by a member on this thread while the main menu is being displayed clearly showing the K8500 outputting 4:2:0 to his LG 65EF9500.



As this post goes way back and since that time there have been a couple of firmware updates perhaps @gadgtfreek or somebody with an AVR capable of displaying the source signal"s Color Space could post some new pictures in the event things have changed.







Post 1346: Official Samsung UBD-K8500 4K HDR Ultra HD Blu-Ray Player Owner's Thread


That looks like SDR rec709 2160p.
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post #6520 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 12:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
With a display that only supports 4K60 4:2:0, you can get the Samsung to output 4:2:0.



I selected a 4K/60 4:2:0 EDID in a HDFury Integral device connected to the Samsung HDMI-1 out. Played a 4K/60 YouTube video on the Samsung. The Samsung outputs 4K/60 4:2:0 REC709 8-bit as the Integral reported to the Samsung that it cannot accept 4K/60 4:4:4. Attached Integral status screen:


Why bother with getting the Samsung to downcovert to SDR & rec709 2160p?

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post #6521 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 12:41 AM
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So exactly what is the K8500 outputting??? 4K/24p 10 bit 4:4:4 I would have thought. Why would it output 4K/60 4:4:4? Wouldn't Movie Frame on 'Auto' force 4K/24p? I did try it with the off setting and it looked exactly the same as the Auto setting. Without the K8500 actually displaying what it's outputting it seems to be a bit of a guessing game. Does anyone have anything concrete on what it's outputting???

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post #6522 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
Saw a few of the stutters this player is known for during Deadpool, other than that it looked great.
Are you talking about audio stutter or is it a video stutter. I have the Deadpool 4K disc and plan to watch it soon and I will see if I have the same stutter.

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post #6523 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 05:25 AM
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Are you talking about audio stutter or is it a video stutter. I have the Deadpool 4K disc and plan to watch it soon and I will see if I have the same stutter.
It is a slight video stutter. It happens fast and doesn't really bother me, but it was reported here earlier on and I have personally seen it in the two UHD movies I have watched (The Revenant and Deadpool). I have never seen it in a normal blu-ray so it seems related to UHD blu playback.

Not a big deal, but something they should fix IMO.
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post #6524 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That looks like SDR rec709 2160p.
Yep, you are correct. As stated that was a screen shot of the Main Menu and provided to @Dave Vaughn merely to demonstrate that the Samsung K8500 is / was infact capable of outputting 4:2:0 in some manner.

What we need is somebody with an AVR that can detect the output signal and display the source signal"s Color Space and post some pictures for us while playing a disk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy$ View Post
So exactly what is the K8500 outputting??? 4K/24p 10 bit 4:4:4 I would have thought. Why would it output 4K/60 4:4:4? Wouldn't Movie Frame on 'Auto' force 4K/24p? I did try it with the off setting and it looked exactly the same as the Auto setting. Without the K8500 actually displaying what it's outputting it seems to be a bit of a guessing game. Does anyone have anything concrete on what it's outputting???
It has been confirmed through various posted pictures on this thread that the K8500 is outputting 4K/24p 10 bit while playing a disk but the discussion before us is at what Color Depth.

A rhetorical question but in so much as you wouldn't want the K8500 to upconvert a 24p signal to 60p (which it isn't) why would you want it to change the Color Space to 4:4:4 when the the Blu-ray is only 4:2:0 (which Samsung Engineers told Dave Vaugn it's doing)?
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post #6525 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 05:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post
It is a slight video stutter. It happens fast and doesn't really bother me, but it was reported here earlier on and I have personally seen it in the two UHD movies I have watched (The Revenant and Deadpool). I have never seen it in a normal blu-ray so it seems related to UHD blu playback.

Not a big deal, but something they should fix IMO.

Interesting, I have played quite a few 4k disc's and have not seen that however I have had the picture completely go away and the only thing I would see is a blue screen, the same screen you would see if you didn't have the correct Hdmi input selected from the TV. What's weird is that it happened after I actually had the picture and was able to select the audio settings I wanted and than hit play and that's when the blue screen appears. It has happened twice but each time I was able to fix it by turning it off & than on again, I guess nobody has experienced an audio stutter as I did but only once. This was even easier to fix by just hitting the Pause/Play button. I will let you know if I experience the video stutter you did when I watch the Deadpool 4K disc.
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post #6526 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 05:49 AM
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I have not had any handshaking or audio issues. The stutter is fast is not a big deal IMO, but there is something going on there. It's like it slows down for a brief second or something odd. My wife did not even notice, but that is nothing new LOL.
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post #6527 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
Why bother with getting the Samsung to downcovert to SDR & rec709 2160p?
No reason. I was just pointing out that the Samsung is indeed capable of outputting 4:2:0.

CJ
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post #6528 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Yep, you are correct. As stated that was a screen shot of the Main Menu and provided to @Dave Vaughn merely to demonstrate that the Samsung K8500 is / was infact capable of outputting 4:2:0 in some manner.

What we need is somebody with an AVR that can detect the output signal and display the source signal"s Color Space and post some pictures for us while playing a disk.



It has been confirmed through various posted pictures on this thread that the K8500 is outputting 4K/24p 10 bit while playing a disk but the discussion before us is at what Color Depth.

A rhetorical question but in so much as you wouldn't want the K8500 to upconvert a 24p signal to 60p (which it isn't) why would you want it to change the Color Space to 4:4:4 when the the Blu-ray is only 4:2:0 (which Samsung Engineers told Dave Vaugn it's doing)?
The Samsung does output 4:4:4 when playing a UHD disc. Even with the HDFury Integral set at 4K60 4:2:0 10-bit, the Samsung still prefers to send 4K24 4:4:4 10-bit. This is what the Integral reports. Would need to ask the HDFury engineers why the Integral is reporting that it can accept 4K24 4:4:4 when set to report 4K60 4:2:0.
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post #6529 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 06:53 AM
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And before I retire for the night @claw and @Dave Vaughn , please see the attached thumbnail for a page right out of Samsung 2015 JS series manual that indicates that the maximum chroma the SUHD TV's can handle is 4:4:4 at 8-bits or 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 at 10-bits.

So it stands to reason that even the engineers at Samsung wouldn't design their own player to output 4:4:4 while playing a disk since it could only be displayed in 8-bit on their own top of the line TVs if that was the case.
But isn't that manual from before they enabled HDMI 2.0a on the 2015 sets?

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post #6530 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 07:09 AM
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Cool

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Originally Posted by hodges69 View Post
Apparently,I am not the only one having issues with the remote and HDR content from Amazon,including no sub-titles.Does anyone know if anything is being done to correct this? I am sure it is an Amazon problem since all is working with 1080 p.
Amazon won't even load anymore on my 65HU9000/SEK 3500. On the K8500, it behaves as you describe on HDR. I do NOT have this problem on my brand new 49KS8000 when playing Amazon HDR and I do not have the problem on other devices which have Amazon apps that do not support HDR.

Amazing that with HDR being the major selling point that it is for this year's TVs, and with Amazon being the most significant supplier of HDR for Samsungs right now, that this isn't a higher priority issue with the companies involved.
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post #6531 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Samsung does output 4:4:4 when playing a UHD disc. Even with the HDFury Integral set at 4K60 4:2:0 10-bit, the Samsung still prefers to send 4K24 4:4:4 10-bit. This is what the Integral reports. Would need to ask the HDFury engineers why the Integral is reporting that it can accept 4K24 4:4:4 when set to report 4K60 4:2:0.
You ask em!

So now yiu are agreeing with what the Samsung Engineers told @Dave Vaughn ?


I have no experience with the Integral but perhaps just like our TV's it is reporting what it will accept. For example my EDID will tell my downstream devices it is capable of 12-bit but that doesn't neccessarily mean it has a 12-bit panel in it.

As I have now stated several times it would be much better seeing a photo of somebodies AVR showing both the Output signal including the color Space from the K8500 along with what is being received by the TV so we can know for sure.

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post #6532 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 07:20 AM
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I think we're all asking for the same thing, but in the interest of people joining the party late:

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Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Yep, you are correct. As stated that was a screen shot of the Main Menu and provided to @Dave Vaughn merely to demonstrate that the Samsung K8500 is / was infact capable of outputting 4:2:0 in some manner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
No reason. I was just pointing out that the Samsung is indeed capable of outputting 4:2:0.
But apparently only from HD, not UHD. It's nice that it can do what $30 Blu-ray players do from a decade ago (output 4-2-0 from HD BR). It would be even better if it could do that with UHD BR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claw View Post
The Samsung does output 4:4:4 when playing a UHD disc. Even with the HDFury Integral set at 4K60 4:2:0 10-bit, the Samsung still prefers to send 4K24 4:4:4 10-bit. This is what the Integral reports. Would need to ask the HDFury engineers why the Integral is reporting that it can accept 4K24 4:4:4 when set to report 4K60 4:2:0.
This may be another Samsung fluke, I suspect. Samsung appears to ignore some of what the receiving device tells it to send.
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post #6533 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 07:28 AM
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But isn't that manual from before they enabled HDMI 2.0a on the 2015 sets?
Ha, ha... nice try. You're just trying to trick me!

This is from the latest User Manual ver.1.0 (ENGLISH, 7.51 MB) released 13-Sep-2015 also known as ENG-US_HPATSCJ-1.314-0819.PDF available on their website.

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post #6534 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:20 AM
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The highest colour space/chroma my Philips 4K TV will handle is 4.2.0, as advised to me by the Philips engineers (I assume they should know what they are talking about). It is showing on the information that it is playing from a UHD 4K disc at 2160p/24fps. It does not display the colour space. So that via the HDMI handshake, even if the Samsung is capable of sending 4.4.4, it is not doing so, as that could not be read by my TV and it cannot downgrade the chroma internally, so it must be the K8500 that is doing so. Even if I change manually to 4.4.4 colour on K8500, the info on the TV does not change and it carries on playing as before with no noticeable effect on the appearance, so presumably the Samsung is (very sensibly) ignoring my instruction due to the handshake via the HDMI.
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post #6535 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:23 AM
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Thanks for summarizing the conversation (that I regret joining ) but just a point of clarification...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
But apparently only from HD, not UHD. It's nice that it can do what $30 Blu-ray players do from a decade ago (output 4-2-0 from HD BR). It would be even better if it could do that with UHD BR.
Here is a thumbnail from my TV screen showing the signal it is receiving from the player [3840 x 2160 / 60p] when the Main Menu is being displayed versus [3840 x 2160 / 24p] when a disk is playing but unfortunately it doesn't provide the missing piece of the puzzle -- the Color Space.

So assuming the photo that @gadgtfreek posted way back when showing the player passing 4:2:0 from the main menu was outputting 2160p at the time then maybe it can infact output 4:2:0 from a UHD BR disk... if Samsung wanted it too.
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Samsung UN78HU9000 - Firmware 1510.3 SEK-3500U
Samsung UN40HU7000 - Firmware 1510.3 SEK-3500U
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Arris VIP5662W UHD Whole Home DVR; Chromecast Ultra
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Last edited by Musician; 05-23-2016 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Typo
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post #6536 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Musician View Post
Thanks for summarizing the conversation (that I regret joining ) but just a point of clarification...



Here is a thumbnail from my TV screen showing the signal it is receiving from the player [3840 x 2160 / 60p] when the Main Menu is being displayed versus [3840 x 2160 / 24p20] when a disk is playing but unfortunately it doesn't provide the missing piece of the puzzle -- the Color Space.

So assuming the photo that @gadgtfreek posted way back when showing the player passing 4:2:0 from the main menu was outputting 2160p at the time then maybe it can infact output 4:2:0 from a UHD BR disk... if Samsung wanted it too.
That screen shot ALSO showed it was an 8 bit signal (ie, SDR and rec709) so that's not a great example, imo, for those wanting HDR and or rec202 WCG.

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post #6537 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Rosenberg View Post
Amazon won't even load anymore on my 65HU9000/SEK 3500. On the K8500, it behaves as you describe on HDR. I do NOT have this problem on my brand new 49KS8000 when playing Amazon HDR and I do not have the problem on other devices which have Amazon apps that do not support HDR.

Amazing that with HDR being the major selling point that it is for this year's TVs, and with Amazon being the most significant supplier of HDR for Samsungs right now, that this isn't a higher priority issue with the companies involved.
Sent them a rather scathingly e-mail last night....will be interesting to read their reply...of course,I expect nothing more than company propaganda...
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post #6538 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
I think we're all asking for the same thing, but in the interest of people joining the party late:





But apparently only from HD, not UHD. It's nice that it can do what $30 Blu-ray players do from a decade ago (output 4-2-0 from HD BR). It would be even better if it could do that with UHD BR.



This may be another Samsung fluke, I suspect. Samsung appears to ignore some of what the receiving device tells it to send.
I agree that this discussion is getting out of hand. Sorry about the confusion.

My original post was only to reply and point out that it is indeed possible to get the Samsung player to output 4:2:0; not just 4:4:4. Although I am currently only able to do that with 4K/60 videos from YouTube which I can accomplish with an HDFury Integral. With the Integral I can get 4K/60 4:2:0 8-bit from the Samsung YouTube app. Without the Integral the YouTube videos are output at 4K/60 4:4:4 8-bit. This is a 600 MHz signal which can cause sync issues with longer HDMI cable lengths. This is reason I purchased the Integral in the first place; to limit the bandwidth.

I am not able to get the Samsung to send 4K/24 4:2:0 for UHD disc playback. It always sends 4K/24 4:4:4. But I was guessing that if HDFury provided an additional EDID option for 4K/24 4:2:0 10-bit; the Samsung might send 4:2:0 in that case.
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post #6539 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Rosenberg View Post
Amazon won't even load anymore on my 65HU9000/SEK 3500. On the K8500, it behaves as you describe on HDR. I do NOT have this problem on my brand new 49KS8000 when playing Amazon HDR and I do not have the problem on other devices which have Amazon apps that do not support HDR.

Amazing that with HDR being the major selling point that it is for this year's TVs, and with Amazon being the most significant supplier of HDR for Samsungs right now, that this isn't a higher priority issue with the companies involved.
I looked at some of two separate HDR titles this weekend from the Amazon app on the K8500. I had no issues with them.

Although I think it was thursday night that one HDR title I tried never loaded. I got a black screen.

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post #6540 of 13255 Old 05-23-2016, 08:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan_h View Post
That screen shot ALSO showed it was an 8 bit signal (ie, SDR and rec709) so that's not a great example, imo, for those wanting HDR and or rec202 WCG.
Yep, from the menu as stated in @gadgtfreek 's post.

Never said it was a great example, rather I am hoping somebody with an AVR can post some showing 10-bit being passed along with the Color Space.

I have no idea what disk @gadgtfreek had in the player at the time, what settings he was using, or the capabilities of his display. Repeat, the reason I posted that particular shot was to at least demonstrate the player can ouput 4:2:0 so if it can do it at SDR / Rec 709 as you say it is... then why not 4:2:0 at HDR / Rec 2020?

I have seen lots of shots from users showing 10 bit and 12 bit being passed from the player but can't find any showing the Color Space.

Until then...

Samsung UN78HU9000 - Firmware 1510.3 SEK-3500U
Samsung UN40HU7000 - Firmware 1510.3 SEK-3500U
Samsung UBD-K8500 UHD Blu-ray Player; Apple TV 4K
Arris VIP5662W UHD Whole Home DVR; Chromecast Ultra
Marantz SR7005 Receiver; Magnepan Speakers; Martin Logan Subwoofer

Last edited by Musician; 05-23-2016 at 08:45 AM.
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