Will Blu Ray be compatible with DVI-HDCP? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 11:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry if this has been brought up too many times, but I'm a complete newbie to this stuff. I plan on buying a PS3 and of course I'd like to purchase Blu Ray movies once they start coming out. Now what I like to know is if Blu Ray movies will work if I used a HDMI to DVI cable for TV that only has DVI?

I haven't bought a TV yet, but my budget is limited(about $1000 max) and between a gigantic CRT or a LCD, I would prefer a LCD even if I have to sacrifice some picture quality. As long as the LCD still looks great, I'd be fine with it not on par with the CRTs.

So will DVI work, or should I just go with a CRT with HDMI?
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post #2 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 12:00 PM
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Plain vanilla DVI (without HDCP) would be on my short list of things to avoid if I were buying a new display. Although the output restrictions have not been published, rest assured that the only certain way to get "the whole picture" from the next gen format is to make sure you have a display that supports HDMI or DVI/HDCP. AACS supports what appears to be optional image constraint for non-protected pathways on a title-by-title basis, but that would leave you at the mercy of the studios. HDMI or DVI/HDCP is key, in my opinion.

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post #3 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 12:04 PM
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Alex is right, make sure your DVI has HDCP on it. You don't need HDMI for video. The HDCP 1.1 spec is backward compatible with all DVI devices which supported HDCP 1.0.

Now audio, on the other hand, not being passed over DVI cable, will likely need HDMI if you want lossless. If you are content with "mere" DTS and DD, you'll be fine with SPDIF.

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post #4 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by archibael
Now audio, on the other hand, not being passed over DVI cable, will likely need HDMI if you want lossless. If you are content with "mere" DTS and DD, you'll be fine with SPDIF.
You kind of lost me here. So I could either get surround sound through the optical out(from the PS3), or use HDMI to get sound and video through the TV. Is that what you're saying? Please bare with me here, I'm really don't know much about this stuff.
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post #5 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 12:27 PM
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Just think of it this way: highest quality anything has the potential to be prohibited over non-HDCP interfaces (both HDMI and DVI can be HDCP interfaces).

You can use DVI and SPDIF for video and audio, but you may not get the highest possible quality video and will not get the highest quality audio. If you have HDCP-compliant DVI connector, you will have the highest quality video, but since SPDIF (optical) is not protected by HDCP you'll get DVD-quality DTS or DD instead of the potential lossless audio you could get over HDMI audio.

Basically, HDMI provides a protected interface for sound and video, and DVI-HDCP only protects video. To get lossless audio, you'd need an HDMI cable to a compliant receiver, even if you are able to take advantage of highest-quality video with DVI-HDCP.

I know it's confusing.

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post #6 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 12:40 PM
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You don't need an HDMI input on the display in order to take advantage of HDMI audio in the future. HDMI receivers are going to have to provide an HDMI output anyway, which can be connected to the DVI input of the display with an appropriate adapter.

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post #7 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 02:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice Eater
You kind of lost me here. So I could either get surround sound through the optical out(from the PS3), or use HDMI to get sound and video through the TV. Is that what you're saying? Please bare with me here, I'm really don't know much about this stuff.
Just to clarify this for you, When people talk about passing audio over HDMI, they are generally talking about sending it to a receiver that accepts audio via HDMI. The number of such receivers is growing, and in the near future, HDMI connections will be as common as optical inputs on your receiver.

One of the things that a lot of A/V enthusiasts want is players with two HDMI outputs. That way they can use one to feed a picture to their TV and another to feed audio to their reciever.
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post #8 of 16 Old 10-07-2005, 03:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks a lot guys, you were really helpful.
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post #9 of 16 Old 10-08-2005, 07:55 AM
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"More Compatibility Seen Between HD Discs, Existing Audio Systems

By Joseph Palenchar -- TWICE, 9/26/2005

NEW YORK — Many consumers who already own an A/V receiver or preamp processor will have more options than previously thought to reproduce the highest bandwidth multichannel soundtracks of Blu-ray and HD DVD discs without junking their current components, Dolby Labs said.

Taking many in the industry by surprise, Dolby announced that consumers will be able to stream all of the discs' mandatory and optional high-bandwidth soundtracks through a receiver's single-cable HDMI 1.1 digital input from many of the new players. Initially, Dolby and receiver manufacturers believed that the only option for owners of existing receivers would be to connect multiple analog-audio cables between the receiver and player to hear the full potential of the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

HDMI 1.1's ability to connect players and receivers, said Dolby Labs technology strategy director Roger Dressler, means “one less impediment to buying the new players,†especially for consumers who have connected the analog outputs of SACD and DVD-Audio players into their receivers' multichannel analog inputs. Although the soundtrack-carrying HDMI outputs aren't mandatory on high-definition disc players, he noted, it's likely that the players will have them.

A single-HDMI connection will be possible, Dressler explained, because in all but perhaps the most basic players, all of the multichannel audio formats on a high-definition disc will be converted to PCM before exiting a player's HDMI output. HDMI 1.1's bandwidth is capable of simultaneously streaming an HD player's video and a high-bandwidth soundtrack, and HDMI 1.1 inputs appear on many newer receivers and processors, all of which are already equipped to process PCM, Dolby pointed out.

The optional and mandatory soundtrack formats of the high-definition disc formats were announced last year, but Dolby and other industry insiders didn't learn until much later that the high-definition players would likely spit out PCM.

PCM conversion will be needed in disc players that support the ability to play Internet-streamed audio content, such as director's comments, while discs are playing, Dressler said. To accomplish that, the players must mix a disc's soundtrack with the Internet stream, and to accomplish that, the players will convert the two streams to PCM. The players might also internally generate PCM sounds that would have to be mixed in as well, he said.

Although PCM conversion within a player isn't mandatory, it is “the most practical way that the next-generation disc players achieve these new interactive features.†Dolby said in a statement. “Content makers are keen for it [mixing]â€, Dressler added. “So we expect they will want mixing to happen.â€

Like most industry insiders, Dressler continued, "I don't think we understood that mixing would be a substitute for decoding downstream."

Even if mixing doesn't happen in a player, downstream decoding in an A/V receiver through a single-cable connection could be an option when new HDMI 1.3 specifications are finalized later this year. HDMI 1.3 connections could appear in first-generation Blu-ray and HD DVD players, marketers said. The 1.3 outputs would be able to stream the mandatory and optional soundtrack formats in their native form to future A/V receivers that would internally decode the high-bandwidth soundtracks.

The high-bandwidth formats include multichannel uncompressed PCM, lossless Dolby TrueHD, lossy Dolby Digital Plus, and lossy and lossless forms of DTS HD, formerly DTS++ Lossless.

Although Dolby will initially focus on selling its high-bandwidth decoders into high-definition players, DTS said it will aggressively target players and receivers. DTS cited the precedent of high-end A/V receivers to use 1394 digital inputs to accept DVD-Audio and SACD signals in the digital domain for processing. The receivers are marketed as offering superior decoding and processing.

“There could be different solutions to different-priced players,†Dressler added.

S/PDIF inadequate: HDMI in whatever flavor is the way to get high-definition players to spit out wideband soundtrack formats in digital form, Dolby said. That's because the bandwidths of the players' uncompressed-PCM formats, new lossless-compression formats and new lossy-compression formats exceed the capabilities of existing receivers' single-cable digital S/PDIF inputs, which max out at 1.5Mbps. The data rates of the new soundtrack formats can run as high as 27.6Mbps.

For receivers lacking HDMI inputs, consumers would have to hook up six to eight analog cables if their receiver is equipped with multiple analog inputs. If their receiver lacks HDMI inputs and multiple analog inputs, consumers could opt to use the receiver's S/PDIF input to stream a disc's lower bandwidth mandatory multichannel formats, which squeeze through S/PDIF inputs and are compatible with receivers' existing 5.1-, 6.1- and 7.1-channel decoders.

The mandatory formats for Blu-ray discs are the Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 legacy formats. For HD DVD, the mandatory formats are the new Dolby Digital Plus format up to 3Mbps and the new lossy HTS HD format. Dolby expects HD DVD players to incorporate built-in converters that will convert Dolby Digital Plus to 640kbps Dolby Digital 5.1 and lossy DTS HD to DTS 5.1 at up to 1.5Mbps.

Examples of the discs' S/PDIF-incompatible soundtracks include Blu-ray's optional six channels of uncompressed 192kHz/24-bit PCM at 27.6Mbps, HD DVD's two channels of 192/24 PCM at 9.2Mbps, and both discs' 7.1 channels of 96/24 PCM at 18.4Mbps, said Dolby.

The data rate of Dolby Digital Plus runs to 3Mbps on HD DVD and up to 1.7Mbps on Blu-ray discs in applications up to 7.1 channels.

Another Plus: Although the mandatory and optional high-bandwidth formats can deliver 7.1 discrete channels, owners of older HDMI-lacking receivers with 5.1-channel analog inputs won't be left out in the cold. Any lossy or losslessly compressed 7.1-channel soundtrack carries metadata allowing producers to control down mixes from seven channels to five for receivers with five analog inputs, said Dolby's Dressler. Uncompressed PCM tracks, however, lack metadata, so a player's down mixing isn't likely to “ensure a consistent result from player to player,†he noted"
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post #10 of 16 Old 10-08-2005, 08:52 AM
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For receivers lacking HDMI inputs, consumers would have to hook up six to eight analog cables if their receiver is equipped with multiple analog inputs. If their receiver lacks HDMI inputs and multiple analog inputs, consumers could opt to use the receiver's S/PDIF input to stream a disc's lower bandwidth mandatory multichannel formats, which squeeze through S/PDIF inputs and are compatible with receivers' existing 5.1-, 6.1- and 7.1-channel decoders.

The mandatory formats for Blu-ray discs are the Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS 5.1 legacy formats. For HD DVD, the mandatory formats are the new Dolby Digital Plus format up to 3Mbps and the new lossy HTS HD format. Dolby expects HD DVD players to incorporate built-in converters that will convert Dolby Digital Plus to 640kbps Dolby Digital 5.1 and lossy DTS HD to DTS 5.1 at up to 1.5Mbps.
So this is really the meat and potatos of the article for those with older receivers and pre/pros. We'll be able to get legacy 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks via Co-axial digital connections. I figured this would be the case, but it's nice to have it confirmed. Now, I can wait on a new pre/pro and see how this all shakes out.

Regards,
Dan
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post #11 of 16 Old 10-14-2005, 09:45 PM
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The trend is for Hollywood to not feel secure about every 18 months. By the time we get permission to watch the Blu-Ray titles that we purchase from retailers, they are liable to decide that HDMI is not sufficient and demand that a completely new interface is needed to stop pirates like you and me from stealing from them. No matter what you buy, Hollywood makes the call on what you do with their products. I wouldn't worry about it because they are going to screw everyone every few years or so. The good news is that no matter what Hollywood does, we will have the ability to use the internet to get the tools we need to protect our investments.
Besides, we will be able to sue the retailers when they tell their potential customers that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will output full bandwidth HD over component. I can't wait.
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post #12 of 16 Old 10-14-2005, 09:52 PM
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The trend is for Hollywood to not feel secure about every 18 months. By the time we get permission to watch the Blu-Ray titles that we purchase from retailers, they are liable to decide that HDMI is not sufficient and demand that a completely new interface is needed to stop pirates like you and me from stealing from them. No matter what you buy, Hollywood makes the call on what you do with their products. I wouldn't worry about it because they are going to screw everyone every few years or so. The good news is that no matter what Hollywood does, we will have the ability to use the internet to get the tools we need to protect our investments.
Besides, we will be able to sue the retailers when they tell their potential customers that Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will output full bandwidth HD over component. I can't wait.
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post #13 of 16 Old 10-15-2005, 02:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesE
For receivers lacking HDMI inputs, consumers would have to hook up six to eight analog cables if their receiver is equipped with multiple analog inputs.
what is the bitrate that will be passed through analog cables?

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post #14 of 16 Old 10-15-2005, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rubix
what is the bitrate that will be passed through analog cables?
Analog signals do not have bitrates :). The effective signal quality will of course depend on the DAC and associated electronics.

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post #15 of 16 Old 10-15-2005, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esox50
So this is really the meat and potatos of the article for those with older receivers and pre/pros. We'll be able to get legacy 5.1 Dolby Digital and DTS soundtracks via Co-axial digital connections. I figured this would be the case, but it's nice to have it confirmed. Now, I can wait on a new pre/pro and see how this all shakes out.

Regards,
Dan
I sort'a feel the same way and I don't really want a new pre unless I win 2-nite's Powerball drawing, of course! Then, maybe?!! The 640 & 1.5 audio would be plenty good enough enough for my audio equipment. I think I'd need better speakers to truly exploit audio above that level...? I'd proably crack the walls and knock my house off it's foundations with king-kong speakers and these new audio formats at full-strength! I better not win the lottery! I'll be damned if I do.... ;)

In real life I am Dot Mongur champion of the International Pacman Federation. I don't play the game, I operate it.....no dot is safe from me....

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post #16 of 16 Old 10-15-2005, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amillians
.... but that would leave you at the mercy of the studios. HDMI or DVI/HDCP is key, in my opinion.
Which is the BEST reason to avoid all this non-sense, help the terrorists kill HDTV fast, fast, very fast! :)

It is "WOW" TV!
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