Official OPPO UDP-203 Owner's Thread - Page 9 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #241 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post
No self respecting Oppo beta tester would own a Samsuck player. Just sayin...
851 posts in the Samsung 1400 owners thread begs to differ!
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post #242 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:10 PM
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Originally Posted by wile3coyote View Post
According to the instruction manual, it does:

"Stretch – The image is vertically stretched 1.33 times. For movies with 2.35:1 aspect ratio, this zoom
level cuts off the black borders at the top and bottom of the image. Users of a projector with an
anamorphic lens may find this mode helpful."
Wonderful!! Though less critical with the JVC than with my previous Sony 600ES.

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post #243 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by t_tringle View Post
Actually went back and i did not reverse it.

The manual says "All discs are encoded in YCbCr 4:2:0 color space, and the video decoder decodes it into YCbCr 4:2:2"

So i take it to mean that for less converting of Discs, 4:2:2 would be best no?

right end of the chain to a panel is always 4:2:2 i also thought output at 4:2:2 would be the best choice.

what about source direct like the other players. . . wouldn't the color space output at 4:2:0 then vs the 4:2:2? then t he panel cold do the conversion if one wanted to vs the player?

when you output at 4:2:2 is it always it would always be 12 bit then cause the HDMI spec doesn't support anything lower. so could one possible have issues with picture quality if their panel can not handle a 12 bit signal to 10 bit output since all panels right now are 10 bit?

jim

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post #244 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
When using 4:4:4, you can get 4K/24 4:4:4 up to 12b into the E6, but 4K/60 4:4:4 will be limited to 8b. (10b and 12b exceed the HDMI bandwidth spec.)

When using 4:2:2, you can get up to 12b for both 4K/24 4:2:2 and 4K/60 4:2:2.
--Bob
And that's where I get lost. This player is getting connected to a Marantz Av8802a and then going to LG OLED65E6P.

So I want 10 bit/4:4:4?
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post #245 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:17 PM
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And that's where I get lost. This player is getting connected to a Marantz Av8802a and then going to LG OLED65E6P.

So I want 10 bit/4:4:4?
I don't know what the Marantz can handle. I was talking about HDMI direct to the E6.

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post #246 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
For your reference needs: OPPO UDP-203 Settings Checklist.

-Bill
this is really nice for reference. i think it should be linked in the first post so it doesn't get buried.

jim
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post #247 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
I don't know what the Marantz can handle. I was talking about HDMI direct to the E6.

--Bob
that goes back to what i asked above also. if we go 4:2:2 out of the player sot here is less conversions we would have to go out at 12 bit cause it's all that is handled by the cdmi spec so would that be a problem with say the LG OLED's of this year?

if you go out at 4:4:4 at 10 bit ( allowed) you would have a conversion back to 4:2:2 at the tv.

so which is the lesser of 2 evils say?
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post #248 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:42 PM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
right end of the chain to a panel is always 4:2:2 i also thought so output at 4:2:2 would be the best.

what about source direct like the other players. . . wouldn't the color space output at 4:2:0 then vs the 4:2:2? then t he panel cold do the conversion if one wanted to vs the player?

when you output at 4:2:2 is it always it would always be 12 bit then cause the HDMI spec doesn't support anything lower. so could one possible have issues with picture quality if their panel can not handle a 12 bit signal to 10 bit output since all panels right now are 10 bit?

jim
With 4:2:2 you can select which Color Depth you want to use -- UP TO 12b. You aren't stuck at 12b. 12b is just the upper limit.

You can do the same with 4:4:4 for /24 content (such as UHD disc movies). But for /60 content (live concerts on regular Blu-ray or SD-DVD's upscaled without DVD 24p Conversion) the HDMI spec won't allow 4K/60 4:4:4 higher than 8b. 10b and 12b require too high bandwidth for the HDMI spec.

You can also use 4:2:0 -- up to 12b -- but the HDMI timing specs only allow 4:2:0 for 4K/50 and 4k/60. It isn't legal for any other Resolution/Frame-rate combo. If you try to force 4:2:0 (at any bit depth) for 4K/24 output, or 1080p/60 output, or anything other than 4K/50 or 4K/60, the player will use 4:2:2 instead, since it can't put out a legal HDMI signal with 4:2:0.

----------------------------------

Some basics here:

4:4:4 is jargon that means every pixel has its own, individual color data as well as its brightness data (gray scale).

4:2:2 means color information is present only half as often horizontally as brightness information. With 3 components to the data: Y for luminance (brightness) and Cb and Cr for how to color that brightness. This means the data along a given line goes Y, Cb, Y, Cr, Y, Cb, Y, Cr, etc.

4:2:0 means color information is present only half as often as brightness information *BOTH* horizontally and vertically. This is the format the data is stored on the disc, because it takes less space to store each image. This WORKS because the human eye is far less sensitive to resolution in colors than in gray scale.

4:2:0 is used for SD-DVD, Blu-ray, and now UHD.

But if you think about it, every pixel on the display needs its own color before it can light up! That means before the pixels light up the 4:2:0 coming off the disc has to be raised to 4:4:4. This process -- called Color Upsampling -- happens vertically to go from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 and horizontally to go from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Think of it as a special type of upscaling -- except just for colors! The colors for a given pixel are established by using math on the color values found in the data near that pixel.

So do you want the player to do those two stages of Color Upsampling, or do you want the TV to do it? It's your choice. But it's going to happen one way or another, because every pixel has to have its own color before it can light up: 4:4:4.

(RGB, by the way, is always 4:4:4, in the sense that every pixel gets its own R, G, and B, values which define both its brightness and its color.)

------------------------------------

Three components per pixel -- either Y, Cb, and Cr, or R, G, and B. The Color Depth is the number of bits used for each component. So Color Depth 12-bits means 36 bits total per pixel.

But if you send YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over the HDMI cable, the color components aren't being transmitted as often as the luminance (Y) components. So 4K/24 4:2:2 12b is lower bandwidth on the HDMI cable than 4K/24 4:4:4 12b. And 4K/24 4:2:0 12b is lower still!

If you don't mind the display doing the Color Upsampling, sending 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 would be the natural choice because that means less bandwidth on the HDM cable and thus less chance of HDMI signal problems.

But it is possible to SCREW UP Color Upsampling. If the player does it right and the TV does it wrong (in some cases) you'd want the player to do it.

Since we are talking about bugs here, there's little logic to it -- little ability to predict what will happen. You can just try it and SEE if things look better with the player down the Color Upsampling.

If not, send the lower bandwidth format (fewer HDMI problems) and let the TV do the Color Upsampling.

As an added complication, not all TVs will accept all formats. The Player will sort this out during the HDMI handshake -- sending a legal signal that the TV says it can accept -- trying to stay as close as possible to what you TOLD the player to send out. And you can use the on-screen Info displays from the Player to see what's actually happening -- what's actually being sent to the TV.

----------------------------------

Then there's Color Depth. SD-DVD and Blu-ray are on disc as 8b. Current UHD discs -- which use HDR-10 for their HDR -- use 10b.

So why use 12b? Where would the extra bits COME FROM? Well where they come from is ROUNDING in the video processing. As such the real difference in 12b vs 10b *SHOULD* be subtle. But now we are back to bugs. Some displays will handle 12b better than 10b -- just a characteristic of how they process video. Other displays will receive 12b and immediately strip off the low order bits turning it into 10b. For those displays, sending 12b is a waste of bandwidth.

Confused yet? Then I suggest you start with the AUTO settings for Resolution, Color Space and Color Depth then, until you have time to experiment and see if you find reason to prefer something different.
--Bob
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post #249 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:44 PM
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How do you calibrate a projector for 4K / SDR / bt.2020?
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post #250 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:52 PM
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For the "auto" setting on resolution, does that mean ALL video will be upscale to 4K? My current Sony only upscale to 4K for letter-boxed dvds. Haven't found any of my blu-ray to upscale to 4K as none have been shown as 4K input on my Samsung.

Just wondering if preferable to get a non-4K streamer & let the 203 do the upscale as only interested in Amazon & YouTube now.
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post #251 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:54 PM
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How do you calibrate a projector for 4K / SDR / bt.2020?
With professional calibration tools you can select the results you are trying to achieve, send the appropriate test signals, and adjust the display until the measured light output hits your targets.

If you are looking to do it with, something like a consumer level calibration disc I'm pretty sure you are out of luck at the moment. The discs don't exist yet.

There's a whole forum here on display calibration where folks dive deep into such stuff.
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post #252 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:58 PM
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For the "auto" setting on resolution, does that mean ALL video will be upscale to 4K? My current Sony only upscale to 4K for letter-boxed dvds. Haven't found any of my blu-ray to upscale to 4K as none have been shown as 4K input on my Samsung.

Just wondering if preferable to get a non-4K streamer & let the 203 do the upscale as only interested in Amazon & YouTube now.
Auto resolution means the player sends the TV what the TV publishes (during the HDMI handshake) as its "preferred" video input resolution.

For 4K displays, that will likely be 4K. Some displays will have settings you need to make to configure their HDMI Inputs to accept different HDMI formats.
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post #253 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 06:59 PM
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For the "auto" setting on resolution, does that mean ALL video will be upscale to 4K?
It will upscale everything to the resolution agreed upon between the player and the display. If that is a 4K display you might as well specify this in the player with one of the UHD (=4k) settings.

Quote:
My current Sony only upscale to 4K for letter-boxed dvds.
??

Quote:
Haven't found any of my blu-ray to upscale to 4K as none have been shown as 4K input on my Samsung.
???

-Bill
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post #254 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:09 PM
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Nine pages down, and I am still holding my breath for a few screenshots of its display capabilities. Info screen anyone? Please... Or is there still a moratorium on releasing those pictures?
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post #255 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:13 PM
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Nine pages down, and I am still holding my breath for a few screenshots of its display capabilities. Info screen anyone? Please... Or is there still a moratorium on releasing those pictures?
I'll do it tomorrow if no one else does. What do you want for a disc: DVD, BR or UHD?

-Bill

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post #256 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
With 4:2:2 you can select which Color Depth you want to use -- UP TO 12b. You aren't stuck at 12b. 12b is just the upper limit.

You can do the same with 4:4:4 for /24 content (such as UHD disc movies). But for /60 content (live concerts on regular Blu-ray or SD-DVD's upscaled without DVD 24p Conversion) the HDMI spec won't allow 4K/60 4:4:4 higher than 8b. 10b and 12b require too high bandwidth for the HDMI spec.

You can also use 4:2:0 -- up to 12b -- but the HDMI timing specs only allow 4:2:0 for 4K/50 and 4k/60. It isn't legal for any other Resolution/Frame-rate combo. If you try to force 4:2:0 (at any bit depth) for 4K/24 output, or 1080p/60 output, or anything other than 4K/50 or 4K/60, the player will use 4:2:2 instead, since it can't put out a legal HDMI signal with 4:2:0.

----------------------------------

Some basics here:

4:4:4 is jargon that means every pixel has its own, individual color data as well as its brightness data (gray scale).

4:2:2 means color information is present only half as often horizontally as brightness information. With 3 components to the data: Y for luminance (brightness) and Cb and Cr for how to color that brightness. This means the data along a given line goes Y, Cb, Y, Cr, Y, Cb, Y, Cr, etc.

4:2:0 means color information is present only half as often as brightness information *BOTH* horizontally and vertically. This is the format the data is stored on the disc, because it takes less space to store each image. This WORKS because the human eye is far less sensitive to resolution in colors than in gray scale.

4:2:0 is use for SD-DVD, Blu-ray, and now UHD.

But if you think about it, every pixel on the display needs its own color before it can light up! That means before the pixels light up the 4:2:0 coming off the disc has to be raised to 4:4:4. This process -- called Color Upsampling -- happens vertically to go from 4:2:0 to 4:2:2 and horizontally to go from 4:2:2 to 4:4:4. Think of it as a special type of upscaling -- except just for colors! The colors for a given pixel are established by using math on the color values found in the data near that pixel.

So do you want the player to do those two stages of Color Upsampling, or do you want the TV to do it? It's your choice. But it's going to happen one way or another, because every pixel has to have its own color before it can light up: 4:4:4.

(RGB, by the way, is always 4:4:4, in the sense that every pixel gets its own R, G, and B, values which define both its brightness and its color.)

------------------------------------

Three components per pixel -- either Y, Cb, and Cr, or R, G, and B. The Color Depth is the number of bits used for each component. So Color Depth 12-bits means 36 bits total per pixel.

But if you send YCbCr 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 over the HDMI cable, the color components aren't being transmitted as often as the luminance (Y) components. So 4K/24 4:2:2 12b is lower bandwidth on the HDMI cable than 4K/24 4:4:4 12b. And 4K/24 4:2:0 12b is lower still!

If you don't mind the display doing the Color Upsampling, sending 4:2:0 or 4:2:2 would be the natural choice because that means less bandwidth on the HDM cable and thus less chance of HDMI signal problems.

But it is possible to SCREW UP Color Upsampling. If the player does it right and the TV does it wrong (in some cases) you'd want the player to do it.

Since we are talking about bugs here, there's little logic to it -- little ability to predict what will happen. You can just try it and SEE if things look better with the player down the Color Upsampling.

If not, send the lower bandwidth format (fewer HDMI problems) and let the TV do the Color Upsampling.

As an added complication, not all TVs will accept all formats. The Player will sort this out during the HDMI handshake -- sending a legal signal that the TV says it can accept -- trying to stay as close as possible to what you TOLD the player to send out. And you can use the on-screen Info displays from the Player to see what's actually happening -- what's actually being sent to the TV.

----------------------------------

Then there's Color Depth. SD-DVD and Blu-ray are on disc as 8b. Current UHD discs -- which use HDR-10 for their HDR -- use 10b.

So why use 12b? Where would the extra bits COME FROM? Well where they come from is ROUNDING in the video processing. As such the real difference in 12b vs 10b *SHOULD* be subtle. But now we are back to bugs. Some displays will handle 12b better than 10b -- just a characteristic of how they process video. Other displays will receive 12b and immediately strip off the low order bits turning it into 10b. For those displays, sending 12b is a waste of bandwidth.

Confused yet? Then I suggest you start with the AUTO settings for Resolution, Color Space and Color Depth then, until you have time to experiment and see if you find reason to prefer something different.
--Bob
Bob,

That's an awesome post. I really really appreciate it. You made it pretty easy to understand. Maybe I missed it though, but

1. Say I send out the signal as 4:4:4, 4K 24 since let's talk ultra bluray movies for ease. Doesn't the panel have to change nevertheless it back to 4:2:2 cause the panel can only display the signal in its final output at 4:2:2? If so is that the smart choice cause even if you sent it as 4:2:2 out of the player there still needs to be a 4:4:4 conversion and back because of the horizontal conversion still needs to be complete to light up the pixels?

jim
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post #257 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:19 PM
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Doesn't the panel have to change nevertheless it back to 4:2:2 cause the panel can only display the signal in its final output at 4:2:2?
I've never heard that before. Doesn't each pixel need full color information before it can be displayed? That means 4:4:4.

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post #258 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:20 PM
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Nine pages down, and I am still holding my breath for a few screenshots of its display capabilities. Info screen anyone? Please... Or is there still a moratorium on releasing those pictures?
Obviously not a true representation of its picture quality.
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post #259 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:21 PM
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Thanks Bill. I would love to see what the information display actually shows... If I am not mistaken, it's supposed to show what's output by the player, and what shows up after the handshake with the TV/projector. Is it achieved with the "INFO" button on the remote?

And anything else that you found interesting and/or add value.

Thanks again.
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post #260 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:22 PM
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Here you go.
That's the normal Info display, the hold-Info display has a lot more info...
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post #261 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
It will upscale everything to the resolution agreed upon between the player and the display. If that is a 4K display you might as well specify this in the player with one of the UHD (=4k) settings.



??



???

-Bill
I think my problem was not setting the hdmi input on the Samsung KS9000 to do HDR/UHD when I was checking the TV. My mistake as I just loaded a blu-ray & the KS9000 shows 4K input video. Had thought that the "default" would take care of that on a 4K TV.
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post #262 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:27 PM
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Well... no one has mentioned it yet, but there must a push for disabilities compliance coming from somewhere.

The Setup Menu has a Text-to-Speech capability (good only for those menus as far as I know).

Ancient DVD Closed Captions are supported, which was a request from years past, although not so important now. CC is what we had before proper subtitles and support has been non-existent since HDMI came in. I have used it.

-Bill

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post #263 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:28 PM
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That's the normal Info display, the hold-Info display has a lot more info...
As a start, I would like to see what it displays... along with anything else you guys find interesting.
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post #264 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by jimim View Post
Bob,

That's an awesome post. I really really appreciate it. You made it pretty easy to understand. Maybe I missed it though, but

1. Say I send out the signal as 4:4:4, 4K 24 since let's talk ultra bluray movies for ease. Doesn't the panel have to change nevertheless it back to 4:2:2 cause the panel can only display the signal in its final output at 4:2:2? If so is that the smart choice cause even if you sent it as 4:2:2 out of the player there still needs to be a 4:4:4 conversion and back because of the horizontal conversion still needs to be complete to light up the pixels?

jim
Think about it. The actually physical elements that light up -- the pixels -- each need their own individual colors. That means 4:4:4.

Now, all panels do various bits of video processing before they light up the pixels. SOME panels do that in 4:2:2. Of course the have to raise that to 4:4:4 before they can light up the pixels, but if you send them 4:4:4 what happens is first they down sample that to 4:2:2, do their video processing, and then up sample that back to 4:4:4.

Why do processing in 4:2:2? Because just as on the HDMI cable, 4:2:2 is a lower bandwidth signal than 4:4:4 (at a give resolution and color depth). And a 4K image is A LOT of data. So if you can cut down the data you don't need quite as fast (i.e., expensive) video processing hardware.

Now some of the panel experts here may know what a given panel uses for its internal video processing. I don't.

-------------------------------------

Similarly, some panels tout, say, 12 or 14 bit video processing. That's the color depth in their video processing signal path. But the PIXELS for consumer displays I believe still top out at 10 bits. I.e., the physical pixel elements can't distinguish finer than 10 bits.

Now does that mean you should only send them 10 bits? Not at all! If the player is preserving rounding values in 12 bit output, and the video processing in the TV is USING those bits -- and in fact maybe with a bit or two EXTRA for additional rounding finesse -- this is all to the GOOD. Despite the fact that the result gets effectively truncated back to 10 bits when the pixels light up. Those are MORE ACCURATE 10 bit results because of the extra color depth in (1) the processing in the player, (2) the signal on the HDMI cable which lets those rounding bits be preserved from player to TV, and (3) the processing in the TV.

There's more going on here than you can shake a stick at, and so it's really tough for the average enthusiast to be able to state, definitively that such and so format is best. The subtleties in the processing, and the BUGS which crop up all too often in this sort of gear, often mean you should just try the candidate format combos and see which, if any, look better!
--Bob

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Last edited by Bob Pariseau; 12-12-2016 at 07:32 PM.
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post #265 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gsr View Post
That's the normal Info display, the hold-Info display has a lot more info...
Good reminder
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post #266 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post
I've never heard that before. Doesn't each pixel need full color information before it can be displayed? That means 4:4:4.

-Bill
That's was mentioned to me over in the samsung thread. Cause it came up over there.

So if the panel had to output 4:4:4 in the end then 4:4:4 totally makes sense but then you would have to have the player in pc mode anyway cause you need to be in pc mode to properly display 4:4:4?

So I guess that's where I'm confused.

Let's say you send 4:4:4.

If you go into pc mode.
In pc mode you output 4:4:4 at end of conversion out of panel?

If non pc mode.
In non pc mode you output 4:2:2 at the end of conversion out of panel? Cause not in pc mode?
So then it would make sense to send 4:2:2 vs 4:4:4 if you didn't want to use pc mode on panel?

That's only if what I say is true and I understand it correctly.

Again I'm very sorry if I'm wrong. I just want to understand it. I'm not trying to confuse anyone.

Jim

Ps

Bob I just read ur post before I posted this. but then I think I just confused myself with. Pc mode vs non pc mode?

Last edited by jimim; 12-12-2016 at 07:39 PM.
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post #267 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Sam S View Post
Good reminder
The slider on the right is all the way up, which means there's more info lurking downwards. A few more screenshots if you don't mind, please
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post #268 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:34 PM
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What's PC mode? I don't think what you are writing is correct.

-Bill

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post #269 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:35 PM
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^ That Extended Info display scrolls down to show 3 pages worth of data on the content audio and video stats, the output video and the output audio.

For example, for UHD discs with HDR-10 authoring, the Extended Info will reveal whether the disc has been authored to a 1,000 nits max luminance target or 4,000 nits.

You can also get separate content data rates for video and audio. For 3D mvc format you can get both the main and secondary video data rates. Updated in real time.
--Bob
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post #270 of 20678 Old 12-12-2016, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post
^ That Extended Info display scrolls down to show 3 pages worth of data on the content audio and video states, the output video and the output audio.

For example, for UHD discs with HDR-10 authoring, the Extended Info will reveal whether the disc has been authored to a 1,000 nits max luminance target or 4,000 nits.

You can also get separate content data rates for video and audio. For 3D mvc format you can get both the main and secondary video data rates. Updated in real time.
--Bob
Wow, you can consistently post excellent info real quick. It actually has been taking me longer to read and understand compared to your writing. Great info, thank you.
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