Reality check: reading the blu-ray spec. - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 08:51 AM
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Actually, there are Blu-ray units shipping, just not to America. Also, mpeg-2 was the first decoder to be used. Remember Blu-ray has been available and in-use in Japan for some time now (over a year, I believe), as a recording/timeshifting unit.

I have not heard of a single HD-DVD unit shipping in any country.
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post #32 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 10:57 AM
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AVC is Part 10, IIRC. ITU (H.264) and MPEG (MPEG-4 AVC) jointly worked together to bring this video codec.

When people talk about MPEG-4, nowadays, it usually means MPEG-4 AVC HP.

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post #33 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Where does it say that MPEG-2 will be the first decoder to be used? Also once again I would recommend reading the BD-ROM specs which may answer many of your questions. BD-ROM can use MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC HP, and VC-1 for video along with Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Doby Digital Lossless (formerly called MLP), DTS, DTS-HD Lossy, DTS-HD Lossless, and PCM for audio. Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have the exact same video/audio codecs.
BluRay does not support Dolby Digital Plus or MLP. And MLP is not now know as Dolby Digital Lossless, you need to find reliable sources and carefully read them.
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post #34 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 12:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Q. Where did you see "all three codecs are required" ?

A. for the players. It was mentioned all over the place try http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/d..._0305-12955.pdf in section 3.3

The spec mentioned does not use the word "required", it says:

BDROM provides an easy-to-author framework for creation of
High Definition movie experiences known as "HDMV",
(High Definition Movie) mode.

...

Here are some of the key features offered by HDMV:

...

MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC.....

Sorry I cannot cut and paste from this document, I encourage reading the
original.

The format "offers" MPEG-4, thats a long way from saying "the first discs
will be in MPEG-4 format".

Now read what the blu-ray site says here:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/general_i...564/Index.html

"Also on the application layer, the HD-DVD format incorporates many compromises. As the capacity is not likely to be sufficient to encode a full-length feature plus additional bonus materials using the MPEG-2 format, different and stronger encoding formats need to be used. Although Blu-ray Disc offers these advanced codecs as well, the disc has such high capacity that publishers can still use the MPEG-2 encoding format at bitrates up to 54 Mbit/sec. As MPEG-2 is the de-facto standard used in almost any industry involved in digital video (DVD, HDTV, digital broadcast), many authoring solutions are available. Chances are high that a full line MPEG-2 encoding suite is already available, which can be used with no or minor adaptations to encode High Definition content for Blu-ray Disc."

Note that again, the word used is "offers".

This is not new, the Blu-ray group has touted from day one that their big advantage is
allowing the use of the present mpeg-2 format.

So, at the risk of beating this dead horse into the ground, again, there is every reason
to expect that the first discs out in BD format will be mpeg-2, and single layer.

Again, I encourage anyone wanting the facts to read this information for him/herself
at:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #35 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 12:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
BluRay does not support Dolby Digital Plus or MLP. And MLP is not now know as Dolby Digital Lossless, you need to find reliable sources and carefully read them.
Okay, try downloading this PDF and go to page 18. We just heard it first in one of the threads around here about DD Plus finally being included in BD.

What's interesting is the difference between DD Plus Lossless and DTS HD Lossless - 6.86 Mbps. It's still all good!


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post #36 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
BluRay does not support Dolby Digital Plus or MLP. And MLP is not now know as Dolby Digital Lossless, you need to find reliable sources and carefully read them.
Dolby Lossless (also called Dolby Digital Lossless) was announced about a week ago. Don't ask me why they changed the name of MLP, but it is now called Dolby Lossless. Just posted some information on it in relation to Blu-ray.


Quote:
Originally posted by WriteSimple
What's interesting is the difference between DD Plus Lossless and DTS HD Lossless - 6.86 Mbps. It's still all good!
Found that a bit strange to but since both codecs are limited to 96kHz for 7/8 channel audio it shouldn't make to much of a difference.
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post #37 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 01:02 PM
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Okay, try downloading this PDF and go to page 18.
Thanks for the up-to date specs, not like the one in the other post.

Quote:
Dolby Lossless (also called Dolby Digital Lossless) was announced about a week ago
Why is Sony calling MLP Dolby Lossless, when Dolby calls it MLP? They just license it, they don't own it, Meridian does.
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post #38 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by samiam95124
This is not new, the Blu-ray group has touted from day one that their big advantage is allowing the use of the present mpeg-2 format.

So, at the risk of beating this dead horse into the ground, again, there is every reason to expect that the first discs out in BD format will be mpeg-2, and single layer.
Sam, both formats can decode MPEG-2 so this isn't that big of a deal. In fact if the studios wanted they could use MPEG-2 for HD-DVD. Also Blu-ray will offer dual layer discs next spring which is also when pre-recorded Blu-ray launches. I do not know what the studios will use but that will be an option. You seem to be trying to say the worst about Blu-ray and there is no need for that. If you want to argue for HD-DVD then I would recommend doing that.


Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
Thanks for the up-to date specs, not like the one in the other post.
When I posted that link two days ago it was up to date :).


Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
Why is Sony calling MLP Dolby Lossless, when Dolby calls it MLP? They just license it, they don't own it, Meridian does.
I believe Dolby has bought the rights to the MLP codec and will now market it as Dolby Lossless. Also out of curiosity who said anything about Sony?
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post #39 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Don't ask me why they changed the name of MLP, but it is now called Dolby Lossless.
Not quite correct.

Dolby Lossless has a Dolby Digital stream and a MLP stream.

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post #40 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
When I posted that link two days ago it was up to date :).
I was talking about this whitepaper mentioned here
Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Where does it say that MPEG-2 will be the first decoder to be used? Also once again I would recommend reading the BD-ROM specs which may answer many of your questions. BD-ROM can use MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC HP, and VC-1 for video along with Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus, Doby Digital Lossless (formerly called MLP), DTS, DTS-HD Lossy, DTS-HD Lossless, and PCM for audio. Both Blu-ray and HD-DVD have the exact same video/audio codecs.

Quote:
I believe Dolby has bought the rights to the MLP codec and will now market it as Dolby Lossless. Also out of curiosity who said anything about Sony?
It seems only sony (and people here) is refering to as Dolby Lossless

Quote:
Originally posted by kjack
Not quite correct.

Dolby Lossless has a Dolby Digital stream and a MLP stream.
ok, that makes sence.
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post #41 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by kjack
Dolby Lossless has a Dolby Digital stream and a MLP stream.
Interesting, does Dolby Lossless also include Dolby Digital Plus with MLP?


Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
I was talking about this whitepaper mentioned here
I know that was the one I was referring to. I guess I should have said in my original post that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Lossless were only recently added.
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post #42 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Interesting, does Dolby Lossless also include Dolby Digital Plus with MLP?
No -- I remember looking for that because it would have been really neat. DD is there for backwards compatibility, DD+ can't be output over SPDIF currently.

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post #43 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
I know that was the one I was referring to. I guess I should have said in my original post that Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby Lossless were only recently added.
I'm shocked that dolby has no info in any of this though.
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post #44 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 03:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by psycho
I'm shocked that dolby has no info in any of this though.
Dolby takes a while to update its website and they should be putting up a press release in a week or two.
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post #45 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 04:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Richard Paul
Sam, both formats can decode MPEG-2 so this isn't that big of a deal. In fact if the studios wanted they could use MPEG-2 for HD-DVD. Also Blu-ray will offer dual layer discs next spring which is also when pre-recorded Blu-ray launches. I do not know what the studios will use but that will be an option. You seem to be trying to say the worst about Blu-ray and there is no need for that. If you want to argue for HD-DVD then I would recommend doing that.
What seems to occur here is that if you are even slightly cirtical of Blu-Ray (or
preceived as being), then you are labeled as AGAINST IT.

What I have done, and I think impartial readers will agree I have done
SCRUPULOUSLY, is simply to point out what is actually written on the blu-ray
site, by the people who are doing the work.

Frankly I find yours and at least one other person heres attempt to paint me as
a "bad man" by simply pointing out facts as patently offensive.

I want HDTV 'cause I'm nearsighted !
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post #46 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Frankly I find yours and at least one other person heres attempt to paint me as
a "bad man" by simply pointing out facts as patently offensive.
it is not the facts we are questioning or that you are a bad man. it is your interpretation of the facts. The fact that AVC HP and VC-1 is there you don't care, but because they say MPEG-2 and using it to compare to DVD you think it means that BR will only use MPEG-2

It is like the argument I saw some time ago from some others
"If the studio uses MPEG-2 at 12 Mbps it will look worst then MPEG-4 at 15 Mbps on HD-DVD."

even though factually true, it is 100% missleading because there is nothing stopping the studio from producing MPEG-4 at 15 Mbps on the BR disk
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post #47 of 52 Old 03-16-2005, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by samiam95124
What seems to occur here is that if you are even slightly cirtical of Blu-Ray (or preceived as being), then you are labeled as AGAINST IT.

What I have done, and I think impartial readers will agree I have done
SCRUPULOUSLY, is simply to point out what is actually written on the blu-ray site, by the people who are doing the work.

Frankly I find yours and at least one other person heres attempt to paint me as a "bad man" by simply pointing out facts as patently offensive.
You take the negative aspects you can find on Blu-ray's website and then try to prove that Blu-ray will be worse than HD-DVD. That is no different than taking a HD-DVD example on the HD-DVD Promotion Group website and then accusing HD-DVD of doing something wrong. As an example I will take a quote form this HD-DVD page and put it right here:
Quote:
A 30GB disc can deliver three 150-minute movies, offering the perfect way to store movies and their sequels on a single disc—with all the vibrancy of HD image quality.
Now the real fun begins as I warp there innocent bit of advertising into something proving the real intentions of the HD-DVD group ;) . Example: "This quote clearly shows that the HD-DVD group is thinking of releasing three movies on every HD-DVD disc." Now granted that is not what they meant at all but I have just shown what is being done to the Blu-ray website. Sam, you take the bits of advertising on Blu-ray's website and try to prove that Blu-ray will be worse than HD-DVD. That is not exactly fair and is basically just nit-picking small details that have nothing to do with the capabilities of the two formats. So to sum it up I would like to say that advertising information can be deceiving when put into the context of facts.

Sam, I am not trying to attack you but I know what you are doing and will defend Blu-ray because many of the facts you mention aren't really facts. You claim that being critical of Blu-ray will get you labeled as being "against it", but in your this thread's initial post you praised HD-DVD while critizing Blu-ray. Because of that I believe we all have good reason to believe that you are for HD-DVD and are against Blu-ray. Sam, I have no problem with debating the formats on their merits and if you wish to do that then I would be happy to.
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post #48 of 52 Old 03-17-2005, 03:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Health Nut
Anything mentioned about 1080p30? That would be reasonable and it is an ATSC format.
Health Nut: the petition you're proposing is very out of date and misleading. it doesn't mention Blu-Ray at all and uses the term HD-DVD incorrectly. it should say "next generation DVD" and use HD-DVD to mean one of the proposed standards. Also, CEMA has not been CEMA for quite awhile - it's now CEA. There are also quite a few technical details that are wrong or outdated.

Overall, it's a great idea, but in its current form would do more harm than good by confusing people and spreading misinformation. i know that's not the point, so i'm wondering if there is a planned update to the petition.

Thanks,
Jason
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post #49 of 52 Old 03-18-2005, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
This quote clearly shows that the HD-DVD group is thinking of releasing three movies on every HD-DVD disc.
I dunno, they were saying the same thing about (SD) DVD: "Imagine all three (now 4) Lethal Weapon movies on one disc". I can't remember which rag I read that quote in. But in the end, it's the publishing studio who actually decides how many flicks per individual disc. They'll likely realease trilogies and quadrilogies seperately or as a boxed set. Selling each film individually (as opposed to one disc) puts more cash in the studios' pockets.

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post #50 of 52 Old 03-19-2005, 07:55 AM
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This isnt really connected to the above debate but i thought this might be of interest.Will Panasonic blu-ray be able to read DVD-RAM? see here (i'm a new member so cant post links so put www before it)

panasonic.com/industrial...ure/future5.htm
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post #51 of 52 Old 03-19-2005, 10:05 AM
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The Panasonic DMR-E700BD, a consumer Blu-Ray deck which was launched in Japan last June, is capable of read/write to Blu-Ray, DVD-R, and DVD-RAM.

It is likely Panasonic will continue to release this capability in the next generation units.


- Don't trust sigs
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post #52 of 52 Old 03-20-2005, 06:12 AM
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Jason,

I couldn't agree more. Perhaps I should delete it from my sig file, since everything in the sig file has been granted for the most part. In fact, I'll do this now.

The petition is about 4 years old and outdated. Going to delete...
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